Monthly Car Sales news
05-08-2010, 09:08 AM
#761
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the only reason why I did that is, is because of the experience my family and myself have had with Cadillac in the past! They are of poor quality, terrible terrible reliability (10x worse then the Germans), and their reputation/prestige is low because of their terrible poor reliability and association with a now post-bankrupted GM, which has hurt their image, despite the fact they are now trying to distance themselves from GM, even though they will always be a GM product and associated with a terribly managed company!
I sat in several Cadillac products at the NY AutoShow last month and I was not impressed with any of them. The seats were terrible uncomfortable, too many cheap plastic pieces and materials in the cabin, even more so then what Acura is doing now, fit/finish issues all over the place, and I had some exterior/interior pieces come off in my hand!
Now, Cadillac is in the process of addressing their product lines and this might change within the next few years but not right now!
Plus, I don't see many Cadillac's, especially newer model years on the road, like I see BMWs, MBs, Lexus, Infiniti's, Audi's, and Acura's. Plus, I have never heard anyone recommend Cadillac to anyone let alone buy one for themselves. I still contend, that a large majority of the middle age and young adult population are not flocking in jroves to buy Cadillac's like they are the other luxury auto makers! I think a good chunk of their sales are still to the over 50 crowd who grew up with GM and Cadillac as the best domestically made luxury choice!
I do agree with you and others though, that if Acura doesn't get its act together in the innovation and styling department, they will become a joke in the industry and Cadillac and Buick will pass them in reputation/image!
I sat in several Cadillac products at the NY AutoShow last month and I was not impressed with any of them. The seats were terrible uncomfortable, too many cheap plastic pieces and materials in the cabin, even more so then what Acura is doing now, fit/finish issues all over the place, and I had some exterior/interior pieces come off in my hand!
Now, Cadillac is in the process of addressing their product lines and this might change within the next few years but not right now!
Plus, I don't see many Cadillac's, especially newer model years on the road, like I see BMWs, MBs, Lexus, Infiniti's, Audi's, and Acura's. Plus, I have never heard anyone recommend Cadillac to anyone let alone buy one for themselves. I still contend, that a large majority of the middle age and young adult population are not flocking in jroves to buy Cadillac's like they are the other luxury auto makers! I think a good chunk of their sales are still to the over 50 crowd who grew up with GM and Cadillac as the best domestically made luxury choice!
I do agree with you and others though, that if Acura doesn't get its act together in the innovation and styling department, they will become a joke in the industry and Cadillac and Buick will pass them in reputation/image!
It doesn't matter what YOUR experience is.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming, boys.
05-08-2010, 09:17 AM
#762
Even Buick had a considerably larger crowd then Cadillac did!
05-08-2010, 09:27 AM
#763
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do get it. I think for the most part, not just my experience, but I think the masses don't think much of Cadillac either at this point in time, especially what has happened with GM as a company in the last 2 years! Great example of this was at the auto show! The Cadillac show case had no where near the crowds of people BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, or Audi did!
Even Buick had a considerably larger crowd then Cadillac did!
Even Buick had a considerably larger crowd then Cadillac did!
That would probably be because all of those brands had large new releases whereas the CTS-V over a year ago was the last big reveal for Cadillac. The XTS Platinum Concept had a lot of people there as well as the CTS Coupe, so maybe you just didn't look very hard.
P.S. I've had great experience with Cadillac. It seems like you've had good experience with no one other than the Japanese. How odd ....
05-08-2010, 09:41 AM
#764
No you don't. You are basing tiers off of quality and reliability and other things that are not really the point. Those things make UP the reputation, but those things themselves are not the reputation. Plus in perception Cadillac was regarded no worse in the polls than any of the Japanese luxury divisions, so by your judgement then ..... none of them are thought of in a high regard by the public. And obviously that's not true, but it definately puts a shining light on your bias.
That would probably be because all of those brands had large new releases whereas the CTS-V over a year ago was the last big reveal for Cadillac. The XTS Platinum Concept had a lot of people there as well as the CTS Coupe, so maybe you just didn't look very hard.
P.S. I've had great experience with Cadillac. It seems like you've had good experience with no one other than the Japanese. How odd ....
That would probably be because all of those brands had large new releases whereas the CTS-V over a year ago was the last big reveal for Cadillac. The XTS Platinum Concept had a lot of people there as well as the CTS Coupe, so maybe you just didn't look very hard.
P.S. I've had great experience with Cadillac. It seems like you've had good experience with no one other than the Japanese. How odd ....
I'd love to see this suppose poll where Cadillac is ranked as low as the Japanese brands. I never said quality and reliability were sole determinants of a tier system. You yourself said the tier system was bogus and now you don't so you don't even know what your talking about. I'd love how you think Cadillac is so great in the minds of everyone and you've had great experience with Cadillac. How very suprising you would say that to support your good experience. Now that is what I would call bias!
Your starting to turn into some of the snotty people that come on here just to argue. You need to be more diplomatic then just being patronizing and blatantly coming out saying someone is wrong because you don't agree with them. Actually you were hypocritical! You say that the suppose tier system is based solely on reputation/prestige but that in of itself is solely based on opinion/assestment, which is highly subjective so then Cadilliac's reputation is highly subjective. I don't believe the mass market thinks its that great and I don't either. Not suprising you would say everyone does since you've had such a great experience with them!
Last edited by smarty666; 05-08-2010 at 09:44 AM.
05-08-2010, 09:47 AM
#765
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't had any other good experience from the Japanese, though I haven't had a make from all the German brands so I wouldn't know until I tried them.
I'd love to see this suppose poll where Cadillac is ranked as low as the Japanese brands. I never said quality and reliability were sole determinants of a tier system. You yourself said the tier system was bogus and now you don't so you don't even know what your talking about. I'd love how you think Cadillac is so great in the minds of everyone and you've had great experience with Cadillac. How very suprising you would say that to support your good experience. Now that is what I would call bias!
I'd love to see this suppose poll where Cadillac is ranked as low as the Japanese brands. I never said quality and reliability were sole determinants of a tier system. You yourself said the tier system was bogus and now you don't so you don't even know what your talking about. I'd love how you think Cadillac is so great in the minds of everyone and you've had great experience with Cadillac. How very suprising you would say that to support your good experience. Now that is what I would call bias!
You also ran around talking about how the Germans are all bad in the long term and the Japanese are all great.
Have you ever read any reviews? Even looked at everyone going giggly crazy for almost any CTS variant available? The Escalade POS still has a following, as does the XLR and any V-Series variants. Cadillac is loved by many. It's rather hilarious to suggest the opposite is true.
And oh hell yeah I'm biased. Having never owned a GM product and bought all Japanese vehicles in my lifetime I have shown by immense bias for Cadillac and GM as a whole! How you got me! You cry bias every time I counter your claims that anything not Japanese is just not great IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.
Now that my departure time for breakfast is later than originally expected, I shall return at a later time.
05-08-2010, 10:11 AM
#766
How about the suvey results I posted on page 18? Did you even read that? No, you bitched about how I apparently base everything off of one survey (which I guess means you wanted me to waste half my life to find 55 surveys for you?!).
You also ran around talking about how the Germans are all bad in the long term and the Japanese are all great.
Have you ever read any reviews? Even looked at everyone going giggly crazy for almost any CTS variant available? The Escalade POS still has a following, as does the XLR and any V-Series variants. Cadillac is loved by many. It's rather hilarious to suggest the opposite is true.
And oh hell yeah I'm biased. Having never owned a GM product and bought all Japanese vehicles in my lifetime I have shown by immense bias for Cadillac and GM as a whole! How you got me! You cry bias every time I counter your claims that anything not Japanese is just not great IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.
Now that my departure time for breakfast is later than originally expected, I shall return at a later time.
You also ran around talking about how the Germans are all bad in the long term and the Japanese are all great.
Have you ever read any reviews? Even looked at everyone going giggly crazy for almost any CTS variant available? The Escalade POS still has a following, as does the XLR and any V-Series variants. Cadillac is loved by many. It's rather hilarious to suggest the opposite is true.
And oh hell yeah I'm biased. Having never owned a GM product and bought all Japanese vehicles in my lifetime I have shown by immense bias for Cadillac and GM as a whole! How you got me! You cry bias every time I counter your claims that anything not Japanese is just not great IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.
Now that my departure time for breakfast is later than originally expected, I shall return at a later time.
Grow up!
First of all, you do a wonderful job of putting words in my mouth and generalizing just like others on here have done. I did not say that ALL Germans had terrible long-term reliability and that ALL Japanese vehicles were great. What I said is, that the German, especially BMW, have improved their reliability over the last few years, but ON AVERAGE, they still have not matched the AVERAGE long-term reliability that the Japanese have. I belong to multiple car threads and blogs online, and I hear much more horror stories/repair problems with BMW, Audi, and MB, then I do with Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. Does that mean the Japanese don't have problems or need to be repair, of course not, and I've read them too, but not as frequently as with the Germans. That doesn't mean they can't or won't, but I haven't read yet that they have. That doesn't mean you can't have a BMW, MB, or Audi that is problem free for 8 or 9 years, but its harder to find then a equivalent Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti. Also, I did not say Japanese cars are perfect! I have had 1 or 2 Japanese vehicles over the years with repairs, but no where near the utter hell I went through with Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Cadillac for over 25 years!
