CL Platano

Now we all know that the Yanks staff is mediocre but the White Sox haven't been doing anything this year.I agree with everything except Garcia & Vazquez they both suck and give up homeruns like no tomorrow. As soon as they learn not to pitch to Konerko & Dye with men in scoring position and to pitch Crede away it will be a lovely day.

IlliNorge

I would take Jeter over anyone in the major leagues, period.

And we've already seen Mets vs. Yankees this year. How about Twins vs. Mets?

GIBSON6594

Well, Jeter is great, and that was a tough decision. I still take Reyes, the kid is a firecracker. He just starts things up. Puts great swings on the ball, double are triples for him. If he gets on it's an automatic double. Jeter is a basehit machine and a great leader/winner, but in terms of talent, i'm going with Reyes.

Yumcha

Okay...I suspect team loyalty and bias has something to do with this. Sure, you gave your justification, but Jeter is still my choice hands down. His leadership and defense should not be discounted. Sure, Reyes probably has a higher ceiling offensively...but, even that is arguable esp. when comparing against Jeter.

Now, perhaps the bigger question is, if we placed A-Wad back into SS, would you pick him or Reyes?

GIBSON6594

Def,

Reyes>Jeter>Arod

And BTW, Reyes is no defensive slouch, .973 fielding percentage compared to Jeter's .976. Sure, Jeter has the leadership qualities, but that's not Reyes' role. Glavine, Delgado, Julio Franco are there for leadership roles.

Chr8808

iTrader: (1)

Delgado vs. Giambi=Giambi when he gets healthy
Valentine vs. Cano= Cano (but barely)
Wright vs. Arod= Wright
Reyes vs. Jeter= Jeter
LoDuca vs. Posada=Posada
Beltran vs. Damon=Beltran
Floyd vs. Abreu=Abreu
Green vs. Matsui= Matsui
P vs. P= Yanks

Wang/Moose/Johnson/Wright vs. Pedro/Glavine/Duke/Trashsel.
I like the yanks starters (but im biased)

As per bullpen
Mo, Farnsworth, Proctor, vs. Wagner, Heilman, and Mota
We've seen what Wagner can do to the Yanks

Yumcha

Fixed.

GIBSON6594

No way, Delgado is flat out putting up better numbers this year. Delgado is leading Giambi in: Hits, Runs, Doubles, Triples, HR's, Avg.

How can you say you would rather have an AL pitcher at the plate than a NL pitcher?

Mo has had his share of blowups in the playoffs recently, he's not automatic anymore like 98. Still great, but not like he used to be, he's about on par with Wagner now.

And you can't tell me Farnsworth/Proctor>Heilman/Mota

Chr8808

iTrader: (1)

I dont watch the Mets much, but compaing Delgado/Giambi, their numbers are pretty identical even though Delgado has +60 ABs, +2runs/+2hrs/-2rbis, but the main thing is, the walks and how Giambi works the count (that adds so much to the Yankee lineup). Thats the biggest + factor for him. I think Delgado used to kil the Yankees too when he was in Tor.

And i didnt realize you were ranking them (pitchers for batting) . i'd go NL too.

Proctor is pretty much autoamtic nowadays. I think he will be Mo of 97 in this years playoffs. Cant really say anything for Heil/mota since i ahvent seen em

TLofNYC

Not for nothing, but I'm getting tired of hearing about Jeter's overblown leadership qualities. Last I checked he hasn't won a title in 5 years. And with the exeption of the 2000 WS, most of those titles were won off the leadership of Paul O'Niel, Tino and Bernie....not to mention the clutch pitching of Mariano. I know Jeter is a great player, but what makes him such a better leader than anyone else?

BTW - I would take Reyes over Jeter anyday....

CL Platano

Sometimes I think you are high! Jeter is a consistent hitter, fielder, and leader, Reyes has not even reached Jeter's level yet, I'm sure he'll be there someday but at this point in his very short career no way. Reyes has not put in time yet to be compared to a future hall of famer.

Delgado vs. Giambi=Toss up they are both clutch this year
Valentine vs. Cano= Cano
Wright vs. Arod= Pre allstar game Wright Post All star game A-Rod
Reyes vs. Jeter= Jeter
LoDuca vs. Posada=Posada
Beltran vs. Damon=Beltran
Floyd vs. Abreu=Abreu
Green vs. Matsui= Matsui is only DH so either Cabrera or Williams
P vs. P= Toss up neither staff is all that

CL Platano

How many titles has Reyes won? What has he done yet?

