North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**
#281
This isnt 5 years ago. Today from American makers we have:
The new Mustang, and especially the upcoming 2010 Stang
G8
CTS
Enclave
Solstice
Sky
Upcoming Camaro
Challenger
Charger
GTO
Vette
Upcoming Cruze
current Tahoe/Suburban/Escalade
New Malibu
Edge
Flex
Most of the lamba based SUV from chevy (enclave, acadia, outlook, dont love the chevy one)
Everything from Saturn's current line up looks great.
American cars have come a very long way from the last 5 years.
There a lot of great looking and well executed options. Just too many people with the ignorant stigma of "American cars BAD"
The new Mustang, and especially the upcoming 2010 Stang
G8
CTS
Enclave
Solstice
Sky
Upcoming Camaro
Challenger
Charger
GTO
Vette
Upcoming Cruze
current Tahoe/Suburban/Escalade
New Malibu
Edge
Flex
Most of the lamba based SUV from chevy (enclave, acadia, outlook, dont love the chevy one)
Everything from Saturn's current line up looks great.
American cars have come a very long way from the last 5 years.
There a lot of great looking and well executed options. Just too many people with the ignorant stigma of "American cars BAD"
Camaro
Challenger
Charger
All of these cars look like tanks on wheels. I went to a car show last week and saw them all. Sorry, but they will go end-of-life after the first model year (with exception of rental car favorite Mustang). Only people nostalgic for muscle cars and red necks will buy them.
GTO
G8
Almost the same category. Only Cadillac can sell this kind of car, so that was a waste of money.
#282
I disagree with unanimity
iTrader: (2)
Even in times like these, the UAW is still trying to tighten their deathgrip on the Big 3's nuts. Give an inch and take a mile.... they can go eat a dick if they think they're going to fool anyone into thinking they're actually trying to help GM by getting one of their own on the BOD. Just another vote "for the UAW" when it comes to manners like strikes and fighting for compensation packages for employees.
I don't think the UAW will concede until all 3 of its "parent" companies is sucked dry, kind of like AIDS. If anything this discourages me personally from buying domestic because I no way in hell want to support that useless UAW machine. I know these cars can be made cheaper and better, so if anything I'll buy used and fix it myself.
Here's a thought......How about we put the UAW in charge of the Big 3? I guarantee they will trim their costs and salaries to help turn profits.
#283
StayAtHomeDad
Auto Bailout - where your dollars will be spent...(draft version)
Hey, here are the cliffs....I will post a link for the PDF Version too....
http://krang.motortrend.com/bio/autobailoutdraft.pdf
Up to $25 billion will come from the short-termsection 136 money of the Energy Act, designated for fuel-efficient technology.
The loans are due in seven years.
Interest rate is 5 percent for the first five years; 9 percent for the remaining two years. No prepayment penalty.
The president will designate one or more Executive Branch officers to carry out the purposes of the bill (the so-called "car czar" or board). He/she will authorize and direct the disbursement of bridge loans, or loan guarantees, to General Motors, Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Company.
The car czar can look over the books of any automaker receiving the funds, or of any ownership interest holding at least 50 percent of the automaker. We're looking at you, Cerberus.
The car czar may prohibit an automaker from consummating a proposed sale, investment, contract, commitment or other transaction. We're looking at you, Chrysler. And no fair buying exotic sports carmakers, GM or Ford.
They're prohibited from suing any state over laws concerning greenhouse gas emissions standards. See California and 16 states.
The federal government will hold warrants, which assures we get paid back before shareholders receive dividends. That's GM and Ford.
Chrysler gives "a warrant for common or preferred stock, or an instrument that is the economic equivalent" of Chrysler or Cerberus.
Executive compensation: No dollar amounts. Executives cannot take "unnecessary and excessive risks that threaten the value of" manufacturing, bonuses or compensation based on performance later found to be inaccurate, and no golden parachutes.
No ownership or lease of private aircraft for the duration of the loan.
By January 1, 2009, the car czar/car board will determine how to measure progress based on the plans they submitted to Congress on December 2 in order to "transform" assistance into long-term assistance.
The car czar must evaluate the automakers' development toward restructuring every 45 days.
The car czar must report to Congress every 15 days on progress to negotiate restructuring plans for each automaker receiving money.
By March 31, each eligible automaker must submit to the car czar a long-term restructuring plan for the long-term viability and international competitiveness, resulting in repayment of the financing and ability to comply with all federal and state fuel efficiency requirements, and commencement of advanced technology vehicle manufacturing, as required in the 2007 Energy Bill.
