Hyundai: Genesis News
12-25-2012, 05:23 PM
#3081
I'm starting to like Hyundai cars but as far as I know hyundai is the largest ship builder as well with various engineering sectors so are they totally focused on their automotive division. I feel like they could do more with the genesis line if they focus more on their car division then lets say ship building although I read they were given a billion dollar vessel contract. My point hyundai needs to give bigger focus on the car
There is also a Hyundai bank, a Hyundai credit card company, a Hyundai department store, etc.
One has nothing to do w/ any of the others.
12-25-2012, 06:37 PM
#3082
Korea has very small domestic market.it is pretty much irrelevant. Toyota has Crown, Mark X, Premio XEX etc. So Lexus is not much relevant to Japan domestic market.
Would be top 10 (maybe top 9) in terms of overall value of market, being higher than India and maybe Russia when it comes to higher priced autos.
BMW in fact sells more of its 5 and 7 Series in Korea than Japan (Korea being one of its most profitable markets) - which is why they are building a driver's experience center w/ a track in Korea and not in Japan.
And the Japanese market doesn't support midsize/large sedan sales - which is why Nissan has stopped making the President and Mitsu, the Proudia - and why Nissan is letting Mitsu sell rebadged versions of the Cima (that's the M for those who don't know).
And the fact that Toyota sells luxury models in Japan exactly proves my point.
Even after Toyota switched the Toyota branded Celsior (aka the LS) to the Lexus nameplate, the flagship of the Toyota corporate fleet still remained a Toyota and not a Lexus, the Toyota Century.
Genesis is selling at price of TSX which is downgraded Euro Accord. It does not belong to any category.
See this example. Sonata Hybrid is selling at price of a Civic.
According to research by Edmunds.com, the $19,711 average transaction price of the 2012 Hyundai Elantra is besting that of its chief rivals, the Toyota Corolla by $1,500 and the new Honda Civic by $500. The great big cherry on top of that sundae for Hyundai? Elantra sales were up more than 40 percent last year.
Gee, I wonder what the discounts on the Civic hybrid were?
Acura RLX Super Sport 3 Motor Hybrid electric AWD. It is category of its own. It remain to be seen whether other car makers can enter this category. As I said Acura is not going to follow other makers.
Matt VanDyke tells us that Lincoln isn’t aiming to sell 250,000 cars—about what the big German players each did this year in the U.S.—overnight. The Lincoln Motor Company branding helps to reposition it, though. “We’re aiming to change from ‘smart luxury,’ ” VanDyke says, referring to the way Ford tried to portray Lincoln for the last decade or so as a brand selling cars based on price. “Lincoln will still be a good value, but we want to be considered in the same mindset as a Lexus or Mercedes-Benz,” cars that people want because of image or features first. “But for customers who want something different.”
The RLX fits right in the same category as the XTS and MKS.
They are not seeling at higher price point than Acura.
The 2G Genesis will be getting a significant price bump - to start around $38-39k for the base model.
The upcoming RK RWD compact sedan will start around $28-29k which is higher than the ILX.
So...
Equus > RLX
Genesis > TLX (the TLX will be getting smaller so it will remain the same price, if not actually get a little cheaper)
RK > ILX
Hyundai.
The Equus will continue to be included in comparison w/ the likes of the S Class, etc., the RLX, instead, will be compared to the XTS and MKS.
Seems to me the one which "cheapened" out was the automaker which didn't want to pony up to invest in RWD platforms.
Interior size is equal to 7 series. So Acura was not wrong about it interior dimension.
Acura is bragging that the interior size of the RLX is equivalent to the 7 Series as well (not to mention the Accord having been classified as a full size based on interior room).
TSX have nearly equal space as 3 series so its competitor. The fact that RLX has same interior space as 7 series it makes it competitor. and I am willing to bet that FWD RLX will be faster and handle better than 740.
So you do admit the RLX is a 7 Series competitor.
Faster than the 740 maybe, but not faster than the 750i.
And maybe the RLX will be a better handler than the 7 Series as well (likely will be a better handler than the LS460) - but nonetheless, it will be priced below the LS and even more so beneath the 7 Series, luxury badge and dealer network and all.
At a throw away prices. Otherwise how you can explain the complete collapse in used prices of Genesis.
Irrelevant comparision. What is the lease rate of GS. (give hint it is near to Eqqus). And how many used 2012/12 GS u can find compared to Genesis at bargain basement prices. (Answer is Zero).
See Eqqus lease rate and discounts
See Eqqus lease rate and discounts
The BMW 3 Series has really aggressive lease rates and even those don't match what Infiniti has been offering on the G.
And besides, low lease rates are only economically feasible if the model in question retains its resale value.
It sells for lower priced than Lexus ES. Acura will sell RLX at price higher than Lexus GS when comparably equipped.
The new Azera has a sticker that almost as high as the ES even tho it is supposed to compete w/ the Avalon and ALG awarded the Azera for top residual value in the full size car segment.
