oonowindoo

That is why it makes sense to have both... since cold parts of the US wont stay cold all year long.

But we have some ppl here think EV will take over the world and replace ICE cars in all applications within the next 5 years.... correction: within the next 3 years... since they said that in 2020...

SamDoe1

This.

98% of the time, it's totally fine. It's only on those days when it's stupid cold out that the car just can't generate enough heat to warm up the cabin is when it's not good. I guess that's a hallmark to the efficiency of the drive in that it doesn't generate a ton of waste heat, especially when idle, but it does suck when that heat needs to be scavenged for cabin heat.

oonowindoo

Just curious since i have never experienced EV in those temps, does the heater, heated steering wheel, heated seat actually work in those conditions? I mean i know it will eventually work, but does it take much longer than ICE cars?

mrmako

Plus, there will not be an infrastructure in place for all these charging stations.

Sorry, the range and the at home charging is a killer for me. I like to drive, so I want more than 300 miles on an optimal day. Plus, the vast majority of the US is powered via coal and natural gas. When the tech for the car becomes 400-500 miles per charge, the roof becoming a solar collector to a point, and charging stations being as numerous as gas stations then I can see getting one. Or as indicated above, have one for all commuting needs that are local. And use a solar/capacitor/battery system at the house to charge that doesn't pull from the grid.

I had a relative work for a large corporation and her job was integrating solar and wind power into the grid. She said it is unbelievably difficult to do. The US is quite disbursed, and the thought of magically having super clean power is rediculous right now, as the technology is not quite there yet. We should strive for more and better clean power. Absolutely. But any proclimations about all EV in 5 or 10 years is

SamDoe1

Yes, all of those things work fine. They actually work BETTER than a gas car because you don't have to wait for the engine to warm up before you have heat. If I hop in my car now the air coming out the vents is hot before I leave my driveway.

Heating the cabin isn't the hard part though, it's heating the battery pack so it can run/charge optimally hence why preheating the car is a good idea. If it's plugged into the wall the car will pull from the wall to heat itself and not the battery.

The vast majority of our winter days are between 15F and 30F (air temp) so seeing days where the high is -9F or something insane like that only happens for a couple days a year and those days I really don't want to go anywhere to begin with. I personally haven't had an issue with a no-heat condition but apparently what others have been told is that there is a timeout on the heat pump where if it's running for so long continuously, it'll error out and cause a no heat condition. There's an update that's allegedly being pushed soon to fix that issue.

What about home charging is bad? It's the best and easiest way to #EVLyfe. There's zero chance that a solar roof would have any meaningful impact on car performance, the space just isn't big enough to do anything notable with and the range impact from the weight of the panels plus all the hardware to run them would probably more than offset any gains you get from solar. Also, worried about home power generation? Guessing you don't have a solar roof now right? So are you worried every time you turn on your oven or clothes dryer? Guessing not so these are simply excuses.

You drive more than 300 miles a day continuously without stopping at all on a regular basis? I call shenanigans. My guess is that you stop for lunch right? Bathroom? Plug the car in to a fast charger while you eat and you're all set to go for another 300 miles. It takes 20mins to go from 5% to 80% battery from a fast charger. It's not even close to as difficult to do this as you all seem to think it is. Chargers are more and more prevalent all around the country, even more so with Tesla.

Lastly, I did not at all buy an EV for the environmental benefits. I mean it's cool and all but I also somewhat regularly drive a lifted box that gets 13mpg on a good day so a tree hugger I am not. I bought one because the tech is cool, it more than fits 99% of my driving needs, fun to drive, and fast as duck.

In regards to 5-10 years, that's probably true. Everyone and their mother are switching to EV and you'll see MANY MANY more come out in the next 2-3 years. They won't by any means take over from ICE vehicles but the market share of EV's is going to skyrocket in the next couple years.

If you don't want an EV then that's cool, don't buy one but you don't need to make a bunch of silly and flawed excuses for why not. Just saying you don't want one is more than enough lol. My guess is that if you actually, and seriously, looked into it (and asked actual owners about experiences and tips, not scooter boy and the comfortable one), you'd find that an EV probably fits into your life just fine even right now.