I guess you didn't pay attention when I said I've owned Cadillacs and sat in almost all the models at the auto show last month, so I think I know a little bit about Cadillac. I didn't say everyone hates them. Again, that is you twisting what I say. I said overall, I wasn't impressed and saw many quality/fit-finish issues in several products I sat in. That doesn't mean I didn't like any of them. I do think that the CTS is attractive and the nicest product Cadillac offers right now. You seem to miss that when I talk about a brand or cars in general, I use terms like on average, or a majority or minority because nothing is 100%with assestment or opinions, trends, REPUTATION, PERCETION, etc!
You said you had a Cadillac product now your saying you've only owned Japanese vehicles and never a GM product? I don't get that. You seem to say one thing one time and then something completely different.
What I think is really funny and hypocritical about your post is, you say I defend Japanese vehicles to no end and everything else is crap and that couldn't be further from the truth. I have been a harsh critic of Acura on several boards on here and how they are taking the company in the wrong direction. I even talked about Infiniti a couple of times and how the new M is nice but it wasn't taken far enough and is going to lose out to its German, American, and other Japanese competition in the near future. How is that passionately/blinding defending the Japanese with a bias? Umm, got an answer for that? I don't think so!
I've mentioned several times that I like Audi and have been contemplating of trying their products the next go around, so again I guess that shows my Japanese bias!
You've constantly been wishywashy about the tier system BS in this country with the various luxury automakers. One minute you say that its made up of a huge hosts of factors ranging from quality, sales, reputation, service, prestige, etc etc and now you come on screaming that everything is determined by reputation/prestige and that is all. Yet those two factors alone are entirely subjective/opinion based. I think we agreed long ago that what contiutes the tiers and luxury is entirely opinion oriented yet you've just come on with your rant throwing down my throat how I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about with the tier system again and Cadillic. The only person that seems to have troubles when someone disagrees with them is you!
I don't know what is a better market indication of reputation then what I saw at the NY AutoShow last month. The German, and Lexus/Infiniti displays had triple the occupancy and crowds that Acura and Cadillac had. Personally, I think Acura and Cadillac are in a similar boat. They once had much higher reputation/prestige in this country then they do right now, and it has fallen off. They are both working to repair it and get up to the likes of BMW, MB, and Lexus.
Last edited by smarty666; 05-08-2010 at 10:14 AM.
05-08-2010, 10:41 AM
#767
Way to fucking ruin this thread. 4 ppl on ignore
05-08-2010, 11:02 AM
#768
Lol. So much for your "tier is based on price" theory. Acura doesn't even have competitors for Lexus at the top of the market (LS, LX, IS-F). Lexus prices are across the board higher than Acura, yet Lexus is tier 2 and Acura, tier 1???
I don't even necessarily agree with your "price = tier" assessment anyway, but at least stay consistent with yourself! And you are also worng (what a surprise) about all Audis being more expensive than all Lexus's. The LS is priced similarly to the A8, the GS is close to the A6, the IS/ES is close to the A4/5, the RX is around the same as the Q5, the LX is close to the Q7, the IS-F comes close to the S5, etc. In fact, when you include the LFA, Lexus has a competitor for every single Audi entry other than the A3 (and Avant), and the LFA has sold out at a price nearly 4 times the R8's....
I don't even necessarily agree with your "price = tier" assessment anyway, but at least stay consistent with yourself! And you are also worng (what a surprise) about all Audis being more expensive than all Lexus's. The LS is priced similarly to the A8, the GS is close to the A6, the IS/ES is close to the A4/5, the RX is around the same as the Q5, the LX is close to the Q7, the IS-F comes close to the S5, etc. In fact, when you include the LFA, Lexus has a competitor for every single Audi entry other than the A3 (and Avant), and the LFA has sold out at a price nearly 4 times the R8's....
Same is with Audi. Q5 equiped is in GX category not in RX. which are deeply discounted. wait untill next year when ALG release residual values. I bet Acura and Audi will be higher than the rest of discounted crap from BMW/MB/Lexus/Infiniti. the collapse of resale values in lower end cars like 3, C, E350, IS, ES, RX and even GS, GX tell some thing about lower status brand.
It is understandable that higher value like 7/S/LS will depreciate faster but to see that MDX/RL/TL holding values better than its counterparts like E/5/3 series.
A6 3.0T is in V8 GS category not in V6 GS and how many V8 GS they can sell?. look at equipment levels.
In short brand status is directly related to its holding value across wide price range from $30k to $50k where Acura and Audi are the best.
Acura practicallly dont give options. so even if they discount certain models they are not losing any money as single engine is used across line up. consider the equipment levels for price point and that silly 4 year maintiance of BMW
It is the Collective Value of the brand not individual models that raise its status.
05-08-2010, 11:23 AM
#769
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is exactly the crap I'm talking about with you and it just annoys me to no end. We are on page 20 now. That was two pages ago. I don't go back and read every single thread from the last 2-4 pages everytime I post something, I'd be on here all day so give me a break. I remember reading that. THat was the BS from MSN about car blogs/enthusaist who say this is what the American public think is luxury and how its structured in this country. I could give a rat's butt to that! Doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned. I'm just sick of posting my opinion and assestment of things and having people like you and others coming on being undiplomatic and just trying to start an argument that "oh your wrong and incorrect, stupid, don't know what your talking about"!
Grow up!
First of all, you do a wonderful job of putting words in my mouth and generalizing just like others on here have done. I did not say that ALL Germans had terrible long-term reliability and that ALL Japanese vehicles were great. What I said is, that the German, especially BMW, have improved their reliability over the last few years, but ON AVERAGE, they still have not matched the AVERAGE long-term reliability that the Japanese have. I belong to multiple car threads and blogs online, and I hear much more horror stories/repair problems with BMW, Audi, and MB, then I do with Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. Does that mean the Japanese don't have problems or need to be repair, of course not, and I've read them too, but not as frequently as with the Germans. That doesn't mean they can't or won't, but I haven't read yet that they have. That doesn't mean you can't have a BMW, MB, or Audi that is problem free for 8 or 9 years, but its harder to find then a equivalent Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti. Also, I did not say Japanese cars are perfect! I have had 1 or 2 Japanese vehicles over the years with repairs, but no where near the utter hell I went through with Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Cadillac for over 25 years!
I guess you didn't pay attention when I said I've owned Cadillacs and sat in almost all the models at the auto show last month, so I think I know a little bit about Cadillac. I didn't say everyone hates them. Again, that is you twisting what I say. I said overall, I wasn't impressed and saw many quality/fit-finish issues in several products I sat in. That doesn't mean I didn't like any of them. I do think that the CTS is attractive and the nicest product Cadillac offers right now. You seem to miss that when I talk about a brand or cars in general, I use terms like on average, or a majority or minority because nothing is 100%with assestment or opinions, trends, REPUTATION, PERCETION, etc!
You said you had a Cadillac product now your saying you've only owned Japanese vehicles and never a GM product? I don't get that. You seem to say one thing one time and then something completely different.
What I think is really funny and hypocritical about your post is, you say I defend Japanese vehicles to no end and everything else is crap and that couldn't be further from the truth. I have been a harsh critic of Acura on several boards on here and how they are taking the company in the wrong direction. I even talked about Infiniti a couple of times and how the new M is nice but it wasn't taken far enough and is going to lose out to its German, American, and other Japanese competition in the near future. How is that passionately/blinding defending the Japanese with a bias? Umm, got an answer for that? I don't think so!
I've mentioned several times that I like Audi and have been contemplating of trying their products the next go around, so again I guess that shows my Japanese bias!
You've constantly been wishywashy about the tier system BS in this country with the various luxury automakers. One minute you say that its made up of a huge hosts of factors ranging from quality, sales, reputation, service, prestige, etc etc and now you come on screaming that everything is determined by reputation/prestige and that is all. Yet those two factors alone are entirely subjective/opinion based. I think we agreed long ago that what contiutes the tiers and luxury is entirely opinion oriented yet you've just come on with your rant throwing down my throat how I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about with the tier system again and Cadillic. The only person that seems to have troubles when someone disagrees with them is you!
I don't know what is a better market indication of reputation then what I saw at the NY AutoShow last month. The German, and Lexus/Infiniti displays had triple the occupancy and crowds that Acura and Cadillac had. Personally, I think Acura and Cadillac are in a similar boat. They once had much higher reputation/prestige in this country then they do right now, and it has fallen off. They are both working to repair it and get up to the likes of BMW, MB, and Lexus.
Grow up!