Don’t compare Hyundai Junk with Lexus launch. Lexus price for the same vehicle quickly approach $50k by early 90s. and here Hyundia is still cutting prices and offering more engines and transmission. Lexus maintained the same 260bhp engine for nearly 12 years. This is called brand value.
The LS400 started w/ a absurdly low price of $35k.
By the early 1990s, the price went up to around $40k.
Until the refreshed LS460 launched, the LS was only starting at $67k.
And the rest of your post doesn't make any sense.
The Genesis sedan has gone up in price every year and the 2G will get a major bump in price (see the Azera which saw a $6k rise in price).
Meanwhile Lexus has been cutting engine options, no longer offering a V8 for the GS, but still, that's better than nothing since Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS.
It is still way higher than Eqqus.
Meanwhile the LS was more than $20k cheaper than the S Class.
So despite Hyundai not having to price in the cost of a luxury nameplate and separate dealer network, the LS was closer in price to the Equus than it was to the S Class and Equus is a new entry to the segment while the LS (as even you had noted) has had time to raise it price over the decades.
S class is much larger car than LS. LS is $25k more expensive comparably equipped than Eqqus.
The Infiniti G is larger than the C Class or 3 Series and yet is cheaper.
Heck, b/c Acura's lineup is FWD, it's entire lineup is larger and has to compete at a price one segment below or more.
But that is a totally moot point since the S Class is not larger, much less "much larger" than the LS.
Both the SWB LS and S Class are around 200" in length and the LWB version of the S Class is only an inch longer than the LWB LS.
Really, do you ever get anything correct?
Hyundai will remain bargain brand. Its products are mediocre. Its resale prices collapse very quickly.
But yes, Hyundai will remain a full-line, mainstream brand.
Hyundai does not give u saving due to depreciation hit.
And the depreciation hit on luxury sedans like the S Class is much worse.
You bump price for Genesis. Its sales will collapse. The brand does not have any value to charge higher price.
Luxury never equals RWD+V8. There are 4 cylinder Audi A8 that is still luxury. And there is Ford Crown Victoria famous Taxi vehicle.
A RWD/longitudinal engine layout allows for not only a smoother ride, but for a more powerful powerplant and better handling.
Why do you think MB and BMW outsell Audi significantly in the US despite charging higher prices than Audi (Audi can't charge the same prices)?
Why do you think Audi doesn't sell FWD A7s and A8s in the US?
Why do you think the midsize FWD Lexus ES is priced against the compact segment? Ditto for the TL and MKZ.
Why do you think that for their new nomenclature system, Infiniti slots the much larger 3 row JX underneath the smaller RWD FX?
Why do you think that after a century, Lincoln has stated that they would no longer compete head to head w/ Cadillac as Cadillac fills out its RWD sedan lineup?
Instead, Lincoln will be targeting Audi and Lexus (well, the FWD Lexus models like the ES, RX and the upcoming RAV-4 based CUV w/ the Escape based CUV). Lincoln execs didn't mention Acura, but Acura is who they are competing against as well (kinda like how Acura execs never mention the Buick Verano as being competitor to the ILX when everyone knows it is).
Last edited by YEH; 12-25-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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fsttyms1 (12-26-2012)
12-25-2012, 07:14 PM
#3083
What differentiate Acura is superior handling even in FWD. Stock vs Stock. Acura TL FWD will not handle worse than Lexus GS or BMW 5 series.
Acura is never priced lower than competition. It just offer lesser content, older technology with no choice of customization (even less color choice) and no free maintaince with no such thing as RFT in lower priced models.
That's why Acura has the problem of its sedan lineup being a mishmash of sizes.
Some say the RLX will compete against the 7 Series; others say no, it will compete against the 5 Series.
Some say the TL compete against the 5 Series; others say it competes against the 3 Series.
But the TSX is supposed to compete w/ the 3 Series and the ILX is the one that's actually closest in size to the 3.
And for being such an Acura fanboy, you seem not to know the history and intent of the Acura brand.
From an AutoNews article.
"It was designed to be an intercept brand, to capture owners of Japanese products before they moved up to BMW and Mercedes," Elliott said.
Acura never reached the prestige or sales levels achieved by Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW, which have battled for luxury-brand leadership in recent years. Acura peaked at 209,610 units in 2005, but then went into a four-year slide before rebounding 26 percent last year to 133,606.
Lexus, which arrived in 1990, left Acura in the dust as Toyota poured far more resources into its luxury-brand project. But Acura was the trailblazer.
Acura never reached the prestige or sales levels achieved by Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW, which have battled for luxury-brand leadership in recent years. Acura peaked at 209,610 units in 2005, but then went into a four-year slide before rebounding 26 percent last year to 133,606.
Lexus, which arrived in 1990, left Acura in the dust as Toyota poured far more resources into its luxury-brand project. But Acura was the trailblazer.
