Porsche: 911 News
06-17-2011, 11:02 PM
#841
Senior Moderator
06-28-2011, 07:50 PM
#842
Suzuka Master
C&D test drives the 991
* Carrera S to have 400 HP
* Carrera to have 350 HP, share 3.4l engine w/ Boxster S
* 2 trannys: 7-spd manual and 7-spd PDK
* Launch Control available on both transmissions
* 2.5 in longer, 4 in longer wheelbase
* longer wheel base to accommodate HYBRID drivetrain in 2016 mid-cycle refresh
* 12-15% improved fuel efficiency (euro cycle)
* electronic parking brake
* full-length sunroof
* 19-in wheels standard on Carrera, 20-in on Carrera S (20s optional on Carrera)
I do not like the interior
FEATURE: THE DESERT FOX
THE DESERT FOX
Porsche's new 911 is in final development in South Africa. We tag along for a ride.
by Juergen Zoellter
Beyond the lift-throttle oversteer, beyond the repair bills, and beyond the accusations of sexual inadequacy, most Porschephiles' longest-standing fear is that Zuffenhausen is going to screw up the 911. This is especially true when they know there are big changes coming. Well, this new 911, code-named 991 and set to debut in September, is larger and built to accommodate a hybrid powertrain. How's that for terrifying? Kinda makes watercooled engines seem like small- er cup holders, no? But if our first experience with the preproduction car is any indication, there's nothing to fear.
We have flown to South Africa to join August Achleitner, the man known as "Mr. 911," responsible for all 911-series cars, and 991 project leader Bernd Kahnan for the car's final chassis-tune shakedown. First question to Achleitner: "How will you keep the soul of the 911 intact?" He smiles and urges calm. "We sharpened the 911 by making it faster, more responsive, safer, and more environmentally friendly. But we didn't mess it up!"
That's certainly true of the bodywork, which is stretched and pulled but still unmistakably 911, even under the camouflage. The car's body is 2.2 inches longer than the outgoing 997 and sits on a 4.0-inch-longer wheelbase. This is to make real estate available for the coming-for-2016 hybrid version's electric motor and components. The front and rear overhangs are shorter, by 1.3 and 0.5 inch respectively, and the car's roofline is lower by 0.5 inch. Because our particular 911 S is outfitted with the sport suspension, it crouches an additional 0.7 inch closer to the pavement.
Dimensional changes to the greenhouse may seem equally small on paper, but they have the effect of making the whole car look sleeker. The windshield is more convex and its rake faster in the interest of aerodynamics -- the new 911's Cd is a claimed 0.29, identical to the 997's. Porsche moved the base of the A-pillars forward by 1.4 inches. And the center bottom of the glass punches out by a meaningful 3.2 inches so that, in combination with a full-length sunroof and more shoulder room, the cabin feels much airier than before. But the back seat is still only useful for the tiniest of children and dogs. Standing on 19- (regular 911) and 20-inch (911 S, optional for 911) wheels, the 991 looks ready to pounce.
Sliding into the car's seat is as easy as ever. The shells are made of aluminum and covered with flat, leather-wrapped pads, offering the comfort and lateral support we've come to expect from a 911. The major differences inside are the Panamera-like door trim, gauges, and sweeping center console, which sacrifices the 911's mechanical parking brake to the electronic gods. But thanks to the higher position of the shorter gear lever, the distance your right hand has to move from the steering wheel to the gearshifter is lessened. Small compensation for all the shared parts and the loss of the auxiliary steering control between the seats.
Crank the key with your left hand, and the engine wakes up with a low-frequency belch and a high-frequency whine. Sort of like a mother-in-law. The Carrera S is powered by the 3.8-liter flat-six with direct injection. It makes 400 horsepower at 7200 rpm, and the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 7600 rpm. The power is chopped up by either a seven-speed manual gearbox (yes, that's seven speeds) or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF.
The base 911 loses the 3.6-liter; it now shares the 3.4-liter, direct-injected flat-six with the Boxster S. In the 911, it makes 350 horsepower at 6400 rpm and max torque of 280 pound-feet between 4400 and 6000 rpm. Like the Carrera S, it also offers the choice of ZF's manual or dual-clutch automatic seven-speed.
Porsche gave us a provisional 0-to-60 time of 4.5 seconds and a top speed of 186 mph. Launch control, a feature that will no longer be exclusive to PDK-equipped versions of the 911, should shave considerable time from that conservative sprint figure (we launched the previous Carrera S manual to 60 in 3.9 seconds).
Why are we so sure this bigger car will be quicker? Because it's lighter. Its curb weight is some 55 pounds lower than the 997's due to more extensive use of high-strength steel. And the hybrid version, with its aluminum chassis components and roughly 80-percent high-strength steel, will shave off an additional 22 pounds.
But, as noted, the hybrid Carrera S is four years away; it is due to arrive with the car's midcycle refresh. Even without dual-source power, though, the 2012 911 posts significantly better consumption figures than those of the outgoing car: On the European combined cycle, the 991 quaffs between 12 and 15 percent less fuel, depending on the engine and transmission configuration.
Achleitner hops behind the wheel and heads into the Hawequa Mountains on narrow R101 North out of Paarl. He changes throttle position more than is strictly necessary in order to demonstrate the flat-six's responsiveness. It sounds great -- roaring and burbling under increasing load, snarling menacingly after the engine comes on the cam at 3600 rpm. Above 6000 rpm, the sound coming from behind us is like that of a chain saw tearing down an oak. But we were long gone before we could check for sawdust.
As with the classic, raunchy engine note, steering sensitivity is one of the things that makes a 911 a 911. The development crew was intent on preserving its feel with the new electric-assisted system. "And yet," Achleitner tells us, "it does not transmit as much impact from bad surfaces as before." As we watch his hands work the wheel, we witness no corrections, not even slight ones, at high speed on rough surfaces -- a fairly large change from the more nervous 997.
