agreed - it's just personal preference.

btw in terms of performance for a sports car, DSG is clearly "better".

 

I think its different for each and every car. When I bought my GTI I went with the DSG because it just felt better then the manual. When I picked up the BRZ I had test driven an automatic FR-S before it and I hated it.

 

agreed, it can certainly depend on the car.

 

People have to keep that in mind. That feeling of involvement you experience form a manual, it's a feeling. That you experience. Maybe you get a kick out of waving your arm around and having to press your foot all throughout your commute, it's your thing. Other people get a thrill from driving a faster better car. I used to have a manual, I insisted on it for my first car. Now I get my fun from driving with one foot on the gas and the other hovering over the brake, with my fingers on the paddles, both hands on the wheel at all times when I'm doing a sharp turn. I get satisfaction knowing that my car shifts faster AND brakes faster. And when I'm stuck in stop and go traffic I don't get the annoyance of working the clutch non stop, I don't remember that being fun at all.

 

You mean like the same kind of feeling when you have real sex instead of handjob? Yes, driving a manual is a feeling and a glorious one at that. Not quite sure what your point is.

Do you really drive that on public roads or on the track?

That's because you're not an enthusiast, belzegrandmama.



BTW, yes I have test driven the 991 (both base and S versions) with both manual and PDK. And yes, I "get" that the technical competence of a PDK is unbeatable on the track, but how many of us actually make track time in our every day cars? I can't speak for all sports car drivers, but the every day fun and engagement of a manual beats the pants off shift-0-matic.

Flamesuit on in the 911 appreciation thread.

 

btw just to clarify - I don't have anything against PDK or any of the other auto systems - I know it caters to certain people and certain people love it - and that is absolutely fine - I just wish Porsche continued offering the MT as an option and it's completely sad to me that it's no longer an option.

 

Totally agreed. PDK is awesome and I was pleasantly surprised by how well it performed. It's too bad Stuttgart is waving the white flag on progress, but I understand the economics of car building as well.

My feeling is that anyone locking in a 991 with a 7-MT while they are still being made will eventually carry higher residual. Just a hunch.

 

Yeah that is my big thing, I didn't know they offered a 7 speed transmission so apparently they didn't publicity correctly otherwise I would have heard of it, I mean I am on auto blog and jalopnik everyday, so maybe I missed it but still don't recall it all of them offering a 7 speed transmission.

 

How the fuck did you not know about that when you quoted the article in a post above?
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/05/2...anual-gearbox/


Oh my goodness.

 

you know what i mean usuallt they have that type of stuff in a commercial like chrysler has the 8 speed auto in theirs

you just kinda miss it

but I can understand what you mean

 

Wow, lots of vitriol in these posts. I daily drove a 6 speed manual 997.1 C2S for 4 years and most recently a DCT California for 1.5 years.

+1. Single clutch tranny on LP560-4 is even more jerky. Bunch of my friends prefer this neck-jarring type of transmission as more sporty. I always drive the DCT in manual mode

+1

+1.

"The head of engine development at Ferrari, Vittorio Dini, says manual transmissions have had their day, with the latest twin-clutch automatic transmission offered in the 458 Italia providing quicker acceleration and better fuel economy than a manual.
“The manual gearbox has been a tradition for us but almost nobody buys one anymore,” he says.
He says the take-up of manual transmissions on the forerunner to the 458, the F430, was just five per cent, while demand for a self-shifting box on the recently released California convertible was even less."


"Auto accelerates quicker than the manual because power isn’t interrupted by gear changes. With the auto, the car is actually accelerating during the gear changes, while on the manual, the power delivery is interrupted. A dual-clutch transmission can accelerate faster than a manual because it can pre-select gears before they are engaged. While one clutch engages first gear, the other clutch has already engaged second gear, so that gear changes are instantaneous."

+1. As a daily driver, I am much happier with the DCT of the F-car. I always drive in "manual" mode and with the Sports setting the car is still very lively, engaging, and visceral. I've driven the 458 Spider at length and the feeling is mutual.

If my ride was a weekend warrior, reference would be traditional manual. Stop and go traffic is a daily nuisance and rendered my daily driving experience with the 911 as more of chore than pleasure.

