View Poll Results: Is your team in cap hell?
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Hockey: News and Discussion Thread
Senior Moderator
I am #76,361,211,935
What do Billy Graham and the Toronto Maple Leafs have in common?
Both can get an arena of 25,000 people to jump to their feet and scream "JESUS CHRIST!!!"
Both can get an arena of 25,000 people to jump to their feet and scream "JESUS CHRIST!!!"
chips and smokes, lets go
Didn't see the Leafs game but not surprised they blew a 3-0 lead.
Anyone see James Neal's hit on Derek Dorsett? The aftermath wasn't pretty.
Anyone see James Neal's hit on Derek Dorsett? The aftermath wasn't pretty.
Senior Moderator
I honestly didn't think things could get worse than they were last year.
Holy christ.
Holy christ.
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Leafs...I really don't know how they let the worst team in the League come back from 3 goals.
Missing My CL-S
iTrader: (1)
Senior Moderator
The sizzle in the Steak
<--- Got tix to Kings vs Flames tomorrow.
With Smyth out of the lineup again...
...and memo to Kings captain Dustin Brown: The season began almost 2 months ago! Ya wanna start playing NHL hockey sometime soon? Maybe hit someone...or put the puck in the net every once in a while?
With Smyth out of the lineup again...
...and memo to Kings captain Dustin Brown: The season began almost 2 months ago! Ya wanna start playing NHL hockey sometime soon? Maybe hit someone...or put the puck in the net every once in a while?
Missing My CL-S
iTrader: (1)
Senior Moderator
<--- Got tix to Kings vs Flames tomorrow.
With Smyth out of the lineup again...
...and memo to Kings captain Dustin Brown: The season began almost 2 months ago! Ya wanna start playing NHL hockey sometime soon? Maybe hit someone...or put the puck in the net every once in a while?
With Smyth out of the lineup again...
...and memo to Kings captain Dustin Brown: The season began almost 2 months ago! Ya wanna start playing NHL hockey sometime soon? Maybe hit someone...or put the puck in the net every once in a while?
Phaneuf = most overrated NHL player...
Senior Moderator
Someone please tell me the little girl ended up with a stick.
chips and smokes, lets go
Your Toronto Maple Leafs: How Did We Get Here?
An anonymous comment over at my blog Bitter Leaf Fan raised the question of how exactly the Leafs arrived in their current mess.
There’s not a single cause or easy explantion.
This franchise has gone through three, maybe even four, different phases since 2000, however; with the exception of one small window, all of these phases have focused on the short-term, sacrificing picks and prospects for a supposed fix.
After the jump, a look at the Leafs' propensity to deal away the future and the pile of pocket lint, loose change and used gum wrappers they got in return.
Pre-Lockout
The Pat Quinn teams of the early 2000s were powerful clubs. Each made the playoffs and several flirted with 100 point seasons. They combined a nice mix of talent and flair (Sundin, Mogilny) with grit (Roberts, Tucker) and solid goaltending (Cujo, Belfour).
These teams were often legitimate threats to go deep in the post season and on more than one occasion it was widely thought they could challenge for a cup. As a result, these teams made a number of trades where the future was sacrificed for the present. There was a small window of success and the Leafs went for it, selling off the future in the hopes of a big pay-day.
In 2003, the Leafs trade Brad Boyes (2000 1st round pick), Alyn McCauley and a 1st round pick for Owen Nolan
In 2004, the Leafs trade two prospects, a 1st and 2nd round pick for Brian Leetch.
In addition to dealing away those three first round picks, the Leafs also had some bad luck when their 1999 first round selection (and WJC 1st team all-star) Luca Cereda had to hang up his skates due to health complications with his heart.
From 1999 to 2004, the Leafs emerged with just two first round draft picks: Carlo Colaiacovo and Alexander Steen. Both would later be traded to St. Louis for Lee Stempniak.