Legend2TL

Pretty informative video on lithium batteries, go to 14:10 for their analysis of comparing ICE to EV for pollution and emissions,

oonowindoo

Yah any sensible people would see that even including our inhouse Tesla owners. Only a selected few non-EV owners somehow think as long as Elon is around, all the problems will be magically resolved on their own. If that doesnt work, just keep posting more youtube videos.. those will sure solve the problems.
There will be an infrastructure bottleneck as we continue to converting to EV.

mrmako

@SamDoe1 My point is I applaud the folks like Musk for bringing this to market, but at the moment it is niche. For those that can afford to do it. Listening to all the climate people talk the world will end soon if we don't start switching now. I think that is BS. But I'll address your points:

Solar panels are only have about 20-25% efficiency. If there's a way to integrate super conductors then this would be a boon (those require insane amounts of cooling so not an option yet). MIT Studies new ways to increase solar panel efficiency

I don't have solar for two reasons: 1. The cost is extortion compared to any cost savings (Not only the initial investment, but I can't sell back excess at market rates. The energy I produce to put back in the grid would be bought at 1/4 the rate I pay for electricity). For comparison, I lived in Germany a long time and the solar I had was sold back to my energy provider at the same rate they sold it to me. 2. I live in a high hail state. A lot of sunshine, but fairly frequent panel replacement is not in the cards. And the panels as noted above are not that efficient.

As far as the charging distance, correct. I don't do 300 miles a day continuous. However, The option of taking a very long drive is limited to only routes that have a charging station. Not optimal. No worries with an ICE car.

So not flawed reasons. Actual reasons that I will assess as the technology evolves. I am happy for everyone that has been able to have the disposable income to do this, but do not call me out because I don't think we are there yet. I am calling out the technology.

Sarlacc

Battery tech is always changing. Tesla is starting to switch over to Nickel Cadmium batteries in newer Model 3/Y.

1killercls

This.

1Louder

I forget what thread I made the comment, but in my humble opinion I do not think EVs currently offer the same "car" for the price as a gas equivalent when you consider all factors - ride, handling, quality of materials, build quality, etc., also when you ignore the incentives. The incentives might help with that currently but incentives are not permanent. I sort-of benchmark the sport sedan I'd like to have next. One on my consider list is a Lexus IS 350 AWD F-Sport. Prices out to about $56k. So what's the EV that gives me the same total car value at that price? Probably one of the flavors of a Model 3, but I would argue the Lexus is going to be a notch above in the areas I just listed above. Pure acceleration is where the Tesla would shine of course. I'm not saying the Tesla is light-years away, but for my $56k I want total value against all my priorities, not just an electronic rocket. But also those are MY values, and everyone's values are different. But for a buyer like me, in order for me to cross-shop EVs and ICEs there needs to be a cost/value equivalency. I think what we are seeing in the "next wave" of EVs in the next 2-3 years might start doing that, but pricing out say a BMW i4 (just the RWD version) still pushes you way into the $60k+ range. But that's IS 500 money now with 472 hp and that whole "EV acceleration" advantage starts getting smaller.

Legend2TL

Did you mean nickel-cobalt-aluminum batteries?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...eaper-battery/

FWIW nickel cadmiums are pretty old battery tech, which have mostly faded away.

Sarlacc

this what?

what kind of EV and what’s the range? How far are they from key west? Does the car not have fast charging?

if it’s an older model EV that’s really only has miles for daily commuting then, yeah, no.

I took a road trip up to Monterey a couple weeks ago. No issues with supercharging. Took people with gas cars 5.5-6 hours to get there. Took us about the same.

Sarlacc

yeah that’s what I meant. I know NiCad is old and didn’t feel right when I typed it.

Legend2TL

Overall for me the batter tech are the biggest obstacles to mass adoption of EV are battery cost, charge capacity/density (range) and charging rate (time) are the main issues.
Additionally lifecycle management (reclamation) is still a long term issue. Battery discharge rate has achieved it's some pretty awesome power delivery and infrastructure is not a long term issue as capacity can and is incrementally scaled up.
ICE will not be gone in a decade or so as many older vehicles will be on the road for awhile but am curious when EV's will break the 50% new vehicle sales being EV, still a long way to go. Perhaps late 2020's?

Interesting to read Sam's cold Tesla adventures, gotta keep those LiOn's in their temp range.