Also due by March 31; plans for new and existing products and capacity.
They must submit plans to make profits.
They must submit plans to rationalize costs, capitalization and capacity with respect to manufacturing workforce, suppliers and dealerships.
They must submit plans to restructure existing debt.
They must show a product mix and cost structure that is competitive in the U.S. marketplace.
Once their long-term restructuring plans have been approved, the car czar may provide long-term financial assistance.
The car czar can determine which automaker gets money first, based on need and the effect of each automaker's failure.
The loans are due in seven years.
Interest rate is 5 percent for the first five years; 9 percent for the remaining two years. No prepayment penalty.
The president will designate one or more Executive Branch officers to carry out the purposes of the bill (the so-called "car czar" or board). He/she will authorize and direct the disbursement of bridge loans, or loan guarantees, to General Motors, Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Company.
The car czar can look over the books of any automaker receiving the funds, or of any ownership interest holding at least 50 percent of the automaker. We're looking at you, Cerberus.
The car czar may prohibit an automaker from consummating a proposed sale, investment, contract, commitment or other transaction. We're looking at you, Chrysler. And no fair buying exotic sports carmakers, GM or Ford.
They're prohibited from suing any state over laws concerning greenhouse gas emissions standards. See California and 16 states.
The federal government will hold warrants, which assures we get paid back before shareholders receive dividends. That's GM and Ford.
Chrysler gives "a warrant for common or preferred stock, or an instrument that is the economic equivalent" of Chrysler or Cerberus.
Executive compensation: No dollar amounts. Executives cannot take "unnecessary and excessive risks that threaten the value of" manufacturing, bonuses or compensation based on performance later found to be inaccurate, and no golden parachutes.
No ownership or lease of private aircraft for the duration of the loan.
By January 1, 2009, the car czar/car board will determine how to measure progress based on the plans they submitted to Congress on December 2 in order to "transform" assistance into long-term assistance.
The car czar must evaluate the automakers' development toward restructuring every 45 days.
The car czar must report to Congress every 15 days on progress to negotiate restructuring plans for each automaker receiving money.
By March 31, each eligible automaker must submit to the car czar a long-term restructuring plan for the long-term viability and international competitiveness, resulting in repayment of the financing and ability to comply with all federal and state fuel efficiency requirements, and commencement of advanced technology vehicle manufacturing, as required in the 2007 Energy Bill.
Also due by March 31; plans for new and existing products and capacity.
They must submit plans to make profits.
They must submit plans to rationalize costs, capitalization and capacity with respect to manufacturing workforce, suppliers and dealerships.
They must submit plans to restructure existing debt.
They must show a product mix and cost structure that is competitive in the U.S. marketplace.
Once their long-term restructuring plans have been approved, the car czar may provide long-term financial assistance.
The car czar can determine which automaker gets money first, based on need and the effect of each automaker's failure.
Last edited by wrestrepo; 12-10-2008 at 10:43 AM.
#287
Safety Car
Mustang
Camaro
Challenger
Charger
All of these cars look like tanks on wheels. I went to a car show last week and saw them all. Sorry, but they will go end-of-life after the first model year (with exception of rental car favorite Mustang). Only people nostalgic for muscle cars and red necks will buy them.
GTO
G8
Almost the same category. Only Cadillac can sell this kind of car, so that was a waste of money.
Camaro
Challenger
Charger
All of these cars look like tanks on wheels. I went to a car show last week and saw them all. Sorry, but they will go end-of-life after the first model year (with exception of rental car favorite Mustang). Only people nostalgic for muscle cars and red necks will buy them.
GTO
G8
Almost the same category. Only Cadillac can sell this kind of car, so that was a waste of money.
#288
Sorry, I meant to say 1st model cycle.
Charger is in high demand by law enforcement and somewhat fleet. So it may stay longer. But all others are just redundant. Two less doors will make it even harder to sell.
#289
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
How did this end up in ramblings?!?!?!
#290
The Third Ball
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Its because the timing was wrong for their release. Cars like the G8 garnered heaps of praise. But who wants a big engine in this economy? Not too many people. It also hasnt been marketed very well outside of enthusiasts.
There is nothing physical or mechanically wrong with any of the vehicles on my list. Just because you think they look like tanks doesnt mean anything.
#292
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
If these vehicles dont make it to a 2nd gen its not because they were no good or they werent desirable.