Achleitner also demonstrates the car's reduced tendency to understeer at tight corner entries. The car reacts more neutrally and does not jiggle over expansion joints anymore due to the fitting of softer anti-roll bars and a 2.1-inch-wider track (60.6 inches) up front. Additionally, the new torque-vectoring differential helps to stabilize the car's back end during load changes in corners. The limited slip provides up to 28-percent lock under throttle and opens completely when you lift.
There was plenty of adjustment work needed in implementing new parts, as Achleitner explains: "For example, carrying over the dynamic engine mounts from the GT3 and the 911 Turbo is relatively simple. But to adjust them to work properly took us thousands of kilometers to dial in." It seems to have been worth the trouble. From the passenger seat, the 991 comes across as the most stable 911 ever built, with minimal loss of directional stability during braking and less front-end washout at the limit.
Of course, this new 911 comes with separate buttons for damper adjustment and dynamic driving modes, as well as the special "journalist button" to fully deactivate stability control, or as Porsche calls it, PSM (Porsche Stability Management). The system stays idle as long as the driver doesn't touch the brake pedal, at which point PSM kicks in again.
But what about the Nürburgring times, Achleitner? No Porsche story is complete without those! The regular 991 does it in 8 minutes 4 seconds, the 991 S in 7:50. "With the best setup, we did 7:37," he says. For some reason, he doesn't want to tell us what his best setup looks like. Maybe it's with the optional carbon-ceramic brakes. Or maybe it's all the little things adding up, as always.
* Carrera S to have 400 HP
* Carrera to have 350 HP, share 3.4l engine w/ Boxster S
* 2 trannys: 7-spd manual and 7-spd PDK
* Launch Control available on both transmissions
* 2.5 in longer, 4 in longer wheelbase
* longer wheel base to accommodate HYBRID drivetrain in 2016 mid-cycle refresh
* 12-15% improved fuel efficiency (euro cycle)
* electronic parking brake
* full-length sunroof
* 19-in wheels standard on Carrera, 20-in on Carrera S (20s optional on Carrera)
I do not like the interior
FEATURE: THE DESERT FOX
THE DESERT FOX
Porsche's new 911 is in final development in South Africa. We tag along for a ride.
by Juergen Zoellter
Beyond the lift-throttle oversteer, beyond the repair bills, and beyond the accusations of sexual inadequacy, most Porschephiles' longest-standing fear is that Zuffenhausen is going to screw up the 911. This is especially true when they know there are big changes coming. Well, this new 911, code-named 991 and set to debut in September, is larger and built to accommodate a hybrid powertrain. How's that for terrifying? Kinda makes watercooled engines seem like small- er cup holders, no? But if our first experience with the preproduction car is any indication, there's nothing to fear.
We have flown to South Africa to join August Achleitner, the man known as "Mr. 911," responsible for all 911-series cars, and 991 project leader Bernd Kahnan for the car's final chassis-tune shakedown. First question to Achleitner: "How will you keep the soul of the 911 intact?" He smiles and urges calm. "We sharpened the 911 by making it faster, more responsive, safer, and more environmentally friendly. But we didn't mess it up!"
That's certainly true of the bodywork, which is stretched and pulled but still unmistakably 911, even under the camouflage. The car's body is 2.2 inches longer than the outgoing 997 and sits on a 4.0-inch-longer wheelbase. This is to make real estate available for the coming-for-2016 hybrid version's electric motor and components. The front and rear overhangs are shorter, by 1.3 and 0.5 inch respectively, and the car's roofline is lower by 0.5 inch. Because our particular 911 S is outfitted with the sport suspension, it crouches an additional 0.7 inch closer to the pavement.
Dimensional changes to the greenhouse may seem equally small on paper, but they have the effect of making the whole car look sleeker. The windshield is more convex and its rake faster in the interest of aerodynamics -- the new 911's Cd is a claimed 0.29, identical to the 997's. Porsche moved the base of the A-pillars forward by 1.4 inches. And the center bottom of the glass punches out by a meaningful 3.2 inches so that, in combination with a full-length sunroof and more shoulder room, the cabin feels much airier than before. But the back seat is still only useful for the tiniest of children and dogs. Standing on 19- (regular 911) and 20-inch (911 S, optional for 911) wheels, the 991 looks ready to pounce.
Sliding into the car's seat is as easy as ever. The shells are made of aluminum and covered with flat, leather-wrapped pads, offering the comfort and lateral support we've come to expect from a 911. The major differences inside are the Panamera-like door trim, gauges, and sweeping center console, which sacrifices the 911's mechanical parking brake to the electronic gods. But thanks to the higher position of the shorter gear lever, the distance your right hand has to move from the steering wheel to the gearshifter is lessened. Small compensation for all the shared parts and the loss of the auxiliary steering control between the seats.
Crank the key with your left hand, and the engine wakes up with a low-frequency belch and a high-frequency whine. Sort of like a mother-in-law. The Carrera S is powered by the 3.8-liter flat-six with direct injection. It makes 400 horsepower at 7200 rpm, and the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 7600 rpm. The power is chopped up by either a seven-speed manual gearbox (yes, that's seven speeds) or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF.
The base 911 loses the 3.6-liter; it now shares the 3.4-liter, direct-injected flat-six with the Boxster S. In the 911, it makes 350 horsepower at 6400 rpm and max torque of 280 pound-feet between 4400 and 6000 rpm. Like the Carrera S, it also offers the choice of ZF's manual or dual-clutch automatic seven-speed.
Porsche gave us a provisional 0-to-60 time of 4.5 seconds and a top speed of 186 mph. Launch control, a feature that will no longer be exclusive to PDK-equipped versions of the 911, should shave considerable time from that conservative sprint figure (we launched the previous Carrera S manual to 60 in 3.9 seconds).
Why are we so sure this bigger car will be quicker? Because it's lighter. Its curb weight is some 55 pounds lower than the 997's due to more extensive use of high-strength steel. And the hybrid version, with its aluminum chassis components and roughly 80-percent high-strength steel, will shave off an additional 22 pounds.
But, as noted, the hybrid Carrera S is four years away; it is due to arrive with the car's midcycle refresh. Even without dual-source power, though, the 2012 911 posts significantly better consumption figures than those of the outgoing car: On the European combined cycle, the 991 quaffs between 12 and 15 percent less fuel, depending on the engine and transmission configuration.