First of all, you do a wonderful job of putting words in my mouth and generalizing just like others on here have done. I did not say that ALL Germans had terrible long-term reliability and that ALL Japanese vehicles were great. What I said is, that the German, especially BMW, have improved their reliability over the last few years, but ON AVERAGE, they still have not matched the AVERAGE long-term reliability that the Japanese have. I belong to multiple car threads and blogs online, and I hear much more horror stories/repair problems with BMW, Audi, and MB, then I do with Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. Does that mean the Japanese don't have problems or need to be repair, of course not, and I've read them too, but not as frequently as with the Germans. That doesn't mean they can't or won't, but I haven't read yet that they have. That doesn't mean you can't have a BMW, MB, or Audi that is problem free for 8 or 9 years, but its harder to find then a equivalent Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti. Also, I did not say Japanese cars are perfect! I have had 1 or 2 Japanese vehicles over the years with repairs, but no where near the utter hell I went through with Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Cadillac for over 25 years!
I guess you didn't pay attention when I said I've owned Cadillacs and sat in almost all the models at the auto show last month, so I think I know a little bit about Cadillac. I didn't say everyone hates them. Again, that is you twisting what I say. I said overall, I wasn't impressed and saw many quality/fit-finish issues in several products I sat in. That doesn't mean I didn't like any of them. I do think that the CTS is attractive and the nicest product Cadillac offers right now. You seem to miss that when I talk about a brand or cars in general, I use terms like on average, or a majority or minority because nothing is 100%with assestment or opinions, trends, REPUTATION, PERCETION, etc!
You said you had a Cadillac product now your saying you've only owned Japanese vehicles and never a GM product? I don't get that. You seem to say one thing one time and then something completely different.
What I think is really funny and hypocritical about your post is, you say I defend Japanese vehicles to no end and everything else is crap and that couldn't be further from the truth. I have been a harsh critic of Acura on several boards on here and how they are taking the company in the wrong direction. I even talked about Infiniti a couple of times and how the new M is nice but it wasn't taken far enough and is going to lose out to its German, American, and other Japanese competition in the near future. How is that passionately/blinding defending the Japanese with a bias? Umm, got an answer for that? I don't think so!
I've mentioned several times that I like Audi and have been contemplating of trying their products the next go around, so again I guess that shows my Japanese bias!
You've constantly been wishywashy about the tier system BS in this country with the various luxury automakers. One minute you say that its made up of a huge hosts of factors ranging from quality, sales, reputation, service, prestige, etc etc and now you come on screaming that everything is determined by reputation/prestige and that is all. Yet those two factors alone are entirely subjective/opinion based. I think we agreed long ago that what contiutes the tiers and luxury is entirely opinion oriented yet you've just come on with your rant throwing down my throat how I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about with the tier system again and Cadillic. The only person that seems to have troubles when someone disagrees with them is you!
I don't know what is a better market indication of reputation then what I saw at the NY AutoShow last month. The German, and Lexus/Infiniti displays had triple the occupancy and crowds that Acura and Cadillac had. Personally, I think Acura and Cadillac are in a similar boat. They once had much higher reputation/prestige in this country then they do right now, and it has fallen off. They are both working to repair it and get up to the likes of BMW, MB, and Lexus.
You have put up the Japanese luxury brands based on all of this "experience" and put the Germans down for the opposite. Fact. Now you tried to do the same with Cadillac, apparently because you owned some, which is the first time in your comments you have any semblence of credibility. Good for you.
Next fact: I did not say anything about those things making up the tiers. I said those things make up the masses' perception, which in TURN is what the tiers are based on. You're the one trying to say otherwise....and who puts those words in my mouth as well. Like SSFTwhatever his name is, you guys look at the beginning and the end results but miss the bridge in the middle, but that's okay.
And where in the hell did I say I had a Cadillac? I said I had experience with them. I drove one in high school but it wasn't actually in my name and I don't consider it mine as a result. I then had a 2000 I30, 2002 ES300, and now a 2004 TL. I've driven a lot of Cadillacs over the years and those ones all lasted just fine, better than my Infiniti and Acura in fact. I'll try to tone down my Cadillac fanoyism though
Now grow up yourself and understand the truth usually lies in the medium of the "sides". That doesn't make you wishy washy. But then again your "experience" lies almost entirely with some people you know in real life and mostly in what you read on the internet. Nice!
You know what the problem is (not you, but in general)? People come on these sites and start talking and have zero idea what they're on about. It's hilarious to read some of these things.
Now I'm sure you'll throw more garbage on this thread in response to this so you have the last word and think you've won, so go ahead. You will not receive a response (or even my time) to the reply because the points have been made, and your silly bias of the system shows. You can tell who knows what's going on in here, and they stopped responding a long time ago. I'll take their lead on this one.
P.S. Sitting in them at an auto show doesn't mean a damned thing.
05-08-2010, 11:26 AM
#770
I'm sorry man if I was the buzz kill, but I'm just sick of not being able to give my opinion, assessment and reasoning without being told I'm completely wrong, bias, incorrect, stupid, dumb, or don't know what I'm talking about because they don't agree with me. I'm tired of people not being able to act like adults and politely and constructively disagree with people's opinion and assessments instead of constantly being patronized by people who think their opinion and reasoning is holier than thou!
I'm going to stop posting on here if people can't grow up and start behaving and discussing more politely and diplomatically.
I'm going to stop posting on here if people can't grow up and start behaving and discussing more politely and diplomatically.
05-08-2010, 11:48 AM
#772
I'm not going to respond to each and every point in that childish failure of a rant, but all my points remain standing.
You have put up the Japanese luxury brands based on all of this "experience" and put the Germans down for the opposite. Fact. Now you tried to do the same with Cadillac, apparently because you owned some, which is the first time in your comments you have any semblence of credibility. Good for you.
Next fact: I did not say anything about those things making up the tiers. I said those things make up the masses' perception, which in TURN is what the tiers are based on. You're the one trying to say otherwise....and who puts those words in my mouth as well. Like SSFTwhatever his name is, you guys look at the beginning and the end results but miss the bridge in the middle, but that's okay.
And where in the hell did I say I had a Cadillac? I said I had experience with them. I drove one in high school but it wasn't actually in my name and I don't consider it mine as a result. I then had a 2000 I30, 2002 ES300, and now a 2004 TL. I've driven a lot of Cadillacs over the years and those ones all lasted just fine, better than my Infiniti and Acura in fact. I'll try to tone down my Cadillac fanoyism though
Now grow up yourself and understand the truth usually lies in the medium of the "sides". That doesn't make you wishy washy. But then again your "experience" lies almost entirely with some people you know in real life and mostly in what you read on the internet. Nice!
You know what the problem is (not you, but in general)? People come on these sites and start talking and have zero idea what they're on about. It's hilarious to read some of these things.
Now I'm sure you'll throw more garbage on this thread in response to this so you have the last word and think you've won, so go ahead. You will not receive a response (or even my time) to the reply because the points have been made, and your silly bias of the system shows. You can tell who knows what's going on in here, and they stopped responding a long time ago. I'll take their lead on this one.
P.S. Sitting in them at an auto show doesn't mean a damned thing.
You have put up the Japanese luxury brands based on all of this "experience" and put the Germans down for the opposite. Fact. Now you tried to do the same with Cadillac, apparently because you owned some, which is the first time in your comments you have any semblence of credibility. Good for you.
Next fact: I did not say anything about those things making up the tiers. I said those things make up the masses' perception, which in TURN is what the tiers are based on. You're the one trying to say otherwise....and who puts those words in my mouth as well. Like SSFTwhatever his name is, you guys look at the beginning and the end results but miss the bridge in the middle, but that's okay.
And where in the hell did I say I had a Cadillac? I said I had experience with them. I drove one in high school but it wasn't actually in my name and I don't consider it mine as a result. I then had a 2000 I30, 2002 ES300, and now a 2004 TL. I've driven a lot of Cadillacs over the years and those ones all lasted just fine, better than my Infiniti and Acura in fact. I'll try to tone down my Cadillac fanoyism though
Now grow up yourself and understand the truth usually lies in the medium of the "sides". That doesn't make you wishy washy. But then again your "experience" lies almost entirely with some people you know in real life and mostly in what you read on the internet. Nice!
You know what the problem is (not you, but in general)? People come on these sites and start talking and have zero idea what they're on about. It's hilarious to read some of these things.
Now I'm sure you'll throw more garbage on this thread in response to this so you have the last word and think you've won, so go ahead. You will not receive a response (or even my time) to the reply because the points have been made, and your silly bias of the system shows. You can tell who knows what's going on in here, and they stopped responding a long time ago. I'll take their lead on this one.
P.S. Sitting in them at an auto show doesn't mean a damned thing.
!! My whole point is this. I don't mind you disagreeing with me. That is absolutely fine and I don't expect everyone to agree with what I'm saying. In fact, I think you started an argument over nothing, because you and I agreed a few weeks ago on another thread on here just exactly what makes up the tier system alone (reputation/perception/image) and how you and I felt that while perception/reputation is what constructs it, their is much more to luxury then just that, and everything in regards to perception/reputation is highly subjective and every single person, as this thread and others have proven, have completely different ideas where automakers rank, future projections, what constitutes luxury and what doesn't, what factors contribute, etc etc! So I think we actually overall agree with each other.