Its because the timing was wrong for their release. Cars like the G8 garnered heaps of praise. But who wants a big engine in this economy? Not too many people. It also hasnt been marketed very well outside of enthusiasts.
There is nothing physical or mechanically wrong with any of the vehicles on my list. Just because you think they look like tanks doesnt mean anything.
Its because the timing was wrong for their release. Cars like the G8 garnered heaps of praise. But who wants a big engine in this economy? Not too many people. It also hasnt been marketed very well outside of enthusiasts.
There is nothing physical or mechanically wrong with any of the vehicles on my list. Just because you think they look like tanks doesnt mean anything.
#295
Oderint dum metuant.
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Mustang
Camaro
Challenger
Charger
All of these cars look like tanks on wheels. I went to a car show last week and saw them all. Sorry, but they will go end-of-life after the first model year (with exception of rental car favorite Mustang). Only people nostalgic for muscle cars and red necks will buy them.
GTO
G8
Almost the same category. Only Cadillac can sell this kind of car, so that was a waste of money.
Camaro
Challenger
Charger
All of these cars look like tanks on wheels. I went to a car show last week and saw them all. Sorry, but they will go end-of-life after the first model year (with exception of rental car favorite Mustang). Only people nostalgic for muscle cars and red necks will buy them.
GTO
G8
Almost the same category. Only Cadillac can sell this kind of car, so that was a waste of money.
#296
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
#297
You know, it's funny, but I like all of the cars you list, except the Charger. If it looked better, I'd like it, too. In fact, my next car will most likely be a Challenger or Camaro. If Ford gets it together and puts some power in the Mustang, it'll be on the list, too. If I was looking for a sedan, the G8 and CTS would be on my list. And I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this way...guess we're all just a bunch of dumb rednecks.
#298
If these vehicles dont make it to a 2nd gen its not because they were no good or they werent desirable.
Its because the timing was wrong for their release. Cars like the G8 garnered heaps of praise. But who wants a big engine in this economy? Not too many people. It also hasnt been marketed very well outside of enthusiasts.
There is nothing physical or mechanically wrong with any of the vehicles on my list. Just because you think they look like tanks doesnt mean anything.
Its because the timing was wrong for their release. Cars like the G8 garnered heaps of praise. But who wants a big engine in this economy? Not too many people. It also hasnt been marketed very well outside of enthusiasts.
There is nothing physical or mechanically wrong with any of the vehicles on my list. Just because you think they look like tanks doesnt mean anything.
The big 3 developed retro looking, gas guzzling, overweight muscle cars (as well as POS PT Cruiser, HHR, etc). Sure some Americans will love it. But guess what, the rest of the world does not care about such cars, so the investment on these cars was simply stupid.
Just wait a little and they will come back begging for more billions.
#299
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Smart companies develop global cars. Case in point - Honda, a company that is struggling the least at this economic time.
The big 3 developed retro looking, gas guzzling, overweight muscle cars (as well as POS PT Cruiser, HHR, etc). Sure some Americans will love it. But guess what, the rest of the world does not care about such cars, so the investment on these cars was simply stupid.
Just wait a little and they will come back begging for more billions.
The big 3 developed retro looking, gas guzzling, overweight muscle cars (as well as POS PT Cruiser, HHR, etc). Sure some Americans will love it. But guess what, the rest of the world does not care about such cars, so the investment on these cars was simply stupid.
Just wait a little and they will come back begging for more billions.
And though Europe doesnt get muscles car for sale...it doesnt mean they dont care. Most europeans love american muscle cars.
#300
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
What gives?!?!?!
Clearly the mods are trying to drive me batty with all this thread moving
Clearly the mods are trying to drive me batty with all this thread moving
#301
We have a Czar Mod :king:
#304
Interior, sheet metal, glass, plastic components, rubber components, many electrical components, etc. They all have to be custom made for these unnecessary cars. And it’s not only the components... you also have to invest into design process as well as different molds, etc.
That's exactly why big 3 must kill many of their re-badge brands.
All Honda cars with exception of very few are sold worldwide (with minor tweaks here and there).
Acura is planning to do the same.
Also, I lived in Europe until I was 15 (travel there regularly) and I can reassure you that these cars would NOT popular in Europe. Most of the American cars are considered junk.
#305
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It's not only the platform. There is more to a car than just a platform.
Interior, sheet metal, glass, plastic components, rubber components, many electrical components, etc. They all have to be custom made for these unnecessary cars. And it’s not only the components... you also have to invest into design process as well as different molds, etc.
That's exactly why big 3 must kill many of their re-badge brands.