Achleitner hops behind the wheel and heads into the Hawequa Mountains on narrow R101 North out of Paarl. He changes throttle position more than is strictly necessary in order to demonstrate the flat-six's responsiveness. It sounds great -- roaring and burbling under increasing load, snarling menacingly after the engine comes on the cam at 3600 rpm. Above 6000 rpm, the sound coming from behind us is like that of a chain saw tearing down an oak. But we were long gone before we could check for sawdust.
As with the classic, raunchy engine note, steering sensitivity is one of the things that makes a 911 a 911. The development crew was intent on preserving its feel with the new electric-assisted system. "And yet," Achleitner tells us, "it does not transmit as much impact from bad surfaces as before." As we watch his hands work the wheel, we witness no corrections, not even slight ones, at high speed on rough surfaces -- a fairly large change from the more nervous 997.
Achleitner also demonstrates the car's reduced tendency to understeer at tight corner entries. The car reacts more neutrally and does not jiggle over expansion joints anymore due to the fitting of softer anti-roll bars and a 2.1-inch-wider track (60.6 inches) up front. Additionally, the new torque-vectoring differential helps to stabilize the car's back end during load changes in corners. The limited slip provides up to 28-percent lock under throttle and opens completely when you lift.
There was plenty of adjustment work needed in implementing new parts, as Achleitner explains: "For example, carrying over the dynamic engine mounts from the GT3 and the 911 Turbo is relatively simple. But to adjust them to work properly took us thousands of kilometers to dial in." It seems to have been worth the trouble. From the passenger seat, the 991 comes across as the most stable 911 ever built, with minimal loss of directional stability during braking and less front-end washout at the limit.
Of course, this new 911 comes with separate buttons for damper adjustment and dynamic driving modes, as well as the special "journalist button" to fully deactivate stability control, or as Porsche calls it, PSM (Porsche Stability Management). The system stays idle as long as the driver doesn't touch the brake pedal, at which point PSM kicks in again.
But what about the Nürburgring times, Achleitner? No Porsche story is complete without those! The regular 991 does it in 8 minutes 4 seconds, the 991 S in 7:50. "With the best setup, we did 7:37," he says. For some reason, he doesn't want to tell us what his best setup looks like. Maybe it's with the optional carbon-ceramic brakes. Or maybe it's all the little things adding up, as always.
06-28-2011, 09:06 PM
#843
אני עומד עם ישראל
7 Speed Manual?? 
06-29-2011, 01:34 AM
#845
6-speed manuals should be the norm.... 7-speed for performance cars with a healthy amount of low-end torque
wtf is this PDK crap? Porsche DopplegangerKlunkerfugen?
wtf is this PDK crap? Porsche DopplegangerKlunkerfugen?
06-29-2011, 11:44 AM
#846
Team Owner
How does Launch Control work with stick??
06-29-2011, 01:40 PM
#848
Suzuka Master
Interior is perfect for 65 year-old status-whore grandpas and their trophy girlfriends. Porsche is going in the wrong direction and is going to alienate younger owners
Electronic brake, WTF is this a Lexus 460?
Electronic steering? BMW Z4 had this, I did not like.
20 inch wheels? Wrong.
May have to look harder at the 3.4L 350HP new Cayman S or move to the R8 (6 speed)
BTW here's more pics
06-29-2011, 02:24 PM
#849
If it's like the 2010+ Camaro SS and Corvette, then while at a stop, clutch in, depress gas pedal to floor, RPMs will automatically drop to the predetermined level... Then quickly release clutch. Computer will automatically cut engine power intermittently during launch to mitigate wheelspin.
If not, it should still be fairly simple
If not, it should still be fairly simple
06-29-2011, 03:09 PM
#850
Suzuka Master
This echos my sentiment regarding the 991
"I would hail the new car if it had the same widebody or smaller, tidier/simplified interior, smaller size, and no added electronic gizmos (which add nothing to sport driving and perhaps lessen it). These changes are favoring the boulevard driver who buys Porsche for the badge and enviro concerns - that's all.
P.S. - 20" rims on the S? What's the sport value on that?"
"I would hail the new car if it had the same widebody or smaller, tidier/simplified interior, smaller size, and no added electronic gizmos (which add nothing to sport driving and perhaps lessen it). These changes are favoring the boulevard driver who buys Porsche for the badge and enviro concerns - that's all.
P.S. - 20" rims on the S? What's the sport value on that?"
06-29-2011, 06:18 PM
#851
Team Owner
If it's like the 2010+ Camaro SS and Corvette, then while at a stop, clutch in, depress gas pedal to floor, RPMs will automatically drop to the predetermined level... Then quickly release clutch. Computer will automatically cut engine power intermittently during launch to mitigate wheelspin.
If not, it should still be fairly simple
If not, it should still be fairly simple
am i the only one who already lost track with Porsche's line up?
There are so many Carrera, Turbo, GT-X variations i don't even know what is what...
06-29-2011, 06:43 PM
#852
This echos my sentiment regarding the 991
"I would hail the new car if it had the same widebody or smaller, tidier/simplified interior, smaller size, and no added electronic gizmos (which add nothing to sport driving and perhaps lessen it). These changes are favoring the boulevard driver who buys Porsche for the badge and enviro concerns - that's all.
P.S. - 20" rims on the S? What's the sport value on that?"
"I would hail the new car if it had the same widebody or smaller, tidier/simplified interior, smaller size, and no added electronic gizmos (which add nothing to sport driving and perhaps lessen it). These changes are favoring the boulevard driver who buys Porsche for the badge and enviro concerns - that's all.
P.S. - 20" rims on the S? What's the sport value on that?"
Why make the Cayenne?
Why make the Panamera?
Why so many variants of everything?
The truth is the purists may not like what they see... but what they want to see may not be the most popular/profitable option. Good for Porsche, but personally I'm in the enthusiast crowd and don't give a crap about how much Porsche sells or makes. Just playing devil's advocate.
