FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

^ one day I will find a functional engine mod you have not researched!!!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

You could just run the LC-1 to the MS3 and use TunerStudio to display the gauge.

I have the AEM UEGO that has the gauge and the analog output connected to the MS3.

To me, it's confusing what Innovate Motorsports is doing. They had the LC-1 tied to the XD-16 but discontinued the gauge. Now they have the MTX-L but I don't think it's modular like the XD-16.

Bottom line is that if you are going to install a separate wideband sensor, then connect it to the MS3. I am still not sure how the A/F ratio is sent to the MS3 without it.

Highly unlikely

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

its funny.. I think from the inovative site it looks like the digital is cheaper than the analog... but I do like the blue digital read out

Inaccurate

Among wideband gauges, the industry standard is 0-5 volt operating range. This is what is sent to the gauge itself. However, the sensor output is not necessarily 0-5 and the output might not be linear either. It is the function of the controller (for example, the LC-1 unit) to translate the sensor output into an useable and linear voltage for the gauge.

For the MS, it would depend how the MS is constructed. Is the MS made to read the rare output from the Bosch sensor? It is possible seeing that the Bosch sensor is the industry standard. If this was the case, then no controller (like the LC-1) would be required.

On the other hand, if the MS is made to receive only 0-5 volts for an input, then it is necessary to have a controller and the MS could Not be connected straight to the sensor.

Another thing is that the sensor must have a heater circuit. The controller is responsible for controlling the heater within the sensor. So, this would mean that the MS would need to provide heater power and logic to the sensor if no controller was to be used.

And another thing that the controller does is to provide calibration for the ambient oxygen level. So, the MS would need to provide this function also if no controller was to be used.

I would recommend a phone call or email to MS or Rodney to clear this up if the MS instructions do not specify it.

pass427

ok guys just an update dealing with vendorship status if all goes well i have an official date for friday but pushing for tomorrow micheal is doing his best to get me setup officially thanks to all for interest and swoosh cant thank you enough ...

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

According to the following diagram, a narrowband o2 sensor can be directly connected to the MS3 or the analog output from a wideband controller.

Still not sure about using the stock sensors.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware.html#wiring

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

I dont have an independent X/H/ split LOL....its inside the muffler and i dont wanna drill that...i might put the sensor after the muffler, this way am monitoring both the banks, but if something goes wrong i wont know which bank

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Not a problem Rodney....am glad EVERYONE is benefiting from this ordeal...

Acurazine got a new vendor
You got couple sales
Users got the ECU for a good price

pass427

correct kn a narrow band can also be used ,but ideally a wideband is recommended for precise and fast feedback,ill get a list of different wideand ,we havent been able to control oem 02 but promising list of ecu buyers i maye finally be able to spend time and get this done once this groupbuy goes thru..

pass427

with more interest i know libert will love to hear this but i maybe going into a next adventure with the auto and see how well we get the ms3 to control auto trans thru a ms3 designed to control auto functions which im sure should enhance the torque converter upgrade libert made...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

I bet you will be able to get better prices than we can outside....if you can research and find the prices quick, i bet most of us will buy it from you...1 order with everything is better than ordering different components at different places...

This is what i wanted to hear....lemme know if you need a test car

pass427

will do swoosh , heres a list of wideands listed in ms3 you can find this under datalogs in calirated feilds, the ms3 does not carry a driver to control wideband sensor yitself so therefore the complete gauge and sensor is needed heres the list ,
innovative 0-5v[10:1 20:1]
ngk powerdex
dynojet linear
zeitronix
innovative1-2 v
tech edge linear
aem linear
aem non linear
innovative lc-1 [default in ms3]
a list of widebands in datalogs calculated feilds most of these if not all just require a wire to connect to ms3 and your set with aem white wire connects to ms3....

