North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**
#201
intelligentsia
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^^But its not Ford, GM, nor Chrysler. I personally think the challenger and charger are crap I don't like how they look. I don't like the new malibu or the GTO. Or even the G8. I guess I'm just picky but those cars don't appeal to me. I rather have a camry or a new accord. Or even a Mondeo. I'm just saying no fords, gms, or chryslers don't appeal to me.
#202
Lutz and the two guys that have run Ford for the last four to six years are the problem. They're losing money BIG TIME in NA, but making it in the rest of the world. In the rest of the world, Ford, Holden and Vauxhall are making great cars, not just muscle cars. Saturn is nothing but GM Europe in NA.
I have read many, many times in forums I'd love to own that, but can't because it's not a NA car. I know there a few I'd love to have, from your list the G8 is the only one I'd even look at if I was buying today.
I have read many, many times in forums I'd love to own that, but can't because it's not a NA car. I know there a few I'd love to have, from your list the G8 is the only one I'd even look at if I was buying today.
And while the newer GMs aren't at the top of their class, you can't deny they've gotten better in terms of design (where GM was hurting really bad), quality and marketing. Build quality still isn't the best, but again that's the bean counters selecting lower cost materials and the UAW workers doing half assed jobs. Lutz can only do so much with what he is given.
#203
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Lutz doesn't run GM. He's responsible for new product developments, which have been pretty good lately. The blame should be targeted at Wagoner and all the bean counters who have been running the company to the ground for the past decades.
And while the newer GMs aren't at the top of their class, you can't deny they've gotten better in terms of design (where GM was hurting really bad), quality and marketing. Build quality still isn't the best, but again that's the bean counters selecting lower cost materials and the UAW workers doing half assed jobs. Lutz can only do so much with what he is given.
And while the newer GMs aren't at the top of their class, you can't deny they've gotten better in terms of design (where GM was hurting really bad), quality and marketing. Build quality still isn't the best, but again that's the bean counters selecting lower cost materials and the UAW workers doing half assed jobs. Lutz can only do so much with what he is given.
As far as these guys asking for a bailout its a joke. I love how congress is yelling at them for mismanaging their money yet congress is going to have a huge deficit next year. The CEO's need to grow some balls and stop begging for money. They need to be honest and start saying "the truth is the unions are screwing us and if you keep them around nothing will change."
#204
Lutz doesn't run GM. He's responsible for new product developments, which have been pretty good lately. The blame should be targeted at Wagoner and all the bean counters who have been running the company to the ground for the past decades.
And while the newer GMs aren't at the top of their class, you can't deny they've gotten better in terms of design (where GM was hurting really bad), quality and marketing. Build quality still isn't the best, but again that's the bean counters selecting lower cost materials and the UAW workers doing half assed jobs. Lutz can only do so much with what he is given.
And while the newer GMs aren't at the top of their class, you can't deny they've gotten better in terms of design (where GM was hurting really bad), quality and marketing. Build quality still isn't the best, but again that's the bean counters selecting lower cost materials and the UAW workers doing half assed jobs. Lutz can only do so much with what he is given.
#205
Dragging knees in
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Wrong on all counts. Mitsubishi offered him more because they saw what he did at Hyundai. Hyundai did not fire him.
He totally deserves the credit for the warranty idea. It was a new idea that showed Hyundai's commitment to its products and it worked. Hyundai, in terms of marketing, would not be where it is today without him.
Please get your facts straight. I know the Korean pride is strong with some of our members, but seriously you people need to take it down a few notches.
He totally deserves the credit for the warranty idea. It was a new idea that showed Hyundai's commitment to its products and it worked. Hyundai, in terms of marketing, would not be where it is today without him.
Please get your facts straight. I know the Korean pride is strong with some of our members, but seriously you people need to take it down a few notches.
#206
The Third Ball
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The Chevy Malibu/Saturn Aura was a big step in the right direction. And the new malibu has gotten nothing but good reviews since its release.
