North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**
#162
Engineer
#163
Photography Nerd
I got this email today and it seems appropriate for this thread...
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .
#165
Senior Moderator
#167
I like the crash and burn idea. Let it all die and start fresh.
I read the average auto worker in the US for a "domestic" brand makes $71
the average for the "import" brand is $41. I don't believe that includes benefits.
Of all the GM brands sold in the states (Chevy, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Saab, and Saturn) Saturn isn't their best selling but it does have the highest prophet margin. GMC is a "tougher" Chevy, but just in advertising (kill it off). Pontiac has the G's (5,6,8, and in spring the 3!). The Solstice is a bad version of the Saturn Sky (Opel speedster). The vibe is top to bottom a Toyota Corolla, and haven't I seen the Torrent somewhere before? Oh, that G5... Cobalt. The Chevy Aveo is a DAEWOO, all you have to do is look at the mfgr plate on the door.
What I'm getting to is they are trying to save brands that are not even special or unique in any way anymore. Saab sucks. Never been a fan. I havent seen a good Buick since the Grand National until just a year ago or so. Cadillac is ok. They have their place and do it decently well. Saturn has always been different, and now they are getting different in a good way. Sucks to let them die at the beginning of their rise.
Just let it go. Come back in a year or two with their heads on straight. Ditch the union. And they can keep whatever name they want for nostalgia purposes.
I read the average auto worker in the US for a "domestic" brand makes $71
the average for the "import" brand is $41. I don't believe that includes benefits.
Of all the GM brands sold in the states (Chevy, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Saab, and Saturn) Saturn isn't their best selling but it does have the highest prophet margin. GMC is a "tougher" Chevy, but just in advertising (kill it off). Pontiac has the G's (5,6,8, and in spring the 3!). The Solstice is a bad version of the Saturn Sky (Opel speedster). The vibe is top to bottom a Toyota Corolla, and haven't I seen the Torrent somewhere before? Oh, that G5... Cobalt. The Chevy Aveo is a DAEWOO, all you have to do is look at the mfgr plate on the door.
What I'm getting to is they are trying to save brands that are not even special or unique in any way anymore. Saab sucks. Never been a fan. I havent seen a good Buick since the Grand National until just a year ago or so. Cadillac is ok. They have their place and do it decently well. Saturn has always been different, and now they are getting different in a good way. Sucks to let them die at the beginning of their rise.
Just let it go. Come back in a year or two with their heads on straight. Ditch the union. And they can keep whatever name they want for nostalgia purposes.
#168
6G TLX-S
"Bankruptcy will completely drive away our customers" is a cop-out. People still fly bankrupt airlines. Your customers were driven away by your bloated prices and sub-par quality.
Exactly why they should not get bailed out. The cycle will never end. A restructuring MUST happen.
Exactly why they should not get bailed out. The cycle will never end. A restructuring MUST happen.
#169
I feel the need...
Easy button?
Born again might work for Caddy, but in the real world there are lives at stake and consequences for the economy at large since 1 out of 10 US jobs are auto related.
My position has softened somewhat recently. My mind says no, but my heart goes out to my fellow countrymen who are feeling the pain.
I am seriously considering a purchase of domestic name for the first time evar.
Born again might work for Caddy, but in the real world there are lives at stake and consequences for the economy at large since 1 out of 10 US jobs are auto related.
My position has softened somewhat recently. My mind says no, but my heart goes out to my fellow countrymen who are feeling the pain.
I am seriously considering a purchase of domestic name for the first time evar.
#170
1 out of 10 seems high but in any event that's the fundamental problem: too many people making and selling too many cars. A good number of them have to go.
What about all the other smucks not in the limelight? Feel sorry for them? The auto workers make it sound like they are the only ones losing jobs but their big problem is that their fellow countrymen have already lost their jobs and cannot afford to buy cars. Pretty hard to ask these guys for their tax dollars so that some over priviledged union wankers can keep their cushy jobs.
Buy an Acura or one of the Toyota's made by domestic workers who are non-unionized just like most tax payers.
btw, Fibonacci I'm just using your comments generically and not specifically attacking your position.
btw, Fibonacci I'm just using your comments generically and not specifically attacking your position.
#172
6G TLX-S
Easy button?
Born again might work for Caddy, but in the real world there are lives at stake and consequences for the economy at large since 1 out of 10 US jobs are auto related.