The last thing I would say is this, and actually this is not just directed at you but others on this thread. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but the way in which you do it. All I ask, is that you and everyone else just be a little bit more polite and nice about how and why you disagree with someone's opinion and assessments. That is all! You come across sometimes as very hostile and patronizing by just right out of the gates saying that someone is wrong, bias, or stupid to the point they have no idea what they are talking about. That is very not nice way to constructively critize/disagree with someone and we are all adults here and can do better than that. I have never, in all the threads on here that I replied to your comments, have treated or talked to you like that about your opinion. I don't know if you are intending to do that or not, but that is how it comes across and it is patronizing.
You can leave a reply or not I don't really care. Until next time!
?
05-08-2010, 12:18 PM
#775
hail to the victors
So everyone wants to play that game fine. Its opinion and it can't be wrong or right. Then if that is the case your assessment is definitely completely incorrect and wrong. Its laughable most of what you say anyway!
You are no seer or fortune teller. You can never say Acura, or Infiniti, Audi, etc or who ever will never be tier 1. There are just too many things that contribute to luxury, status, perception etc that you can't make statement like that. To say things in absolute like that is very ignorant and incorrect! You don't know, no one knows, so don't go making stupid statements like that! Nobody knows what will happen!
Looks like someone else has been drinking the BMW, MB, and Audi Kool-Aid
!!
Oh I don't care about Audi's status globally, or anyone else's for that matter. When I talk about this ridiculous tier system, which doesn't mean jack squat, I'm talking about this country. I've always been talking and referring about the luxury status and sales in this country. I don't care what it is in Canada, Eurpoe, Japan, or where ever! All I'm concerned with is here, in the good old US of A!
You are no seer or fortune teller. You can never say Acura, or Infiniti, Audi, etc or who ever will never be tier 1. There are just too many things that contribute to luxury, status, perception etc that you can't make statement like that. To say things in absolute like that is very ignorant and incorrect! You don't know, no one knows, so don't go making stupid statements like that! Nobody knows what will happen!
Looks like someone else has been drinking the BMW, MB, and Audi Kool-Aid
!!Oh I don't care about Audi's status globally, or anyone else's for that matter. When I talk about this ridiculous tier system, which doesn't mean jack squat, I'm talking about this country. I've always been talking and referring about the luxury status and sales in this country. I don't care what it is in Canada, Eurpoe, Japan, or where ever! All I'm concerned with is here, in the good old US of A!
Of course I'm no fortune teller. I just don't have a blind faith like you do. Yes, it's possible that Acura will someday be as prestigious as Benz. Anything is possible. look at what Hyundai has achieved in a short period of time. they are on pace to move ahead of Honda by 2015. Anything can happen. But what has Acura shown lately to believe that they will be there? That's like believing Tata will become Toyota someday. Compare what MB/BMW has in their arsenal and their global sales compared to Acura's. If Acura is just learning how to play basketball then those 2 giants are Bron and Wade.
if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Acura being the MB level in 20 years. that would take an herculean effort from Honda. they might even have to totally abandon Honda and solely focus on Acura/ I just don't see it. just look at the history. MB/BMW isn't going anywhere. and when you add 'people are shallow' factor, it will be tough to be mentioned as top 2 luxury brand in the world when you are just so so far away from the game.
same thing goes to Infiniti. Infiniti hasn't shown me anything for me to believe that they will someday be as desirable as Germans.
05-08-2010, 12:25 PM
#777
Of course I'm no fortune teller. I just don't have a blind faith like you do. Yes, it's possible that Acura will someday be as prestigious as Benz. Anything is possible. look at what Hyundai has achieved in a short period of time. they are on pace to move ahead of Honda by 2015. Anything can happen. But what has Acura shown lately to believe that they will be there? That's like believing Tata will become Toyota someday. Compare what MB/BMW has in their arsenal and their global sales compared to Acura's. If Acura is just learning how to play basketball then those 2 giants are Bron and Wade.
if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Acura being the MB level in 20 years. that would take an herculean effort from Honda. they might even have to totally abandon Honda and solely focus on Acura/ I just don't see it. just look at the history. MB/BMW isn't going anywhere. and when you add 'people are shallow' factor, it will be tough to be mentioned as top 2 luxury brand in the world when you are just so so far away from the game.
same thing goes to Infiniti. Infiniti hasn't shown me anything for me to believe that they will someday be as desirable as Germans.
if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Acura being the MB level in 20 years. that would take an herculean effort from Honda. they might even have to totally abandon Honda and solely focus on Acura/ I just don't see it. just look at the history. MB/BMW isn't going anywhere. and when you add 'people are shallow' factor, it will be tough to be mentioned as top 2 luxury brand in the world when you are just so so far away from the game.
same thing goes to Infiniti. Infiniti hasn't shown me anything for me to believe that they will someday be as desirable as Germans.
In regards to Infiniti though, I the new M is nice and much better improvement over the outgoing one but I don't think Infiniti did nearly enough to change it. Plus, I think they were overally mute in the styling changes. The new M just looks like a enlarge G37 and from a distance its hard to tell them apart. The design is going to show its age pretty quickly and I think that the Germans, American, and Lexus will pass the M quickly in their upcoming redesigns for their luxury sedans!
I do like the G37 and think it is a worthy competitor to the 3-series and think a lot of people find it desirable but again, the G, while it can keep up with a 3-series when it wants to, is no 3-Series and lacks several areas of refinement still that the 3-series has!
05-08-2010, 12:49 PM
#778
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They will probably be up. The industry is doing well and I'm seeing a fair share of new 2010 MDXs on my occasional commute. Said commute is through a few trendy suburban areas so the latest "thing" is what I immediately see on the road. Maybe that's just happening here, but it would appear the new MDX is doing well. The RL and RDX, not so much. I still do not see many TLs but a decent amount of new TSXs. Markets do adapt and so often a controversial design takes a year or two to pick up speed, so the TL is far from a sales flop just yet.
05-08-2010, 01:03 PM
#779
They will probably be up. The industry is doing well and I'm seeing a fair share of new 2010 MDXs on my occasional commute. Said commute is through a few trendy suburban areas so the latest "thing" is what I immediately see on the road. Maybe that's just happening here, but it would appear the new MDX is doing well. The RL and RDX, not so much. I still do not see many TLs but a decent amount of new TSXs. Markets do adapt and so often a controversial design takes a year or two to pick up speed, so the TL is far from a sales flop just yet.
05-08-2010, 01:07 PM
#780
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed! I constantly see MDX's all over the place. They are doing extremely well for Acura and seem to be the nameplate right now, especially with how well its selling. The TSX is doing good to and I see a lot of them as well, but not nearly as many MDX's! The RL, new TL, and RDX I do not see many of. I actually see a lot more 3G TL's, mine included of course, on the road then I do the 4G's! Just my observations thus far, at least here in NJ where I live. Can't speak for other areas of the country!
I've actually seen a few ZDXs now. I'd rather drive a truck than that waste of money.
I'd consider a RDX for a utility vehicle. They drive amazingly well, almost better in the bends than my 3G TL it seems. So flat and poised. But I'll hold onto the Ridgeline until I see what the new one looks like. I hope to all that is holy at Honda they don't make it even uglier.
05-08-2010, 01:20 PM
#781
I thought I had noted that too. Whoops.
I've actually seen a few ZDXs now. I'd rather drive a truck than that waste of money.
I'd consider a RDX for a utility vehicle. They drive amazingly well, almost better in the bends than my 3G TL it seems. So flat and poised. But I'll hold onto the Ridgeline until I see what the new one looks like. I hope to all that is holy at Honda they don't make it even uglier.
I've actually seen a few ZDXs now. I'd rather drive a truck than that waste of money.
I'd consider a RDX for a utility vehicle. They drive amazingly well, almost better in the bends than my 3G TL it seems. So flat and poised. But I'll hold onto the Ridgeline until I see what the new one looks like. I hope to all that is holy at Honda they don't make it even uglier.
Yeah, you better hope Honda don't go Accord Crosstour ugly on the Ridgeline's ass! I like the way the Ridgeline looks right now! I hope they don't screw that up! The Ridgeline is one of the only Honda models I actually like the styling on right now.
Last edited by smarty666; 05-08-2010 at 01:22 PM.
05-08-2010, 01:26 PM
#782
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, you've seen ZDX's? Thats amazing. I still have not seen one on the road yet, but my local Acura dealers still have not gotten any on the lot. I do agree with you, that thing is butt ugly.
Yeah, you better hope Honda don't go Accord Crosstour ugly on the Ridgeline's ass! I like the way the Ridgeline looks right now! I hope they don't screw that up!
Yeah, you better hope Honda don't go Accord Crosstour ugly on the Ridgeline's ass! I like the way the Ridgeline looks right now! I hope they don't screw that up!