All Honda cars with exception of very few are sold worldwide (with minor tweaks here and there).
Acura is planning to do the same.
Also, I lived in Europe until I was 15 (travel there regularly) and I can reassure you that these cars would NOT popular in Europe. Most of the American cars are considered junk.
Interior, sheet metal, glass, plastic components, rubber components, many electrical components, etc. They all have to be custom made for these unnecessary cars. And it’s not only the components... you also have to invest into design process as well as different molds, etc.
That's exactly why big 3 must kill many of their re-badge brands.
All Honda cars with exception of very few are sold worldwide (with minor tweaks here and there).
Acura is planning to do the same.
Also, I lived in Europe until I was 15 (travel there regularly) and I can reassure you that these cars would NOT popular in Europe. Most of the American cars are considered junk.
my dick is also bigger than yours
my dad can beat up your dad
etc etc etc
#306
Muscle car (overweight, handles as a boat, gas guzzler) is an American invention. If this concept was in demand in Europe, there would be European muscle cars.
GT-R is craved all over the world since it's a high performance sports car.
GT-R is craved all over the world since it's a high performance sports car.
#307
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You want to see Euro muscle? Look at some older citroens...
European roadways aren't really set up to handle large cars which is why sport compacts have typically been more popular over there.
And where did I say in demand? Because I said enthusiasts love them?
Stop being a fucking retard and quit posting while you're ahead.
European roadways aren't really set up to handle large cars which is why sport compacts have typically been more popular over there.
And where did I say in demand? Because I said enthusiasts love them?
Stop being a fucking retard and quit posting while you're ahead.
#308
You want to see Euro muscle? Look at some older citroens...
European roadways aren't really set up to handle large cars which is why sport compacts have typically been more popular over there.
And where did I say in demand? Because I said enthusiasts love them?
Stop being a fucking retard and quit posting while you're ahead.
European roadways aren't really set up to handle large cars which is why sport compacts have typically been more popular over there.
And where did I say in demand? Because I said enthusiasts love them?
Stop being a fucking retard and quit posting while you're ahead.
Large? There are plenty of large luxury cars. Even larger than muscle cars I mentioned (S class, 7 series, A8, etc). And if you go to Eastern Europe, they are on every corner.
My entire point is that these muscle cars are useless and are only draining big 3's banks. Obviously you missed the entire point.
I'm done talking to you since you are just an arrogant kid who needs attention.
By the way, you've never even crossed the USA boarder
#309
I feel the need...
GM to Lose Control With Options of Czar or Bankruptcy
General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner’s options for the biggest U.S. automaker have dwindled to two, neither imaginable when he took the top job in 2000: Nationalization or bankruptcy.
Either way, the company is slipping away from him.
Congress holds GM’s fate as leaders rush to vote on a rescue plan. After saying bankruptcy would be a prelude to shutting the doors, Wagoner is ready to accept a so-called car czar who will dictate how GM is managed.
“They either have to liquidate, or roll the dice and swallow whatever a government-run car company is going to look like,” said Clint Currie, a transportation analyst for Stanford Group Co. in Washington. “The only thing we can know for certain is they probably won’t like a lot of the decisions. They are going to lose control of their company.”
Approval of a bailout for GM and Chrysler LLC would put automakers under U.S. direction for the first time since 1980, when the former Chrysler Corp. agreed to federal oversight in exchange for $1.8 billion in loan guarantees.
GM, reeling from almost $73 billion in losses since 2004 and a 22 percent plunge in U.S. sales this year, says it will run out of money this month without a cash infusion. In return, the Detroit-based automaker says it will accept giving warrants worth 20 percent of the $10 billion being sought in loans and appointment of a czar who would have to review and approve expenditures larger than $100 million.....
Either way, the company is slipping away from him.
Congress holds GM’s fate as leaders rush to vote on a rescue plan. After saying bankruptcy would be a prelude to shutting the doors, Wagoner is ready to accept a so-called car czar who will dictate how GM is managed.
“They either have to liquidate, or roll the dice and swallow whatever a government-run car company is going to look like,” said Clint Currie, a transportation analyst for Stanford Group Co. in Washington. “The only thing we can know for certain is they probably won’t like a lot of the decisions. They are going to lose control of their company.”
Approval of a bailout for GM and Chrysler LLC would put automakers under U.S. direction for the first time since 1980, when the former Chrysler Corp. agreed to federal oversight in exchange for $1.8 billion in loan guarantees.