06-29-2011, 07:19 PM
#853
Suzuka Master
Porsche wants to make a panamera coupe. What fckin purpose is that for? At least i have the gt3 as an option but seriously R8 just keeps looking better. Cayman R is going to be the new 911.
06-29-2011, 09:30 PM
#854
Senior Moderator
OK i gotta ask. What does the R8 have that appeals to you so much over this 991?
Not like the R8 is a stripped out sports car. It also has a luxurious interior and hell the R8 is still heavier than this new 991.
Not like the R8 is a stripped out sports car. It also has a luxurious interior and hell the R8 is still heavier than this new 991.
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 06-29-2011 at 09:35 PM.
06-29-2011, 09:37 PM
#855
Not directing this at anyone, but the R8 is almost like everything the NSX replacement should have been.... IMO.
I have no idea how the ergonomics are when it comes to the R8, hence the "almost". But the looks, powerplant, etc.
I have no idea how the ergonomics are when it comes to the R8, hence the "almost". But the looks, powerplant, etc.
06-29-2011, 11:10 PM
#856
אני עומד עם ישראל
06-29-2011, 11:59 PM
#857
06-30-2011, 01:31 PM
#858
Team Owner
So now they have Cayman, Cayman S, Cayman R. What is next? Cayman RS, Cayman GT, Cayman GTS, Cayman GTR, Cayman GTS-R, Cayman RRRRRRRR
06-30-2011, 01:57 PM
#859
Suzuka Master
1. It's beautiful and rare.
2. Although 200 lbs heavier than my C2S, the HP is increased from 355 to 414 and the R8 offers quattro. I spent about 45 min behind the wheel of a Gallardo including WOT and I thought the car handled extremely well. I was cognizant of the weight discrepancy with my Porsche. However, that day had a light drizzle and the AWD inspired confidence and was quite nimble on the twisties.
3. Driving the S5 and toying around with the MMI interface leads me to believe that this system is superior to the iDrive in my 2011 528. I spent sufficient wheel time behind the Panamera S and was not a fan of the myriad buttons surrounding the center console. I much prefer a system such as the MMI, it is certainly more elegant and less cluttered than a plethora of buttons resembling the USS Enterprise.
4. The craftsmenship of the R8 is sublime. IMO one is getting many attractive features of the Gallardo at half the prize. Quattro GmBH employs over 70 workers who by hand construct over 5000 individual parts in each single R8. Besides featuring an all-aluminum monocoque, the R8 shares chassis, transmission, floorplan, etc. with the Gallardo. Again at a fracture of the cost.
5. Philosophically, Audi is going in the right direction with the R8. The all-new 2014 model will feature the brand-new twin-turbo V8. If rumors are true the R8 will dazzle with 600 hp. I look forward to seeing the debut of a detuned version of this twin-turbo V8 in next year's S8.
The new R8 will also shed 200 lbs of weight, giving the 991 Turbo a run for it's money IMO.
6. Did I mention the R8 is both rare and beautiful?
At that price point, I have also considered a low mileage 2006 F430 and a 2007 Gallardo but quite honestly the cost of service and maintenance is a big deterrent.
06-30-2011, 01:58 PM
#860
Suzuka Master
Ira, weren't you supposed to come out and visit me last year? I would definitely want you at my back when I'm cruising the streets of Waiks at 2 AM, those pythons you're rocking under the wife beater are pretty intimidating.
I would definitely want you at my back when I'm cruising the streets of Waiks at 2 AM, those pythons you're rocking under the wife beater are pretty intimidating.
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Hapa DC5 (06-30-2011)
06-30-2011, 03:01 PM
#861
Senior Moderator
Im so confused. Why on earth are you comparing a $91k car to a $150k one?!
The $160k P-car is the Turbo S which isnt weak at its current 550hp. If the 991 will be lighter then you know the next will be a monster. Shouldnt that be the model to be compared to the R8?
I will still bet you will love the new 991 once its out and you see it more. Like i said, change is hard.
The $160k P-car is the Turbo S which isnt weak at its current 550hp. If the 991 will be lighter then you know the next will be a monster. Shouldnt that be the model to be compared to the R8?
I will still bet you will love the new 991 once its out and you see it more. Like i said, change is hard.
06-30-2011, 03:06 PM
#862
Senior Moderator
M3 owners do the same thing. They complain the M3 is too main stream now, too heavy and not sporty enough. They all compare it to the GT3.
WTF. Its not even in the same price range let alone same type of car!
At least your C2S vs R8 is a little closer in comparison.
WTF. Its not even in the same price range let alone same type of car!
At least your C2S vs R8 is a little closer in comparison.
06-30-2011, 03:29 PM
#863
Suzuka Master
Im so confused. Why on earth are you comparing a $91k car to a $150k one?!
The $160k P-car is the Turbo S which isnt weak at its current 550hp. If the 991 will be lighter then you know the next will be a monster. Shouldnt that be the model to be compared to the R8?
I will still bet you will love the new 991 once its out and you see it more. Like i said, change is hard.
The $160k P-car is the Turbo S which isnt weak at its current 550hp. If the 991 will be lighter then you know the next will be a monster. Shouldnt that be the model to be compared to the R8?
I will still bet you will love the new 991 once its out and you see it more. Like i said, change is hard.
The 2014 R8 will wax the 991 non-turbo, projections are with 600 hp and 3300 lb curb weight it will supersede the R8 GT which already is running 3.2 sec on 0-60 mph. The 997.2 Turbo non-S is in the same range. That's why I'm comparing the two. It has to do with performance not price.
The Turbo S is comparable performance wise with a Veyron.
What makes you think the 991 is going to be lighter? It's longer and wider than the 997.
06-30-2011, 03:34 PM
#864
Senior Moderator
Well most people shopping for a sports car want to buy the most performance with their money. No?
Also 991 is lighter than the 997. It says so in the article you posted. No clue if the next R8 will be lighter than the 991, nothing official has been posted for it.
Also 991 is lighter than the 997. It says so in the article you posted. No clue if the next R8 will be lighter than the 991, nothing official has been posted for it.
