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08 NBA Playoff Thread

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Old 06-18-2008 | 11:03 AM
  #1041  
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Originally Posted by the_Osk
AHEM.

LIKE I SAID.

I refuse to pull any punches or sugar coat anything. ANYONE who says that kobe is "clearly" the best player in the league (let alone, the best of his generation), is most likely mentally retarded.

don't even bother writing back. get back to me when he wins ONE finals mvp (btw, shaq has 3, and jordan has 6). Kobe might be the best hotdog in the league, but he's far from being the best player.
like I've been saying all along... top 5, Maybe.

before anyone foolishly tries to deny this, please do yourself a favor and post for us kobe's stats in all of the finals series'. overwhelming, to say the least.

The difference this time around for Kobe? He didn't have Shaq's coattail to pull on in the finals. Kobe rode Shaq's championships early on and then proceed to push him out of town so that he can prove to the world he could win a ring without Shaq on the team. LOL@ you kobe!
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:07 AM
  #1042  
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Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
cassell's a winner. he wanted to buy out his contract to play on a winning team. i'm pretty sure this matters to him.



Glad to see Cassell and KG win it. Congrats Celtics
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:20 AM
  #1043  
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Originally Posted by the_Osk
AHEM.

LIKE I SAID.

I refuse to pull any punches or sugar coat anything. ANYONE who says that kobe is "clearly" the best player in the league (let alone, the best of his generation), is most likely mentally retarded.

don't even bother writing back. get back to me when he wins ONE finals mvp (btw, shaq has 3, and jordan has 6). Kobe might be the best hotdog in the league, but he's far from being the best player.
like I've been saying all along... top 5, Maybe.

before anyone foolishly tries to deny this, please do yourself a favor and post for us kobe's stats in all of the finals series'. overwhelming, to say the least.

Kobe = Dominique Wilkens
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:26 AM
  #1044  
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ouch...
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:27 AM
  #1045  
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Jay Leno on the Laker's Monday night meaningless win: "Congratulations to the Lakers. They won last night. To be fair, I knew the Lakers were going to win because the refs told me before the game. But still, you know, that does not mar the victory. Did you see all the celebrities in the audience? My God, in fact there were so many stars there last night, today the Staples Center was officially declared a rehab facility.''

Old 06-18-2008 | 11:28 AM
  #1046  
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Happy for Kg, Pierce, and Allen. I think alot of credit should go to Eddie house and James Posey as well. Those are the sort of veteran journeymen that Lakers need.

The Lakers had a good, and really surprising year. They're a young, talented group that ran into the best defensive team in the league. Criticism of Kobe and the lack of production from the Laker bench is really a credit to that defense.

I expect the defensive shortcomings, rebounding, and toughness to be taken care of when Bynum comes back, and Ariza gets fully acclimated. Their contributions are invaluable. Specifically with Bynum, he was the defensive anchor that allowed the Lakers perimeter to get after it. You'll likely see a more aggresive defensive posture when he get back and the perimeter players are allowed to roam more freely.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:31 AM
  #1047  
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Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
i'm shocked that there are t-wolves fans that are NOT happy for him. i truly believe that he was loyal to the t-wolves despite the numerous times they fawked up the franchise and KG himself.
I don't know of one T-Wolves fan around here that is not happy for him.
Everyone here is well aware just how F'd our front office is and we all knew KG had NO chance to win a ring here. He definitely deserves this title, and everyone I know is very happy for KG.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:33 AM
  #1048  
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Originally Posted by bgsm1th
I don't know of one T-Wolves fan around here that is not happy for him.
Everyone here is well aware just how F'd our front office is and we all knew KG had NO chance to win a ring here. He definitely deserves this title, and everyone I know is very happy for KG.
on the radio this morning, there were a few t-wolves fans that called in or emailed saying KG didn't deserve a title with boston and/or weren't happy for him.

a small minority, it seems, but there are some idiots out there.

on a sidenote, i'm very happy for ray allen. he's my favorite of the big three, and he's probably the one that gets the least credit. and i'm glad he finished strongly after all the criticism that he received during the cleveland and atlanta series.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:35 AM
  #1049  
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Kobe is too easy to hate.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:36 AM
  #1050  
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KG gave a shoutout to all MN fans during his interview. If any T-Wolves fans aren't happy for him, then that is just being selfish.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:38 AM
  #1051  
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Originally Posted by dom
Kobe is too easy to hate.
Is it like that for LeBron? Or MJ, Magic, etc. back then...?

