1Louder

I think that's minimizing a valid point though. In the Seattle/Puget Sound area it's not uncommon to drive 50-60 miles per day round trip to get to and from work. In fact that's common. That's 20-25% of most EVs total capacity. I personally would charge my EV every time it was below 50% for margin, but the overall point here is if you suddenly need your EV to go farther than the battery life, the remedy is night and day as we stand today. With my ICE, I stop by a gas station on my way to work. Done. With my out of range EV, I stay home, take a day of vacation, take an Uber, or whatever. But also, what happens if on a weekend if I suddenly need to make a 200 mile round trip and I only have 100 miles left and I don't have time to charge and there is no charger at my destination? Point is all these things make EVs less usable as we stand today, and at some point these impositions and limitations have to go away if there is to be broader acceptance.

Legend2TL

Tesla's drivetrains may have been designed to last a 1000000, but majority of early S's don't even make it to 60k miles.
They've had ALOT of teething problems with a variety of problems most notably electric motor and transmission bearing issues (sealed and non-sealed).

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/I...y-60-000-miles

However in general, EV's should be far more reliable/durable than ICE once technology is sorted out through CPI.

oonowindoo

WTF are you talking about? go read it again.

SamDoe1

While this is probably a pretty rare scenario, there are lots of options on how to mitigate. It just takes more planning than it would with a gas car. I don't know about you but I've really never had to take a 200 mile trip with zero notice. Also, there are lots of options to fast charge your car up to sufficient range to make the trip. Superchargers are pretty widely available and are only getting more plentiful. If I woke up tomorrow morning and said oh shit, I have to drive from home to Madison WI with zero notice and my car had 50 miles of range on it, I could easily do it. Swing down to the supercharger, juice from 5% to 80% in 20 mins, hit the road. Swing by the supercharger in Eau Claire WI or Tomah WI to boost it back up in another 20 min stop and get to Madison happy and well rested no problem.

Now if your trip is taking you to the middle of nowhere then you're screwed. The reason we didn't buy a Model X for my wife is because her parents live in the middle of nowhere (they don't even have internet at their house) and the closest place to charge is an hour each way. That's just not going to work which is why we have a gas car to do those trips.

oonowindoo

The point is we all understand it can be done, people have taken EV across the country.... it is just how inconvenient it will be. It is usually something you dont even have to think about and now you will have to take it into consideration. That is the case at least as of August 2021.
Until the inconvenience is no longer inconvenient, EV will not take the lead or anywhere close to it...

That goes back to the infrastructures and battery technology advancement...

If you have a gas car and an EV and you only use EV as your primary commuter car and you can charge comfortably at home whenever you want or drive several miles to a supercharging station, then you got all your bases covered.
For the days that EV is not an ideal solution, you take the other ICE car...

That is how all my co workers who have Tesla manage their commute too. All of them have at least 1 or 2 or 3 ICE cars at home and they use Tesla as the daily commute car.

But for many others, that is not the reality...And the inconvenience will only pile on if MORE people start buying EV and the infrastructure can't keep up...

1Louder

oonowindoo covered most of my reply. I am looking seriously at an EV for my next car and true, it will just require more planing. But, we will always have one ICE just for those moments. When you get to the stage in life where you have aging parents, and you are their support system, your schedule is not always your own. Nor can you be "stranded" if needed. But having one of each really solves that problem. These concerns I'm bringing up aren't insurmountable, they are just barriers that will slow the progress of 100% adoption until they are practically addressed. Like an abundant availability of supercharging.

Tech

Well my friend FINALLY figured it out as he is looking at a Toyota RAV 4, either the Hybrid or the Plug-In models. Both use the same gas engine.

It would cost him more to plug it in, charge the battery than the cost of gas per mile. And he didn't even take into account the efficiency of the charger.

SamDoe1

It's inconvenient because it's new to you and you're not used to that way of thinking. Once you're in it, it just becomes a part of life. I've been driving my car for two months now and have yet to come across any of the instances you find to be a potential problem. While we definitely have different use cases, the instances you're describing are likely incredibly rare and there are still ways to do them. That said, I wouldn't have an EV as my only car, as you said, because there are times when you just cannot do the EV thing and there isn't a way around it. We have a very specific use case where an EV would have been impossible at this point and that's why we have a Subaru instead of a Model X.

SamDoe1

How is this even possible? The cost to charge a battery is less than the cost to fill a gas tank by a large margin. My car takes the equivalent of 10 gallons of gas (30mpg, 300mi range) and it costs me ~$8.50 (85kWh battery, $0.10/kWh) to "fill" it from dead to full (MN pricing). The same gas would cost me at least $30 ($3/gal here for regular) in a normal car and probably $35 or more for a car that takes premium.

xjokerz

All the EV lovers on this thread need to shut up and stop telling people like us, who drive and embrace our gas powered vehicles, how to change our lifestyles to accommodate an EV. We're not going to adapt and rearrange our lives because charging an EV is a drag. Get off your high horse. The world doesn't revolve around you.