Why are we so sure this bigger car will be quicker? Because it's lighter. Its curb weight is some 55 pounds lower than the 997's due to more extensive use of high-strength steel. And the hybrid version, with its aluminum chassis components and roughly 80-percent high-strength steel, will shave off an additional 22 pounds.
06-30-2011, 03:34 PM
#865
Suzuka Master
M3 vs. GT3 is a stretch. M3 vs. 911 is a more realistic comparison with the former being more comfortable and offering increased rear legroom and the security of a hardtop vert.
06-30-2011, 03:39 PM
#866
Suzuka Master
How much unsprung weight are 20 inch wheels going to add compared to 19? You know Porsche will make 19 inch a $1000 option. I find it hard to believe that the panoramic sunroof is not going to be a weight burden as well. If it were up to me I would go with sunroof delete and CF roof.
06-30-2011, 03:45 PM
#867
Suzuka Master
"Audi R8 Black has already showcased A5 development models with such body panels and they achieve significantly better performance while also returning better fuel economy. The transmission will include a dual clutch gearbox option termed “DSG”. The engine is very likely to be a high output version of Audi’s upcoming 4.0 Liter V8 FSI engine generating between 550 and 600 PS (441 kW; 592 bhp). The Quattro system that will be employed is expected to be a variation of the RS5′s, but with two differential’s allowing torque to be distributed between each wheel of both the front AND rear axles. The base version of the next R8 is expected to be quicker than the last version of the current R8, the R8 GT. With a projected curb weight of 3,300 lb (1,500 kg) this vehicle is expected to produce astounding performance with a projected 0-60 time of less than 3.5 seconds and a top speed in excess of 200 mph (320 km/h)."
06-30-2011, 03:51 PM
#868
אני עומד עם ישראל
LoL I was, couldn't swing it. But we will be there in January. My cousin is getting married so I'll have to hit you up! The wifey is already looking at packages, we'll definitely need to grab some dinner and drinks.
06-30-2011, 03:57 PM
#869
Suzuka Master
06-30-2011, 04:05 PM
#870
Suzuka Master
I hope so Jesal. I have an awesome relationship with my dealership and service manager and my c2s has been a true joy to own for the past 4 years. I try and keep an open mind, I thought I would hate PDK but ended up loving it so I'll save my verdict until I actually get my hands on the 991.
06-30-2011, 04:54 PM
#872
Senior Moderator
If that was the case you and I would be driving GTRs or Z06. You know that's not true.
How much unsprung weight are 20 inch wheels going to add compared to 19? You know Porsche will make 19 inch a $1000 option. I find it hard to believe that the panoramic sunroof is not going to be a weight burden as well. If it were up to me I would go with sunroof delete and CF roof.
How much unsprung weight are 20 inch wheels going to add compared to 19? You know Porsche will make 19 inch a $1000 option. I find it hard to believe that the panoramic sunroof is not going to be a weight burden as well. If it were up to me I would go with sunroof delete and CF roof.
GTR comes with 20s as well. Plus with the 991 being bigger it will be able to fit without looking bad.
No one does.
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 06-30-2011 at 04:59 PM.
06-30-2011, 05:11 PM
#873
Suzuka Master
You'd be surprised what these wheel companies can do. The optional 19inch wheels on the M3 are actually lighter than the OEM 18s. My HREs 20inch weight the same as the OEM 19s do. Im sure Porsche arent dumb to throw on heavy wheels.
GTR comes with 20s as well. Plus with the 991 being bigger it will be able to fit without looking bad.
GTR comes with 20s as well. Plus with the 991 being bigger it will be able to fit without looking bad.
Oh that's good to know. I was going to switch to 20" HRE P40s (I know cliched for Porsche). Then I found out my OEM Classic 19s are made by BBS and decided to just keep them (status whore haha).
Do you think the 20s will affect handling? The GTR I drove felt so heavy I don't think I would be able to notice the difference with lighter wheels. I'm sure it would be more significant on the track rather than around my neighborhood.
06-30-2011, 06:45 PM
#874
Suzuka Master
To quote 6Speed "Sounds like the 911 became the mini-Panamera"
InsideLine First Drive in 2012 911
Pics
http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...rsche-911.html
First Ride: 2012 Porsche 911
A Familiar Look for an All-New 911
By Andrew Frankel, Contributor | Published Jun 30, 2011
Know anyone who seriously thinks the current 911 needs replacing? Probably not. But Porsche thinks otherwise. The 2012 Porsche 911 will be replaced later this year by a car that's as new as its looks are familiar.
It might look nearly identical to the old 997 series, but almost everything about the new 991 series 911 has changed, including the philosophy behind the car itself.
We will know a lot more when we actually drive the car later in the year, but for now, after a day riding shotgun in the new 911 through the mountains of South Africa, it is safe to conclude that this is a 911 like no other we have seen to date.
What Has Porsche Done This Time?
The answer is to start again. You can argue that the changes that turn the 997 into the 991 are just as comprehensive and significant as those that ended the reign of the 993 in 1998. Sure, there is nothing quite so culturally shocking as the abandonment of air cooling for water radiators, but the overall transformation into the 991 is at least as significant.
Perhaps most fundamental is the way the new car is made. Roland Achleitner, the man in charge of reinventing the 911 says, "I am neither an aluminum nor a steel man — I am a correct materials man."
His philosophy explains not only why the bulk of the 991 is now aluminum for lightness where once it was steel, but also why ultrahigh-strength steel has been retained for use in the major crash paths, particularly in the route over the A-pillars and around the passenger safety cell. Had it been built like the 997 the car would now be a minimum of 120 pounds heavier; in fact, it is lighter by a small but still significant (and undisclosed) amount.
The next big change involves the wheelbase. Since its launch in 1963, the 911's short wheelbase has been a defining characteristic of the car much like the flat-6 engine in the trunk.
But now, and for only the fourth time in 48 years, that wheelbase has been extended. By how much we can't say, as our access to the car was made on the condition that we would keep certain details under wraps. We can say that the extra space between the wheels does more than merely provide more legroom in the back; it fundamentally affects the character of the car.
