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I am still OK.... while i dont like it, it does not affect me too much paying $40 more a tank than before. Just eat 1 instant noodle a week, it will make up for it
Not only that, I always take my mom to her doc appt and she will never make it to the doc without puking with the way EV drives... If you have motion sickness, you will know what i mean.
I've taken lots of people who have motion sickness in my car, some bad enough that they can't ride in the backseat, none have commented about the issues you have with the regen lol. I'm not sure how/why you got what you did but it's really not the case in my car.
I've taken lots of people who have motion sickness in my car, some bad enough that they can't ride in the backseat, none have commented about the issues you have with the regen lol. I'm not sure how/why you got what you did but it's really not the case in my car.
People with motion sickness can barely ride in the back seat even in ICE cars and we all have different tolerance. I have gotten a lot better over the years I can do about 1 hour before i puke and my mom is about 10 mins. if i do a semi fast turn on the onramp even in my car, she will throw up in 5 if sitting in the back.
EV makes it worse because of the smoothness of the transmission and the way it accelerates. Yah it does not make sense to a lot of ppl, but smoothness makes motion sickness worse. Of course too bumpy also makes it worse. (like turbulence or boat ride)
If you add Brake Regen to the equation, it makes our brain literally feel like moving back and forth, especially in traffic.
So brake regen does not cause motion sickness, rather it makes it Xtimes worse, or getting sick faster.
I am OK now even with Brake Regen as long as i drive. But i still refuse to ride as passengers in an EV for anything over 20 mins still
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-05-2022 at 05:00 PM.
I get it and I have friends that are the same way in that they either have to drive or sit up front or they'll puke.
You know you don't have to drive an EV fast right? Can be as gentle as you want or you can give someone whiplash, it's really up to you as the driver. I'm also not sure how brake regen is any worse than, you know, brakes in that they do the same thing. Modern tuning for regen is really no different from braking manually. You can also modulate the regen effect just like you would with the brake pedal. It's not all on or all off, you can have anything in between otherwise I get that it would feel like someone slamming on the brakes all the time but, again, this is heavily driver dependent.
It's not only about 1000hp, it's about how it gets to the ground immediately. 1000hp in a car is nothing new these days but how it gets used is very new and different.
It's not only about 1000hp, it's about how it gets to the ground immediately. 1000hp in a car is nothing new these days but how it gets used is very new and different.
Yah i agree. But for that particular demo, when Modern ICE cars with similar 1000 hp passes the Tesla Plaid standing still at 70mph, It will not catch it like it.. in fact, i dont think it will ever catch it.
When the race starts at lower speed EV definitely has the huge advantage, but if the race starts at 70mph+, ICE cars with similar performance still have the advantage.
So what do we think about EV adoption today?
It's been a while... I though I might ask now.
Federal govt giving large taxes incentives for EV cars. Some states are not applying sales tax on EVs and offering 2000 - 4000$ in upfront rebates. Utility companies are also giving similar incentives to help household with level 2 charging capability and perform any infrastructure upgrades if needed.
Several auto manufactures have designed, produced and sold EV which are being driving on the road. I've seen more and more of the Tesla, Chevy Bolts, Ioniq's, ID4s, etc... even a couple of Toyota bz4x. Toyota seems to be openly dragging their feet but I'm also hearing that many other auto makers feel the same way which I can understand.
Most EV sales projection curve I've seen so far look something like this. I wonder at what point on the curve the grid would black out.
I still have a problem with the battery portion of EVs. I don't think we are quite there yet, because of the dirty process to mine the minerals needed. Those mostly come from China, and this EV push is a way of making to world dependent on China. Having driven a Polestar (and liking it a lot), I am still stuck on the battery composition issue. I guess I'll come around more once it's a more easily made product with more/better recycling of the batteries.
I'm not disagreeing that mining for materials is destructive, but look at the whole picture (literally):
Not included in that graphic is the 8 billion tons of coal and 4 billion tons of crude oil that's mined each year.
EV batteries typically have one or a combination of the following: lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, lead - the majority of which comes from Australia, Africa and South America. But I'm assuming you were referring to the assembled battery pack itself when referencing China.
Infrastructure is still a far cry from being there. Charging time is not where I'd like it to be. Cars themselves are still WAY to expensive.
1) Not everyone is charging their vehicle at the same time. Some states *cough*Texas*cough* may have issues though.
2) Tesla Superchargers have charged my 3 on road trips from <20% to 70-80% in 20-25 minutes. That's enough time for us to use the bathroom, walk the dog, grab a snack, and then keep moving down the highway. The biggest issue IMO is not charging time, it's everyone's ability to charge at home. Apartment complexes have been slow to respond and some houses require panel upgrades to support a 30,40,50 or 60A circuit.