I'd say...no. If Kobe causes this much polarity amongst the NBA fans, there's gotta be a reason past the talent and supposed hoopla he gets from the press and Laker fans.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:42 AM
  #1052  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Is it like that for LeBron? Or MJ, Magic, etc. back then...?

I'd say...no. If Kobe causes this much polarity amongst the NBA fans, there's gotta be a reason past the talent and supposed hoopla he gets from the press and Laker fans.

I agree. I think he brings most of it on himself. I can't even watch the guy chew gum.

And IMO Lebron > Kobe
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:46 AM
  #1053  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Is it like that for LeBron? Or MJ, Magic, etc. back then...?

I'd say...no. If Kobe causes this much polarity amongst the NBA fans, there's gotta be a reason past the talent and supposed hoopla he gets from the press and Laker fans.
Let's see:

1. Accused of Rape
2. Pushed Shaq out of town
3. Bitched publicly about the GM and teammates
4. Whined and demanded a trade
5. Ball Hog
6. Bad attitude (yells at teammates during the game)
7. Wanna-be-MJ
8. Ridiculous mouth moving and tongue waving
9. Overall a b1tch of a person
10. Dirty elbows to defender's face after shot attempts
11. Plenty more.....will be back later
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:47 AM
  #1054  
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Originally Posted by dom
And IMO Lebron > Kobe
No brainer there.


Kobe = Dominique Wilkins...Or at best, he's the second coming of Pippen. Kobe needs another #1 to lean on in order to shine.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:49 AM
  #1055  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
No brainer there.


Depends on the brain.

I was reading SI last week and an unnamed GM was quoted as saying there is a significant gap between the two with Kobe being far better.

I don't see it.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dom
Depends on the brain.

I was reading SI last week and an unnamed GM was quoted as saying there is a significant gap between the two with Kobe being far better.

I don't see it.
Maybe the GM likes Wilkins too...?
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:53 AM
  #1057  
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Let's not compare Wilkins and Pipen to Kobe. Those two guys were actually likable.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:55 AM
  #1058  
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Originally Posted by dom
Depends on the brain.

I was reading SI last week and an unnamed GM was quoted as saying there is a significant gap between the two with Kobe being far better.

I don't see it.
Kobe's game is far more dynamic and more skilled. I think Lebron has to develop his game a bit more.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:56 AM
  #1059  
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
Kobe's game is far more dynamic and more skilled. I think Lebron has to develop his game a bit more.

Maybe. But when it comes times to put 11 other guys on your shoulders, it isn't even close IMO.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:58 AM
  #1060  
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Happy to see ex-Heaters House and PJ get their first and Posey #2. PJ is such a class act outside of the court. He'll fight you in the court though as Charlie Ward knows.
Old 06-18-2008 | 11:59 AM
  #1061  
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
Kobe's game is far more dynamic and more skilled. I think Lebron has to develop his game a bit more.
Kobe is more finesse than LeBron...different type of player. Personally, if you were to pick the best player in the league, I would go with neither. Dwight Howard FTW.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:03 PM
  #1062  
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Originally Posted by dom
Maybe. But when it comes times to put 11 other guys on your shoulders, it isn't even close IMO.
I think they are equal at that task; "not even close" goes a little far in wording. I think Lebron is a more physically imposing player, and that goes a long way towards doing what you want on the floor. Kobe still has quite a skill set to use in trying to carry his team.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:07 PM
  #1063  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Kobe is more finesse than LeBron...different type of player. Personally, if you were to pick the best player in the league, I would go with neither. Dwight Howard FTW.
Certainly on the first point. Give Lebron a consistent jumpshot, and a midrange jumper, and I'd give him the edge. There's no doubt his physique is one of his key assets- almost like Magic's impact when he first got to the League.