GM, reeling from almost $73 billion in losses since 2004 and a 22 percent plunge in U.S. sales this year, says it will run out of money this month without a cash infusion. In return, the Detroit-based automaker says it will accept giving warrants worth 20 percent of the $10 billion being sought in loans and appointment of a czar who would have to review and approve expenditures larger than $100 million.....
#310
I feel the need...
BMW, Daimler to Gain With Detroit From U.S. Bailout
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG and Daimler AG, the largest luxury-car makers, stand to benefit more from a government rescue of the U.S. automobile industry than if their competitors go bankrupt.
A proposal to grant General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC $15 billion in emergency funding should avert a meltdown that would depress sales and drag down the financially strapped parts makers that supply the European companies’ plants both in North America and elsewhere.
“You can’t underestimate what would happen when a large player collapses,” BMW Chief Executive Officer Norbert Reithofer said yesterday in an e-mailed response to questions. “That would impact the supplier structure and therefore the entire industry.”
The U.S. is the No. 1 market for the Munich-based company and the second-biggest for Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz. Both carmakers have factories there, and while they and other German brands control about 7 percent of the American market, they compete more with each other than with GM and Ford Motor Co.....
A proposal to grant General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC $15 billion in emergency funding should avert a meltdown that would depress sales and drag down the financially strapped parts makers that supply the European companies’ plants both in North America and elsewhere.
“You can’t underestimate what would happen when a large player collapses,” BMW Chief Executive Officer Norbert Reithofer said yesterday in an e-mailed response to questions. “That would impact the supplier structure and therefore the entire industry.”
The U.S. is the No. 1 market for the Munich-based company and the second-biggest for Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz. Both carmakers have factories there, and while they and other German brands control about 7 percent of the American market, they compete more with each other than with GM and Ford Motor Co.....
#311
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
^^ dominos
#312
I feel the need...
Bernanke’s GM Rejection Aimed at Re-Establishing Rescue Limits
More than a year into the credit crisis, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke is still trying to establish how far he’s willing to go to aid troubled companies.
Bernanke, in a letter released yesterday, rejected the idea that the central bank should provide assistance to automakers, saying that such aid would involve the Fed in “industrial policy,” an area best left to Congress. The letter came in response to a Dec. 3 inquiry from Senate Banking Chairman Christopher Dodd.
The exchange reflects uncertainty over the limits of the Fed’s willingness to act following conflicting signals Bernanke has sent this year. While the Fed rescued Bear Stearns Cos. and American International Group Inc., it refused to intervene on behalf of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. -- only to see Lehman’s failure trigger widespread losses and worsen the credit crisis.
Bernanke is attempting to re-establish a clear line: that the central bank will only assist firms vital to the financial system, a definition that would exclude companies such as General Motors Corp.....
Bernanke, in a letter released yesterday, rejected the idea that the central bank should provide assistance to automakers, saying that such aid would involve the Fed in “industrial policy,” an area best left to Congress. The letter came in response to a Dec. 3 inquiry from Senate Banking Chairman Christopher Dodd.
The exchange reflects uncertainty over the limits of the Fed’s willingness to act following conflicting signals Bernanke has sent this year. While the Fed rescued Bear Stearns Cos. and American International Group Inc., it refused to intervene on behalf of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. -- only to see Lehman’s failure trigger widespread losses and worsen the credit crisis.
Bernanke is attempting to re-establish a clear line: that the central bank will only assist firms vital to the financial system, a definition that would exclude companies such as General Motors Corp.....
There was an article in the WSJ earlier this week with a brief synopsis of what needed to happen with GM, probably the most cogent I've read so far....wish I could remember the title so I can find the link and post.
#313
2G TLX-S
This is a giant black hole to try to suck the US government in. So this time around the government is handing out $15B to save the Big3 in order to prevent their total collapse from flooding the unemployment market.
How about in March next year when the Big3 is gonna ask for more ? This whole fiasco is bound to happen once again. Is the Obama government planning to cut the lifeline to the Big3 and allow massive unemployment to hit the failing US economy then ? There is absolutely no way that the Big3 is about to turn profit again within even the next 12 months. So this massive unemployment threat is going to be the effective weapon of choice by the Big3 to blackmail the government for more $$$.
How about in March next year when the Big3 is gonna ask for more ? This whole fiasco is bound to happen once again. Is the Obama government planning to cut the lifeline to the Big3 and allow massive unemployment to hit the failing US economy then ? There is absolutely no way that the Big3 is about to turn profit again within even the next 12 months. So this massive unemployment threat is going to be the effective weapon of choice by the Big3 to blackmail the government for more $$$.