3) See below:
Chevy Volt - $26k
Chevy Bolt - $27k
Nissan Leaf - $29k
Mini Cooper - $30k
Mazda MX30 - $33k
Hyundai Kona - $33k
Kia Nero - $39k
Audi Q4 ETron - $44k
Tesla Model 3 - $47k
Polestar 2 - $48k
These prices are before the tax credit (where applicable). And those EVs are all less than the average purchase price for a new vehicle in the US - $48,681 (in Nov '22, I couldn't find Dec/Jan data).
Last edited by civicdrivr; 02-25-2023 at 02:09 PM.
I'm not going to get into what people think of, infrastructure readiness, and charging time, because everyone has a different threshold for what's acceptable. To me these are currently not acceptable.
6 of those cars are what I consider to be reasonable in their price, and I'd venture a guess that these prices a for base models. Don't know anything else about them other than their price that you are showing. I know I like the ice CX-30 and Kona.
IMO, the "average" price for a vehicle is absurd at this point. I can only imagine the amount of repossession in this country.
I'm not disagreeing that mining for materials is destructive, but look at the whole picture (literally):
Not included in that graphic is the 8 billion tons of coal and 4 billion tons of crude oil that's mined each year.
EV batteries typically have one or a combination of the following: lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, lead - the majority of which comes from Australia, Africa and South America. But I'm assuming you were referring to the assembled battery pack itself when referencing China.
Actually, China is the top producer of lithium and those batteries, not battery assembly. My point is no matter where it come from, it is a dirty horrible process.
And China also dominates the rare earth metal market for production of magnets (used in motors).
To me it does seems like a rush move into EV market esp in US - currently relying heavily on foreign imports on magnets, battery composition elements, semiconductor chips (and even toilet paper). To change the reliance on these could NOT be an over night endeavor. If those are in short supply, no EV cars for certain as well as shortage in other industry sectors.
The electrical grid infrastructure here is super old and in much need to updating; imagine if every house hold turns on their 1200W toaster oven at the same time, the grid would fart pretty bad. Now image every home charging their EV at the same. I hope law makers are on top of these and have some sort of grand backup plan. I doubt they would they proactively think about this.
Anyways with gas prices tending to go higher and fluctuate with international tensions, driving the beloved ICE becomes a drain for $$$ for the driver.
Almost every car manufacture is giving some EV car as a model - even Acura with a potential ZDX for 2024. I'm pretty certain Honda is dragging their feet just like Toyota with the bz4x, but it is there as an option and that list is growing longer and longer - I just don't get it, but maybe that is to put eggs in every basket.
Actually, China is the top producer of lithium and those batteries, not battery assembly. My point is no matter where it come from, it is a dirty horrible process.
Ah, I see - Chinese companies account for the majority of the worlds lithium production, but China (the land) does not. Chinese companies do have a ton of ventures/business agreements all over the world, and the lithium produced is typically sent to China for refining/production of batteries:
My point regarding mining is this - no matter what you are digging for, it's a dirty, destructive process. But each EV typically offsets the emissions from the supply chain in 8-9k miles of operation. ICE vehicles do not offset, they simply add to it, mile after mile.
lol@ those complaining about lithium mining being dirty while being totally ok with the dirtiness of oil exploration, drilling, transport, refining, transport again, then distribute, all just to light it on fire to do it all again.
The electrical grid infrastructure here is super old and in much need to updating; imagine if every house hold turns on their 1200W toaster oven at the same time, the grid would fart pretty bad. Now image every home charging their EV at the same. I hope law makers are on top of these and have some sort of grand backup plan. I doubt they would they proactively think about this.
You know what's the most taxing to the grid? Climate change. Residential heating and cooling accounts for 16% of the US' energy consumption, and it goes up every year as winter storms and heat waves become more frequent and severe. EVs currently make up a whopping 1% of vehicles on the road in the US (~2.5m). It's projected that sales (which isn't total vehicles on the road) will reach 10% by 2025 and almost 30% by 2030. That's still a far cry from the 250m total vehicles on the road in this country. Adding a few million EVs per year over the next decade will not cause the grid in this country to fail. And where upgrades are needed, that's on electric companies to determine where upgrades need to be made. After they determine that, state regulators have to approve. Many electric companies are using historical weather observations for their planning. The problem is those historical weather conditions are quickly becoming obsolete, and no longer representative of future conditions as climate change accelerates. But guess what, upgrades to the grid have been occurring for decades:
The U.S. generated and consumed about 4.12 trillion kilowatt-hours of electricity in 2021, according to numbers compiled by the U.S. Energy Information Administration. In the early 1960s, we consumed less than a trillion. That's about a 500% increase since the early 1960s.