Unfortunately the Ridgeline is already ugly. It isn't THAT ugly but definately ugly. I just acquired one because I needed a utility vehicle but didn't want or need a fullsize and didn't need a V-8 or full frame bucky boy ride quality. A nice car-like truck is all I needed with all the innovative goodies that thing has. I love it. It's just that it's ugly
05-08-2010, 02:09 PM
#783
Of course I'm no fortune teller. I just don't have a blind faith like you do. Yes, it's possible that Acura will someday be as prestigious as Benz. Anything is possible. look at what Hyundai has achieved in a short period of time. they are on pace to move ahead of Honda by 2015. Anything can happen. But what has Acura shown lately to believe that they will be there? That's like believing Tata will become Toyota someday. Compare what MB/BMW has in their arsenal and their global sales compared to Acura's. If Acura is just learning how to play basketball then those 2 giants are Bron and Wade.
if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Acura being the MB level in 20 years. that would take an herculean effort from Honda. they might even have to totally abandon Honda and solely focus on Acura/ I just don't see it. just look at the history. MB/BMW isn't going anywhere. and when you add 'people are shallow' factor, it will be tough to be mentioned as top 2 luxury brand in the world when you are just so so far away from the game.
same thing goes to Infiniti. Infiniti hasn't shown me anything for me to believe that they will someday be as desirable as Germans.
if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Acura being the MB level in 20 years. that would take an herculean effort from Honda. they might even have to totally abandon Honda and solely focus on Acura/ I just don't see it. just look at the history. MB/BMW isn't going anywhere. and when you add 'people are shallow' factor, it will be tough to be mentioned as top 2 luxury brand in the world when you are just so so far away from the game.
same thing goes to Infiniti. Infiniti hasn't shown me anything for me to believe that they will someday be as desirable as Germans.
My preidiction of Hyundai is it will end up like GM or Toyota. too many cheap models in too many countries with too many variations with doubt full long term reliability and resale value. It cannot become Honda.
Second almost 50% of Honda sales are in Pilot/Odysee/CRV/Cross tour/ridgeline. All of them are in pricess higher or closer to Gensis.
Even the basic Honda Fit start is at Hyundai Elantra price when equally equiped.
Honda is World #1 in reliabililty. Even in Germany it is No1
Honda brand is world#1 in resale value.
Honda has deep pockets built over decades of profits. Not even Asian crises of 1997 set them back.
MB/BMW will go down the drain as Audi crimps there profits and the more high end you go the higher the development expenses and longer R&D time.
I would not be surpized Honda replacing MHI as the premier development partner of Boeing. so every time you fly with Honda GE engines and Honda built airframe. this how you raise image. After RR image is not only due cars but RR aero.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...c-8d1d2f78f86e
The aircraft has been under development for decades now, so what’s a couple of extra months? Moreover, the parent company’s commitment seems more than firm.The research and administration buildings at the planemaker’s Greensboro, N.C., campus are completed, and construction of the main production facility is under way; the ribbon cutting should take place next year.
When done, Honda will have a brand new 600,000 sq ft plant – way more space than what’s needed to build a light twinjet. Why so much floor space?
“You don’t think we’re going to build all this for just one model of aircraft, do you?” one exec asked me. “This is Honda, after all, and they’re in it for the long haul. They're serious about the airplane business.”
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...n-hybrids.html
Honda’s factory in Wuhan, central China, is running on overtime to produce 1,013 vehicles a day due to high demand for the CR-V, said Isamu Matsuoka, deputy president of the carmaker’s joint venture with Dongfeng Motor Group Co.
Honda’s factory in Wuhan, central China, is running on overtime to produce 1,013 vehicles a day due to high demand for the CR-V, said Isamu Matsuoka, deputy president of the carmaker’s joint venture with Dongfeng Motor Group Co.
05-08-2010, 02:17 PM
#784
Yeah, although one of them was driven by my neighbor for a week and then he was back to his regular vehicle. Don't know what that was about being he isn't an Acura or Honda owner.
Unfortunately the Ridgeline is already ugly. It isn't THAT ugly but definately ugly. I just acquired one because I needed a utility vehicle but didn't want or need a fullsize and didn't need a V-8 or full frame bucky boy ride quality. A nice car-like truck is all I needed with all the innovative goodies that thing has. I love it. It's just that it's ugly
Unfortunately the Ridgeline is already ugly. It isn't THAT ugly but definately ugly. I just acquired one because I needed a utility vehicle but didn't want or need a fullsize and didn't need a V-8 or full frame bucky boy ride quality. A nice car-like truck is all I needed with all the innovative goodies that thing has. I love it. It's just that it's ugly
I tell you thought, I don't know what Honda and Acura have been smoking lately, but it must be some bad stuff because their styling direction and choices stink! Hopefully, for their sake, that will change, will just have to sit back and watch!
Personally for me, I've never been able to get into any of the Honda products because of my back. I have major back troubles, multiple surgeries and for some reason both the Honda cloth and leather seats are just too firm/uncomfortable on my back. Even with the lumbar support completely depressed, I can't even sit in them for a few minutes without getting some bad pain in my back. It is just the way their seats are designed and contour that it pushes right in on my fusion area.
I have had similar problems with Acura, namely the TSX and RDX in this same regard. The seats are just a little to firm for my back. Luckily for me, the TL's seats have been just right for my taste, as well as the RL's and MDX's! If it wasn't for the TL's seats being comfortable for me, I wouldn't have ever been even able to be in an Acura either!
Infiniti used to be great on my back. My FX35 seats are wonderful but that is a 2005. The last several years though, I've noticed Infiniti has firmed up the seats a little bit and now pretty much all the models bother my back.
The only makes I've had good luck with seat quality for my back is Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Mercedes, Ford, Subaru, and Audi!
Sorry to go off on little rant about seats but its turned in to an utter nightmare for me when car shopping now. It hurts so bad to turn down cars that I love because the seats are uncomfortable or because they lack a power front passenger seat! Anyway, my back is super uber sensitive compared to a normal person I know plenty of people who have had no troubles at all with Honda seats!
05-08-2010, 02:35 PM
#785
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I was over on edmunds reading some Caddy and BMW reviews but anyway, I'm glad you found something that fit your bill. There are just so many choices now a days that finding what you want and getting a good deal is like pulling teeth sometimes! I personally don't have use for a pick-up but its styling is okay. I mean overall I like it but its not super great either, but what ever!
I tell you thought, I don't know what Honda and Acura have been smoking lately, but it must be some bad stuff because their styling direction and choices stink! Hopefully, for their sake, that will change, will just have to sit back and watch!
Personally for me, I've never been able to get into any of the Honda products because of my back. I have major back troubles, multiple surgeries and for some reason both the Honda cloth and leather seats are just too firm/uncomfortable on my back. Even with the lumbar support completely depressed, I can't even sit in them for a few minutes without getting some bad pain in my back. It is just the way their seats are designed and contour that it pushes right in on my fusion area.
I have had similar problems with Acura, namely the TSX and RDX in this same regard. The seats are just a little to firm for my back. Luckily for me, the TL's seats have been just right for my taste, as well as the RL's and MDX's! If it wasn't for the TL's seats being comfortable for me, I wouldn't have ever been even able to be in an Acura either!
Infiniti used to be great on my back. My FX35 seats are wonderful but that is a 2005. The last several years though, I've noticed Infiniti has firmed up the seats a little bit and now pretty much all the models bother my back.
The only makes I've had good luck with seat quality for my back is Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Mercedes, Ford, Subaru, and Audi!
Sorry to go off on little rant about seats but its turned in to an utter nightmare for me when car shopping now. It hurts so bad to turn down cars that I love because the seats are uncomfortable or because they lack a power front passenger seat! Anyway, my back is super uber sensitive compared to a normal person I know plenty of people who have had no troubles at all with Honda seats!
I tell you thought, I don't know what Honda and Acura have been smoking lately, but it must be some bad stuff because their styling direction and choices stink! Hopefully, for their sake, that will change, will just have to sit back and watch!
Personally for me, I've never been able to get into any of the Honda products because of my back. I have major back troubles, multiple surgeries and for some reason both the Honda cloth and leather seats are just too firm/uncomfortable on my back. Even with the lumbar support completely depressed, I can't even sit in them for a few minutes without getting some bad pain in my back. It is just the way their seats are designed and contour that it pushes right in on my fusion area.
I have had similar problems with Acura, namely the TSX and RDX in this same regard. The seats are just a little to firm for my back. Luckily for me, the TL's seats have been just right for my taste, as well as the RL's and MDX's! If it wasn't for the TL's seats being comfortable for me, I wouldn't have ever been even able to be in an Acura either!
Infiniti used to be great on my back. My FX35 seats are wonderful but that is a 2005. The last several years though, I've noticed Infiniti has firmed up the seats a little bit and now pretty much all the models bother my back.
The only makes I've had good luck with seat quality for my back is Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Mercedes, Ford, Subaru, and Audi!
Sorry to go off on little rant about seats but its turned in to an utter nightmare for me when car shopping now. It hurts so bad to turn down cars that I love because the seats are uncomfortable or because they lack a power front passenger seat! Anyway, my back is super uber sensitive compared to a normal person I know plenty of people who have had no troubles at all with Honda seats!