IlliNorge

Here's what I know about Jeter when the Twins play the Yankees: When he grounds a single up the middle or through the hole to right, he seems to come around to score EVERY time. When a grounder is hit anywhere near short in a close game, he makes the play EVERY time. When he goes 0-for-4, the Twins win.

ccannizz11

There was an article in Sports Illustrated a couple few years ago (while Tino was with the cardinals)... It was an interview with the four remaining yankees from the title years (Posada, Mariano, Bernie, and Jeter). In that article, each one of the other three acknowledged and praised the leadership (mostly by example) of Jeter. And I'll take their word over yours any day.

Yumcha

Hmmm...perhaps. But, it's also highly attributed to how A-Wad probably grounded into 4 DPs in the game too.

GIBSON6594

Dude, what are you talking about????

So by your logic, you would rather have Luis Gonzalez in right field than Abreu because Gonzo has accomplished more in his career? Of course Reyes has done as much as Reyes yet, he is 22 friggen years old.

Reyes is having a better offensive year than Jeter is, there is much more to offense than just hits. Reyes is besting Jeter in Runs, Triples, SB's, and HR's. He's a leadoff hitter so RBI #'s are gonna always be low. And Reyes strikes out less.

Reyes is just as consistant of a fielder as Jeter without being a showoff....coughJetercough. Jeters FP is .976, Reyes is .973, Jeter has made 13 errors this year, Reyes has made 15. Pretty close IMO...

I'll give Jeter his leadership qualities, but again, that isn't Reyes' role. The Mets have other players for leadership. Who are the other leaders on the Yanks? Arod? Sheffield? Once Bernie is gone you have a ship full have rats.

You guys put Jeter on such a pedistal, he's a great ballplayer, but he's not the greatest player of all time.

And please go back and re-read about my pitching choices and why I chose them.

TLofNYC

By me saying I would rather have Reyes over Jeter doesn't mean I'm saying he is a better leader. I would rather have Reyes because he is one of the most versitle players in the game.....

Like I said.....those titles were won by Tino, Bernie, Paul, Mariano....Jeter walked into a great situation....He is a great player, but my question is what makes him the greatest leader in the game? And if titles equals leadership, than who was Jeter leading if everyone on those teams had a fist full of rings.....wouldn't they all be leaders too??

GIBSON6594

That's another thing...


CHAMPIONSHIPS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A GREAT PLAYER...

especially in a sport like baseball.

And you wanna know what Reyes has done in his short career. He is gonna shatter the Mets record for OPS. And he could break the Mets SB record this year if he picks the pace slightly

He is on pace to hit 20 doubles, 20 triples, and 20 HR's. Who was the last player in the NL to do that?

A guy by the name of Willie Mays

And Reyes would be the youngest player in history to do it.

GIBSON6594

PS...I love these arguments

ccannizz11

First of all, triples and homers are factored into a statistic called Slugging percentage. There is a stat called OPS, which is takes into account both on base percentage and slugging percentage for the specific purpose of giving a more comprehensive idea a players offensive ability. Jeter's OPS = .911; Reyes OPS = .846. Given that Stolen Bases rely more on management style than offensive production by the player, and Runs are not really in that players control, I'd say Jeter is having a better offensive year, along with a batting average 47 points higher than Reyes.


and this is just funny

TLofNYC

me 2

CL Platano

Seriously I :surrender ..neither one of them are making sense. I'm not a Mets fan but I do wish them well which I've said tons of times but to compare Reyes to Jeter is not logical.

GIBSON6594

Jeter's avg are a factor of how many hits he has, I gave Jeter credit for having more singles. Never said Reyes has more singles. Jeter also walks more, never said Reyes did, those are the reasons his slug % and obp are higher and the reason his ops is higher. I'll say it again, there is more to offense than hits.

SB's are not mangment style with a player like Reyes, he has a green light to steal when he wants to. It's all on him.

And runs are a factor of getting on base and smart baserunning.

It's not a blowout by any means...like I said, Jeter is great. But Jeter get single and an occasional double, and thats all he does. Reyes is a lot more diverse and can get a lot more done.

You still don't want to believeme? Check out both Yahoo and ESPN's player rankings for SS, both of them put Reyes above Jeter.

For the showoff comment, go back and think about Jeter when he first came into the league, I've never seen a player take as many dives as he did on routine ground balls. He has calmed down now with age, but it was rediculus when he was young.

TLofNYC

I don't put much stock into what ESPN thinks. According to them Jeter's such a great leader he should be running the country......they also want you to belive that Liriano is the greatest pitcher to ever put on a pair of cleats..

GIBSON6594

Come on, don't back out a fall onto your "we are the Yankees, we don't have to compare ourselves to anyone" motiff.

It's a baseball argument, try not to get so serious

TLofNYC

....if you want me and you can still argue over who our favorite Met is...

GIBSON6594

Endy Chavez

TLofNYC

Michael Tucker.......