The Cobalt isnt the great civic fighter in the world, but its leagues above the Cavalier it replaced. And the Cruze (another euro adoption) stands be a real contender in the compact market.
I'll also be interested in seeing what their Scion fighters do when they are released.
#207
The Malibu from the side or the rear looks like shit, the Cobalt is just like the Cavalier, cheap and bland. The Cruze is two years away, three or more knowing how GM eff's things up.
Looks like it doesn't matter about Pontiac and Saturn, news reports say those name plates are gone with a GM restructure.
GM also needs to get away from cramming OnStar down people throats. If I want to go somewhere, I can figure it out myself, I don't want to be forced to call OnStar to have them give me directions. Just put a real Navi system in the damn car.
Looks like it doesn't matter about Pontiac and Saturn, news reports say those name plates are gone with a GM restructure.
GM also needs to get away from cramming OnStar down people throats. If I want to go somewhere, I can figure it out myself, I don't want to be forced to call OnStar to have them give me directions. Just put a real Navi system in the damn car.
#208
I disagree with unanimity
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Dodd Says GM Chief Should Step Down
One of the chief architects of a plan to bail out the Detroit auto companies said today that General Motors Chairman G. Richard Wagoner should be forced to give up his post as a condition of receiving emergency loans from the federal government.
"I think you have got to consider new leadership. If you're going to really restructure this, you have got to bring in a new team to do this, in my view," Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) said on CBS's "Face the Nation."
Asked specifically about Wagoner, Dodd said: "I think he has to move on."
Dodd's comments came as aides from his committee continued to meet with staffers from the House Financial Services Committee in an attempt to work out a proposal to speed at least $15 billion to the teetering car companies. Democrats hope to send a counterproposal later today to the White House.
The Bush administration is calling for a car czar within the Commerce Department who would be empowered to force the automakers to restructure or force them into bankruptcy. Democrats want to give the companies the money first, permitting them to survive through the end of March, and name an administrator later, "during the next 60 to 90 days," Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) said on Fox News Sunday.
......
"I think you have got to consider new leadership. If you're going to really restructure this, you have got to bring in a new team to do this, in my view," Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) said on CBS's "Face the Nation."
Asked specifically about Wagoner, Dodd said: "I think he has to move on."
Dodd's comments came as aides from his committee continued to meet with staffers from the House Financial Services Committee in an attempt to work out a proposal to speed at least $15 billion to the teetering car companies. Democrats hope to send a counterproposal later today to the White House.
The Bush administration is calling for a car czar within the Commerce Department who would be empowered to force the automakers to restructure or force them into bankruptcy. Democrats want to give the companies the money first, permitting them to survive through the end of March, and name an administrator later, "during the next 60 to 90 days," Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) said on Fox News Sunday.
......
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
#211
Safety Car
#214
^^But its not Ford, GM, nor Chrysler. I personally think the challenger and charger are crap I don't like how they look. I don't like the new malibu or the GTO. Or even the G8. I guess I'm just picky but those cars don't appeal to me. I rather have a camry or a new accord. Or even a Mondeo. I'm just saying no fords, gms, or chryslers don't appeal to me.
I personally think the new Camry looks great aside from its awkward snout, meanwhile the new Accord sedan has styling that's hard to get used to even though its been out for a while now. I've driven Camrys dating back to the 80's and even the new ones in all sorts of condition and personally I'd never get one. And I would never choose to drive ANY current Honda/Acura (S2000 aside possibly) or Toyota/Lexus over any new V8 Challenger, Camaro, GTO, G8 or even Mustang.
And your hollow claim that Chevrolet simply takes designs from Europe and transfers them over here remains unproven. I just proved Honda/Acura does EXACTLY as you said Chevrolet does.
GM, Ford and Chrysler just have the same problem Hyundai does.... they had years and years of making shitty cars then making a huge improvement in the last decade or so, but the tarnished reputation of the 80's and 90's has yet to recover.... not to mention for the Big 3, the idiocy of the UAW and senior management.