Yeah the Ridgeline was a golden egg in the basket that is the truck market. Nothing else fits my needs other than the Dakota (crap interior, crap to drive, crap looks, crap reliability....but it does have a V-8 option) and the Sport Trac Ford thing which offers a crappy V-6 and a V-8 with awesome potential but I don't want to modify it. I'd rather just have a good V-6 and neither of them offered that. Honda's Ridgeline interior isn't sexy but the quality is a trillion times better than their trucks, not to mention the way they drive and all the little touches they have. Rumor has it that Honda won't replace the Ridgeline after 2011, so I guess if that's the case I'll buy a 2011 Ridgeline RTL when the time comes. We don't "need" a truck either but it's always nice to have that bed that you can throw random gooey, dirty, nasty junk in and it won't dent or scratch so you don't have to pussy-foot around when you are hauling. I really wish it had a new powertrain, like a Hondaized version of the J37 with the 6-speed, but oh well.
Health problems are always a bitch when you love vehicles.
Luckily I haven't any yet. Regardless I don't think my next daily with be a Honda product. My wife will never drive a Japanese car after her Audis and I'm thinking my next car will be something Korean or American, maybe the next CTS or ATS. Don't really need a big car since the Ridgie is always available for use. The new Cadillacs have some serious style and drive well. The TL gives me no reason to consider it or its TSX brother over Cadillac, the next Infiniti G37, or a multitude of other products. Maybe I'll buy the 2012 A6 supercharged V-6. Maybe. I don't want to spend nearly 60 grand all in. I'm cheap.
05-08-2010, 02:48 PM
#786
I'm supposed to be working while the system is down anyways....oh the joy I get from that. Haha.
Yeah the Ridgeline was a golden egg in the basket that is the truck market. Nothing else fits my needs other than the Dakota (crap interior, crap to drive, crap looks, crap reliability....but it does have a V-8 option) and the Sport Trac Ford thing which offers a crappy V-6 and a V-8 with awesome potential but I don't want to modify it. I'd rather just have a good V-6 and neither of them offered that. Honda's Ridgeline interior isn't sexy but the quality is a trillion times better than their trucks, not to mention the way they drive and all the little touches they have. Rumor has it that Honda won't replace the Ridgeline after 2011, so I guess if that's the case I'll buy a 2011 Ridgeline RTL when the time comes. We don't "need" a truck either but it's always nice to have that bed that you can throw random gooey, dirty, nasty junk in and it won't dent or scratch so you don't have to pussy-foot around when you are hauling. I really wish it had a new powertrain, like a Hondaized version of the J37 with the 6-speed, but oh well.
Health problems are always a bitch when you love vehicles.
Luckily I haven't any yet. Regardless I don't think my next daily with be a Honda product. My wife will never drive a Japanese car after her Audis and I'm thinking my next car will be something Korean or American, maybe the next CTS or ATS. Don't really need a big car since the Ridgie is always available for use. The new Cadillacs have some serious style and drive well. The TL gives me no reason to consider it or its TSX brother over Cadillac, the next Infiniti G37, or a multitude of other products. Maybe I'll buy the 2012 A6 supercharged V-6. Maybe. I don't want to spend nearly 60 grand all in. I'm cheap.
Yeah the Ridgeline was a golden egg in the basket that is the truck market. Nothing else fits my needs other than the Dakota (crap interior, crap to drive, crap looks, crap reliability....but it does have a V-8 option) and the Sport Trac Ford thing which offers a crappy V-6 and a V-8 with awesome potential but I don't want to modify it. I'd rather just have a good V-6 and neither of them offered that. Honda's Ridgeline interior isn't sexy but the quality is a trillion times better than their trucks, not to mention the way they drive and all the little touches they have. Rumor has it that Honda won't replace the Ridgeline after 2011, so I guess if that's the case I'll buy a 2011 Ridgeline RTL when the time comes. We don't "need" a truck either but it's always nice to have that bed that you can throw random gooey, dirty, nasty junk in and it won't dent or scratch so you don't have to pussy-foot around when you are hauling. I really wish it had a new powertrain, like a Hondaized version of the J37 with the 6-speed, but oh well.
Health problems are always a bitch when you love vehicles.
Luckily I haven't any yet. Regardless I don't think my next daily with be a Honda product. My wife will never drive a Japanese car after her Audis and I'm thinking my next car will be something Korean or American, maybe the next CTS or ATS. Don't really need a big car since the Ridgie is always available for use. The new Cadillacs have some serious style and drive well. The TL gives me no reason to consider it or its TSX brother over Cadillac, the next Infiniti G37, or a multitude of other products. Maybe I'll buy the 2012 A6 supercharged V-6. Maybe. I don't want to spend nearly 60 grand all in. I'm cheap.
05-08-2010, 02:50 PM
#787
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah I'm probably waiting until the TL turns the big 1-0 for that very reason: so much is coming on in the next few years.
Now I must run for the last minute Mother's Day shopping. Don't judge me.
Now I must run for the last minute Mother's Day shopping. Don't judge me.
05-08-2010, 04:38 PM
#788
Race Director
In regards to Infiniti though, I the new M is nice and much better improvement over the outgoing one but I don't think Infiniti did nearly enough to change it. Plus, I think they were overally mute in the styling changes. The new M just looks like a enlarge G37 and from a distance its hard to tell them apart. The design is going to show its age pretty quickly and I think that the Germans, American, and Lexus will pass the M quickly in their upcoming redesigns for their luxury sedans!
A) update the current model and follow the general G37 styling trend (which is doing well in sales), or
B) try something totally new
Hmm.....
05-08-2010, 06:41 PM
#789
Let's see - it's late 2007 or early 2008, the M is about to pass the GS in sales and the upper management at Nissan is about to approve the next gen design. The choices are:
A) update the current model and follow the general G37 styling trend (which is doing well in sales), or
B) try something totally new
Hmm.....
A) update the current model and follow the general G37 styling trend (which is doing well in sales), or
B) try something totally new
Hmm.....
I'm really looking forward more to what the G25 is going to look and be like, along with the next Generation G Sedan when its redesigned. Should be interesting to see. If Infiniti goes in the direction of their Essence concept with the 3rd Gen G, that I saw at the auto show, that is definitely the direction to go!
05-08-2010, 07:31 PM
#791
Race Director
05-08-2010, 09:17 PM
#792
hail to the victors
how is Hyundai going to surpass Honda in 2015?.there is nothing linear in car business. one mistake can destroy a company.
My preidiction of Hyundai is it will end up like GM or Toyota. too many cheap models in too many countries with too many variations with doubt full long term reliability and resale value. It cannot become Honda.
Second almost 50% of Honda sales are in Pilot/Odysee/CRV/Cross tour/ridgeline. All of them are in pricess higher or closer to Gensis.
Even the basic Honda Fit start is at Hyundai Elantra price when equally equiped.
Honda is World #1 in reliabililty. Even in Germany it is No1
Honda brand is world#1 in resale value.
Honda has deep pockets built over decades of profits. Not even Asian crises of 1997 set them back.
MB/BMW will go down the drain as Audi crimps there profits and the more high end you go the higher the development expenses and longer R&D time.
I would not be surpized Honda replacing MHI as the premier development partner of Boeing. so every time you fly with Honda GE engines and Honda built airframe. this how you raise image. After RR image is not only due cars but RR aero.
Honda lead in SUV is not limited to NA. it is better to sell CRV than Elantra/Sonata.
My preidiction of Hyundai is it will end up like GM or Toyota. too many cheap models in too many countries with too many variations with doubt full long term reliability and resale value. It cannot become Honda.
Second almost 50% of Honda sales are in Pilot/Odysee/CRV/Cross tour/ridgeline. All of them are in pricess higher or closer to Gensis.
Even the basic Honda Fit start is at Hyundai Elantra price when equally equiped.
Honda is World #1 in reliabililty. Even in Germany it is No1
Honda brand is world#1 in resale value.
Honda has deep pockets built over decades of profits. Not even Asian crises of 1997 set them back.
MB/BMW will go down the drain as Audi crimps there profits and the more high end you go the higher the development expenses and longer R&D time.
I would not be surpized Honda replacing MHI as the premier development partner of Boeing. so every time you fly with Honda GE engines and Honda built airframe. this how you raise image. After RR image is not only due cars but RR aero.
Honda lead in SUV is not limited to NA. it is better to sell CRV than Elantra/Sonata.
globally, hyundai already surpassed honda in sales. and while hyundai's image is getting better and better, Honda really has went backwards in terms of the brand image.
don't blame me, blame Honda's stupid regime.
05-08-2010, 09:29 PM
#793
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know that Hyundai will surpass Honda by mid-decade. Last year they sold what, a third of what Honda sold in the States?
However, as already stated they have beaten Honda's sales globally for some time now I believe. Also, KBB's study found that Hyundai's customer satisfaction and loyalty in the States as well.
The soon-to-be empire that is Hyundai-Kia Auto Group is mounting.
However, as already stated they have beaten Honda's sales globally for some time now I believe. Also, KBB's study found that Hyundai's customer satisfaction and loyalty in the States as well.