Drivetrain Remains Familiar
The engines are probably the least altered part of the car, but only because the direct-injection flat-6 (unrelated to all previous 911 engines) has only been in production since 2009. Even so, the 3.8-liter engine used in the "S" model gets a useful power gain to 400 horsepower, while the standard motor actually shrinks in size to 3.4 liters but offers 350 hp, 5 more than the old 3.6.
Porsche won't give 0-60-mph times yet, so we'll guess. Figure the base car will get there in around 4.6 seconds and the S in 4.3 seconds, an improvement of 0.1 and 0.2 second respectively. Directing this power to the rear wheels alone (though all-wheel drive is naturally in the pipeline) is Porsche's familiar PDK seven-speed gearbox. Nothing too surprising here, you might think.
That is until we realize that one of the cars charging east from South Africa's Atlantic coast toward the Indian Ocean has a manual version of this transmission. And if you thought a stick-shift PDK was a contradiction in terms, you are not alone. But there it was, complete with three pedals and seven speeds. Porsche hasn't actually said it's going to use this gearbox in production cars, nor did it talk about any alternative, so read into that what you will.
Electric Steering Invades the 911
Not content with changing the way the 911 is built or extending its wheelbase, Porsche has not been afraid to meddle with the 911's most precious possession, one even more key to the car's character than its flat-6 engine. It has replaced the hydraulic power steering used by every 911 since assistance was introduced in 1989, with an electric system.
If this sounds like a minor, backstage detail, it's not. We have yet to drive a car that's been improved by electric steering, and driven plenty that have been ruined by it.
Moreover, Achleitner freely admits that the steering of a 911 is "the most important thing to get right." He says that he spoke to a huge number of suppliers and that ZF got the job because its system is so good, "you would not be able to tell it is electric."
So What's It Like, Then?
There's a huge sense of occasion when you step into a next-generation 911, even if it's as moth-eaten as the two hard-worked prototypes pictured here. It is like going to see an all-new production of a much-loved movie: You know it will be bigger and technically more impressive, but there's no guarantee the heart and soul of the original have been preserved.
The interior, such as we could see behind the camouflage, was good. But quality, ergonomic efficiency and visual presentation have all leapt forward. This is a ****pit with much more in common with the Panamera than any previous 911, and that can only be a good thing.
Sadly our pleas for even a quick drive fall on deaf ears. Even so, there is much we can discover, even without a steering wheel to handle. The engines are as sweet as ever and spin a couple of hundred rpm higher, to something very close to 8,000 rpm. Predictably the smaller engine needs more of these revs to really perform and greater use of the gears, but in a car such as this, many might think of that a bonus.
Despite a near identical output, the 3.8-liter unit is not in the same specification as it is in the Carrera GTS, but you'd need the two side by side to tell the difference. It is smooth and more responsive in the midrange than you'd credit an engine that, let's not forget, is pumping out well over 100 hp per liter.
This is probably the right time to mention that both engines also produce substantial improvements in fuel consumption. The final figures are not yet in, but they're likely to register a double-digit percentage gain.
Handling Feels Spot On
But as the 911s head up into the mountains, it is not the acceleration provided by those engines, or the near instantaneous shifts of the PDK box that most grab your attention. It is the chassis.
We're in the 3.8-liter car and have asked Achleitner to drive as fast as he knows how, which, you'll not be surprised to know, is really rather fast. What's curious is the apparent disconnect between the way the car is attacking the mountain road and the complete lack of drama in the cabin.
Part of this is because both the driver and the electronic safety nets are both very good at their jobs, but so, too, does the 911 appear to have found a state of grace missing even from the 997. Once he comes steaming into a downhill left-hand corner, apparently too fast, forcing him to stand on the brakes as he turns into the curve, just as the camber of the road starts to drop away. It's a situation that would have given even a 997 more work than it would have felt comfortable doing, but the 991 simply sheds all the necessary speed as if it had been braking on a flat, smooth and straight road.
What can be read into this? Clearly that Porsche's goal of making the 911 more stable and secure than ever before has been realized. However good the driver and support systems, any car that can do what that car did is an exceptionally safe device. To be driven in this car and think its bloodline runs back to those twitchy, tricky devices of the mid-1960s is to see how very, very far the 911 has come in the last 45 years.
What's Left?
But still there remains something we don't know, something we will not find out until Porsche allows us to swap seats and actually drive the 991. And that is the price that has been paid for this newfound security. Until we can sit with the wheel in our hands and feel the response through our fingers, it's hard to say how much is the car and how much is the driver.
We can say that we would be astounded if the 991 is anything other than a capable, effective and shockingly fast coupe, no matter the driver. We know from the quality of its ride and quietness in its cabin that it will be better over long distances than any other 911. Only one question remains: After all is said and done, will it also be regarded as a great 911? Only driving it can tell us that.
__________________
InsideLine First Drive in 2012 911
Pics
http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...rsche-911.html
First Ride: 2012 Porsche 911
A Familiar Look for an All-New 911
By Andrew Frankel, Contributor | Published Jun 30, 2011
Know anyone who seriously thinks the current 911 needs replacing? Probably not. But Porsche thinks otherwise. The 2012 Porsche 911 will be replaced later this year by a car that's as new as its looks are familiar.
It might look nearly identical to the old 997 series, but almost everything about the new 991 series 911 has changed, including the philosophy behind the car itself.
We will know a lot more when we actually drive the car later in the year, but for now, after a day riding shotgun in the new 911 through the mountains of South Africa, it is safe to conclude that this is a 911 like no other we have seen to date.
What Has Porsche Done This Time?
The answer is to start again. You can argue that the changes that turn the 997 into the 991 are just as comprehensive and significant as those that ended the reign of the 993 in 1998. Sure, there is nothing quite so culturally shocking as the abandonment of air cooling for water radiators, but the overall transformation into the 991 is at least as significant.
Perhaps most fundamental is the way the new car is made. Roland Achleitner, the man in charge of reinventing the 911 says, "I am neither an aluminum nor a steel man — I am a correct materials man."