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

what does this mean exactly? is this something we can do ourselves after you develop it? cost?

rodney, swoosh, anyone who knows enough about this...hear me out for a second.

some of us that are buying this ECU do not know a whole lot about the in's and out's. some of us that are buying this ECU know/understand everything about it. i've read the ECU thread over and over and usually can wrap my head around important information...i just feel like there should be more clarification. maybe a WHAT THE CUSTOMER NEEDS TO DO LIST or something of that nature. bullet point style.

i want to know what OUR responsibility is as a customer concerning this ECU. i want to know exactly what i need to do once i recieve this. if i'm paying over $1k for something, i need to know 100% what i'm getting myself into.

-how to install it?
-will you send out complete directions?
-do i "need" to fine tune it as is?
-will you send out a map for MY car with MY modifications?
-where to get this bung/sensor combo for the exhaust?
-is there ANYTHING else i need to do?

sorry if these answers are obvious to some, i am just trying to do my homework and get everything lined up before i get this in.

maybe this should have been sent out in a PM but i figured the community would benefit from this as well. i just want a consolidated list of what our responsibilty is.

thanks.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'd say the customer should know the basics of engine management. If they don't, then depend on a shop to do everything for them and those people interact with J&R.

Installation for someone who has torn into their TL at all is really self explanatory. The ECU is accessed in the passenger footwell. Mounting the box and routing the wires it is your task to figure out. You will need basic knowledge of connecting consistent and switched +12V.

He's already said that base maps will be provided to get you in the ballpark. Your responsibility is to decide to go to a tuner, try using TunerStudio to self tune or tune yourself.

Rodney will have to answer the MY question depending on your setup.

The bung/combo question is easily answered by looking into wideband controllers. Controller is a bit confusing because it really isn't controlling anything, but there are many places on the internet to learn about the differences between narrow and wide band sensing.

The big question in my mind that was brought up by Inacc is what do the users do who have precats in place. I'm not sure where the factory ECU takes it's readings from.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^thanks KN_TL

i've def torn my TL apart numerous times so i don't forsee any issues with installation. maybe could you post a pic of your ECU install to give me a better idea of where to start?

i guess i'm just looking for a complete list from A to Z on what to do. sorry for the "spoon feed me" approach, i just feel like there are a lot of unanswered questions around this. but thank you for your post!

Inaccurate

The oem ecu uses the sensor located at the top of each oem precat. And by looking at the oem precats, there is no room available to weld a bung into the oem precat..... well, at least, not without a lot of effort and luck.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

all the widebands say to put the sensor at least 18" from where the exhaust starts.. so definetly cant do it in precats.. the jpipe looks to eb the best place for the sensor.. that or the test pest, race pipe, etc right after the jpipe

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

KN_TL: Very well written post bro....I have mentioned those things before but your post highlights the main points and very clear...

Sharky: Only 5-6 people have the ECU, out of which only 2-3 are willing to disclose the install and stuff and they are all FI people....no love for us NA people....My honest suggestion would be: Getting the ECU/Knock Monitor/Wideband sensor + controller.....and tacking this one thing at a time. Get the sensor (bung) + controller installed...then run the wire to the ECU. I think there will be another wire which goes to the IAT or the TB. Get those taken care of. Now connect the ECU and drive around, see if everything looks good. Finally install the ECU anywhere you want to

I wish i had all the info, I would readily give it out....am waiting on my ECU, if i get it before you do, trust me you will find all the info here...

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^thanks swoosh.

wideband sensor/controller is a combo deal yeah? and i need one anyway so i might as well just get it from rodney along with the ECU.

because at the start of this, i thought ALL i needed was the ECU and that everything else were "extras" for those that are FI or turbo or upgraded cams/whathaveyou... and now i find out those "extras" are actually necessary to run this thing.

hopefully somebody can compile an organized list before this takes off.

Inaccurate

But we are talking about people that still have the oem precats. The sensor MUST before (upstream of) encountering a cat of any kind.

I agree with you about the Bosch sensor being unable to handle the heat if it was installed next to the cylinder head port (aka, oem O2 location).