The Missing Years
John Ferguson Junior’s tenure was like a ship lost at sea…or maybe it was a ship that kept running into ice bergs…or a lost ship, on fire, that kept hitting ice bergs. Choose your own nautical disaster metaphor and, in keeping with JFJ’s reign of error, the more apocalyptic and dire your selection the more accurate it will be.
Ferguson was GM from the 2004 to 2007 drafts.
Out of those five drafts, he managed to hold on to his first round pick in just once – giving the franchise Jiri Tlusty and a whole lotta NSFW jokes.
Unable to shake-off the "win now!" edict from the MLSE board, in just two years Ferguson sacrificed two first, a second and a fourth round pick in an effort to shore-up the team’s goaltending. Some four years later, goaltending remains a position of weakness that hasn’t been adequately addressed.
JFJ's draft day magic:
The 2005 first round pick (Tukka Rask) dealt for Andrew Raycroft.
The 2006 first round pick was Jiri Tlusty.
The 2007 first round and second round picks (along with a 2009 4th) to San Jose for Vesa Toskala.
The 2008 second round pick to Phoenix for Yannic Perreault.
Draft Schmaft Redux?
In 2008, Cliff Fletcher was brought in to try to move out the NTCs/NMCs on the club and start the, ahem, rebuilding process.
Given the need to get more talent into the system, he made some, shall we say, curious moves:
A swap of first round picks, 2008 3rd round pick, 2009 2nd round pick for Luke Schenn
2008 3rd round pick for Jamal Mayers
2008 4th round pick to get rid of Bryan McCabe
2008 5th round pick for Ryan Hollwegg
2010 2nd round pick for Mikhail Grabovski
In fairness to Fletcher, he also acquired a small parcel of picks:
2008 2nd round pick and a 2009 5th round pick for Hal Gill
2008 3rd round pick for Chad Kilger
2008 5th round pick for Wade Belak
An Eye for Talent? Um. Not really...
If you’re going to trade away picks and prospects, the returning players better pan out.
Clearly that has not been the case for the Leafs.
By my math, the Leafs traded five first round and three second round picks for the following return:
69 games from Owen Nolan.
28 games of Brian Leetch.
91 games (and 268 goals against) of Andrew Raycroft (plus a multi-year buyout)
17 games of Yanic Perreault
127 games (and counting) from Vesa Toskala
Stop and marvel at that return.
Five first and three third round picks for 332 games played (plus Toskala's starts until the end of the season).
I'll spare the Leaf defenders from doing the math - Brad Boyes, one of the former first rounders traded away, has played 347 NHL games, 15 more than this motley collection managed for the Leafs.
What's worse is that every single one of these players left the Leafs without a single asset coming back in return.
I'll wait while you drink it all in.
I don’t know about you, but I don't think there’s an adjective that can adequately summarize this. One could argue that only Bernie Madoff has done a worse job of asset management - and even that might be a stretch.
Making Mistakes Beyond the Draft
Even more painfully, that poor return only reflects the draft side of the equation.
The Leafs have not excelled in the free agency department (Blake, Finger), have made poor decisions in awarding NMCs and NTCs, and have made a series of poor decisions on talent retention – signing McCabe, Tucker and others to long-term deals rather than trading them at peak value. But I’ll save that rant/analysis for another day…
For now, in a nutshell, this is a good first step toward building a franchise that’s on target for a 50 point season and has limited options at hand.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-leafs-how-did
An anonymous comment over at my blog Bitter Leaf Fan raised the question of how exactly the Leafs arrived in their current mess.
There’s not a single cause or easy explantion.
This franchise has gone through three, maybe even four, different phases since 2000, however; with the exception of one small window, all of these phases have focused on the short-term, sacrificing picks and prospects for a supposed fix.
After the jump, a look at the Leafs' propensity to deal away the future and the pile of pocket lint, loose change and used gum wrappers they got in return.
Pre-Lockout
The Pat Quinn teams of the early 2000s were powerful clubs. Each made the playoffs and several flirted with 100 point seasons. They combined a nice mix of talent and flair (Sundin, Mogilny) with grit (Roberts, Tucker) and solid goaltending (Cujo, Belfour).