SamDoe1

1.) People can obviously afford it. The wait list is months long and the number of people buying equivalent model cars is staggering. So many BMWs, MBs, Audis, high end pickups cost more yet they're all over the road. The cost is undoubtedly high but it's not that much higher than other competitive cars.
2.) Solar panels on cars making any kind of difference isn't happening any time soon. Improvements in battery tech are far outpacing solar tech.
3.) Then don't hang your hat on buying an EV only if it comes with a clean energy source. It's not likely to happen anytime soon but at least you're not burning fuel on both ends and a power plant is likely a lot more efficient than your car is at generating energy.
4.) Motor Trend drove two Rivian R1T's across the country off road on the trans america trail. It's certainly possible to go off the beaten path but you are obviously limited by range from charger. This is improving but having a second gas car is still important. I have my Jeep and my wife's Subaru for times when the EV doesn't make sense. For us, we have a defined use case where EV is impossible and that's to go see my wife's parents. There's zero chance that it would work to take an EV there right now.
5.) For 99% of my driving, the EV does it all and likely would do it all for you too. Go try it out, you might be impressed.

dafuq? This is absolutely false lol. There are fast chargers all along the route from the city in your bio to Key West. It wouldn't be as fast as a gas car but it's certainly doable without any semblance of an overnight stop.

There's no overnight charging nonsense anymore, that's super old news.

You really want to compare a Lexus with an interior and technology from 2011 to a modern EV?

I'll start with a question, have you ever even tried an EV? Any of the better ones (not the Leaf or the Bolt type ones) are really good in the things you call out for ride, handling, quality of materials, build quality, etc. Tesla got a bad wrap for build and interior quality but that has improved by light years from when the Model 3 first came out. No or minimal issues with modern built cars. A Model 3 Performance is faster around a racetrack than a BMW M3 and a Alfa QV, so the handling is certain not too shabby. Ride quality is average, probably not as good as a Lexus but certainly on par with the M3. I've never driven the Model 3 LR so I can't comment on that ride but imagine it's a bit softer than my car.

tl;dr My values are very similar to yours and I passed on a M3 because the Tesla was better all around AND didn't come with the high running costs. When MT's car of the year (Lucid Air) and truck (Rivian R1T) of the year as well as C&D's car of the year (Ford Mockey) and Doug Demuro's car of the year (Rivian R1T) are ALL EV's then you have to start wondering if there's something more to this than my bias perceives it to be. Maybe go give it a try and let us know what you think.

Sarlacc

Aside from a couple overly opinionated chuckleheads who don’t even own EVs. I don’t think anyone has said ice will be non-existent in 10 years. Cameras went digital yet we still shoot celluloid. Cell phones have great cameras yet people still use dedicated ones. Etc etc.

Point is I think in 10 years we’ll see a massive shift. But I don’t think ICE will ever be gone 100%.

Sarlacc

youre really starting to embody your avatar. You keep making statements against EV yet you refuse to actually go drive one. Armchair quarterbacking at its finest.

1Louder

I just picked one car on my list. And I'm a big Lexus fan, so there's some brand loyalty there. Reliability being at the top of that list.

All I'm really saying is if the Model 3 I'd want to own specs out at $60k, I'm going to compare to $60k sport sedans which will likely include some flavor of BMW 3-series, Audi A4's, Lexus IS, Acura TLX-S, Genesis G70, etc. Also in that list will be the BMW i4, Genesis GV60, Polestar 2. I don't want to go EV "bad enough" yet to pay $5k more for the EV if similarly equipped. At least not right now. Maybe things change by the time I'm really in the market. I guess another way to say it is the lure of owning an EV is not going to sway me into paying more than the comparably equipped competition.

But in the end I need to see them all in person, drive them, etc. And to your point I have not been in a recent Model 3. I drove in a model X a few years ago.

1Louder

I think I'm being honest about these being my opinions, my personal priorities, and the fact I have a lot of in-person work to do when I'm in the market. And I'm not against EVs at all. I'm just not willing to pay more for one "because EV".

But I do spend an unusual amount of time on their web sites, building out cars with the options I want, playing "what if" game. So it's not like I'm completely uninformed.

I'll give EVs a fair shake when the time comes. I personally think they are all currently over-priced. That includes offerings from other manufacturers coming out this year, not just a dig at Tesla. Maybe the tax break offsets it, and maybe they are over-pricing because of it. A respectably equipped BMW i4 is $62K. That gets you a 5.5 sec 0-60 time and 300 miles of range. That competes with a LOT of very good cars, and one can argue you can find an equivalent for mid $55k. So the tax break makes up for that, but what happens when the tax breaks go away.....