The soon-to-be empire that is Hyundai-Kia Auto Group is mounting.
05-08-2010, 10:26 PM
#794
hail to the victors
this year honda will double the hyundai's sales. not 3 times.
anyway, hyundai will have to make a new plant because montgomery plant is at full capacity and they will no longer be able to build sonata/santa fe together. sonata is just too hot right now. tucson shortage is worldwide, and sonata shortage will soon happen when the turbo/hybrid arrives. hyundai can easily sell 250k sonata a year when sonata turbo/hybrid arrives. and new elantra will double the current elantra's sales.
by 2013 hyundai should achieve these numbers.
sonata - 250k a year
elantra - 200k a year
those numbers alone matches current hyundai's total sales. and it seems like hyundai will continue to add new cars. i think hyundai will reach the magical '1 million' a year within 5-6 years.
it's safe to say hyundai will sell a lot of cars. question is will honda grow or stay where they are? if they do stay where they are at right now then i don't see how hyundai not passing honda. honda must grow or hyundai/kia will eat them alive sooner or later.
anyway, hyundai will have to make a new plant because montgomery plant is at full capacity and they will no longer be able to build sonata/santa fe together. sonata is just too hot right now. tucson shortage is worldwide, and sonata shortage will soon happen when the turbo/hybrid arrives. hyundai can easily sell 250k sonata a year when sonata turbo/hybrid arrives. and new elantra will double the current elantra's sales.
by 2013 hyundai should achieve these numbers.
sonata - 250k a year
elantra - 200k a year
those numbers alone matches current hyundai's total sales. and it seems like hyundai will continue to add new cars. i think hyundai will reach the magical '1 million' a year within 5-6 years.
it's safe to say hyundai will sell a lot of cars. question is will honda grow or stay where they are? if they do stay where they are at right now then i don't see how hyundai not passing honda. honda must grow or hyundai/kia will eat them alive sooner or later.
Last edited by chungkopi; 05-08-2010 at 10:30 PM.
05-08-2010, 10:35 PM
#795
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see Honda growing much at all. They refuse to do V-8s or body on frame platforms so trucks or big SUVs are pretty much out. They never do more than one sports car at a time. No off road vehicles, none of that. Just the subcompact, compact, and midsize sedans, a couple of coupe versions of said sedans, SUVs, a van, and that's about it. At best we may get the City or a mini-minivan.
Hyundai may not go up much more in products but with sports cars and luxury cars they get some of their equivalent "Acura" competitors under the Hyundai tent.
Hyundai may not go up much more in products but with sports cars and luxury cars they get some of their equivalent "Acura" competitors under the Hyundai tent.
05-08-2010, 10:52 PM
#796
hail to the victors
People still have a faith in Honda. Honda isn't going anywhere. but i just think that hyundai will follow toyota's fate. like Samsung, their growth won't stop IMO.
I'm an old school. I'm a legend, prelude, 99 civic SI kinda guy. i loved my civic and CLS. I have a giant NSX posters in my room. but I don't love current honda's direction right now. I really do hope Honda hires a new designer. I would love for them to steal Peter Schreyer from Kia. He would do wonders for Honda.
anyway, hyundai isn't just growing in sales. they are doing a great job in enthusiasts world.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ngs/index.html
#2 behind mustang GT. that's a great accomplishment.
Honda needs to give us something like Genesis coupe. I will be the happiest guy if Honda can deliever us something more than Civic SI.
I'm an old school. I'm a legend, prelude, 99 civic SI kinda guy. i loved my civic and CLS. I have a giant NSX posters in my room. but I don't love current honda's direction right now. I really do hope Honda hires a new designer. I would love for them to steal Peter Schreyer from Kia. He would do wonders for Honda.
anyway, hyundai isn't just growing in sales. they are doing a great job in enthusiasts world.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ngs/index.html
#2 behind mustang GT. that's a great accomplishment.
Honda needs to give us something like Genesis coupe. I will be the happiest guy if Honda can deliever us something more than Civic SI.
05-09-2010, 12:10 AM
#797
again, i'm no fortune teller, but hyundai has been growing every year for last 10 years. As i predicted before, Hyundai will have 10% U.S marketshare by 2016. that's just my prediction. it can happen or hyundai might go bankrupt next year. i don't know. but i would bet my money on hyundai's scary momentum. i really think they will continue to grow in sales and in perception. you think hyundai has all the momentum right now? wait till sonata turbo, elantra, and veloster hit the shore.
globally, hyundai already surpassed honda in sales. and while hyundai's image is getting better and better, Honda really has went backwards in terms of the brand image.
don't blame me, blame Honda's stupid regime.
globally, hyundai already surpassed honda in sales. and while hyundai's image is getting better and better, Honda really has went backwards in terms of the brand image.
don't blame me, blame Honda's stupid regime.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vol...k=MW_news_stmp
Globally. Honda is selling more expensive Vehciles. so how is Honda image going backward. It is going forward with more expensive vehicle and SH-AWD tech across the line. Only in S4/X6 you can find this technology.
Honda can easily introduce Honda City Sedan that can crimp Accent/Elantra sales.
http://www.carazoo.com/article/06012...-Cars-in-India
Honda City is known to be one of the safest and highest selling used car in India
Honda City is known to be one of the safest and highest selling used car in India
As i said there are too many variables going forward like giving MMC to Honda Accord. Introductiong of New Civic, New Odyssey
TSX wagon, MMC to TL/TSX and replacement of RDX. and hybrids with newest battery much more advance than Toyota. There is nothing in Hyundai technology that Honda cant introduce.
Honda 6speed auto will beat Hyundai 8 speed auto in real world mileage as 5speed auto Accord is beating 6speed Sonata. Hyundai cant make MDX or TSX competitor. just the Cd of TSX is on different league. thats why it is car of the year in Australlia. I also want to see Hyundai sport sedan pullin 0.92g
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/honda...mpg-27839.html
In concept, the Honda Insight was intended to compete as a more affordable alternative to Toyota Prius. But the price of the Insight, typically in the low $20,000s, is not the much cheaper than a Prius—and the fuel economy is considerably lower
In addition to trying to beat the mileage of the Prius, Ito wants to roll out a new two-motor hybrid technical design—one motor employed to increase engine power and another to solely charge the battery. The new system is also likely to switch to lithium ion batteries from the nickel metal hydride technology currently in use. Honda will apply its new hybrid approach to a minivan and in Acura models. A rework of Honda's hybrid system could potentially create a technology pathway to plug-in hybrids.
Yet, Honda engineers and designers should take heed to Fifth Gear’s positive feedback on features that could be applied to future hybrids. Graham calls the interior “mad and brilliant,” and praises the availability of a six-speed manual gearbox—a first for hybrids. Given the CR-Z’s moderate level of high-speed handling and cool interactive dashboard features, the reviewer said, “You can’t accuse it of being dull.” Pricing in the US for the CR-Z has not yet been announced
In concept, the Honda Insight was intended to compete as a more affordable alternative to Toyota Prius. But the price of the Insight, typically in the low $20,000s, is not the much cheaper than a Prius—and the fuel economy is considerably lower
In addition to trying to beat the mileage of the Prius, Ito wants to roll out a new two-motor hybrid technical design—one motor employed to increase engine power and another to solely charge the battery. The new system is also likely to switch to lithium ion batteries from the nickel metal hydride technology currently in use. Honda will apply its new hybrid approach to a minivan and in Acura models. A rework of Honda's hybrid system could potentially create a technology pathway to plug-in hybrids.
Yet, Honda engineers and designers should take heed to Fifth Gear’s positive feedback on features that could be applied to future hybrids. Graham calls the interior “mad and brilliant,” and praises the availability of a six-speed manual gearbox—a first for hybrids. Given the CR-Z’s moderate level of high-speed handling and cool interactive dashboard features, the reviewer said, “You can’t accuse it of being dull.” Pricing in the US for the CR-Z has not yet been announced
05-09-2010, 12:16 AM
#798
People still have a faith in Honda. Honda isn't going anywhere. but i just think that hyundai will follow toyota's fate. like Samsung, their growth won't stop IMO.
I'm an old school. I'm a legend, prelude, 99 civic SI kinda guy. i loved my civic and CLS. I have a giant NSX posters in my room. but I don't love current honda's direction right now. I really do hope Honda hires a new designer. I would love for them to steal Peter Schreyer from Kia. He would do wonders for Honda.
anyway, hyundai isn't just growing in sales. they are doing a great job in enthusiasts world.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ngs/index.html
#2 behind mustang GT. that's a great accomplishment.
Honda needs to give us something like Genesis coupe. I will be the happiest guy if Honda can deliever us something more than Civic SI.
I'm an old school. I'm a legend, prelude, 99 civic SI kinda guy. i loved my civic and CLS. I have a giant NSX posters in my room. but I don't love current honda's direction right now. I really do hope Honda hires a new designer. I would love for them to steal Peter Schreyer from Kia. He would do wonders for Honda.
anyway, hyundai isn't just growing in sales. they are doing a great job in enthusiasts world.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ngs/index.html
#2 behind mustang GT. that's a great accomplishment.