My position has softened somewhat recently. My mind says no, but my heart goes out to my fellow countrymen who are feeling the pain.
I am seriously considering a purchase of domestic name for the first time evar.
Born again might work for Caddy, but in the real world there are lives at stake and consequences for the economy at large since 1 out of 10 US jobs are auto related.
My position has softened somewhat recently. My mind says no, but my heart goes out to my fellow countrymen who are feeling the pain.
I am seriously considering a purchase of domestic name for the first time evar.
#173
Dragging knees in
iTrader: (2)
For fuck's sake, General Motors still doesn't get it!!!
Badge-engineering is one of the reasons why GM is in the mud pit now, but that's not the main reason. Consolidating and eliminating brands will help, yes, but the main problem lies with the management.
Rick Wagoner's plan should read like this:
1. Fire myself effective immediately... like right-the-fuck-now immediately because I suck at life and everything in it, except for driving companies down to the ground due to my short-sighted management.
2. Fire Bob Lutz. See number 1.
3. Fire the Board of Directors. See number 1.
4. Receive money, hand over rein to the Federal government.
5. Bring in capable management.
6. Big Fuck-You to the union. Seriously, go eat shit and die. Thanks for ruining everything with your bullshit.
7. Build it back up.
8. Profitability.
9. Look at things long-term, not 5 inches behind, for fuck's sake.
Done and done.
Same goes for Ford and Chrysler; plug in appropriate names.
I swear to God, if the Feds give money based on this bullshit, half-ass plan of theirs, I will forever be disappointed in our government.
By the way, where's the money to help out the laid-off employees at other auto companies? They don't have the Jobs Bank like the lazy UAW pieces of shit. Why aren't we protecting and helping the real Average Joes of America? Why, all of a sudden, is the financial sector bailout down on the list and the Detroit Three a priority?
Did you know that the UAW has BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars of COLD HARD CASH in their STRIKE FUND? Why isn't the UAW using this money to help the auto industry and the economy? Oh, that's right, someone might file a grievance.
Way to go, Ghettofinger. Here's a big fuck you to you, too.
Badge-engineering is one of the reasons why GM is in the mud pit now, but that's not the main reason. Consolidating and eliminating brands will help, yes, but the main problem lies with the management.
Rick Wagoner's plan should read like this:
1. Fire myself effective immediately... like right-the-fuck-now immediately because I suck at life and everything in it, except for driving companies down to the ground due to my short-sighted management.
2. Fire Bob Lutz. See number 1.
3. Fire the Board of Directors. See number 1.
4. Receive money, hand over rein to the Federal government.
5. Bring in capable management.
6. Big Fuck-You to the union. Seriously, go eat shit and die. Thanks for ruining everything with your bullshit.
7. Build it back up.
8. Profitability.
9. Look at things long-term, not 5 inches behind, for fuck's sake.
Done and done.
Same goes for Ford and Chrysler; plug in appropriate names.
I swear to God, if the Feds give money based on this bullshit, half-ass plan of theirs, I will forever be disappointed in our government.
By the way, where's the money to help out the laid-off employees at other auto companies? They don't have the Jobs Bank like the lazy UAW pieces of shit. Why aren't we protecting and helping the real Average Joes of America? Why, all of a sudden, is the financial sector bailout down on the list and the Detroit Three a priority?
Did you know that the UAW has BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars of COLD HARD CASH in their STRIKE FUND? Why isn't the UAW using this money to help the auto industry and the economy? Oh, that's right, someone might file a grievance.
Way to go, Ghettofinger. Here's a big fuck you to you, too.
#174
^ dude Bob Lutz is one of the few bright spots in GM. If it weren't for him, Buicks would still look like the Buicks you saw in the 1990s that looked like the Buicks from the 1980s with no hope in sight, and Pontiacs would still wear side cladding.
#175
Senior Moderator
I agree with Pure A. I personally dont think the main issue are their cars but more their management and the UAW that needs work.
I didnt know where to put this since theres a few threads on the topic..
Automakers to get $15 billion in federal loans
I didnt know where to put this since theres a few threads on the topic..