The fact is this: Until they make charging as fast and convenient as putting gas in your car, EV's aren't going anywhere. Not NEARLY as fast as what the government wants. We have gas stations all over the place. Then you realize that there are at least 6-8 pumps per station (some as many as 12 or 16) makes it really easy to put gas in your car. I'm not going to get some piece of crap Leaf or Bolt or whatever they got that takes 45 minutes to charge enough to drive 70 miles.

There is also another problem with EV's, although it's not as major: the lack of any intriguing options. There is literally nothing I would want to buy that is a straight EV. Hybrid, maybe. However, I'm not getting a Bolt. Those are disgusting clown cars. A Leaf is horrendous. Tesla no thanks. I'm not having some data privacy issues and a 20 inch screen staring at me the whole time while paying a fortune for it. Definitely don't want whatever electric trucks from Ford. Volvo's start at 50-60k for a little subcompact SUV.

Here is something else to consider: EV's aren't even guaranteed to be the future. All these companies are getting ahead of themselves by throwing billions into EV development but there exist other alternative such as hydrogen. Slow and steady often wins the race so I would think that hydrogen, at the very least, is 1 or 1A to electric vehicles. Only time will tell. (By the way, I fully expect the Tesla fanboys and/or EV lovers in general to give me a bunch of nonsense about why electric cars are far superior to hydrogen. Besides the lack of refueling stations, I don't think you can.

Don't forget about the dangers of creating batteries and all the chemicals that go into them. Then when the battery is toast what happens to it? It gets sent to some 3rd world country to sit in a landfill. Yeah, that's the kind of environmentally friendly practices I'm talking about!

xjokerz

See, you're admitting that EV's are impractical by stating that you would also have a gas car.

SamDoe1

^ who TF is this guy?

1Louder

Simmer down there - no one is telling you what to do. The only idea being floated here is that IF you want to get an EV in their current state THEN you may need to get used to a new routine to keep it charged. If you don't want one, don't get one. Odds are ICEs will be around a long time. I think you'll see in 10 years there will be tons more choices, and I expect there may become a point where it's the ICEs that will have limited choices. But it only happens as fast as the charging capabilities will allow.

Legend2TL

Have no clue, but gotta wonder

, suppose to be a friendly debate EV thread

1Louder

At about 2 posts / month, we may not find out until September.

ttribe

Ease up there, killer.

Sarlacc

Oh we got a live one here!

1Louder

Texans May Have to Pay $200–$400 Fee for Driving an Electric Vehicle

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ee-considered/

Bet we start seeing this more and more. I kind-of like the flat fee though rather than by mileage. I think tracking individual mileage to settle up your tax bill would be full of all kinds of logistical difficulties. I think states will be better off though with just one flat rate that averages low and high mileage drivers. Because even this TX bill would require some ability to know if you were over 9k. Unless you have to actually drive to a DMV or something which would be awful for everyone.

SamDoe1

We have a flat rate of $75 for EV's. Works out to about 8k miles of driving with the gas tax and a 30mpg car.

1Louder

I like that approach.

I know WA will create some awful Rube Goldberg style overly complicated nonsense that involves creating a new branch of the DMV and the taxes they collect will be far more than needed to fund the new branch in addition to the regular taxes.

oonowindoo

I think soon they will increase electricity rate for everyone... even when it is not needed, that would be perfect opportunity to do it.

nist7

@SamDoe1 Thanks for the thoughtful reply and knowing you are a multi (You own a Y and a M3P right?) Tesla/EV owner I do appreciate your input and your non-super biased view (some people are either super pro-ICE or super pro-EV).

I am likely going to change my mind as 10 years is a long long time and as with any tech...the growth is likely going to be exponential where the next 10 years will be a huge jump in tech/cost/efficiency vs the past 10 years in the world of EV. So I may have to re-evaluate in say 5 years instead of 10.

I'm looking for an opportunity to try out an EV....maybe a Tesla via Turo to get my feet wet and see how it feels. I'm a very late bloomer to the "enthusiast" car game so to speak (been too cheap to buy anything 'fun' until about a year ago with my 6MT 3G TL-S....yes very late to the game lol), so I'm still getting my ICE-itch scratched. So we'll see, heh.

00TL-P3.2

^ @kurtatx is the Dual Tesla owner, Y & 3LR IIRC
@SamDoe1 has the M3P & 2 ICE (Rubi JKU & Sub Ascent)
@Sarlacc also just took in a Y

They've all been quite transparent with the ownership/user experience.

00TL-P3.2

I've been curious, but not enough to take the time to seek out some test drives.
We've got a Tesla showroom not far from my house & another huge one on my morning commute; along with all the others just about. Ford, Audi, Porsche, VW, Kia/Hyundai/Genesis (eventually).

kurtatx

Basically anyone here who owns a Tesla is honest about them. In general, if you're expecting a Mercedes with an electric battery, that's not what you're getting with a Tesla.

Still love my cars but they are far from without fault.

SamDoe1

Nope, I just have the one EV at this point. We were considering a Model X for my wife but with where her parents live, it would make it impossible to charge at their place or close to it so an EV didn't fit in with that very important use case. I try to not biased at all on this, I'll tell you all the flaws and all the benefits as real as I can.