GIBSON6594

Touche

ccannizz11

who decides who gets the green light? Funny, I thought it was the manager. And Torre has never really been that kind of manager, even with Soriano, Torre kept him in check. very situational strategy with steals (usually).


Runs depend more on your teammates than on the player running the bases. And for most of the year the Mets offense as a whole has been superior. I don't think anyone can use the number of runs as an accurate indicator of how smart someone is at running the bases. Furthermore, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone that is significantly smarter at baserunning than Jeter (or maybe even Reyes for that matter).



Sorry, don't remember that.

Anyway, I think Reyes has a little more power and is a little faster than Jeter. But I'll take everything else Jeter does plus the intangibles over Reyes for now.

Phesto

Alfonzo Soriano is one SB away from becoming the 4th player all time to reach the ultimate power and speed plateau.....40 homeruns and 40 stolenbases for a season.Previous member are in order Jose Canseco,Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez.

GIBSON6594

Come on man, you are just arguing semantics with me now

Of course the manager gives the green light to players, but he doesn't just give it to anyone. He gives to the players he feels don't need to be told when it is or isn't safe when to go. Making Reyes soley responsoble for the bases he steals, or a least a majority of them. And btw, IMO, Torre absolute blows as a manager. I could have managed that talent to the playoffs every year. He makes terrible decisions, it's the amazing talent that comes through for him that makes him look good.

If runs dpends so much on the teamates, why does Grady Sizmore lead the majors in runs? And why are Pujols, Utley, Soriano, Hanley Ramirez in the top 10 in runs in the majors? Great players, but who is driving them in? There is nobody great in those lineups besides Howard, Cabrera and Hafner.

So Reyes is faster and has more power, those intagables along with $2 will get you on a subway. That's fine with me. The difference between Jeter and Reyes is Jeter gets things done while Reyes makes things happen. Nothing wrong with either, i'd just rather had Reyes.

TLofNYC

Honestly its hard to compare these two players....Reyes is a great leadoff man, Jeter is great as a number 2 hitter, even though he leads off most of the time....
....Can you imagine how many runs Reyes would have with Jeter batting behind him....that we be a killer 1-2 punch..

TLofNYC

...I don't count Jose, he was on roids when he did it. Thats what makes it even more special if Soriano does it.

ccannizz11

Put Jeter with a manager who makes him solely responsible for the bases he steals and then you can compare them in that category. And I suppose Phil Jackson is horrible too, damn all that talent, and all those horrible decisions that cost him those championships in those years he didn't win with it. :shakehead


I don't care what other stars they have in their lineups, it's the offense as whole that matters, and the phillies and indians are 3rd and 4th in runs for the whole team. Bottom line is that their team produces runs. Plus I wouldn't even call the 10 run difference between Jeter and Reyes a material one. Why does this even matter?


Power and speed aren't intangibles, but whatever. let me know when Reyes has his senior teammates pointing to him as a leader (by example) after winning a few championships.

Phesto

True.........what a year to have a career year though,you can hear the cash register "cha-ching"

Doom878

How do you know Bonds and even ARod weren't.

GIBSON6594

You know your arguments have become worthless when you start comparing other sports to eachother.

Ask yourself why the Indians are tops then get back to me, and consider the fact that the Indians are right above the Royals in the standings...

And dude, stop using the smiley in all your responses. Respond with something actual instead of a smiley to help pove your point. Your arguments are non sensical, and no amount of laughing smiley's can help them.

It matters because stats matter, once you realize that your precious Jeter isn't a God you will be better off. Everyone fails to mention the error that cost the Yankes the game that he committed in Beckets phenominal performace in the Florida Series, people just let that slide. People let slide Jeter's pathic performance in the series vs. the Diamondbacks too. Jeter is not infalable, believe it or not there will be players better than him.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Joe Jackson himself can call Reyes a great leader, it won't factor into him being a better player. Jeter's Leadership skills + $2 will get you on a subway. How many worlds series have the Yanks won since Jeter has been the so called leader?

Don't blame Reyes for Torre being a horrible manager and not letting Jeter to steal bases. And even if he did give Jeter the green light, he would be embarrased compared to Reyes's baserunning ability (speed).


And one more thing, stop getting so stupidly serious, it's only baseball. Calm yourself down.

Chr8808

iTrader: (1)

Jeter always has the go from Torre. He doesnt hold him. Torre has been quoted as saying he "trusts him to make the right decision as to when he runs" Right decison being that he "knows he will make it safe"
And both Jeter and Reyes have about the same % of success when attempting steals (80%) which is very good. Its just Reyes attempts (and gets caught) 3 times as much

CL Platano

I dont think Jeter steals that much is because Abreu always gets him over anyway