His philosophy explains not only why the bulk of the 991 is now aluminum for lightness where once it was steel, but also why ultrahigh-strength steel has been retained for use in the major crash paths, particularly in the route over the A-pillars and around the passenger safety cell. Had it been built like the 997 the car would now be a minimum of 120 pounds heavier; in fact, it is lighter by a small but still significant (and undisclosed) amount.
The next big change involves the wheelbase. Since its launch in 1963, the 911's short wheelbase has been a defining characteristic of the car much like the flat-6 engine in the trunk.
But now, and for only the fourth time in 48 years, that wheelbase has been extended. By how much we can't say, as our access to the car was made on the condition that we would keep certain details under wraps. We can say that the extra space between the wheels does more than merely provide more legroom in the back; it fundamentally affects the character of the car.
Drivetrain Remains Familiar
The engines are probably the least altered part of the car, but only because the direct-injection flat-6 (unrelated to all previous 911 engines) has only been in production since 2009. Even so, the 3.8-liter engine used in the "S" model gets a useful power gain to 400 horsepower, while the standard motor actually shrinks in size to 3.4 liters but offers 350 hp, 5 more than the old 3.6.
Porsche won't give 0-60-mph times yet, so we'll guess. Figure the base car will get there in around 4.6 seconds and the S in 4.3 seconds, an improvement of 0.1 and 0.2 second respectively. Directing this power to the rear wheels alone (though all-wheel drive is naturally in the pipeline) is Porsche's familiar PDK seven-speed gearbox. Nothing too surprising here, you might think.
That is until we realize that one of the cars charging east from South Africa's Atlantic coast toward the Indian Ocean has a manual version of this transmission. And if you thought a stick-shift PDK was a contradiction in terms, you are not alone. But there it was, complete with three pedals and seven speeds. Porsche hasn't actually said it's going to use this gearbox in production cars, nor did it talk about any alternative, so read into that what you will.
Electric Steering Invades the 911
Not content with changing the way the 911 is built or extending its wheelbase, Porsche has not been afraid to meddle with the 911's most precious possession, one even more key to the car's character than its flat-6 engine. It has replaced the hydraulic power steering used by every 911 since assistance was introduced in 1989, with an electric system.
If this sounds like a minor, backstage detail, it's not. We have yet to drive a car that's been improved by electric steering, and driven plenty that have been ruined by it.
Moreover, Achleitner freely admits that the steering of a 911 is "the most important thing to get right." He says that he spoke to a huge number of suppliers and that ZF got the job because its system is so good, "you would not be able to tell it is electric."
So What's It Like, Then?
There's a huge sense of occasion when you step into a next-generation 911, even if it's as moth-eaten as the two hard-worked prototypes pictured here. It is like going to see an all-new production of a much-loved movie: You know it will be bigger and technically more impressive, but there's no guarantee the heart and soul of the original have been preserved.
The interior, such as we could see behind the camouflage, was good. But quality, ergonomic efficiency and visual presentation have all leapt forward. This is a ****pit with much more in common with the Panamera than any previous 911, and that can only be a good thing.
Sadly our pleas for even a quick drive fall on deaf ears. Even so, there is much we can discover, even without a steering wheel to handle. The engines are as sweet as ever and spin a couple of hundred rpm higher, to something very close to 8,000 rpm. Predictably the smaller engine needs more of these revs to really perform and greater use of the gears, but in a car such as this, many might think of that a bonus.
Despite a near identical output, the 3.8-liter unit is not in the same specification as it is in the Carrera GTS, but you'd need the two side by side to tell the difference. It is smooth and more responsive in the midrange than you'd credit an engine that, let's not forget, is pumping out well over 100 hp per liter.
This is probably the right time to mention that both engines also produce substantial improvements in fuel consumption. The final figures are not yet in, but they're likely to register a double-digit percentage gain.
Handling Feels Spot On
But as the 911s head up into the mountains, it is not the acceleration provided by those engines, or the near instantaneous shifts of the PDK box that most grab your attention. It is the chassis.
We're in the 3.8-liter car and have asked Achleitner to drive as fast as he knows how, which, you'll not be surprised to know, is really rather fast. What's curious is the apparent disconnect between the way the car is attacking the mountain road and the complete lack of drama in the cabin.
Part of this is because both the driver and the electronic safety nets are both very good at their jobs, but so, too, does the 911 appear to have found a state of grace missing even from the 997. Once he comes steaming into a downhill left-hand corner, apparently too fast, forcing him to stand on the brakes as he turns into the curve, just as the camber of the road starts to drop away. It's a situation that would have given even a 997 more work than it would have felt comfortable doing, but the 991 simply sheds all the necessary speed as if it had been braking on a flat, smooth and straight road.
What can be read into this? Clearly that Porsche's goal of making the 911 more stable and secure than ever before has been realized. However good the driver and support systems, any car that can do what that car did is an exceptionally safe device. To be driven in this car and think its bloodline runs back to those twitchy, tricky devices of the mid-1960s is to see how very, very far the 911 has come in the last 45 years.
What's Left?
But still there remains something we don't know, something we will not find out until Porsche allows us to swap seats and actually drive the 991. And that is the price that has been paid for this newfound security. Until we can sit with the wheel in our hands and feel the response through our fingers, it's hard to say how much is the car and how much is the driver.
We can say that we would be astounded if the 991 is anything other than a capable, effective and shockingly fast coupe, no matter the driver. We know from the quality of its ride and quietness in its cabin that it will be better over long distances than any other 911. Only one question remains: After all is said and done, will it also be regarded as a great 911? Only driving it can tell us that.
__________________
06-30-2011, 07:26 PM
#875
Senior Moderator
Oh that's good to know. I was going to switch to 20" HRE P40s (I know cliched for Porsche). Then I found out my OEM Classic 19s are made by BBS and decided to just keep them (status whore haha).
Do you think the 20s will affect handling? The GTR I drove felt so heavy I don't think I would be able to notice the difference with lighter wheels. I'm sure it would be more significant on the track rather than around my neighborhood.
Do you think the 20s will affect handling? The GTR I drove felt so heavy I don't think I would be able to notice the difference with lighter wheels. I'm sure it would be more significant on the track rather than around my neighborhood.
AS long as they can put on a decent amount of sidewall then 20s will be fine in terms of handing.