It *appears* that having PCD will be a prerequisite to running the JnR ecu *if* you wish to have the self-tuning option to function.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

@Sharky: actually all these are extra's and if you dont wanna get em its your call....but i highly suggest monitoring the AFR and Knock.

You can just get the ECU and call it a day....

Now why is knock monitor and AFR important to monitor/log ?
So that we can squeeze out every hp from the motor by tuning it to (how Inaccurate says) cutting edge

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^did you mean "having OEM cats" in the above bold?

i was wondering why the test cars all had OEM cats in place... ugh...now my head is spinning.

i need an asprin. i'm just gonna sit back for a while and see what develops here. seems there is a lot of what if's circling around this thing.

i don't mean to knock the product or rodney...i know this isn't a huge company, but rather just a guy with a dream making it reality. it just seems disorganized at this point.

hopefully everything gets cleared up.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Assuming you have PCD's, the sensor bung needs to be installed somewhere downstream where heat won't destroy the sensor itself. As Amir points out, if you have true duals, you have to make a choice. Or you could run something like this:

http://www.injectedperformance.com/h...trollerkit.htm

The only catch to the above it MS3 may not officially support it. Not having this setup, I haven't researched it at all.

Depending on the wideband being used, you'll need to follow the instructions provided to do the install.

For the ECU, there is a set of piggyback plugs. One set into the factory ecu and the plugs that came from the factory ECU into the piggyback plugs. There are two cables from that piggyback that plugs into the new ECU.

Connect up the power and the analog output from the wideband, find a place for the knock LED and that's it.

Probably the hardest part is finding where to mount it. I would suggest you all do as bmeyer and order the extended cables to install it under the drivers seat.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Inacc means that in order to install a wideband correctly, you will need PCD's installed.

Inaccurate

No sir. Not oem, but RV6. It *appears* that having RV6 PCD will be a prerequisite to running the JnR ecu *if* you wish to have the self-tuning option to function.

But now that I think about it more, I need to revise that statement again.

It *appears* that having RV6 PCD will be a prerequisite to running the JnR ecu. Because no matter what, a person MUST be able to monitor the AFR accurately (no stick a probe up your tail pipe stuff either).

If a person still had the oem precats, another option is to use a Data Logger to read the AFR from the oem ecu. But, this would not allow a person to use the self-tuning function of the JnR ecu.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

This is what happens when you give custom options....

I was telling Rodney post a price up say $2K for everything....use it or throw it....but he was like "no, I want to give users the options, if they already have something, or they dont want something why should they pay to buy it"....

So now some people say "you gotta get this" and some say "no thats not required" and other users get confused....

My point being you gotta know where you gotta get before you can pick the path....

1> I want 400+hp and will be going FI or doing cam/head work: Get everything on this GB...ECU+Knock Monitor+Injectors+PigTails+Fuel Pump+AFR gauges,sensor, basically EVERYTHING

2> I just wanna be 20hp quicker...Just get the ECU

3> I wanna tune this and learn more about tuning and squeeze every pony out....ECU+Knock Monitor+AFR

Thats all.

t0talacuratl

iTrader: (3)

THANK YOU! Now this made more sense than anything posted! Rodney answered my question before, but I think this makes perfect sense for everybody. I'm never going to go FI; been there, blow up my engine from previous car. Just not going there anymore. With all the mods I have, I just want to squeeze out a little more without going hard.

I'll take option 2 please!

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

given your post, swoosh...looks like option#2 or #3 is the answer. BUT i'll still need the wideband sensor, yes?

i'm only hesitant about getting #3 because i have no idea how much more power i could possible get out of it with a custom tune. if it's only a few HP then i don't see the point in spending $100's more dollars on extra parts, tune time, etc.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

am glad it helped...

where every i said AFR i meant Wideband Sensor + Controller + bung to be welded, like the whole deal....

if you Inaccurates findings, you will see he is able to squeeze out 10-15 odd hp just by monitoring/logging and hence tricking the stock ECU....