#216
99 TL, 06 E350
So we have been right all this time of the fact the the Big 3 have been lieing to us.
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home
Reuters
December 8, 2008 at 8:44 AM EST
DETROIT — — General Motors Corp. [GM-N]on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had “disappointed” and sometimes even “betrayed” American consumers as it lobbies to clinch the federal aid it needs to stay afloat into next month.
The print advertisement marked a sharp break from GM's public stance of just several weeks ago when it sought to justify its bid for a U.S. government on the grounds that the credit crisis had undermined its business in ways executives could never have foreseen.
It also came as Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, who has led the automaker since 2000, faces new pressure to step aside as GM seeks up to $18-billion (U.S.) in federal funding.
“While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you,” the ad said. “At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lacklustre.”
The unsigned open letter, entitled “GM's Commitment to the American People” ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.
In the ad, GM admits to other strategic missteps analysts and critics have said hastened its recent decline.
“We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market,” the ad said. “We also biased our product mix toward pick-up trucks and SUVs.”
But GM also says in the ad that it was hit by forces beyond its control as it tried to complete a restructuring earlier this year.
“Despite moving quickly to reduce our planned spending by over $20-billion, GM finds itself precariously and frighteningly close to running out of cash,” the ad says.
A failure of GM would deepen the current recession and put “millions of job at risk,” according to the ad, which also highlights the automaker's pledged restructuring and intention to begin repaying taxpayers in 2011.
GM spokesman Greg Martin said the ad was an attempt by the automaker to present “a pledge directly to the public.”
“We believe we need to deliver this commitment unfiltered since quite a bit of media commentary has not kept pace with our actual progress to transform the company,” Mr. Martin said.
Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut who is central to the effort to craft an auto bailout bill, on Sunday said GM should replace Mr. Wagoner. GM says Mr. Wagoner has the support of the company's board.
December 8, 2008 at 8:44 AM EST
DETROIT — — General Motors Corp. [GM-N]on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had “disappointed” and sometimes even “betrayed” American consumers as it lobbies to clinch the federal aid it needs to stay afloat into next month.
The print advertisement marked a sharp break from GM's public stance of just several weeks ago when it sought to justify its bid for a U.S. government on the grounds that the credit crisis had undermined its business in ways executives could never have foreseen.
It also came as Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, who has led the automaker since 2000, faces new pressure to step aside as GM seeks up to $18-billion (U.S.) in federal funding.
“While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you,” the ad said. “At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lacklustre.”
The unsigned open letter, entitled “GM's Commitment to the American People” ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.
In the ad, GM admits to other strategic missteps analysts and critics have said hastened its recent decline.
“We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market,” the ad said. “We also biased our product mix toward pick-up trucks and SUVs.”
But GM also says in the ad that it was hit by forces beyond its control as it tried to complete a restructuring earlier this year.
“Despite moving quickly to reduce our planned spending by over $20-billion, GM finds itself precariously and frighteningly close to running out of cash,” the ad says.
A failure of GM would deepen the current recession and put “millions of job at risk,” according to the ad, which also highlights the automaker's pledged restructuring and intention to begin repaying taxpayers in 2011.
GM spokesman Greg Martin said the ad was an attempt by the automaker to present “a pledge directly to the public.”
“We believe we need to deliver this commitment unfiltered since quite a bit of media commentary has not kept pace with our actual progress to transform the company,” Mr. Martin said.
Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut who is central to the effort to craft an auto bailout bill, on Sunday said GM should replace Mr. Wagoner. GM says Mr. Wagoner has the support of the company's board.
#217
The sizzle in the Steak
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#218
The sizzle in the Steak
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#219
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
The End of Saturn Thread
Discuss here...unless the mods want to throw it into a GM thread.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-cuts-...tml#more-12411
Saturn was on such an upswing....a promising brand in the GM lineup....once they for once got into a great direction for product...they get the axe.