On the second, I'd like to see how the Superman does against Oden and Bynum next year. Their reach bothers alot of guys. Should be a good year for dominant center watching.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:12 PM
  #1064  
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Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer
Let's see:

1. Accused of Rape
2. Pushed Shaq out of town
3. Bitched publicly about the GM and teammates
4. Whined and demanded a trade
5. Ball Hog
6. Bad attitude (yells at teammates during the game)
7. Wanna-be-MJ
8. Ridiculous mouth moving and tongue waving
9. Overall a b1tch of a person
10. Dirty elbows to defender's face after shot attempts
11. Plenty more.....will be back later
just playing devil's advocate, but:

MJ:
1. also cheated on his wife.
2. well, he didn't have anyone with the star power of shaq to push out.
3. did bitch about krause. but that was for other reasons.
4. *pass*
5. ball hog (early years)
6. MJ used to yell at his teammates all the time. heck, he even punched steve kerr during a practice.
7. MJ was also accused of being a wannabe dr. j early on. (by the way, i see no problem with kobe being a wannabe MJ. obviously, he idolizes him. i don't see why that's such a bad thing.)
8. ridiculous sticking out of tongue.
9. overall, a bitch of a person.
10. MJ was known for "dirty" tactics too.
11. plenty more.

obviously, that's all in jest. but nobody's perfect.

i can't remember who it was, but someone brought up a really good point about MJ and kobe.

they would do everything they could to win, and kobe is regarded as being the only player to have the "killer instinct" that MJ had.

HOWEVER, the difference was that MJ did it stealth-like. he was likeable and charismatic, and even charming. kobe, on the other hand, appears as if it's a mission to take on the world every game, and it rubs people the wrong way.



and kobe is a far better player than nique and pippen.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:17 PM
  #1065  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Kobe is more finesse than LeBron...different type of player. Personally, if you were to pick the best player in the league, I would go with neither. Dwight Howard FTW.
The choke artist? That's a much worse pick than Kobe.

No, my top few would be, picked in this order -
1) KG - D wins championships....why not get the best defenseman in the league, with good overall offense, and a great leadership attitude?
2) Chris Paul - This guy is a beast offensively, can hold his own D wise, and is a good kid
3)Dwayne Wade - with the caveat that he's 100%, he's a great, unselfish player

Mostly, I'd look for guys who can contribute something to make a good WHOLE team, and who aren't assholes. Those guys will allow you to play team ball, which always trumps superstar ball.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:18 PM
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Funny how people say kobe isnt the best.. BUT they wouldnt let him touch the ball without a double/triple/quadruple team.. they guarded him more than lebron..

Kobe > everyone else..

but Celtics > Lakers in 2008
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Palayah8ta
Funny how people say kobe isnt the best.. BUT they wouldnt let him touch the ball without a double/triple/quadruple team.. they guarded him more than lebron..

Kobe > everyone else..

but Celtics > Lakers in 2008
Meh...here's a nice take on Kobe's performance in the Finals courtesy of Foxsports.com:

Michael Jordan never would have let this happen.
For that matter, neither would have Magic or Larry.


Kobe Bryant went into the NBA Finals with a chance to build on a legacy. He had started to make people forget about Kobe the Malcontent. This became an opportunity to further establish himself as one of the elite players to have ever played this game.

He was coming off league MVP honors and regarded by nearly all in NBA circles as paramount among the sport's stars. Better than LeBron James, Kevin Garnett or anyone else who can make a case as the best player on the planet nowadays.

But Bryant pulled a disappearing act when his young group of teammates needed him desperately.

In a pivotal game, the most crucial he's played in more than four years, Bryant was a complete non-factor and didn't manage a field goal for a stretch that lasted for what seemed like an eternity — for more than 22 minutes.

There were those that had begun to mention Kobe in the same breath as Michael after a spectacular regular season in which he led the Lakers to the top record in the West. Bryant already has three rings to his credit, but none of them came sans Shaq.

In his defense, Bryant doesn't have a sidekick like Scottie Pippen. He's got Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom, who aren't just physically soft — they're emotionally weak as well.

He's got a bench full of stiffs.

"I don't know," was all Bryant could say when asked about his team's prospects for the future.

What is clear is that M.J. never would have let anyone stomp all over him as Kobe allowed the Boston Celtics to do in the 131-92 rout in Game 6 on Tuesday night.

Kobe just watched as the Celtics pulled away to the most lopsided clinching game in NBA Finals history. He had no answer.

Do you really think that Paul Pierce would have been dancing on a chair with more than two minutes remaining in a game in which Jordan was on the opposing bench?