#314
I feel the need...
Hey, I'm not a fan of more deficit spending -- but $15 billion is chump change in light of what's already occurred.
#315
Senior Moderator
How NOT to Spend Bailout $$$: Ford Spends $ to Hire Lawyers to Sue Fansite...
Brilliant...
Who thinks Ford will pay more than $5K in lawyer fees by the time this is over...?
From Autoblog...
Who thinks Ford will pay more than $5K in lawyer fees by the time this is over...?
From Autoblog...
As if Ford didn't have enough bad PR today after a South Carolinian dealer shout his mouth off on the radio. Now comes word that fan site TheRangerStation.com (TRS) has been contacted by the automaker's lawyers and told to cough up $5,000 and the rights to the website's domain name as a result of copyright infringement. First of all, we're just as surprised as you that there's a fan site devoted to the Ford Ranger and that the Blue Oval even remembered it still sold the Ranger.
This isn't the first time that Ford has sought to protect its trademarked names. Earlier this year it sent out lawyers to confront enthusiast magazines, websites and even parts suppliers using the Mustang name. We're not sure how those cases ended, but we can understand the Blue Oval getting antsy over unapproved use of its most famous brand. But the Ranger? We suspect that TRS ran afoul when Ford's lawyers noticed the online store at which people can buy decals and apparels bearing the website's name.
Despite what you may think of Ford's actions here, TheRangerStation.com has little wiggle room. The 10-year-old website can either pay Ford the licensing fee and seek approval for all material on its website bearing the Ranger name, or it can erase all mention of the truck's moniker from the website, including the URL. Members are currently emailing Ford to petition against these two options, so we'll see what happens.
This isn't the first time that Ford has sought to protect its trademarked names. Earlier this year it sent out lawyers to confront enthusiast magazines, websites and even parts suppliers using the Mustang name. We're not sure how those cases ended, but we can understand the Blue Oval getting antsy over unapproved use of its most famous brand. But the Ranger? We suspect that TRS ran afoul when Ford's lawyers noticed the online store at which people can buy decals and apparels bearing the website's name.
Despite what you may think of Ford's actions here, TheRangerStation.com has little wiggle room. The 10-year-old website can either pay Ford the licensing fee and seek approval for all material on its website bearing the Ranger name, or it can erase all mention of the truck's moniker from the website, including the URL. Members are currently emailing Ford to petition against these two options, so we'll see what happens.
#316
Senior Moderator
Meanwhile, I wonder if Ford's Europe division is either chortling in laughter or suffering because of the parent company's "brilliance"...?
Ford Europe:
Ford USA:
Who sees a problem in those pics...?
Ford Europe:
Ford USA:
Who sees a problem in those pics...?
#318
Senior Moderator
Ford USA:
#319
The Third Ball
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Wow. Definitely shows that you are just a 19 year old idiot who can't even communicate.
Large? There are plenty of large luxury cars. Even larger than muscle cars I mentioned (S class, 7 series, A8, etc). And if you go to Eastern Europe, they are on every corner.
My entire point is that these muscle cars are useless and are only draining big 3's banks. Obviously you missed the entire point.
I'm done talking to you since you are just an arrogant kid who needs attention.
By the way, you've never even crossed the USA boarder
Large? There are plenty of large luxury cars. Even larger than muscle cars I mentioned (S class, 7 series, A8, etc). And if you go to Eastern Europe, they are on every corner.
My entire point is that these muscle cars are useless and are only draining big 3's banks. Obviously you missed the entire point.
I'm done talking to you since you are just an arrogant kid who needs attention.
By the way, you've never even crossed the USA boarder
You're right:
I'm not 29
I didn't live in Germany for 6 years
I never traveled over Europe during that time
I never went back to Europe since leaving
I don't even live in California let alone Los Angeles
You just nailed me like a hammer there young man. Maybe you can take your clairvoyant skills and be the savior of the Big 3...
Cept while most major metropolitan areas in Europe have ample road space...small towns often don't. And even some older cities have parts where driving a truck/7 series/big sports car is a narrow chore. And while some people do it, it doesnt mean its the brightest choice.
Yeah muscle cars are TOTALLY draining the Big 3's banks The mustang is a HUGE failure. The Charger makes no sales. The Challenger has NO following. NO one is excited about the Camaro in the slightest.
Nope, you are just so right about everything.
Yeah, come back when you graduated high school, your testes have descended and you've picked up a clue.