For those who don't know: Automakes cannot just close down dealerships...they have to be bought out! Individual states car sales tax revenue is a huge part of most states budgets....hence why it's not easy to just simply close a dealership.
When GM kills of brands, states around the country are going to stand to loose big $$$.
General Motors has cut off new product funding to its lame-duck Saturn brand, a source close to GM says. The automaker announced last week that, as a part of its bid for low-interest federal loans, it will close or sell its Saturn unit. Most analysts say that Saturn is of limited value, however, so it appears likely that the brand will close its doors for good soon.
Officially, GM said it will “explore alternatives” for Saturn, but given the weak sales the brand has endured despite a recent product renaissance, most analysts agree that the brand is worth little to another automaker.
Unfortunately for the automaker, simply dropping the Saturn brand is more expensive than it sounds. GM would likely spend upwards of $1 billion to buy out its Saturn dealer network, according to dealer broker Mark Johnson.
The automaker’s Franchise Operations Team, an eight dealer council, will meet with Saturn and GM executives Thursday and Friday in Detroit to discuss how Saturn could be made profitable, a Saturn spokesman told Automotive News.
That plan could conclude that Saturn cannot be made into a profit-maker in time for GM to start paying back the federal loans it’s banking on receiving.
Officially, GM said it will “explore alternatives” for Saturn, but given the weak sales the brand has endured despite a recent product renaissance, most analysts agree that the brand is worth little to another automaker.
Unfortunately for the automaker, simply dropping the Saturn brand is more expensive than it sounds. GM would likely spend upwards of $1 billion to buy out its Saturn dealer network, according to dealer broker Mark Johnson.
The automaker’s Franchise Operations Team, an eight dealer council, will meet with Saturn and GM executives Thursday and Friday in Detroit to discuss how Saturn could be made profitable, a Saturn spokesman told Automotive News.
That plan could conclude that Saturn cannot be made into a profit-maker in time for GM to start paying back the federal loans it’s banking on receiving.
Saturn was on such an upswing....a promising brand in the GM lineup....once they for once got into a great direction for product...they get the axe.
For those who don't know: Automakes cannot just close down dealerships...they have to be bought out! Individual states car sales tax revenue is a huge part of most states budgets....hence why it's not easy to just simply close a dealership.
When GM kills of brands, states around the country are going to stand to loose big $$$.
#222
6spder
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sad sure but someone has to go or else the whole company goes, which imho isn't that big or a problem.
we have enough cars running around this country to survive a LONG time with out some new cars. just take what ever is left over and invest it into the parts market....
we have enough cars running around this country to survive a LONG time with out some new cars. just take what ever is left over and invest it into the parts market....
#223
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
sad sure but someone has to go or else the whole company goes, which imho isn't that big or a problem.
we have enough cars running around this country to survive a LONG time with out some new cars. just take what ever is left over and invest it into the parts market....
we have enough cars running around this country to survive a LONG time with out some new cars. just take what ever is left over and invest it into the parts market....
You put all those peeps out of work....in a consumer economy that we have here in the U.S........it's like dragging a ball & chain around the US economy.
The bailout is not about the cars...it's about the jobs.
#224
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For those who don't know: Automakes cannot just close down dealerships...they have to be bought out! Individual states car sales tax revenue is a huge part of most states budgets....hence why it's not easy to just simply close a dealership.
When GM kills of brands, states around the country are going to stand to loose big $$$.
When GM kills of brands, states around the country are going to stand to loose big $$$.
#225
Let's say GM+Chrsyler disappear. Well, then a lot more Fords, Hondas, Toyotas, etc will be sold. Those companies and their suppliers will need workers, not as much, but they can cherry pick and leave the lazy, unskilled, former union leeches to be Walmart greeters or something.
So no, there won't be an economic collapse, just a shedding of communism/unionism inefficiency like in the rest of the world.
So no, there won't be an economic collapse, just a shedding of communism/unionism inefficiency like in the rest of the world.