Automakers to get $15 billion in federal loans
It's taken two rounds of Congressional hearings, some major pride swallowing and three detailed business plans, but it looks as if the Detroit 3 will be getting the federal loans they need, though not as much they asked for. A deal was reportedly reached between Democratic leaders and the White House that will supply around $15 billion in federal loans to the struggling U.S. auto industry. While General Motors, Ford and Chrysler asked for a combined maximum of $34 billion, the $15 billion is designed to ensure they stay alive until March when the issue will be readdressed with the input of a fresh Obama administration. GM and Chrysler reportedly need around $11 billion to survive the new year, while Ford has said it would only need government aid if one of the other two went under.
We're hearing that a deal was reached between Democrats and the Bush administration late Friday after top Dem. Nancy Pelosi gave in to the White House and its position that the money should come from $25 billion in loans previously approved to help the automakers retool for energy fuel efficient vehicles, rather than drawing the aid from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Fund for struggling financial institutions. In return, Pelosi is seeking a guarantee that the money would be replenished in "a matter of weeks."
Both the Senate and House of Representatives have confirmed they will be meeting on Tuesday to vote on the deal, and it's expected that strong oversight of how the loans are used, whether in the form of an individual car czar or committee, will be part of the final package.
Party on, Detroit.
We're hearing that a deal was reached between Democrats and the Bush administration late Friday after top Dem. Nancy Pelosi gave in to the White House and its position that the money should come from $25 billion in loans previously approved to help the automakers retool for energy fuel efficient vehicles, rather than drawing the aid from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Fund for struggling financial institutions. In return, Pelosi is seeking a guarantee that the money would be replenished in "a matter of weeks."
Both the Senate and House of Representatives have confirmed they will be meeting on Tuesday to vote on the deal, and it's expected that strong oversight of how the loans are used, whether in the form of an individual car czar or committee, will be part of the final package.
Party on, Detroit.
#176
Senior Moderator
You just hit it dead-on...there are too many of these topics flying around. Lemme retitle this thread and merge a few into here.
#177
Senior Moderator
Forgot to add the source to that. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/05/b...lion-in-autom/
#178
Senior Moderator
Merged and stickied...carry on, folks!
#181
I feel the need...
Rick Wagoner's plan should read like this:
1. Fire myself effective immediately... like right-the-fuck-now immediately because I suck at life and everything in it, except for driving companies down to the ground due to my short-sighted management.
2. Fire Bob Lutz. See number 1.
3. Fire the Board of Directors. See number 1.
4. Receive money, hand over rein to the Federal government.
5. Bring in capable management.
6. Big Fuck-You to the union. Seriously, go eat shit and die. Thanks for ruining everything with your bullshit.
7. Build it back up.
8. Profitability.
9. Look at things long-term, not 5 inches behind, for fuck's sake.
1. Fire myself effective immediately... like right-the-fuck-now immediately because I suck at life and everything in it, except for driving companies down to the ground due to my short-sighted management.
2. Fire Bob Lutz. See number 1.
3. Fire the Board of Directors. See number 1.
4. Receive money, hand over rein to the Federal government.
5. Bring in capable management.
6. Big Fuck-You to the union. Seriously, go eat shit and die. Thanks for ruining everything with your bullshit.
7. Build it back up.
8. Profitability.
9. Look at things long-term, not 5 inches behind, for fuck's sake.
Seriously, I can't say that there is much to dispute in your post and I am certainly no defender of unions. But I think some people need to step back from the hysterics and the cataclysm to see where Detroit is coming from. The actuarial tables (from what I've read) seem to indicate that legacy costs of their retirees will dissipate starting in 2010 (ie retirees taking a dirt nap).
Legacy costs date to the time before foreign competition and Detroit had dominant market share. If you think about Detroit, its basically a proxy for the nation. We as a country have over promised benefits, but the bill hasn't come due yet because we are borrowing from the future to pay current benefits.
Are you fully prepared to tell your grandmother -- sorry your fucked because we can't afford your medicare and social security anymore - please die now?
#182
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,395
Received 5,056 Likes
on
2,688 Posts
yeah...fire Lutz....the one dude who has been behind improving the products coming out of GM...
I'd say make Lutz CEO and see what he can do.
I'd say make Lutz CEO and see what he can do.
#183
Dragging knees in
iTrader: (2)
The promise to deliver a viable two-seater sports car took years to bring to market, only to be dominated by the competition. Now the Solstice/Sky project is dead in the water with reduced production and with no replacement in plan. GM is still heavily dependent upon SUVs and truck sales. Hybrid cars are still a joke at GM; investing in the flex-fuel design due to financial incentives, instead of looking at future long-term viability and now being trampled over by the competition who build cars that customers actually desire and demand.