SamDoe1

And what I'm getting at is that for something like a Model 3 vs a 3 series of similar spec and performance isn't a cost increase, it's a pretty substantial decrease especially when you consider gas, maintenance, depreciation, etc.

Believe me, I did the math and the Tesla is CONSIDERABLY cheaper than an equivalent M340i, let alone the M3 that it benchmarks to.

SamDoe1

ICE isn't going anywhere soon. Other than scooter boy and the comfortable one, no one is saying otherwise. I have two gas guzzling cars in my garage right now but don't drive them nearly as much as the EV because of the cost advantage.

I'll tell my EV adventure like it is, always have and always will. I'm not tied to the brand at all. In fact I've already kind of jumped ship to the next EV so the Tesla's time in my garage is already limited to however long it takes the next one to arrive. All of the actual Tesla owners on this forum have a similar story. The car is not without fault but, for the criteria that everyone likes to try and push, it's actually better than the comparable gas car. The ones saying the car is without fault don't even own one.

Sarlacc

I make my comment based on the fact that all you've done is read. You haven't actually gone and driven anything.

I didn't get a tax break on my Y. Its been gone and unless the build back better bill passes it will stay gone. I only received $3500 in incentives and refunds. I'm still cool with my decision. So when all is said and done I paid about $60k out the door. Add in taxes to that $55k BMW and its about the same. BUT I don't have the cost of oil changes or most standard maintenance over time. Filters, Tires, and eventually a long long way down the road brakes.

Now, with current Y pricing upped to $69k for al long range with no Gov't rebate...that is hard to swallow. Even I can admit that. And at that price I would have just spent a little more to get a Y Performance. Or maybe I wouldn't gone EV at all. But I'm happy I bought when I did.

I just finished up a job where I had to commute over 40 miles each way over two huge hills. Not much traffic driving in to work at 5:30am. Minor traffic driving home at 6pm. I used about 35% each day. So, I had to charge every two days. If I was driving my Lexus I'd probably have to get gas every 3 days. The only factor that makes this a pain in the butt for me is that I don't have a charger at home. But I have them next door and live 3 blocks from a supercharger. The one next door wasn't working so I ran to the supercharger real quick. It was simple. A minor inconvenience but still very doable. Now, if I was on a long term job at that location would owning an EV make more sense? Probably not without home charging. Only because I'd probably be spending $150 a month to charge using pay chargers (vs cheaper off peak home charging) instead of $250+ a month in gas. So, there is still a cost saving but not as big, though one could argue $100+ a month isn't chump change. Of course if I was on the show full time I could have probably asked the electricians to hook me so I could charge at work.

Basically, depending on your charging and needs it can either come out as a wash or still give an advantage.

Marcelechka

There's a Rivian showroom in Downtown Bellevue on 116th; you should check it out.

1Louder

I'll do a lot of driving when I'm in the market - so fair criticism that it's a little arm-chair quarterbacking right now. But I find them interesting so I read a lot - Car and Driver, web sites, articles, etc. I was mistaken before it was a friends Y, not an X, that I drove in. He took three of us out and I think it was some kind of performance variant. We did 3 launches and I've never been in a car that went that fast before. It pressed you into your seat in a significant way even with four people in the car. So that was fun.

I'd definitely get level 2 charging at home. And I can see the whole thing working well for commuting.

Sarlacc

the Y long range is 0-60 in 4.8 stock. 4.3 if you buy the acceleration boost. And the Y Performance is 3.5. They are all quick with push you back torque. And the Y is actually the slowest Tesla. Even the X is quicker with the regular model at 3.8 and the Plaid at 2.5.

SamDoe1

I don't know how Sarlacc does it with the public charging only, I couldn't manage that in my situation so, for me, a home charger is a must have. I just pull into my garage, plug it in, go to bed, and it's ready to rock in the morning. No stops for gas when it's -20F outside, no stops for gas when the line at the Costco is 30 minutes long, no stops for gas when I have other shit to do, etc. I have never once gone below 20% on my battery other than the one time I did it on purpose to recalibrate the system. FOR ME, charging the car is so much cheaper than gas, a full charge is about $8.50 for the rates in my market and that nets me (ideally, not in winter) about 300 miles of range. A similar gas car that gets 30mpg would need 10gal of gas to do the same distance at a cost of $32 per current prices here. If you want a car that has similar performance to that of the M3P then you are both not using regular gas and definitely not getting 30mpg so it would be considerably more expensive.