#226
The Third Ball
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#227
The sizzle in the Steak
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Less brands = less cars to sell.
Does it always work....no.....there are always exceptions to the rule...but in general it works.
Hence why GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota have multiple brands to try to get into many niches to sell more cars.
If this wasn't the case, there would be no Lexus, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, Lincoln, Scion.....etc.
Simple marketing.
#228
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More brands = more cars to sell.
Less brands = less cars to sell.
Does it always work....no.....there are always exceptions to the rule...but in general it works.
Hence why GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota have multiple brands to try to get into many niches to sell more cars.
If this wasn't the case, there would be no Lexus, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, Lincoln, Scion.....etc.
Simple marketing.
Less brands = less cars to sell.
Does it always work....no.....there are always exceptions to the rule...but in general it works.
Hence why GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota have multiple brands to try to get into many niches to sell more cars.
If this wasn't the case, there would be no Lexus, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, Lincoln, Scion.....etc.
Simple marketing.
If someone wants/needs a new car... they're still going to buy a new car. I'm not sure how huge of an impact it would have on total sales if one brand went away. It isn't as if Saturn was making a line of "OMG I HAVE TO HAVE THIS" cars.
#229
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
Sure it does. You create multiple car lines and style/types of cars to draw-in consumers. Simple marketing. You may say Saturn was selling "turd:....but GM/Saturn still is/was selling cars...and believe(ed) that they had a market.
If creating additional brands did not sell more cars for a company...then why do they all create additional brands?.....because it typically works.
I don't agree with corporate re-badging....I think that is a waste, but new niche brands can generate more consumers to buy your product.
If creating additional brands did not sell more cars for a company...then why do they all create additional brands?.....because it typically works.
I don't agree with corporate re-badging....I think that is a waste, but new niche brands can generate more consumers to buy your product.
#230
What are all the rebadged Opels going to become now?
Saturn did have a lot of upside. For a while, they've almost been a niche brand for GM until recently when they branched out with the Vue, Sky, Outlook, etc. Then again you have to realize, not all is lost since none of those cars are unique.... they have badge siblings. So I liked the Sky more than the Solstice, at least exterior-wise.... the Malibu is leaps and bounds ahead of the Aura. I think the writing was on the wall a long time ago. What would really hurt is if Buick died, I believe Buick alone sold a lot more than Saturn did. There's still a chance of the Opel Insignia (European car of the year for something, IIRC) and the Buick Invicta coming over. The main thing is that this is going to put GM deeper into the red, though I'm sure they considered the cost of buying out all the killed dealerships in their bailout request.
What's ridiculous is how the UAW is sitting pretty, making "concessions" but not parting ways with a single dollar of their billions of cash sitting there at the ready, in case someone wants to file a grievance. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you....
Saturn did have a lot of upside. For a while, they've almost been a niche brand for GM until recently when they branched out with the Vue, Sky, Outlook, etc. Then again you have to realize, not all is lost since none of those cars are unique.... they have badge siblings. So I liked the Sky more than the Solstice, at least exterior-wise.... the Malibu is leaps and bounds ahead of the Aura. I think the writing was on the wall a long time ago. What would really hurt is if Buick died, I believe Buick alone sold a lot more than Saturn did. There's still a chance of the Opel Insignia (European car of the year for something, IIRC) and the Buick Invicta coming over. The main thing is that this is going to put GM deeper into the red, though I'm sure they considered the cost of buying out all the killed dealerships in their bailout request.
What's ridiculous is how the UAW is sitting pretty, making "concessions" but not parting ways with a single dollar of their billions of cash sitting there at the ready, in case someone wants to file a grievance. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you....
#231
Safety Car
if the solstice didnt exist, the Saturn SKY would be a neat little car to own years down the road. a real memento...a staple of a nicely designed car for a upcoming brand that was axed during the 2008 recession.