GM is always so focused on making a quick buck and only making this month's mortgage payment. You wonder why they fail so miserably when a crisis is upon them.
At least that's my take on it.
Fibonacci - Yes, I was angry when I wrote that. It's the first time I expressed my anger on the issue, because it was the first time I actually felt anger about the whole situation. They are asking for my and your money, yet only come up with a half-ass plan to consolidate and eliminate. A real sound plan would have included adjusting and organizing from the top down. Instead of going on a diet and properly shedding weight in a balanced manner, they are simply taking a scalpel and cutting off the belly fat in one swing. That can and will lead to complications later on.
Then I wake up to hear the news that they were granted the loan. Whatever, screw it. What does my opinion matter, anyway, right? It's been long since America stopped listening to Americans, and run by agenda-bearing politicians and big corporations. We are just sheep at their mercy.
I heard Nancy Pelosi gave in as to the source of the loan money. I wonder what she was promised in return. I bet in the next couple of years, she'll get a big break on something.
The UAW also agreed to concessions. Hooray! Next up, Employee Free Choice Act! The UAW will get their break on the Act, which will take away our right to a secret ballot election.
#185
Drifting
I feel like firing the CEO's is just scapegoating for the hundreds of lower level people that should actually be fired. If I had a vote, like I and everyone else should, I say fuck that damn union. The union leaders should be sitting at that table too. I know unions are meant to keep companies in check, but someone's got to keep the union in check. Companies shouldn't die because of union control. It's like the union shot their own foot off and now were paying the bill to fix their foot.
If anything the American people should get something out of this, I can damn near guarantee the big three folding under would not affect me, so how about we sell off all of GM, Chrysler and Ford's stock of vehicles for $10 each. That could help me, giving them and the unions more money to sell me crap doesn't help me in the least. I'm actually starting to believe all the USSA theories. Obama isn't even in office yet and all this is happening, it's like a damn self fulfilling prophecy.
end/ rant.
If anything the American people should get something out of this, I can damn near guarantee the big three folding under would not affect me, so how about we sell off all of GM, Chrysler and Ford's stock of vehicles for $10 each. That could help me, giving them and the unions more money to sell me crap doesn't help me in the least. I'm actually starting to believe all the USSA theories. Obama isn't even in office yet and all this is happening, it's like a damn self fulfilling prophecy.
end/ rant.
#186
Yeah, Bob Lutz came to General Motors with a big hoopla earlier in the decade, but he has not turned GM around like he should/could have. Perhaps there are other issues at play here, but the bottom line is that he has not delivered like the "car czar" and the savior he was supposed to be. Simply put, he is under-performing.
Look at Finbar O'Neil or whatever his name was. He saved Hyundai by bringing in the idea of a 100K mile factory warranty and in just a few years Hyundai was back in the game, whereas before it was just sitting on the sidelines. He then went over to Mitsubishi...and we all know his magic did not work there.
#187
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,395
Received 5,056 Likes
on
2,688 Posts
The Solstice and Sky getting getting axed isn't Lutz's fault. You can't blame the shit economy and lack of sales on him. Those cars have been sellers. Enough so they are coming out with the Solstice Coupe. They are great roadsters. I drove and loved the GXP model.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
#188
Dragging knees in
iTrader: (2)
The Solstice and Sky getting getting axed isn't Lutz's fault. You can't blame the shit economy and lack of sales on him. Those cars have been sellers. Enough so they are coming out with the Solstice Coupe. They are great roadsters. I drove and loved the GXP model.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
My point is this - he is under-performing. Blame bureaucracy, blame red tape, blame economy, blame union, whatever. He is under-performing given the circumstances. He's had years to turn things around and GM is actually the WORST one out of the three. You can defend him and give him credit all you want, but he hasn't helped much.
I was excited when Bob Lutz came to GM. I had high hopes. Unfortunately, nothing has come out of GM in the recent past that stirred my emotions.
#189
Dragging knees in
iTrader: (2)
He can only do so much with what he is given. GM is a big company with a lot of bureaucracy and for him to do as much he did speaks more volume than what he couldn't do.
Look at Finbar O'Neil or whatever his name was. He saved Hyundai by bringing in the idea of a 100K mile factory warranty and in just a few years Hyundai was back in the game, whereas before it was just sitting on the sidelines. He then went over to Mitsubishi...and we all know his magic did not work there.
