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You're new here, so I'm trying to be nice. Let me be more explicit - I don't want to see this thread devolve into a series of insults based on ridiculous stereotypes. The 'inside joke' was about a particular RDX owner who is well known for being a Tesla shill and who mucks up threads with inane commentary. If you are hell bent on being confrontational and defiant, I will have to end your time in this thread. Now am I clear?
You're new here, so I'm trying to be nice. Let me be more explicit - I don't want to see this thread devolve into a series of insults based on ridiculous stereotypes. The 'inside joke' was about a particular RDX owner who is well known for being a Tesla shill and who mucks up threads with inane commentary. If you are hell bent on being confrontational and defiant, I will have to end your time in this thread. Now am I clear?
Little over the top aren't ya? You come off as quite the hot head. This appears to be a forum run by a pack of good ole boys. Saying something they don't like or disagree with and your gone.
I'll move on. Thanks for the enjoyable time.
Little over the top aren't ya? You come off as quite the hot head. This appears to be a forum run by a pack of good ole boys. Saying something they don't like or disagree with and your gone.
I'll move on. Thanks for the enjoyable time.
Little over the top aren't ya? You come off as quite the hot head. This appears to be a forum run by a pack of good ole boys. Saying something they don't like or disagree with and your gone.
I'll move on. Thanks for the enjoyable time.
^ In current times you can buy it CPO for the price of a new one.
Originally Posted by 1Louder
I just priced out a BMW i4 e40 and nicely equipped it tops $67k. Sigh. If the incentive were still around that would help.
For the same money I could get an LS500 and roll the highway like Mad Max driving "the last of the V8's"
$67k for the e40? Damn, the M50 isn't that much more then... Also, the incentive is still around. I think the only makers not eligible are GM and Tesla.
^ In current times you can buy it CPO for the price of a new one.
$67k for the e40? Damn, the M50 isn't that much more then... Also, the incentive is still around. I think the only makers not eligible are GM and Tesla.
"My" version of the M50 was $73k, just equipping it with similar options. Not the difference one would think. Assuming a return to a more reasonable CPO market, I'd rather get the AWD M50 maybe as a 2-year old lease return.
I just priced out a BMW i4 e40 and nicely equipped it tops $67k. Sigh. If the incentive were still around that would help.
For the same money I could get an LS500 and roll the highway like Mad Max driving "the last of the V8's"
Unlike Tesla... BMW would usually provide some really good leasing programs for their i cars.... Just wait until the market normalize and you should be able to lease an BMW EV for "cheap"
Remember i3 had a MSRP of close to 50k... many leased 1 for 250 a month...
Tesla has good Resale value and shitty leasing programs, so it does not make sense to lease in most cases. BMW is usually the opposite..
Last edited by oonowindoo; 12-06-2021 at 01:08 PM.
"My" version of the M50 was $73k, just equipping it with similar options. Not the difference one would think. Assuming a return to a more reasonable CPO market, I'd rather get the AWD M50 maybe as a 2-year old lease return.
Same with me but with the $7500 rebate the car is pretty competitive with a Model 3 Performance. I'd definitely pay the couple grand more for the M50 over the Tesla...and I have a Tesla.
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
Unlike Tesla... BMW would usually provide some really good leasing programs for their i cars.... Just wait until the market normalize and you should be able to lease an BMW EV for "cheap"
Remember i3 had a MSRP of close to 50k... many leased 1 for 250 a month...
Tesla has good Resale value and shitty leasing programs, so it does not make sense to lease in most cases. BMW is usually the opposite..
They leased that well because no one wanted them otherwise. It remains to be seen how popular the i4 is before they start tossing money on the hood.
Same with me but with the $7500 rebate the car is pretty competitive with a Model 3 Performance. I'd definitely pay the couple grand more for the M50 over the Tesla...and I have a Tesla.
They leased that well because no one wanted them otherwise. It remains to be seen how popular the i4 is before they start tossing money on the hood.
To be honest, i have my doubt in how well BMW/Mercedes/Audi could sell 3/4 series EV at at full price $70k.
A 70k 4 series lease out at about $900+ a month now. $750-800 a month leasing in normal days. I just dont see many would choose it over Model 3, especially model 3P considering Model 3 is actually cheaper in most cases.
I know you will. But generally speaking, i dont see it. The brand recognition works both ways, Tesla is still at the top in the EV world.
I think BMW must provide some very very attractive leasing programs for their EVs to even have a chance to get some customers from Tesla.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 12-06-2021 at 01:24 PM.
Yeah but in a country that small they need what, a solid dozen chargers and they're good?
I kid, I kid.....
Kidding aside, I do think that the geographically smaller countries probably will hit higher rates sooner just because the charging network can be focused and more dense across the whole country.
nope and it would be even more painful for them to hear out of the 20% EV sold, only a small fraction is Tesla. In other word 4.6 or 4.7 out of 5 cars sold were NOT Tesla.