#232
Got da Internet Goin Nutz
One of my first cars was a '94 Saturn SL2 (leather, sunroof, faux wood) I LOVED THAT CAR! Never had problems with it and put over 170K miles on it.
The original Saturn appeal and marketing was great. It was a small economy and eco-friendly car. I think Toyota should buy the brand and rebadge the prius as a Saturn and sell all of their hybrids under the Saturn name. Hell GM should have done that a long time ago...
The original Saturn appeal and marketing was great. It was a small economy and eco-friendly car. I think Toyota should buy the brand and rebadge the prius as a Saturn and sell all of their hybrids under the Saturn name. Hell GM should have done that a long time ago...
#233
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
One of my first cars was a '94 Saturn SL2 (leather, sunroof, faux wood) I LOVED THAT CAR! Never had problems with it and put over 170K miles on it.
The original Saturn appeal and marketing was great. It was a small economy and eco-friendly car. I think Toyota should buy the brand and rebadge the prius as a Saturn and sell all of their hybrids under the Saturn name. Hell GM should have done that a long time ago...
The original Saturn appeal and marketing was great. It was a small economy and eco-friendly car. I think Toyota should buy the brand and rebadge the prius as a Saturn and sell all of their hybrids under the Saturn name. Hell GM should have done that a long time ago...
The only thing I think they could buy is the name and possibly the dealer network.
There is really no Saturn only product...it's all tied into a rebadge.
#234
an asshole from florida
^ well just until this last generation of saturn is that true. they could go back to the non denting sidepanel saturns. they may not be the best looking cars but they looked ok and ten years later they still looked good since they had no dings or whatnot in them
#235
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
^^ No way! Those old "plastic" Saturns were HORRIBLE...inside and out.
The MASSIVE panel gaps that were needed for the plastic panels were so bad.
I understand why they needed to be so big because of the material, but boy did they make the cars look cheap.
The MASSIVE panel gaps that were needed for the plastic panels were so bad.
I understand why they needed to be so big because of the material, but boy did they make the cars look cheap.
#237
intelligentsia
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To each his own
I personally think the new Camry looks great aside from its awkward snout, meanwhile the new Accord sedan has styling that's hard to get used to even though its been out for a while now. I've driven Camrys dating back to the 80's and even the new ones in all sorts of condition and personally I'd never get one. And I would never choose to drive ANY current Honda/Acura (S2000 aside possibly) or Toyota/Lexus over any new V8 Challenger, Camaro, GTO, G8 or even Mustang.
And your hollow claim that Chevrolet simply takes designs from Europe and transfers them over here remains unproven. I just proved Honda/Acura does EXACTLY as you said Chevrolet does.
GM, Ford and Chrysler just have the same problem Hyundai does.... they had years and years of making shitty cars then making a huge improvement in the last decade or so, but the tarnished reputation of the 80's and 90's has yet to recover.... not to mention for the Big 3, the idiocy of the UAW and senior management.
I personally think the new Camry looks great aside from its awkward snout, meanwhile the new Accord sedan has styling that's hard to get used to even though its been out for a while now. I've driven Camrys dating back to the 80's and even the new ones in all sorts of condition and personally I'd never get one. And I would never choose to drive ANY current Honda/Acura (S2000 aside possibly) or Toyota/Lexus over any new V8 Challenger, Camaro, GTO, G8 or even Mustang.
And your hollow claim that Chevrolet simply takes designs from Europe and transfers them over here remains unproven. I just proved Honda/Acura does EXACTLY as you said Chevrolet does.
GM, Ford and Chrysler just have the same problem Hyundai does.... they had years and years of making shitty cars then making a huge improvement in the last decade or so, but the tarnished reputation of the 80's and 90's has yet to recover.... not to mention for the Big 3, the idiocy of the UAW and senior management.
#239
intelligentsia
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HEHE I'm hoping for cheap caddys. Brand new CTS with nav system for 25k I would bite. Or hell even an CTS-V for 55k. But I'm probably dreaming.