Look at Finbar O'Neil or whatever his name was. He saved Hyundai by bringing in the idea of a 100K mile factory warranty and in just a few years Hyundai was back in the game, whereas before it was just sitting on the sidelines. He then went over to Mitsubishi...and we all know his magic did not work there.
The warranty idea did not come from him. He facilitated the process, but I don't think he is due the credit.
The credit for the rapid expansion and success of Hyundai goes to M.K. Chung, not Finbarr.
#190
I disagree with unanimity
iTrader: (2)
^^^ I agree with Sarlacc. I don't think Lutz is the problem. I think they would be much worse without him.
I came across this intersting article from 2003. They knew then that the UAW would fuck them. It's kinda long, but here is some of it.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...6/b3819001.htm
I came across this intersting article from 2003. They knew then that the UAW would fuck them. It's kinda long, but here is some of it.
.....But as good as those moves are, they pale next to the problems of GM's weak car brands and gargantuan pension payments. In essence, Rick Wagoner is battling 30 years of management mistakes that have left him with immense burdens and very little room to maneuver. Chief executives from Frederic Donner to Roger Smith built up a bloated bureaucracy that cranked out boring, low-quality cars. Turf battles at headquarters sapped resources and diverted attention from a rising threat out of Asia and Europe. Those competitors drove away with the U.S. car market. Now they're aiming to do the same in sport-utility vehicles and trucks--the last bastion of U.S. dominance. GM's most profitable segment is also under attack by environmentalists and safety regulators, and more and more buyers are flocking to smaller crossover SUVs.
Even worse for GM was the buildup of lavish health and retirement benefits for workers that it agreed to in fatter days as a way to buy peace with the United Auto Workers. The company says the gap between its pension funding and future liabilities is now $19.3 billion. That means GM will have to pump as much as $4 billion into the fund over this year and next. Providing health care to former and current workers will drain an additional $5 billion per year. The pension costs alone will cut projected 2003 net income from $4.2 billion to $2.8 billion. Providing for retirees saddles each car rolling off a GM assembly line with a $1,350 penalty vs. a Japanese car built in a new, nonunion U.S. plant, says analyst Scott Hill of Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. That's a daunting handicap in an industry that struggles to make an average operating profit of $800 per vehicle.
....
Wagoner and his team have little choice but to wait out their biggest mess--those massive health and pension costs. Wagoner is brutally realistic: "We'd be accused of a pipe dream if we said in 10 years these issues will go away." GM pays its UAW workers only slightly more per hour than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (NSANY ) pay their American factory workers. But the cost of pension and health-care benefits for current workers is huge--about $24 per hour at GM, vs. $12 at the foreign factories. Pension obligations swelled after the 1990 contract, when then-Chairman Robert Stempel practically guaranteed almost no layoffs. Underestimating the speed of its decline, GM agreed to pay workers for years after a furlough. As losses mounted, GM resorted to early-retirement offers--avoiding billions in unemployment benefits but adding thousands of retirees. Since GM was shrinking faster than Ford, its pension rolls grew more quickly, to 2.5 retirees per worker today, vs. Ford's 1-to-1 ratio. Last year, GM plowed almost $5 billion into the pension fund to shore it up as stock prices fell. But Carol Levenson, an analyst for bond research firm Gimme Credit, points out that GM had to take on $4.6 billion in debt to do it. Until the stock and bond markets spring back, it's three steps forward and two steps back.
Even worse for GM was the buildup of lavish health and retirement benefits for workers that it agreed to in fatter days as a way to buy peace with the United Auto Workers. The company says the gap between its pension funding and future liabilities is now $19.3 billion. That means GM will have to pump as much as $4 billion into the fund over this year and next. Providing health care to former and current workers will drain an additional $5 billion per year. The pension costs alone will cut projected 2003 net income from $4.2 billion to $2.8 billion. Providing for retirees saddles each car rolling off a GM assembly line with a $1,350 penalty vs. a Japanese car built in a new, nonunion U.S. plant, says analyst Scott Hill of Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. That's a daunting handicap in an industry that struggles to make an average operating profit of $800 per vehicle.
....