A while back I came across this Popular Science I kept for reasons I can't explain. Feb 1971 - the EV issue.
This is from page 3 below:
....a prototype electric seen in the cutaway drawing above and on our cover - will have a recommended top speed of 90 mph and the ability to reach 107 is brief bursts. And it will have a range of 300-500 miles! A recharge takes only 20 minutes. Can it be possible? It sounds too good to be true, but a combination of the latest developments in electric-vehicle technology promises a real breakthrough in performance.
So this article is either a gigantic fluff piece or it's evidence of how long this technology has been suppressed.
What's puzzling me is the range claim, and the 20 min recharge. Assuming there was some validity to the claims, seems like after 50 years we're not much better. We struggle to get cars with ranges that can even top 300 miles (let alone 300-500) and while I'm not an expert on super-fast charging most of the claims seem to be around "you can get an 80% charge in 40 min" or something like that. So I'm guessing in 71 this was complete and total BS. Pretty funny how immanent they made it sound. Not unlike some of the language we see today....
What's puzzling me is the range claim, and the 20 min recharge. Assuming there was some validity to the claims, seems like after 50 years we're not much better. We struggle to get cars with ranges that can even top 300 miles (let alone 300-500) and while I'm not an expert on super-fast charging most of the claims seem to be around "you can get an 80% charge in 40 min" or something like that. So I'm guessing in 71 this was complete and total BS. Pretty funny how immanent they made it sound. Not unlike some of the language we see today....
I think we are capable of making it happen as in making EV as efficient and easy to use as ICE cars. But like everything else, politics, personal interest among many many things are preventing us from advancing as fast as we could.
What's puzzling me is the range claim, and the 20 min recharge. Assuming there was some validity to the claims, seems like after 50 years we're not much better. We struggle to get cars with ranges that can even top 300 miles (let alone 300-500) and while I'm not an expert on super-fast charging most of the claims seem to be around "you can get an 80% charge in 40 min" or something like that. So I'm guessing in 71 this was complete and total BS. Pretty funny how immanent they made it sound. Not unlike some of the language we see today....
You can charge from 5% to 80% in like 20 minutes now with a 250kw charger.
In any case, this was probably all marketing bluster and nothing more than that. We barely have the battery tech now to get cars with that much range let alone 40 years ago. Though back then cars were much lighter because they would pancake in a crash and had none of the modern features.
With things like this, its very hard to predict. In fact, life in general, we don't know much about.
One thing we all have to worry about is climate change. However, in trying be earth conscious, it's going to conflict with a lot of peoples goals. In my opinion, I don't think Elon has the earth's best interest in mind, which is a selling point of EVs.
Without knowing account sheet for the cost of production for the EVs and the pollution output for producing electricity, its difficult to know how good EVs are for the planet. It's the 27th of December and we still haven't received any snow yet here in MO, which is a first.
I also think that Elon is setting a large trap for the other manufacturers to go in on EVs.
As stated above about Norway, I think that is a very enviable thing. But you have to look at why are they going electric:
1. Large tax incentives (they mention their sales tax is 25%, and that is not paid but they don't mention that unless the car is made in the country, an imported car have up to a 100% tax (see below)
2. Distances driven are not that far. Most people stay within the periphery of their domicile and place of work.
3. (The really big one) 96% of all electricity generated in Norway comes from hydro-electric, and not the type that uses dams. THIS is a big reason to move to electric cars.
Lastly, I did a calculation for an Audi A4, petrol, with a 190 HP engine brand new. To import it, with the car costing lets say $45K, the total cost to get it into the country would be $76K. (if you want, you'll have to dig up a lot of the car's data to fill in the blanks).
...Deloitte’s touchingly named “2022 Global Automotive Consumer Study” goes into granular detail about the buyer expectations that will drive the automotive market in the coming years. It’s all based on a survey of 26,000 consumers in 25 countries. R&T has been reliably informed one of those countries is the United States, which is still located in North America. The whole report is available at this link as a PDF.
Much of what Deloitte reports is unsurprising. People still vastly prefer personal vehicles over public transportation; are willing to embrace high technology as long as they don’t have to pay for it; that they still want to buy new vehicles in person and not over the internet; and that they’re fine with electric vehicles as long as they’re affordable and at least as good as those relying on internal combustion.
The big insights come with the subject of intentionality. That is what consumers expect to buy next. In the U.S. fully 69 percent of consumers expect their next vehicle to be powered by internal combustion. Another 22 percent will go for some sort of hybrid. But still, amid all this, only about five percent of Americans expect their next vehicle will be a fully-electric, battery-fueled machine.
“Buyers expect their vehicles to be affordable,” explains Ryan Robinson, Deloitte’s Automotive Research Leader. “Fully 74 percent of those intending to buy an electric expect their next vehicle to cost less than $50,000. With the average price of a new vehicle already approaching $40,000 that’s a very narrow band for electrics.”