Many experts believe that a complete transition to electric vehicles will require as much as 1.25 trillion kilowatt-hours of electricity each year. Adding 30% more capacity in the next 20 years is thought to be feasible in light of past increases. Much of that increased capacity is expected to come from renewable sources, including solar and wind power.
You know what's the most taxing to the grid? Climate change. Residential heating and cooling accounts for 16% of the US' energy consumption, and it goes up every year as winter storms and heat waves become more frequent and severe. EVs currently make up a whopping 1% of vehicles on the road in the US (~2.5m). It's projected that sales (which isn't total vehicles on the road) will reach 10% by 2025 and almost 30% by 2030. That's still a far cry from the 250m total vehicles on the road in this country. Adding a few million EVs per year over the next decade will not cause the grid in this country to fail. And where upgrades are needed, that's on electric companies to determine where upgrades need to be made. After they determine that, state regulators have to approve. Many electric companies are using historical weather observations for their planning. The problem is those historical weather conditions are quickly becoming obsolete, and no longer representative of future conditions as climate change accelerates. But guess what, upgrades to the grid have been occurring for decades:
Most of the parts in all of your cars comes from China anyway. The car itself is just assembled here lol.
Knocking EV's because of Chinese battery manufacturing is like knocking ICE cars because of all the sensors being made in China, the steel made in China, the aluminum made in China, the electronics made in China, etc etc etc.
I really find that the biggest hindrance to EV adoption is rampant and widespread misinformation and/or ignorance. Almost all of the excuses reasons I hear about why an EV doesn't work are generally total bullshit. That's not to say that an EV will work in all scenarios, that's certainly not true, but in the vast majority of them, they work just fine.
People don't usually wait to replace their car until it's Found On the Road Dead, so people will see that ICE cars are dead, many won't buy a new ICE car and will drive their old car around a few more years while they wait for an EV. This leads to a decline in overall vehicle sales since due to battery supply constraints (which was one of the main points of Tesla's battery day in 2020), barring a miraculous technological breakthrough EVs production won't be able to scale as fast as the demand for EVs will.
So maybe Comfy is right in the sense that half of the market would want an EV by 2025 but there won't be enough batteries to make EVs to meet that demand by 2025. So people won't buy ICE vehicles while they wait, and that will be the critical time period where legacy auto will be fucked. Demand for their more profitable ICE vehicles will plummet and they won't be able to make enough of their less profitable EVs to stay afloat. If I were them I'd cut shareholder dividends and start saving money to try and make it through that perilous few years.
So ICE vehicle demand is dropping faster than the supply of EVs can be scaled up, so people will hold on to their older ICE vehicle and wait to get an EV and the companies that rely on ICE sales and cannot create a profitable EV are in trouble. Who could have seen that coming
People will still buy ICE cars and will do so for a long time. The prevalence of EV's these days is largely attributed to the wide variety of them relative to back in 2017 when even the Model 3 and Y did not exist.
So ICE vehicle demand is dropping faster than the supply of EVs can be scaled up, so people will hold on to their older ICE vehicle and wait to get an EV and the companies that rely on ICE sales and cannot create a profitable EV are in trouble. Who could have seen that coming
Someone is taking assumptions as facts and make a conclusion based on those "facts" and tell us that it is coming
Dafuq
and how many of those 14% is Tesla? How come he doesnt say #compeitioniscoming now? Now he wanna give credits to all the Chinese EVs?
and let's just pretend that in 2022 every dealer had shit load of cars to sell, there was no supply issues at all .....
Last edited by oonowindoo; 03-02-2023 at 05:47 PM.
I still have a problem with the battery portion of EVs. I don't think we are quite there yet, because of the dirty process to mine the minerals needed. Those mostly come from China, and this EV push is a way of making to world dependent on China. Having driven a Polestar (and liking it a lot), I am still stuck on the battery composition issue. I guess I'll come around more once it's a more easily made product with more/better recycling of the batteries.
there are many battery plants announced or under construction in the us. The Tesla Model 3/Y are the most American made vehicles on the road and they dominate ev sales WTF!? And this is all before the real benefits of the climate change bill that passed last year kick in
Legacy auto faces disaster in China with unsellable cars as pollution crunch looms
We are currently witnessing a major disruption in the world’s largest car market, that will have massive implications for the biggest carmakers as they seek to manage the switch from fossil fuel vehicles to electric.