The M3P does 0-60 in about 3s. It's fast as duck and will scare people, especially if you floor it from about 20-30mph. Instant full torque is a lot of fun.

Sarlacc

Because I live in LA where you can basically spit and find a charger. That said having the chargers next door is basically the same as having one at home. It’s very doable here. We now have about 7-8 teslas in our garage. No one in my building has yet to install a charger because the conduit run costs so much. $3300 was my quote. I’ll never spend that much in a year using public chargers.

mrmako

Curious, how much is a home charger? And this is on top of the price of the car. Just wondering.

pttl

Depending on the price of local electricians I've seen prices between 2000 and 3500 to have the work done for a home charger. Yes, that's on top of the price of the car.

The ev car seller paying for the charger would certainly go a long way towards thinking about getting one.

Sarlacc

it depends on where your main panel is located and the distance the run needs to be. At my MIL’s house the run was about 70’ and it was $1500. CA offers. $1000 rebate on that. Plus $500 for the charger.

For my condo the run is 150’ and $3300.

some people get away with $500. If the main panel is close it’s really not difficult to do it yourself.

mrmako

So saying that, I have my main panel (150A) in my garage, almost exactly where I would park an EV. Might actually be only a few hundred to do the short run, then install the actual unit.

1killercls

Evidently I am going by info I looked at a couple of years ago on EV's. So I will just have a sip from my cup of STFU until I get up to date on the tech of Ev's TODAY.

But just reading here in the last few posts, they still don't seem to be the logical choice here in the Tampa Bay area. Also, keep in mind I'm an old guy. (61)

00TL-P3.2

If I went that route, I'd have about a 1' run, as the panel & garage wall are shared.
But, my car is parked in the driveway, so that complicates things.

Would be around a 40' run to put it where the Rotus skeleton currently sits.

SamDoe1

Mine cost me ~$150 to install but that's parts only since I DIY'ed the install as it's not that hard. If I were to have an electrician do it the bid was ~$700. My sub panel is in my garage already to run my wood shop so it was to run a 12G wire from that, over the top of the garage door, and to where the third stall is located. Then install a NEMA 6-20 outlet at that location.

The charger itself is a bit different. The car comes with a "travel charger" that's more than capable of daily charging your car and most people, myself included, do this. There is a cost to upgrade the plug to a 240V plug but that's only $35 so whatever. Tesla will sell you a "wall charger" for $500 but that's a total ripoff. If you want to keep a travel charger in the car at all times (mostly pointless with superchargers) then you can just buy another one for $250... The car comes with a J1772 adapter as well. I didn't want to do the wall charger because it's Tesla specific and I'm not going to always have a Tesla so spending $500 on it was dumb.

There's also a 30% tax rebate on charger installation on top of whatever local and state incentives you might have. I had zero.

You could DIY the run and have an electrician make the connections. Or you could DIY, it's not hard. Probably cost a couple hundred to have someone do it if it's a short run.

Keep in mind that pricing for skilled labor these days is insanity. When I had my sub panel installed the cost was $1300 to run a big ass wire for a 70A panel from the basement in the opposite corner of my house, up two floors, through the attic, and into my garage, then install a panel, two 20A circuits, etc. Now they wanted $700 or $800 to run one smaller wire through an unfinished garage about 25-30ft away.

Why do you say that?

1killercls

I would have to spend the extra $$$ to have a charger installed at my house because there are only 3 superchargers in the Tampa Bay area.

SamDoe1

I'd argue that you should do that anyway. The amount of money you'd save on using a home charger vs public charger or gas is probably going to offset the price of installing something at your house.

I just Googled the price of electricity in Tampa and it's even cheaper than here at ~$0.06/kWh. A Model 3 LR or Performance have a 85kWh battery so it would cost you ~$5.10 for a full charge to go about 300 miles. I'm guessing gas for your car is considerably more than that.

1killercls

I guess I am just not ready to go electric yet.

At least with my car, I just fucking love the car it's such a blast to drive. Maybe when the lease is up on the wife's SQ5 we can investigate electric...

SamDoe1

That's fair. I don't want to buy that is certainly a more than acceptable reason lol. Just don't make a judgement on flawed premise is all.

I don't know how much more time you have on that lease but I believe the Q5 E tron is up next so you might be able to just get an EV version of the same car.

1killercls

1.5 years left I believe. And an Etron would be the go to for an EV. Or the new Ford Mustang looking EV...