I was offered a slot for the 991 GT3 but I think I would miss owning a Ferrari. It's much more special for me but YMMV.

Finally, while I wouldn't call the 911 mass-produced, as a former owner I would say they are far from exclusive.

"The latest generation of the iconic 911 was highly coveted in 2012 and achieved the greatest growth with a 31.4 percent increase in sales: a total of 25,475 vehicles were sold worldwide."

 

Why are you so furious?

 

There's no "furious" here. Just replies to a lot of uninformed comments being made by fans of dead technology.

Still waiting to see how Hamilton's manual-preference in a Zonda had any validity btw.

 

I don't know what your point is with that comment Fibo, you're saying when you're moving that shift knob around it feel like you're having sex (not that there's anything wrong with that) or does it feel like you're giving a HJ (or getting one)?


I have my left foot free so I use it. Or I rest it and use just my right foot. I can do either one with an auto. I'm not on a race track but when I'm carving through traffic I'd like to get that extra car length of stopping distance, it could in some situations mean the difference between paying for some damage or not. Not all of us have a car that needs a nose job (you knew that was coming sooner or later).

That's what they said about CDs vs LPs too, old man, we heard the same story back then.

So now you're saying if it doesn't get you an advantage off the track, it's not useful. But the every day usability of a PDK in traffic beats a manual. You don't have to go to the track. You're being a hypocrite, you want to feel "engaged" every day with the car but you're making fun of others for being "engaged" with the car by being able to use both pedals and the immediacy of shifting from the steering wheel.

You could have just said that and left out all the flame bait.

 

I was attempting to make a humorous response to your "feelings" post. The point of a manual is that it makes a driver "feel" more engaged in the act of driving.


So your point is that you are a very aggressive driver on public roads.

As for the nose job on my 6MT TL, yep I've been on record many times that the power plenum is certainly not Acura's strongest feature (understatement), but there were few choices in the class for an AWD sedan with some decent tech/luxury AND a manual. I didn't feel like paying 20k more for an S4 along with a higher cost of ownership.


Who said anything about standing in the way of progress? I can appreciate classic cars as much as the next guy, and I passed on a low mileage NSX for the same reason. I simply like having options and am not looking to shave a few tenths off my lap time, thus no urgent need for an automatic.


I'm simply saying different strokes for different folks. Pretty sure not too many driving enthusiasts are agreeing with your point that a PDK is more engaging.


Coming from the grandfather of flame bait in R&P.

 

lol @ "dead technology"

The vinyl vs CD vs MP3 analogy is perfectly applicable here. There are plenty of people still listening to vinyl and very much enjoying the added feeling and experience thereof, and vinyl is still being produced today. Sure it is a special niche market and not the majority, but the fact is it is not "dead technology". It will never go away. Likewise, while manufacturers are pulling away from MT, there will always be manufacturers who do. And I personally see MT making a comeback sometime in the future, like some kind of renaissance movement where people want to get the joy back into the driving experience.

The Hamilton reference is a fact that backs up the claims being made by MT enthusiasts in here (and many other places) that the MT experience is substantially more engaging and fun than the paddle-shift experience. An accomplished F1 driver wanting a special model Zonda but needing a MT put in it for his own personal preference does indicate a specific desire for that specific experience based on specific preferences. It is relevant and valid in our discussion here.

 

just coincidentally noticed this relevant link about this 'dead technology'; one that is along the lines of the "renaissance" I mentioned above

http://jalopnik.com/genius-parents-c...manu-496309265

 

My point is that I have a higher safety margin, even when I'm not doing "spirited driving".

So you bought a TL instead of an S4 and did not consider an A4 for example, because... you wanted the power of an S4? I thought you were not looking to shave tenths off your lap time? Oh wait, you "need" the 270hp or whatever so that you can "merge safely on onramps", right? Unlike the 95% of people who have much slower cars than yours and who are unsafe?

You keep making these wishy washy arguments about "being engaged" but not too engaged (you're not a racer) but you want a fast car but you don't want to shave tenths off your lap time... And there's only ONE way feel "engaged", your MT way, if someone else likes feeling "engaged" by using a PDK/manumatic for the reasons I mentioned that's just silly, right? Only your way of feeling engaged is the correct way.