These teams were often legitimate threats to go deep in the post season and on more than one occasion it was widely thought they could challenge for a cup. As a result, these teams made a number of trades where the future was sacrificed for the present. There was a small window of success and the Leafs went for it, selling off the future in the hopes of a big pay-day.
In 2003, the Leafs trade Brad Boyes (2000 1st round pick), Alyn McCauley and a 1st round pick for Owen Nolan
In 2004, the Leafs trade two prospects, a 1st and 2nd round pick for Brian Leetch.
In addition to dealing away those three first round picks, the Leafs also had some bad luck when their 1999 first round selection (and WJC 1st team all-star) Luca Cereda had to hang up his skates due to health complications with his heart.
From 1999 to 2004, the Leafs emerged with just two first round draft picks: Carlo Colaiacovo and Alexander Steen. Both would later be traded to St. Louis for Lee Stempniak.
The Missing Years
John Ferguson Junior’s tenure was like a ship lost at sea…or maybe it was a ship that kept running into ice bergs…or a lost ship, on fire, that kept hitting ice bergs. Choose your own nautical disaster metaphor and, in keeping with JFJ’s reign of error, the more apocalyptic and dire your selection the more accurate it will be.
Ferguson was GM from the 2004 to 2007 drafts.
Out of those five drafts, he managed to hold on to his first round pick in just once – giving the franchise Jiri Tlusty and a whole lotta NSFW jokes.
Unable to shake-off the "win now!" edict from the MLSE board, in just two years Ferguson sacrificed two first, a second and a fourth round pick in an effort to shore-up the team’s goaltending. Some four years later, goaltending remains a position of weakness that hasn’t been adequately addressed.
JFJ's draft day magic:
The 2005 first round pick (Tukka Rask) dealt for Andrew Raycroft.
The 2006 first round pick was Jiri Tlusty.
The 2007 first round and second round picks (along with a 2009 4th) to San Jose for Vesa Toskala.
The 2008 second round pick to Phoenix for Yannic Perreault.
Draft Schmaft Redux?
In 2008, Cliff Fletcher was brought in to try to move out the NTCs/NMCs on the club and start the, ahem, rebuilding process.
Given the need to get more talent into the system, he made some, shall we say, curious moves:
A swap of first round picks, 2008 3rd round pick, 2009 2nd round pick for Luke Schenn
2008 3rd round pick for Jamal Mayers
2008 4th round pick to get rid of Bryan McCabe
2008 5th round pick for Ryan Hollwegg
2010 2nd round pick for Mikhail Grabovski
In fairness to Fletcher, he also acquired a small parcel of picks:
2008 2nd round pick and a 2009 5th round pick for Hal Gill
2008 3rd round pick for Chad Kilger
2008 5th round pick for Wade Belak
An Eye for Talent? Um. Not really...
If you’re going to trade away picks and prospects, the returning players better pan out.
Clearly that has not been the case for the Leafs.
By my math, the Leafs traded five first round and three second round picks for the following return:
69 games from Owen Nolan.
28 games of Brian Leetch.
91 games (and 268 goals against) of Andrew Raycroft (plus a multi-year buyout)
17 games of Yanic Perreault
127 games (and counting) from Vesa Toskala
Stop and marvel at that return.
Five first and three third round picks for 332 games played (plus Toskala's starts until the end of the season).
I'll spare the Leaf defenders from doing the math - Brad Boyes, one of the former first rounders traded away, has played 347 NHL games, 15 more than this motley collection managed for the Leafs.
What's worse is that every single one of these players left the Leafs without a single asset coming back in return.
I'll wait while you drink it all in.
I don’t know about you, but I don't think there’s an adjective that can adequately summarize this. One could argue that only Bernie Madoff has done a worse job of asset management - and even that might be a stretch.
Making Mistakes Beyond the Draft
Even more painfully, that poor return only reflects the draft side of the equation.