Bryant's talent is unquestionable. It may be on par with Jordan and superior to many of the other players who reside in the Hall of Fame, but he hasn't yet proven that he possesses all of the intangibles of guys like Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

Jordan, at 45 years of age, would have at least attempted to impose his will on the game.

Kobe had his moments in the series, but they were seemingly few and far between. There was never that eruption that everyone was waiting on.

It never came.

"We had a great game plan," said Celtics forward James Posey, who along with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen made Bryant look mortal through nearly the entire series. "We all took it upon ourselves as a challenge to stop him."


Bryant was unable to dominate by getting to the basket with his quickness and finishing with his strength. Instead, more often than not, he was forced to settle for jump shots.

But it appeared as though Tuesday night would finally be the breakout game for Bryant. He had 11 points a little more than midway through the first quarter on a flurry of long bombs from the perimeter.

However, he then became Bryant the Facilitator — only he forgot a little something called making his teammates better.

Bryant finished the first half without a single assist and the only points he scored after the first 5:30 came at the free-throw line — on a trio of Celtics technical fouls.

He finished the game with 22 points — just one more than Celtics rookie point guard Rajon Rondo — and a single assist.

Watching these Finals, Kobe sure didn't seem like the best player on the planet. Pierce looked far more the part.

Bryant only shot more than 50 percent from the field in one game in the series when he went 12-of-20 in Game 3 out in Los Angeles. He averaged 25.7 points, but that was misleading as he only shot 40.5 percent from the field and 32 percent from beyond the three-point arc.


"That was definitely the best defense I've faced in the playoffs," Bryant said.

You can make all the excuses you want for Bryant, but Jordan won multiple NBA titles with guys like Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc and Luc Longley.

Sure, the Lakers will be improved next year with the return of developing big man Andrew Bynum, but the bottom line is that as long as Bryant shows non-existent leadership abilities, Los Angeles won't be hanging another banner anytime soon.

"I'm upset more than anything," Bryant said. "Frustrated. But I'm proud. I'm proud of my guys. I'm proud of the effort that we gave. At the same time, understand that second place just means you're the first loser."

Bryant certainly lost more than anyone else in this series.

Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen walked away with their first championship.

Bryant walked away without even putting up a fight.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:52 PM
  #1068  
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And the key sentence was this: MJ [any of the Greats] would never have let this happen...at least they would've died trying. Kobe curled up in a fetal position and gave up.

That's the mark of the champ everyone says he is? Pathetic. If you want the accolades and want to be "the man"...well, gotta deliver and show it. And hey, before the apologists get all into the easy-to-pick-on-Kobe line on me, just remember: Kobe wanted this. He wants the spotlight...he wants to be the next Great.
Old 06-18-2008 | 12:56 PM
  #1069  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
And the key sentence was this: MJ [any of the Greats] would never have let this happen...at least they would've died trying. Kobe curled up in a fetal position and gave up.

That's the mark of the champ everyone says he is? Pathetic. If you want the accolades and want to be "the man"...well, gotta deliver and show it. And hey, before the apologists get all into the easy-to-pick-on-Kobe line on me, just remember: Kobe wanted this. He wants the spotlight...he wants to be the next Great.
I finally saw Kobe passing the ball during the 2nd half of game when they were down by 20-30pts. Pathetic.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:00 PM
  #1070  
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Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer
I finally saw Kobe passing the ball during the 2nd half of game when they were down by 20-30pts. Pathetic.


At least this guy had some decent go-to players to get involved early...but, too little too late.

Heck, even Iverson against the Lakers put up more fight when he single-handedly tried to will a series win in 2001. Sure, they ended up losing to Shaq's Lakers (and um, Kobe's. )...but, at least he literally went for the die-trying route.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:02 PM
  #1071  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
And the key sentence was this: MJ [any of the Greats] would never have let this happen...at least they would've died trying. Kobe curled up in a fetal position and gave up.

That's the mark of the champ everyone says he is? Pathetic. If you want the accolades and want to be "the man"...well, gotta deliver and show it. And hey, before the apologists get all into the easy-to-pick-on-Kobe line on me, just remember: Kobe wanted this. He wants the spotlight...he wants to be the next Great.