The following users liked this post:
Dr. Colorado (06-30-2011)
06-30-2011, 07:32 PM
#876
Senior Moderator
Rick, why are you comparing a car that comes out in 2014 (R8) to a car that comes out 2 years (I think) before then (991)? Is your potential buying period 2+ years long?
If you dont like the 991, are you planning on potentially waiting 2 years for the R8? Just curious.
If you dont like the 991, are you planning on potentially waiting 2 years for the R8? Just curious.
Last edited by West6MT; 06-30-2011 at 07:34 PM.
06-30-2011, 07:45 PM
#877
He just wants something different admit it....
Stats on paper only go so far. Some of my favorite vehicles are the slowest, heaviest and technologically un-advanced things out on the road today.
admit it....Stats on paper only go so far. Some of my favorite vehicles are the slowest, heaviest and technologically un-advanced things out on the road today.
06-30-2011, 10:32 PM
#878
Suzuka Master
One of my boys expressed his interest in taking the C2S off my hands and that got the ball rolling. Well I didn't find anything I wanted (only new R8s here were 5.2 verts and I wasn't ready to make the $160K plunge just yet) and I couldn't find any low mileage 4.2 R8s on the left coast for <$100K. So I ended up getting a 3 year extended warranty on the Porsche for a very good price through my dealership. This gave me the luxury of not being pressed for time in satisfying my new car jones.
Because the R8 maintains it's value like few other cars on the market, it looked like I would only shave 20% or so off the original MSRP on a 4 year-old R8. So then I started looking into ordering a new one, stripper 4.2 6speed with just the MMI/Nav and B&O. Except it's 5-6 month wait because it's so low production. Couple that with the major refresh of the R8 in 2014 (that should debut in the 2nd half of 2013 which is only 2 years away) and I figured I might as well wait.
This also allows me to sample the 991. If I'm unhappy with the 991, a low mileage 997.2 with PDK and Sports Chrono becomes another option. I looked into a GT3 already but it's not suitable for my DD needs and the Turbo is too heavy for my city street commute.
I have also thought about a 2012 GTR but it's still like the fat chick who gives the best blowjob. Sure, the head is phenomenal but do I still have to look at her face in the morning?
I'm open for other recommendations. 3 of my patients work for BMW and they keep telling me to wait for the 2013 M6 but I'm not a fan of the body style.
06 F430 or 07 Gallardo are within fiscal reach but are they suitable daily drivers? If I get the Gallardo will I always have buyer's remorse for not getting the LP560?
06-30-2011, 11:11 PM
#880
Senior Moderator
Long story short I bought GF an alpine white 528 a couple months back and got the new car itch when I was sitting in a mineral white M3 vert. I was also cognizant that my OEM 4 year warranty was due to expire June 20th (last week) and realized that 1. I wasn't willing to own my 911 out of warranty even though it's been bulletproof the last 4 years and 2. that an extended warranty was going to be several grand.
One of my boys expressed his interest in taking the C2S off my hands and that got the ball rolling. Well I didn't find anything I wanted (only new R8s here were 5.2 verts and I wasn't ready to make the $160K plunge just yet) and I couldn't find any low mileage 4.2 R8s on the left coast for <$100K. So I ended up getting a 3 year extended warranty on the Porsche for a very good price through my dealership. This gave me the luxury of not being pressed for time in satisfying my new car jones.
Because the R8 maintains it's value like few other cars on the market, it looked like I would only shave 20% or so off the original MSRP on a 4 year-old R8. So then I started looking into ordering a new one, stripper 4.2 6speed with just the MMI/Nav and B&O. Except it's 5-6 month wait because it's so low production. Couple that with the major refresh of the R8 in 2014 (that should debut in the 2nd half of 2013 which is only 2 years away) and I figured I might as well wait.
This also allows me to sample the 991. If I'm unhappy with the 991, a low mileage 997.2 with PDK and Sports Chrono becomes another option. I looked into a GT3 already but it's not suitable for my DD needs and the Turbo is too heavy for my city street commute.
I have also thought about a 2012 GTR but it's still like the fat chick who gives the best blowjob. Sure, the head is phenomenal but do I still have to look at her face in the morning?
I'm open for other recommendations. 3 of my patients work for BMW and they keep telling me to wait for the 2013 M6 but I'm not a fan of the body style.
06 F430 or 07 Gallardo are within fiscal reach but are they suitable daily drivers? If I get the Gallardo will I always have buyer's remorse for not getting the LP560?
One of my boys expressed his interest in taking the C2S off my hands and that got the ball rolling. Well I didn't find anything I wanted (only new R8s here were 5.2 verts and I wasn't ready to make the $160K plunge just yet) and I couldn't find any low mileage 4.2 R8s on the left coast for <$100K. So I ended up getting a 3 year extended warranty on the Porsche for a very good price through my dealership. This gave me the luxury of not being pressed for time in satisfying my new car jones.
Because the R8 maintains it's value like few other cars on the market, it looked like I would only shave 20% or so off the original MSRP on a 4 year-old R8. So then I started looking into ordering a new one, stripper 4.2 6speed with just the MMI/Nav and B&O. Except it's 5-6 month wait because it's so low production. Couple that with the major refresh of the R8 in 2014 (that should debut in the 2nd half of 2013 which is only 2 years away) and I figured I might as well wait.
This also allows me to sample the 991. If I'm unhappy with the 991, a low mileage 997.2 with PDK and Sports Chrono becomes another option. I looked into a GT3 already but it's not suitable for my DD needs and the Turbo is too heavy for my city street commute.
I have also thought about a 2012 GTR but it's still like the fat chick who gives the best blowjob. Sure, the head is phenomenal but do I still have to look at her face in the morning?
I'm open for other recommendations. 3 of my patients work for BMW and they keep telling me to wait for the 2013 M6 but I'm not a fan of the body style.
06 F430 or 07 Gallardo are within fiscal reach but are they suitable daily drivers? If I get the Gallardo will I always have buyer's remorse for not getting the LP560?
I say meh to anything with paddles. You know you'll regret it if you don't go with another manual.