No I'm saying that, you're making fun of me for saying that you can feel engaged driving a manumatic.

You sure about that?

On one hand we have Lewis Hamilton who bought a special Zonda because he's an F1 driver and he said he already drives paddles at work. On the other hand you have 90%+ of Ferrari customers who buy race cars, drive their cars in races, and buy the hundreds of special race-made Ferraris with manumatics, to the point where Ferrari decides that it's not even worth offering most of their cars with manuals.

I'd say the enthusiasts have voted overwhelmingly against the manuals.

In R&P it's expected, and I get way more than I dish. Here it's just poor taste.

 

Puhleeze, really? Your trying to convince us that two footing your automatic on public roads is your "safety" margin.


TL offered similar performance to an S4 but was twenty grand cheaper, probably close to 30k when you count the all-in for six years of ownership. I don't feel the need to make a fashion statement with my daily driver, and yes I was looking for a bit more power after my first gen TSX.


Go back and look at my posts, where did I ever try to convince you or anyone else that manual was the ONLY correct way. I merely said it was my preference and am bummed to see that Porsche is not offering the option in the GT3 and Turbo (yet). Maybe they'll change their mind.


It was in good natured jest, not meant to be a personal affront.


We've exchanged enough banter in many a thread to not take each other too seriously in teh interwebz.

 

And I suppose you're going to claim that LED tail lights don't offer any additional safety margin over an incandescent? It's a measurable fact, just like the fact that pressing a brake pedal takes less time than taking your foot off the gas, moving it over the brake and then pressing the brake pedal. You know darn well that in a panic stop it adds a few feet, just like LED lights.

It's something you can't do with a manual, and it increases the driver's involvement, in a different way than a manual.

Now since you apparently never said that an MT is the ONLY way to increase driver involvement, now is the time when you can grudgingly concede that I'm right, or just keep on making fun of my argument while denying you ever did a few lines later. Or try to save face and say "haha, I was just kidding!"


Of course. Still, you insulted the involvement feelings of manumatic users and you must substantiate your argument or be e-punished.

 

Because manual drivers are never as capable of being distracted as automatic owners.
When I had my Si, I didn't find it hard at all to answer my phone or play with the radio. As I said earlier, after you get it down, driving a manual becomes second nature enabling you to do all the stupid shit an automatic driver becomes distracted by. I love how the article also points out that he doesn't keep both hands on the wheel. Seems to the tool used to discourage doing anything distracting is doing just that.

Rethink how you want to debate this dying (is that better?) technology & come back, then.
Let's read the article on why Hamilton chose a manual next time since it actually makes more sense as to why he chose a manual in comparison as to why any of us would.
He drives an paddle-operated car as his actual profession, so him wanting a manual is most likely to switch it up.

 

lol the article doesn't even say for a fact that Hamilton said himself that that is the reason why he did that. all it says is "apparently"

btw I'm not talking about this stuff quite nearly as seriously as you are

and regarding the manual gearbox lowering the chance of distracted driving, well sure there are times when you don't need to be shifting. but overall I think it's easy to agree that it lowers the opportunity for distracted driving

 

Then what did he say was the reason?

Serious or not, you haven't done any effort at arguing your point.
It may lower the opportunity, but it does nothing in any significant way of actually discouraging it.

 

so it was a quote from him - but he's said what he did in jest, according to this - the FACT is that he wanted a Zonda 760RS, but he also wanted to get it custom made with a manual gearbox in it. Come on, this is not rocket science. Pretty easy to understand why he would have wanted that.
http://www.imaginelifestyles.com/lux...lewis-hamilton

 

I get the impression you just like arguing.

It's a personal preference of yours, just like driving MT is one of mine.

 

I know. I never said it didnt.

 

Yea, because he will never get used to driving stick and have the ability to be distracted

 

It doesn't change my original point, then. He has a more a valid reason for wanting a manual than most owners; he spends all day in a paddle-shift car. Whether he said it in jest or not doesn't change that.

I get the impression you just like making comments about things without giving any research into them.

Don't blame it on me just replying for the sake of it; you're the one making these comments. Be prepared to back them up.