Honestly if you think the 3G TL-S is a "fun" car, the Tesla will make you feel like you're in another century. It will redefine your perception of speed and performance. The only downside is that it only comes with two pedals and you only really use one of them. The big upside is there is literally no maintenance/upkeep to be done. Just charge it, drive it, and enjoy.

SamDoe1

The only ones not transparent about Teslas are those that don't even own one.

Agreed on the comment that it's not a Benz or BMW with a battery. It's really good, but it's not THAT good. The refreshed interiors on the MY21 and higher is much better than the prior years.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to test out an EV just to experience the performance aspect but aside from that.. meh.

Sure they serve a purpose & some folks love them but there's a slim chance they'll take over anytime soon IMO. There's an abundance of quality used cars that will keep folks happy for many years to come.

Sure never gets old trolling smug Tesla bros in my archaic blown V8 with 3 pedals tho...

00TL-P3.2

Was thinking about this earlier.

What's the rental car market going to look like? Are rental facilities going to spend the $$ to keep every car on the lot charged (especially places like large airports which have sizeable rental fleets), and you'll need sufficient infrastructure (hotels, etc) for rental fleets for people that may not be local to the area.

The IAH rental lot is a roughly 1000x800 ft 2-story (Almost 2M sq ft, including 'driveways'/aisles) facility.
MAF (Midland, TX) is usually very low stocked due to O&G traffic, but is a 12k sq ft outdoor lot

oonowindoo

You are thinking into things that is way into the future... ICE cars will not go away any time soon. So what you are thinking is not really relevant.

When things do get there eventually, that means the infrastructures and tech are already there where you dont have to worry about charging locations and time, rental car or not.

SamDoe1

^ This.

1Louder

Agree, but these are also the kind of points that EV evangelists routinely dismiss.

Also, renting an EV means you are 100% reliant on public charging. That is a very different scenario than private owners who may be able to mix home charging with public.

But it's a similar challenge to those living in apartments.

oonowindoo

When the Tech/infrastructure are ready (Whenever that may be), there should be plenty of charging ports (more than needed) at the hotel instead of just 2 or 3 we see nowadays. Once taken, those cars never leave. You should get a full charge at a reasonable speed (not sure how fast we can get in the future)
Last time i was in Vegas, there was this Model X parked there at the charging port when i arrived on Friday and was still in the same spot (never moved) when i left on Tues

having just a few % of the cars on the road that are EV require very different tech and solutions than say 80% of the cars on the road are EV...
I know we got people here who just ignore those things, but in reality, those can't be ignored. At some point, they will hit a bottle neck if the Tech/Infrastructure can't keep up with the EV Growth...

Most of the people can't afford 40k 50k 60k EVs that we have now. At some point, there would be 20k/30k EVs with reasonable range that normal people could afford. So we still have a loooong way to go..

SamDoe1

Yep. As EV's become more prevalent you'll see hotels with chargers for each parking spot that they can tie back power consumed and bill to the room if they want to. Same for apartment complexes. It's not hard to tie charging bills to residents or customers if it comes to that but it'll take time to get that infrastructure there.

1Louder

It's going to be a chicken and egg problem pretty soon.

It's the demand for EVs that will compel the growth in charging infrastructure. Yet it's the charging infrastructure that will cap EV growth. But, in reality they'll grow together.

But this is exactly why this is going to be an evolution not a revolution. No one is going to invest in a charging infrastructure large enough for every car on the road when only a tiny fraction of cars on the road are EVs. I think charging infrastructure growth will be regional at first, combined with some EV growth for owners who can charge at home for most of their needs. Then it will expand from there.

pttl

All good points here. As I've said...ev world needs to mature.

SamDoe1

Definitely but the number of EVs on the road is rapidly rising. The biggest holdback at this point is price. The cheapest Tesla SR+ you can buy is $40k and that's a lot of money for a lot of people to spend on a car. Once they get ones that are in the mid $20k range to start then the game is really on. Other automakers are doing the same to try and bring the prices down but it'll take some time to get there. That said, there are a lot of people who would be in the market for a BMW, Benz, Audi, etc who are going EV right now. I'd say that's the majority of buyers today.

oonowindoo

That is why I have been saying that in order for EV to become a norm, the government has to be involved. There is only so much a private business can do in a YUUUGE country like the US where cars are as common as bicycles in other countries.
Until the US government is serious about investing some real $$ into EV, Tech and infrastructures, the growth of the EV would be handicapped at some point. So far, other than some tax incentives, it is just mostly talks from the government....

Aman

Demand will be the tide that rises all boats re: EVs. If government action is the bottleneck, that's where the pressure will be applied. Same for if hotels/rental agencies etc. are behind the norm.

00TL-P3.2

Until your 'neighbor' unplugs your car & plugs into his, charging you for the energy consumption
My post was just a random thought that popped into my head. Obviously we're a long way from there.

Also, are the any issues with charging in inclement weather? Houston is known for some torrential rain, how does that play in to outdoor charging?