Wagoner and his team have little choice but to wait out their biggest mess--those massive health and pension costs. Wagoner is brutally realistic: "We'd be accused of a pipe dream if we said in 10 years these issues will go away." GM pays its UAW workers only slightly more per hour than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (NSANY ) pay their American factory workers. But the cost of pension and health-care benefits for current workers is huge--about $24 per hour at GM, vs. $12 at the foreign factories. Pension obligations swelled after the 1990 contract, when then-Chairman Robert Stempel practically guaranteed almost no layoffs. Underestimating the speed of its decline, GM agreed to pay workers for years after a furlough. As losses mounted, GM resorted to early-retirement offers--avoiding billions in unemployment benefits but adding thousands of retirees. Since GM was shrinking faster than Ford, its pension rolls grew more quickly, to 2.5 retirees per worker today, vs. Ford's 1-to-1 ratio. Last year, GM plowed almost $5 billion into the pension fund to shore it up as stock prices fell. But Carol Levenson, an analyst for bond research firm Gimme Credit, points out that GM had to take on $4.6 billion in debt to do it. Until the stock and bond markets spring back, it's three steps forward and two steps back.
#191
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
the $15 billion is designed to ensure they stay alive until March when the issue will be readdressed with the input of a fresh Obama administration
Dubya dodges a bullet.....and clears the way for Obama to sprinkle his magic "hope" dust all over the Big 3 in the form of billions of more dollars that will make the 15b now look like chump change.
#194
intelligentsia
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Land of cheap vodka, hot girls, and great nightlife
Age: 38
Posts: 4,376
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow well the problem is American companies don't making appealing cars. The CTS and MKZ are the only cars I would buy. Chevy sucks they just take designs from cars they had in Europe for a few years and put it in America. I mean damn the fords in Europe look a lot better, I would gladly drive a ford mondeo but thats not offered in the states. Maybe if the American automakers tried to compete against imports instead of offering dumass models they wouldn't be in this position. Why would government bail them out? Let them fail and learn there lesson. If they keep on getting bailed out they will never change.
#195
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,395
Received 5,056 Likes
on
2,688 Posts
Wow well the problem is American companies don't making appealing cars. The CTS and MKZ are the only cars I would buy. Chevy sucks they just take designs from cars they had in Europe for a few years and put it in America. I mean damn the fords in Europe look a lot better, I would gladly drive a ford mondeo but thats not offered in the states. Maybe if the American automakers tried to compete against imports instead of offering dumass models they wouldn't be in this position. Why would government bail them out? Let them fail and learn there lesson. If they keep on getting bailed out they will never change.
The new Mustang, and especially the upcoming 2010 Stang
G8
CTS
Enclave
Solstice
Sky
Upcoming Camaro
Challenger
Charger
GTO
Vette
Upcoming Cruze
current Tahoe/Suburban/Escalade
New Malibu
Edge
Flex
Most of the lamba based SUV from chevy (enclave, acadia, outlook, dont love the chevy one)
Everything from Saturn's current line up looks great.
American cars have come a very long way from the last 5 years.
There a lot of great looking and well executed options. Just too many people with the ignorant stigma of "American cars BAD"
#196
Safety Car
Hah, the ad is for Chevy at the bottom of the page.
I'd take about half of Sarlacc's list.
I am thoroughly impressed with the new trucks and SUV's out of the GMT900 platform, and I hate GM SUV's.
I just had an SRX as a rental while my Si was in for a transmission TSB. That is a very nice crossover, however it still feels "floaty" at highway speeds. This car had 4400 miles on it. I know this is not a GMT900 car, but a nice SUV, if not a little overpriced. And they take it in the can on resale. HARD.
I did love the GMT900 Suburban that we had on our last vacation. Very nice truck. Hauled my parents, wife, brother and his wife and sister around very nicely.
I'd take about half of Sarlacc's list.
I am thoroughly impressed with the new trucks and SUV's out of the GMT900 platform, and I hate GM SUV's.
I just had an SRX as a rental while my Si was in for a transmission TSB. That is a very nice crossover, however it still feels "floaty" at highway speeds. This car had 4400 miles on it. I know this is not a GMT900 car, but a nice SUV, if not a little overpriced. And they take it in the can on resale. HARD.
I did love the GMT900 Suburban that we had on our last vacation. Very nice truck. Hauled my parents, wife, brother and his wife and sister around very nicely.
#197
Finbarr was a lawyer who knew nothing about running a global auto company. That's why he and Hyundai went their separate ways. You say his magic didn't work at Mitsubishi. It didn't work at Hyundai, either.