Potentially millions of petrol and diesel cars may about to become unsellable in China as the country implements new vehicle emissions standards, and as EV demand booms. With China already experiencing a car inventory crisis, the next three months could spell disaster for some legacy auto companies.
Auto News recently reported that the China Auto Dealers Chamber of Commerce (CADCC) posted an article on March 23 on WeChat saying that dealers could be left with hundreds of thousands of non-compliant unsellable petrol and diesel vehicles once China’s new emission standard is implemented in July.
...
Inventory crunch will hit foreign legacy auto makers hard
The glut of hundreds of thousands of high polluting vehicles sitting in Chinese dealerships comes as Chinese consumers shift rapidly to EVs. Over 25% of all new cars sold in China in 2022 were electric.
According to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM), 27 million vehicles were sold in China in 2022, with almost 7 million being EVs. China accounted for around two-thirds of global sales of EVs last year.
Although the inventory crisis is playing out in China, counterintuitively Chinese car manufacturers may actually benefit while foreign legacy auto companies sales plummet in the world’s largest car market.
This is because electric vehicles make up a much higher proportion of the total production of Chinese automakers like BYD, while foreign companies like Toyota and Volkswagen are manufacturing and selling mostly petrol and diesel cars in China.
So it will be predominantly Japanese, German and US carmakers that are hit the hardest by the inventory crisis while Chinese EV companies as well as Tesla will continue to see demand grow.
This trend is already playing out in 2023.
In the first two months of the year, sales of Japanese brands in China have dropped by 40% year-on-year. German and Korean brands have dropped by around 20% while US brands have dropped 12.5%.
Meanwhile, Chinese brands have held steady with losses of ICE sales being offset with increased EV sales domestically.
Chinese market vehicle sales by brand country. Source. Marklines using CAAM data
And this trend is accelerating rapidly. EV output in China totalled 7 million units in 2022, an increase of 97% on 2021, while sales of electric vehicles rose by 93%.
The imminent implementation of new pollution standard will compound this trend even further.
Meanwhile, the two largest automakers in the world Volkswagen and Toyota aren’t even planning on launching mass produced EV models until 2027, which is still 4 years away.
Could the Chinese inventory crisis lead to a broader collapse?
The German and Japanese car giants are also two of the most indebted companies in the world, both with almost $US200 billion of debt and highly questionable valuations on their internal combustion factory assets.
An inventory glut of unsellable vehicles in the world’s largest car market is the last thing these companies need and with ICE vehicles sales plummeting, it’s difficult to see how they will survive.
In Japan, automotive manufacturers and the industries that support them are estimated to employ over 5 million workers. Around 8% of Japan’s workforce.
Because of Japan’s disastrous national hydrogen strategy (largely promoted by Toyota), the nation produces a trivial number of electric vehicles and as a result its addressable market in China is vanishing before its eyes.
With Chinese automakers largely shielded from the impacts of the new pollution standards because of their early move to EVs, it’s unlikely that the Chinese government will delay its implementation.
Its looking like the next few months will be crunch time for the legacy automotive industry.
I highly doubt it becuase anyone buying a car in 2034 (1 year before planet earth runs out of oil and fuel ) they will still have to supply fuel to cars, light and commercial aircraft, and everything else now still running on fuel.
I came across this....High Insurance Rates for Tesla (and probably other EVs)...
So not wearing blinders as so many people do, I like to get the facts and this after reading...
As of January 2023, Tesla offers insurance in Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Minnesota, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah and Virginia.
Why are insurance rates high for Tesla and likely other EVs as well. You got to love Musk's comment at the end of the first paragraph.
On June 4, 2017, the American Automobile Associationraised insurance rates for Tesla owners following a report from the Highway Loss Data Institute.The report concluded that the Model S crashes 46% more often and is 50% more expensive to repair than comparable vehicles.Similarly, the Model X was concluded to crash 41% more often and to be 89% more expensive to repair than similar vehicles. As a result, AAA raised insurance rates on Tesla cars by 30%.Tesla said that the analysis is "severely flawed and not reflective of reality", however, Tesla failed to provide any contradictory numbers. Shortly thereafter, Russ Rader, the spokesman for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, confirmed the AAA's analysis and that "Teslas get into a lot of crashes and are costly to repair afterward". The following year, an analysis of claim frequency and insurance cost data by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety conducted by financial research provider 24/7 Wall St. found that the Tesla Model S and Model X were the two most expensive vehicles to insure. Musk stated that he expects these insurance rates will greatly decrease once driver-assist and self-driving technology become commonplace.