Right now, many of the electrics on the market are what Robinson describes as “halo” products. That’s to say premium vehicles that attract attention and sell at high prices, but aren’t intended to sell in huge volumes to average buyers. Will there be affordable and attractive electrics? Good question.
Governments are driving forward with aggressive plans for converting the vehicle fleet to alternative fuels. What prominently emerges from the Deloitte report is that ambitions are one thing, and reality is something else.
Other countries are more eager for EVs. In South Korea, for example, 23 percent of buyers anticipate next buying an electric. In China it’s 17 percent. In almost all countries, hybrids and plug-in hybrids seem to be gaining traction as alternatives to pure ICEs.
...
No one said this change would occur overnight, but there is a lot of info missing from that data. How many people total were surveyed? Where in the US were they surveyed. If they asked more rural homes than city homes I'd expect the numbers to go larger to ICE choices. If they asked the midwest and south over the west coast Id largely expect the same. Was there an attempt to balance any of that that out?
And look at the market. We don't enough have choices yet. But that's coming.
I'm for sure using a hell of a lot more electrons with it being so cold out here than usual, probably double in fact. The range of the car absolutely plummets in the cold, it's like half of what it is in the summer when it's this bad outside. By "this bad" I mean that it was -17F air temp (-34F windchill) when I took the kiddo to daycare this morning. When the temps are in the upper 20's to 30's, the range is about 30% less than summer time which isn't great but also isn't horrible. I couldn't not have a gas car where I live for situations like this. It would be impossible to go on a long trip without one.
There are tons of reports from the MN and WI Tesla fbook group saying that their cars with heat pumps had the heat fail while driving because the heat pump can't keep up and errors out. That's downright dangerous when it's this cold outside. The only way to mitigate it is to warm the car up for 30 minutes or more before driving it, otherwise you could get stuck without heat when it's -10F outside. I haven't take my daughter in the Tesla while it was below +10F unless the trip was 5-10mins or less because of that. I'm not taking the chance of being stuck for a long drive without heat when it's this dangerous outside. I hope they come up with a fix quick because this is actually a dangerous safety issue. A number of people, myself included, have submitted a complaint to the NHTSA for this issue.
inb4 Stunna comes in here telling me how great the heat pump is and how wrong I am via a tweet from some Tesla stan.
I honestly have no idea about this. How do you warm up an EV?
You go into the app and turn on the climate system. This warms up the cabin and the battery/drive unit. It can also defrost the outside of the car if you select that option. I usually do this in the morning before I leave and the car is plugged into the wall so it uses wall power to heat rather than the battery. If I'm not at home then it obviously uses the battery.
How does it do this? Turns on the heat pump in most conditions that heats up the battery coolant and the cabin. If it's stupid cold out then it also turns on the resistive heater which is why the range is dogshit in the cold. When you've been driving the car for a while, it starts to harvest heat from the battery and the motors instead of trying to make its own like a gas car does. If you don't preheat the car, it will disable regen braking (battery too cold to accept a charge) and limit performance until the battery gets up to a certain temp. If you punch in a supercharger destination into the nav system, the car will automatically preheat the battery to the right temp to accept a fast charge when you arrive. If you don't do this, the charge rate is much slower because the battery isn't warm enough. This happens automatically if a charging stop is part of your route, the charge stop is automatically added if needed when you pick a destination on the nav system so you don't have to manually do anything for that either.
I'm for sure using a hell of a lot more electrons with it being so cold out here than usual, probably double in fact. The range of the car absolutely plummets in the cold, it's like half of what it is in the summer when it's this bad outside. By "this bad" I mean that it was -17F air temp (-34F windchill) when I took the kiddo to daycare this morning. When the temps are in the upper 20's to 30's, the range is about 30% less than summer time which isn't great but also isn't horrible. I couldn't not have a gas car where I live for situations like this. It would be impossible to go on a long trip without one.
There are tons of reports from the MN and WI Tesla fbook group saying that their cars with heat pumps had the heat fail while driving because the heat pump can't keep up and errors out. That's downright dangerous when it's this cold outside. The only way to mitigate it is to warm the car up for 30 minutes or more before driving it, otherwise you could get stuck without heat when it's -10F outside. I haven't take my daughter in the Tesla while it was below +10F unless the trip was 5-10mins or less because of that. I'm not taking the chance of being stuck for a long drive without heat when it's this dangerous outside. I hope they come up with a fix quick because this is actually a dangerous safety issue. A number of people, myself included, have submitted a complaint to the NHTSA for this issue.
inb4 Stunna comes in here telling me how great the heat pump is and how wrong I am via a tweet from some Tesla stan.
He will tell you that his scooter does not have this issue at -17F... he rides it all the time.
12-04-2021, 03:32 PM
peeps to argue the survey. 