The Leafs have not excelled in the free agency department (Blake, Finger), have made poor decisions in awarding NMCs and NTCs, and have made a series of poor decisions on talent retention – signing McCabe, Tucker and others to long-term deals rather than trading them at peak value. But I’ll save that rant/analysis for another day…
For now, in a nutshell, this is a good first step toward building a franchise that’s on target for a 50 point season and has limited options at hand.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-leafs-how-did
Senior Moderator
Excuse me while I go find a bridge or tall building to jump off.
And with the 1st overall at risk, things haven't been this bad since the 80's.
And with the 1st overall at risk, things haven't been this bad since the 80's.
chips and smokes, lets go
Really puts things into perspective. We`re a long way from getting out this mess. How many times are the Leafs going to keep making the same mistakes. Keep your draft picks for fucks sakes!
Senior Moderator
Wow...that's tough to be a Leafs' fan. BUT...perspective guys. I think the Chicago Blackhawks were arguably the worst-run franchise for years. They were able to turn it around.
It will take another 2-3 years (to get into somewhat respectable) but I think Toronto can turn it around if they draft smart. And keep in mind, the 1st round pick is not the end all pick. What makes the Detroits, Chicagos, and etc. successful is that alot of their later round picks are also good (e.g. Datsyuk, Keith, Bolland, Zetterberg, Ericsson, Byfuglien, Brouwer)...
So, here's hoping Toronto can draft smart on the upcoming draft even if they do not have a 1st pick.
It will take another 2-3 years (to get into somewhat respectable) but I think Toronto can turn it around if they draft smart. And keep in mind, the 1st round pick is not the end all pick. What makes the Detroits, Chicagos, and etc. successful is that alot of their later round picks are also good (e.g. Datsyuk, Keith, Bolland, Zetterberg, Ericsson, Byfuglien, Brouwer)...
So, here's hoping Toronto can draft smart on the upcoming draft even if they do not have a 1st pick.
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Seriously, you guys thought they would be the worst team in the League at the beginning of the year esp. with their signings and Kessel coming aboard? At worst, I thought they would've given up a 12th-15th overall pick to Boston.
chips and smokes, lets go
Great goal from the other night
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Senior Moderator
It wouldn't have been such a "bad" trade if Toronto wasn't so crappy this year...? Who knew they would be this bad...?
Seriously, you guys thought they would be the worst team in the League at the beginning of the year esp. with their signings and Kessel coming aboard? At worst, I thought they would've given up a 12th-15th overall pick to Boston.
Seriously, you guys thought they would be the worst team in the League at the beginning of the year esp. with their signings and Kessel coming aboard? At worst, I thought they would've given up a 12th-15th overall pick to Boston.
Either way, Kessel for 2 firsts was a bad idea which I've maintained from day 1. Its another rush job intended to circumvent re-building. An act we've seen over and over that has never worked. Leafs fans we ready to wait a few years for a winner. We knew what had to be done. But yet again the board somehow got their claws into Burke like they did with every other GM before him.
chips and smokes, lets go
Well we all bitch and complain when they lose so, LEAFS WIN, LEAFS WIN. Beating the first place in the East. Take that wstevens and Jupiter - if you ever come in here when it's not the playoffs. What a great win!
Are 20 wins out of the question this year? What do you think - over or under? I have hope that they can do it.
Are 20 wins out of the question this year? What do you think - over or under? I have hope that they can do it.
Senior Moderator
^ Nice win indeed against a top club by the Leafs...
Speaking of nice wins. Nice to see Da Hawks plow through Alberta and swat away both teams. And is it any coincidence that Chicago is undefeated since Captain Serious has come back from injury...?
I think not.
Speaking of nice wins. Nice to see Da Hawks plow through Alberta and swat away both teams. And is it any coincidence that Chicago is undefeated since Captain Serious has come back from injury...?
I think not.
Senior Moderator
Nice win? It was a shootout. Shouldn't even go under the W column.
And yes, they'll get to 20, barely.
And yes, they'll get to 20, barely.
Interesting. Interesting.
Senior Moderator
Nice game by Niemi!
chips and smokes, lets go