Starting in October 2017, Tesla partnered with Liberty Mutual Insurance Companyto offer US customers an insurance plan designed specifically for Tesla cars.In August 2019, this partnership was superseded by a partnership with State National Insurance,but was initially only available to Tesla owners in California. In July 2020, Musk, relying on data obtained through the partnership with State National Insurance, announced that Tesla was creating its own "major" insurance company.Tesla claims the insurance uses individual vehicle data to offer personalized pricing.
As of January 2023, Tesla offers insurance in Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Minnesota, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah and Virginia.
So I called my insurance company. All with the same full coverage and this based on not driving to work (I'm retired) and low annual mileage. I'd hate to see the rate if I drove to work and drove 12,500 miles a year.
Tesla Model 3 Long Range: $1529. Acura RDX: $633 (my daily driver)
So not only can I drive an equivalent ICE car for over 8 years for free (the price difference between a Telsa 3 base to the ICE car where the savings can buy me gas) and the higher insurance rates where I can buy a lot of gas for those extra $896 every year for my daily driver. Glad I never jumped on the bandwagon.
Insurance rates are HIGHLY dependent on location and individual, often times more so than the car itself. I will say that FOR ME my former Tesla Model 3 Performance was LESS to insure than my Golf R by about $75/6mo. My Rivian R1T costs about the same (~$20 more per 6 mo) as my wife's Subaru Ascent. Musk's statement about FSD solving crash rates is bullshit. If anything, it causes more issues.
I'm not sure where you're getting your price info but the price difference between a Model 3 base and an equivalent gas car is close to zero. Often times the Tesla is cheaper. You can't get a Model 3 LR at this point but a base standard range is $40k before tax incentive. After tax incentive, it's $32500. That's about the price of a high end Honda Civic or mid range Accord. Even if you go high end, a M3P is $53k pre and $45.5k post incentive...that's for a car that's fast and AWD. A comparable BMW (M340) or Audi (S4) is $20k more than that while being faster and cheaper to maintain. There aren't any AWD cars that I can think of at lower tiers than that.
I can attest to that... my 2023 VW ID4 has an insurance premium of $1550 / yr and wife is driving that to work with a daily commute of 40 miles.
My 2017 RDX is roughly $1300 / yr to insure and that I drive to work which is 130 miles per trip.
Originally Posted by Tech
Why are insurance rates high for Tesla and likely other EVs as well. You got to love Musk's comment at the end of the first paragraph.
I'm not sure where you're getting your price info but the price difference between a Model 3 base and an equivalent gas car is close to zero. Often times the Tesla is cheaper.
Did you not read the whole article; obviously you didn't. I guess the AAA and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety must be wrong.
Oh really? I wonder why Tesla is getting into the insurance business in the states listed and all based on the high accident rates and high repair costs. Maybe Tesla drivers are not very good drivers. Being unbiased, I called my insurance company yesterday and got real numbers. Glad I didn't jump on that bandwagon, for many reasons.
EV owners are very much like Steady Eddie Lawson in racing. Ask him who is the fastest and he'll tell you.
You can't get a Model 3 LR at this point but a base standard range is $40k before tax incentive. After tax incentive, it's $32500. That's about the price of a high end Honda Civic or mid range Accord.
Well in my market, the out the door price difference between a base Tesla 3 and a base Toyota Camry is $20,538 and that is with the EV incentive included. Anyway, at $2400 a year in gas based on fuel economy and 12,500 miles per year, I could drive the Camry for 8.55 years till I reached the price of the Tesla 3. So free driving till then while the Tesla 3 would need to pay for charging for 8.55 years. Sounds like the Tesla 3 a bad deal to me.
But then I do not have an agenda to protect. Its very simple math.
I'm not sure where you're getting your price info.
These are the numbers you get by ACTUALLY going to the manufacturer's web site, not by guessing.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
The price difference between a Model 3 base and an equivalent gas car is close to zero. Often times the Tesla is cheaper. That's about the price of a high end Honda Civic or mid range Accord.
Everybody talks about it only costs them $2 to drive 60 miles, so what the issue is " they want a cheap car to drive". Well that takes into account everything including the vehicle cost, insurance, the electrician to wire up the 240V charging system in the garage, etc.
Lets look at a base Tesla 3 (2WD) which includes the home and mobile charging cables that you need and a base Toyota Camry LE (2WD). $42,285 vs $27,315 plus tax in each case for a difference of $16,167.60 plus tax. The Tesla 3 LR only because I'd want a car that has the range my ICE car has...so another added expense which would make the price difference even greater.
04-05-2022 | 04:07 PM
) they will still have to supply fuel to cars, light and commercial aircraft, and everything else now still running on fuel.