Honda needs to give us something like Genesis coupe. I will be the happiest guy if Honda can deliever us something more than Civic SI.
http://job.samsung.ru/
Hyundai has different dynamics. It will face Indian who own now JLR group. It will face Chinese who will have Volvo tech and alot of other companies coming up in about 5 years time. you need to have 20 to 30 years of continous profits to survive in auto industry. otherwise it will become
Renault-Nissan-Avtovaz-Daimler alliance or Fiat-Chrysler-Solares alliance .
05-09-2010, 01:50 AM
#799
hail to the victors
you love for Honda/acura is pretty passionate. I'll give you that.
however your blind love won't help honda. Honda needs take all the tough criticism and try to get better. you think i'm being tough on Honda? try every other forums and enthusiasts magazines. Honda/Acura is getting beat up right now. kinda sad.. I got tired of defending honda/acura this time around last year.
but i believe honda/acura still has a chance to get up and correct all the mistakes they've made. Honda's build quality is still a top notch. fit/finish is there and we all know hondas are relatively reliable. toyota fiasco didn't help the reliable image, but still when we think of reliablity, we think of Honda. (minus my CLS with 3 blown trannies
)
but people buy because 'it's a honda' won't work anymore. just like you said, competition is everywhere. it's too fierce. Ford is kickin serious a$$, GM is getting better and better, and hyundai/kia continues to impress the world. i don't know when india/china will arrive, but i expect chinese cars to enter the U.S market and be competitve within next 10-15 years. there will be significant changes in the market. there will be new players, and there will be a dying brand. in a crazy world we live in, anything can happen and it will happen fast. Honda can become the next toyota or honda can fall off the cliff like Chrysler. no one knows. but all i know is that Honda isn't doing well right now. Honda's image and quality of cars were so much better 7-10 years ago.
my only problem with honda is their poor decision making especially on design. i really don't care if they develop v8 or not. no RWD? i don't even care about that. I think it all started with a questionable design decisions. i just have tough time understanding their decision to 'ok' the beak, and design of pointless crossovers like crosstour and ZDX. CRZ would've been great if it had better mpg than a typical midsize sedan hybrid. ZDX is on pace to sell less than 4000 a year. i personally don't think it's ugly. however when 99% of people says it's ugly then i guess it's ugly. on top of that it will win an award for being one of the least practical car ever made. seriously, honda was known for building a car that was practical. crosstour isn't as bad as ZDX in terms of practicality, but again the design isn't there. Insight was supposed to be a prius arch-enemy, but it's getting beat up badly. it has the hybrid look, it's a honda, but too bad its mpg is very poor compared to prius and many say the ride is horrendous. and acura has yet to figure out how to design and sell a 50k car in RL.
and then there is TL. last gen Acura TL is my 2nd favorite car(1st being E46 m3) in last decade. TL was the perfect Japanese answer to 3 series. it was good enough to take chunk of 3 series sales. it was the perfect entry level luxury that screamed Japanese. it was the perfect Acura. it was the car that i was proud to drive. But just look at the current TL and its place in the entry luxury world. it's no longer relevant in the entry luxury world. Acura has managed to completely ruin TL by giving them an weird looking design. I admit it has grown on me. It doesn't bother me anymore. but again, haters are having a field day whenever acura is mentioned. my mom who never has an opinion about cars didn't like the TL because of the 'shiny beak'. she bought a boring ES350 instead. honda/acura can't afford to have another polarizing design. it really might destroy the brand.
i think the next batch of new models will tell if my prediction will come true or not. i'll wait and see what honda will do next. if they don't hit home run, i believe hyundai will soon catch honda someday. probably by the time when the new sonata arrives.
however your blind love won't help honda. Honda needs take all the tough criticism and try to get better. you think i'm being tough on Honda? try every other forums and enthusiasts magazines. Honda/Acura is getting beat up right now. kinda sad.. I got tired of defending honda/acura this time around last year.
but i believe honda/acura still has a chance to get up and correct all the mistakes they've made. Honda's build quality is still a top notch. fit/finish is there and we all know hondas are relatively reliable. toyota fiasco didn't help the reliable image, but still when we think of reliablity, we think of Honda. (minus my CLS with 3 blown trannies
) but people buy because 'it's a honda' won't work anymore. just like you said, competition is everywhere. it's too fierce. Ford is kickin serious a$$, GM is getting better and better, and hyundai/kia continues to impress the world. i don't know when india/china will arrive, but i expect chinese cars to enter the U.S market and be competitve within next 10-15 years. there will be significant changes in the market. there will be new players, and there will be a dying brand. in a crazy world we live in, anything can happen and it will happen fast. Honda can become the next toyota or honda can fall off the cliff like Chrysler. no one knows. but all i know is that Honda isn't doing well right now. Honda's image and quality of cars were so much better 7-10 years ago.
my only problem with honda is their poor decision making especially on design. i really don't care if they develop v8 or not. no RWD? i don't even care about that. I think it all started with a questionable design decisions. i just have tough time understanding their decision to 'ok' the beak, and design of pointless crossovers like crosstour and ZDX. CRZ would've been great if it had better mpg than a typical midsize sedan hybrid. ZDX is on pace to sell less than 4000 a year. i personally don't think it's ugly. however when 99% of people says it's ugly then i guess it's ugly. on top of that it will win an award for being one of the least practical car ever made. seriously, honda was known for building a car that was practical. crosstour isn't as bad as ZDX in terms of practicality, but again the design isn't there. Insight was supposed to be a prius arch-enemy, but it's getting beat up badly. it has the hybrid look, it's a honda, but too bad its mpg is very poor compared to prius and many say the ride is horrendous. and acura has yet to figure out how to design and sell a 50k car in RL.
and then there is TL. last gen Acura TL is my 2nd favorite car(1st being E46 m3) in last decade. TL was the perfect Japanese answer to 3 series. it was good enough to take chunk of 3 series sales. it was the perfect entry level luxury that screamed Japanese. it was the perfect Acura. it was the car that i was proud to drive. But just look at the current TL and its place in the entry luxury world. it's no longer relevant in the entry luxury world. Acura has managed to completely ruin TL by giving them an weird looking design. I admit it has grown on me. It doesn't bother me anymore. but again, haters are having a field day whenever acura is mentioned. my mom who never has an opinion about cars didn't like the TL because of the 'shiny beak'. she bought a boring ES350 instead. honda/acura can't afford to have another polarizing design. it really might destroy the brand.
i think the next batch of new models will tell if my prediction will come true or not. i'll wait and see what honda will do next. if they don't hit home run, i believe hyundai will soon catch honda someday. probably by the time when the new sonata arrives.
05-09-2010, 01:54 AM
#800
hail to the victors
anyway, I don't get your love for City. New Elantra is much better looking IMO. and i'm sure it will do well. most likely it will double the current elantra sales not just in the U.S, but globally. I'm currently vacationing in Antigua and I see City everywhere. City is not a good looking car compared to civic. it' an ok looking car IMO.
corolla/civic are the perennial tag team champ from Japan. I think Elantra will join Focus and Cruze to threaten the long dominance from Japanese compact cars. Personally, new Elantra is the best looking hyundai to date. the design perfectly makes sense. Hyundai has designed Elantra so it can dominate the world. hyundai designed so it can be sold in Europe and every parts of the country. Current gen elantra would be laughed at if it was sold in the europe. and the new elantra will dominate the small countries/growing market. I've been to Malaysia recently and people think new elantra is the 2nd coming. they once thought Hyundai was slightly better version of their Proton. but now Hyundai is more desirable than any honda/toyota to them. go to paultan.org and see their reaction of any new hyundai news.
Hyundai has figured out the U.S market IMO. i only see unstoppable growth for next 5-6 years. maybe they will max out, but definitely not now because of the new models they are bringing in. I think they are focusing on other markets right now. i expect hyundai to make record breaking sales in all other countries. even the small market like malaysia.
corolla/civic are the perennial tag team champ from Japan. I think Elantra will join Focus and Cruze to threaten the long dominance from Japanese compact cars. Personally, new Elantra is the best looking hyundai to date. the design perfectly makes sense. Hyundai has designed Elantra so it can dominate the world. hyundai designed so it can be sold in Europe and every parts of the country. Current gen elantra would be laughed at if it was sold in the europe. and the new elantra will dominate the small countries/growing market. I've been to Malaysia recently and people think new elantra is the 2nd coming. they once thought Hyundai was slightly better version of their Proton. but now Hyundai is more desirable than any honda/toyota to them. go to paultan.org and see their reaction of any new hyundai news.
Hyundai has figured out the U.S market IMO. i only see unstoppable growth for next 5-6 years. maybe they will max out, but definitely not now because of the new models they are bringing in. I think they are focusing on other markets right now. i expect hyundai to make record breaking sales in all other countries. even the small market like malaysia.
Last edited by chungkopi; 05-09-2010 at 01:59 AM.