Jordan had pippen, Magic had worthy. Kobe is supposed to have Pau... how u guys rip so blindly on him is stupid. BUT he didnt perform upto his usual standard and im really hurt by it.. i look up to the guy a lot..
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:05 PM
  #1072  
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Originally Posted by Palayah8ta
Jordan had pippen, Magic had worthy. Kobe is supposed to have Pau... how u guys rip so blindly on him is stupid. BUT he didnt perform upto his usual standard and im really hurt by it.. i look up to the guy a lot..
Sorry, what?

Kobe has: Fisher, Gasol, Odom...that's 3 star-type cast members, right there.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:11 PM
  #1073  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Sorry, what?

Kobe has: Fisher, Gasol, Odom...that's 3 star-type cast members, right there.
which one showed up to game 6? None of them.. the Lakers lost badly not just Kobe.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:15 PM
  #1074  
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Originally Posted by Palayah8ta
which one showed up to game 6? None of them.. the Lakers lost badly not just Kobe.
And what does a Great player do when his cast doesn't show up...? He takes over.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:16 PM
  #1075  
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kobe's supporting cast was top heavy but quite good. there was no depth, but gasol and odom aren't chumps.

i know this will keep flaming the MJ comparisons, but MJ *willed* his teammates to win. he made his teammates play to a level that was expected of him. i don't agree with him punching steve kerr during a practice, but he wanted his guys to play at a high level in PRACTICES. and as proven in the flu game, he would have died to win a basketball game.

that is why MJ is God.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:18 PM
  #1076  
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And Jordan won Championships with the likes of Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson and Luc Longley.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:23 PM
  #1077  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
And Jordan won Championships with the likes of Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson and Luc Longley.
at least those guys are decent to good players.

look at some of the players he had to play with:
first 3peat:
cliff levingston
stacey king
scott williams
bobby hansen
trent tucker

second 3peat:
jud buechler
jason caffey
scott burrell
bill wennington
dickey simpkins

who tf are these guys? and yet, they all played roles in their title runs.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:24 PM
  #1078  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Sorry, what?

Kobe has: Fisher, Gasol, Odom...that's 3 star-type cast members, right there.
Not sure any of those guys are HOF. Maybe Gasol due to his World Championships experience, but not for anything in the NBA just yet. Fisher is an 30+ y/o PG, and that is saying alot. Odom is a great mismatch, but he's not Worthy, Kareem, Scott, Horace, Pippen. He might be Kukoc-like in terms of impact, but even Kukoc more strengths as a complete basketball player.

I wouldn't put this on Kobe's shoulder solely. The Celtic defense, the best team defense in the league, keyed on him. Its a credit to them that they respected him, and they admit as much. To Kobe's credit, he didn't shoot the ball well, but he didn't shoot them out of game like the old Kobe did.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:25 PM
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and for the record, i actually like kobe.

skills-wise, he's the closest to jordan i've seen, and apart from last night, he was the closest to MJ that i've seen with the "killer instinct."

i know the defense had a lot to do with his ineffectiveness, but the article yumchah posted was spot on. he still disappeared. and that's what is shocking to me.

however, i'm not ready to put kobe in the league with other great players that choked in the big moments (karl malone, ewing, etc) because i still think he has chances left to win a ring.
Old 06-18-2008 | 01:29 PM
  #1080  
JediMindTricks's Avatar
What Would Don Draper Do?
 
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Houston
Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
Not sure any of those guys are HOF. Maybe Gasol due to his World Championships experience, but not for anything in the NBA just yet. Fisher is an 30+ y/o PG, and that is saying alot. Odom is a great mismatch, but he's not Worthy, Kareem, Scott, Horace, Pippen. He might be Kukoc-like in terms of impact, but even Kukoc more strengths as a complete basketball player.
i agree that gasol and odom aren't HOF players, but i think odom is better than kukoc. toni was a better shooter and passer, but odom is still a very good passing SF and brings more offensively and defensively. i believe LO is a more complete player than toni.

Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
I wouldn't put this on Kobe's shoulder solely. The Celtic defense, the best team defense in the league, keyed on him. Its a credit to them that they respected him, and they admit as much. To Kobe's credit, he didn't shoot the ball well, but he didn't shoot them out of game like the old Kobe did.
i agree that the blame shouldn't be on kobe only. however, much more was expected of him. and as the leader of the team, unfortunately, he'll get the blame. and i'm sure he understands that


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