if you get the OPTION 3 and do a little more yourself, I bet you will be able to squeeze out a good 35hp out of this ECU....

as i said it all depends where you wanna go....you have a fully bolted on Type S MT (if am not mistaken), you putting down around 290-ish...whats your goal ? if its to just pass 300, get the ECU (OPTION 2) and your done....if you wanna be past 350, then you will have to do OPTION 3 and prolly follow it up with some cam work....you will be ~350

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

if that is the case (and i'd need some sort of confirmation/proof/graph), i would gladly get option#3...i want to be able to monitor everything and make sure numbers are appropriate for daily driving, safety, reliability, what have you...i want to be able get as much power as i can with this thing.

thanks, swoosh.

btw i was gonna send you a PM but for some reason PM's are down right now. can't even open my messages.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

Shark, fine tuning would add 3-5 more hp to what the ECU by itself would give... IF.. now this is the big IF.. you dont add anymore engine modifications...

So if you are all done modifications then you send the list to Rodney and he will have a pre-map on the JnR ECU for you and then it is just plug and play

now as KN said you should have some way to monitor what your engine is doing.. because remember you just added a change to your engine, however you should do this even without the JnR ECU

that said, you should be able to use the OEM 02 sensor to get some feedback, it will give you msgs if there are any errors but you wont have enough data to "fine tune"

Swoosh's option # 2 above is probably what you are looking for.. plug it in and you are good.. only thing to add is some way you can data log what your OEM O2 sensors in the Pre-Cats are doing

You don’t have to get the Knock Monitor or the Wideband, just figure out a way you can keep track of how your engine is doing

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

@Sharky: Not a problem....cant wait to get my ECU
@Feji: I am planning on option 1....have something up my sleeve

and about data logging....i completely agree....a lot of people use DashyDyno and are willing to swear by it LOL...

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^good stuff, FCVadi. and yeah i'm fully bolted so there is nothing left for me to do. being able to send rodney a list of my exact car/modifications in order to get the BEST map possible would be fantastic. i hope he can do this for me.

i need to figure out how to data log...i would like to know how everything is operating. but like you said, i don't want to have to spend a bunch of money on extras if it's not necessary.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

doing option #3.. just cant afford the turbo this year so dont want to get the other pieces just yet.. also going to buy the exhaust this spring too

for some reason the wife wants to go on vacation this summer.. WTF.. I told her we can fly anywhere in the turbo...

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

tehre are more than a few threads on data logging... I have them bookmarked somewhere.. let me find them and put them up on here

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Does anyone know how A/F is fed back to the MS3 without the use of a wideband controller???

The other thing is, why would anyone not want to monitor knock? That is THE most destructive thing you can do to your engine.

the fenda rolla

If i'm not mistaken, knock only occurs in a "too lean" or "too much timing" situation...well, we definitely won't worry about being too lean, just keep the timing reasonable and you *should* be good, right?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ I think rodney did mention that you will need a controller....lemme try to find that post....

one thing i hear the most on Azine is "does it gain me power ?" if not why buy it....

I would recommend the knock monitor and AFR monitor to EVERYONE but then again if your running short of 200 odd bucks, you can always add it later but dont skip out on it....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

With this ECU, you will have the ability to push those limits. Too rich robs power although it is the safe way to go. The whole idea is to push things past what is already there.

The factory monitors knock, why would you want to take it away?

If you are short a few hundred, still buy this and just don't install until you have everything needed in hand.

Why would anyone buy a performance mod with anything else in mind?

Inaccurate

If the oem ecu sees any knocking from the oem knock sensor, it will retard the timing for a long time (approx 15 minutes). After the 15 minutes, the ecu will just partially restore the timing back to what it was beforehand. Furthermore, I would be a bit paranoid by *if* the knock sensor is picking-up rattling from something and making the oem ecu think that it is detonation.

I would honestly much rather be in control of the timing (and I currently am) than allowing the oem ecu to manage (too conservatively) the timing.

If a person cares to see my logic along these lines, one can find it here (click here).