 

if you think I'm stupid for the comments I make, I can't really stop you there.

how about I save you some work - let's just agree that I'm stupid, so you don't have to feel the need in the future to respond to what I say.

 

point taken, that might be possible. although, you are making an assumption, since we don't have a serious quote from him saying why exactly he did what he did.
Welcome to the internet. People read and see things, people respond. And last time I checked, they don't research every sentence they make before saying it. I think that's just people like you who do that.

I don't even know why we are talking so serious about this, people (like me) just made some comments about preferring MT and I actually did say *why* I prefer it, and I then also said I don't have a problem with the paddle-shift methods, and that was that. For some reason you choose to react the way you do. This is just an internet discussion thread, we are not writing research papers here. We read and comment on news stories. And generally speaking we can do it in a civilized manner. It's people like you who disrupt that regular communication.

 

You're right, we don't. But what article reports is closer in relation to what I said.
And there's my reply to you.

Whether or not you think before making comments doesn't excuse you from your ignorance or from anyone replying to it.

And just some honest advice; bringing up anything not in relation to the topic like post counts, posting styles, responses, or whatever shows everyone else you no longer have the ability to discuss the actual topic anymore & that you have to resort to something else to try to make your point.
You made a post that was obviously in reply to me & ttribe about the way a DCT feels in relation more to a manual than an automatic & took it that we meant it in the same sense as driving feeling.

Then you finished that post up with a "solution" to all the confusion regarding manuals.
There was no confusion, we are all aware of what makes a manual fun to some. It's the notion that you were going to clear the confusion by "spelling it out". The reasons you ended up giving though, were complete exaggeration of most manual owners.

I challenged your post & you replied back. So, you can stop continuously playing the silly little, "I just posting my opinion & did not say anything wrong". The evidence is just a page back.

 

Ah, so that's what triggered your response to this. This is you just taking what I said personally and too literally. People say sh*t all the time all over the place on the internet. Again, welcome to the internet. If you can't handle it, turn your computer off. Don't take things so damn personally.

 

Also, this is not the first time we've butted heads like this. Each and every time, it's been you taking things literally, seriously, personally. Lighten up, I don't mean any harm. When I said that I'll spell it out since there's some confusion, there is some obvious tongue-in-cheek going on there.

 

Did nothing of the sort. You responded to a post I made, I responded back because you confused what I meant.
So that's an excuse to say stupid shit? Here's 1 better. I can reply to whatever I see fit.

Take your own advice, bud. It's the internet & if you can't handle people responding to your comments, maybe you need to turn your computer off, & go outside to take some more pictures of the club or Chicago or whatever.

There's absolutely nothing personal about this, either, so you can quit trying to play that card. I'm not the one shedding tears about someone replying to my posts.

 

not sure why we are having this conversation then.

 

I was posting the quote in support of your statement

 

Don't understand why you bother with someone who considers the 911 a flawed design

"Quote:
Originally Posted by srika
the rear engine design that is a descendant of VW and the Beetle, is its glaring imperfection.

Originally posted by me
"Glaring imperfection" are you really that ignorant? Are you cognizant of what percentage of the top 50 production car lap times at Nurburgring involved this "glaring imperfection."

I guess the countless racing wins around the world with 911s fraught with "glaring imperfections" were all just flukes then? That entire racing series such as the Porsche Cup which utilize cars with "glaring imperfections" renders them pointless and trivial?

I wouldn't call it an imperfection. I for one like that the rear-end slides as I'm accelerating around a turn and I have spent considerable seat time in a Cayman S. Many professional drivers seem to share my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the Porsche forums are filled with mid-engine/Cayman vs. rear-engine/911 debate. The mid-engine certainly deserves merit, but for you to belittle the rich heritage of the modern 911 engine is so ludicrous as to be amusing"

 

The proof is in the pudding

My boy's Cup car



and his daily



Different strokes for different folks

 

Went straight for the old handbook of Clarkson, did he?

BTW, great design on your buddy's Cup car.

 

That comment I made was about early 911s and the key notorious issue they were known for. They have since honed and fine-tuned that over the past couple of decades to where it's an incredible car now. I think I made an error in saying that there was still some current application, there isn't.