The warranty idea did not come from him. He facilitated the process, but I don't think he is due the credit.
The credit for the rapid expansion and success of Hyundai goes to M.K. Chung, not Finbarr.
The warranty idea did not come from him. He facilitated the process, but I don't think he is due the credit.
The credit for the rapid expansion and success of Hyundai goes to M.K. Chung, not Finbarr.
He totally deserves the credit for the warranty idea. It was a new idea that showed Hyundai's commitment to its products and it worked. Hyundai, in terms of marketing, would not be where it is today without him.
Please get your facts straight. I know the Korean pride is strong with some of our members, but seriously you people need to take it down a few notches.
#198
The Solstice and Sky getting getting axed isn't Lutz's fault. You can't blame the shit economy and lack of sales on him. Those cars have been sellers. Enough so they are coming out with the Solstice Coupe. They are great roadsters. I drove and loved the GXP model.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
Cadillac...CTS anyone? Said he would fix the interior on the next gen. He delivered in spades. He also set out to compete with bimmer's M3...he did.
Corvette ZR1?
Chevy Cruze? For a little econobox is has a nice interior.
The entire Saturn line up? It never looked so good. Sadly, its not his fault they I've had a foot in the grave for years.
Buick Enclave?
G8?
Camaro?
Let's give Lutz a little credit for doing what he did under who knows what conditions and terms.
I have read many, many times in forums I'd love to own that, but can't because it's not a NA car. I know there a few I'd love to have, from your list the G8 is the only one I'd even look at if I was buying today.
#199
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,395
Received 5,056 Likes
on
2,688 Posts
Lutz and the two guys that have run Ford for the last four to six years are the problem. They're losing money BIG TIME in NA, but making it in the rest of the world. In the rest of the world, Ford, Holden and Vauxhall are making great cars, not just muscle cars. Saturn is nothing but GM Europe in NA.
I have read many, many times in forums I'd love to own that, but can't because it's not a NA car. I know there a few I'd love to have, from your list the G8 is the only one I'd even look at if I was buying today.
I have read many, many times in forums I'd love to own that, but can't because it's not a NA car. I know there a few I'd love to have, from your list the G8 is the only one I'd even look at if I was buying today.
And I credit Lutz for being smart to bring the cars from Europe and down under to the states. No UAW to deal with, great design, great engineering. We ALL have been wishing Ford would do the same.
#200
Its obvious though..... those in Europe and Australia get some seriously nice cars. As much as I like the G8 and its Holden counterparts, I would probably take a FPV GT over even most HSV variants aside from the W427. Those things are BAD ASS.
Suggesting high performance vehicles from American nameplates to mostly automatic Acura owners won't elicit much of a response. Few on here would seriously consider going from their 3G 5AT TL to a Challenger SRT-8 or a Camaro SS. Its also just a different crowd. Chevrolet, Hyundai, Ford and all those other brands are too good for them.
I've always been against the bailout if that matters.... but holy crap you've been brainwashed by Brits already. and the MKZ is an underpowered pig. Chevy sucks, they just take designs from their Euro lineup? Please show us a few examples.
The only car that's almost literally going to be carried over is the Cruze. Seriously.... does it even matter that the car originated from another country?
The funniest thing is the 3G TL folks who say "I'll NEVER buy a domestic car".... built in Ohio and designed in California.
Suggesting high performance vehicles from American nameplates to mostly automatic Acura owners won't elicit much of a response. Few on here would seriously consider going from their 3G 5AT TL to a Challenger SRT-8 or a Camaro SS. Its also just a different crowd. Chevrolet, Hyundai, Ford and all those other brands are too good for them.
Wow well the problem is American companies don't making appealing cars. The CTS and MKZ are the only cars I would buy. Chevy sucks they just take designs from cars they had in Europe for a few years and put it in America. I mean damn the fords in Europe look a lot better, I would gladly drive a ford mondeo but thats not offered in the states. Maybe if the American automakers tried to compete against imports instead of offering dumass models they wouldn't be in this position. Why would government bail them out? Let them fail and learn there lesson. If they keep on getting bailed out they will never change.
The only car that's almost literally going to be carried over is the Cruze. Seriously.... does it even matter that the car originated from another country?
The funniest thing is the 3G TL folks who say "I'll NEVER buy a domestic car".... built in Ohio and designed in California.