Furthermore, when Honda decided to try to move Acura up to a "tier 1" level, the plan revolved around RWD + V8.
As luxury brands moved further upward, Acura eventually decided to emulate its competitors by developing a V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive platform. But on the eve of project sign-off in 2008, the Lehman Brothers collapse trigged the implosion of the global financial markets. Ito, the Honda president, killed the programs, as well as a rebirth of his own NSX.
In a new era of luxury thinking, and with a premium on fuel efficiency, Acura may be well placed with its "smart luxury" positioning, smaller engines and front-wheel drive.
In a new era of luxury thinking, and with a premium on fuel efficiency, Acura may be well placed with its "smart luxury" positioning, smaller engines and front-wheel drive.
That's exactly the same thing as what Ford is doing, since they, too, gave up on developing a RWD platform for Lincoln.
Jeff Conrad, vice president of American Honda Motor's Acura division, concedes that dealers' expectations are high. He says Acura is working to improve its vehicles, marketing, and retail network. But achieving those goals will take time, he warns.
"Every product we launch becomes more of a Tier One product." Conrad says. "But you don't just snap your fingers and do it overnight. It is a long-term effort."
Acura dealers say they like the revamped TL. But T.Y. Lai, COO of the western region for DCH Auto Group, says sales of the redesigned model have been disappointing.
"We don't consider it luxury yet," says Lai, whose company owns four U.S. Acura dealerships. "I don't think the buyer considers it luxury."
Acura must offer vehicles in higher-priced segments if it wants to be considered a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates.
Acura has formed a 25-person team of executives to define how it will achieve Tier 1 luxury status. John Mendel, executive vice president of automobile operations at American Honda, heads the team.
"Every product we launch becomes more of a Tier One product." Conrad says. "But you don't just snap your fingers and do it overnight. It is a long-term effort."
Acura dealers say they like the revamped TL. But T.Y. Lai, COO of the western region for DCH Auto Group, says sales of the redesigned model have been disappointing.
"We don't consider it luxury yet," says Lai, whose company owns four U.S. Acura dealerships. "I don't think the buyer considers it luxury."
Acura must offer vehicles in higher-priced segments if it wants to be considered a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates.
Acura has formed a 25-person team of executives to define how it will achieve Tier 1 luxury status. John Mendel, executive vice president of automobile operations at American Honda, heads the team.
The new RDX small cross/utility vehicle and upcoming next-generation MDX midsize CUV should help Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s Acura brand achieve Tier 1 luxury status, company officials say.
“Image (wise), we're not quite there yet,” Dan Bonawitz, vice president-auto operations for American Honda Motor Co. Inc., says at the RDX media preview here.
Acura has yet to attain the luxury-vehicle status of the BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus brands.
Honda is trying to emulate BMW by focusing on “more of a performance characteristic,” for Acura, “but (with) our own unique styling (and) unique application of technology,” Bonawitz says.
Acura's lack of a V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive configuration in its high-volume models is cited by industry watchers as a reason the brand isn't considered among the Tier 1 luxuries.
“We fully intend to be a Tier 1 luxury manufacturer in our own way, and we understand those knocks,” he tells Ward's.
“Image (wise), we're not quite there yet,” Dan Bonawitz, vice president-auto operations for American Honda Motor Co. Inc., says at the RDX media preview here.
Acura has yet to attain the luxury-vehicle status of the BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus brands.
Honda is trying to emulate BMW by focusing on “more of a performance characteristic,” for Acura, “but (with) our own unique styling (and) unique application of technology,” Bonawitz says.
Acura's lack of a V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive configuration in its high-volume models is cited by industry watchers as a reason the brand isn't considered among the Tier 1 luxuries.
“We fully intend to be a Tier 1 luxury manufacturer in our own way, and we understand those knocks,” he tells Ward's.
And Acura execs are just as deluded as Lincoln execs if they think the RDX helps Acura become a "tier 1" brand (but at least Lincoln execs have the sense to recognize that they will no longer compete w/ Cadillac).
Hyundia problem is different. It always offer more and newer technology for less price. But the end product falls short of expectations.
Such a cost roughly entails to $7-8k for the Genesis sedan and $9-10k for the Equus.
Thus, even while the next gen Genesis gets a bump in price (to around $38-39k), it will be at the $7 mark below the price of the GS and M (tho the top trim gas-only Genesis will be priced more than the GS since the GS no longer offers a V8 option).
That will still be priced above the TLX - Acura brand and all.
And look at how the M and G are faring in sales.
M sales are getting close to RL sales.
The GS is a brand new model and yet, the Genesis, in its final production year before the new model, sells as much as the GS in NA even tho it doesn't have AWD.
So yeah, Hyundai has to "discount" for the lack of a luxury badge and dealer network, but that formula isn't exactly working for M and GS sales.
Otoh, Acura discounts for being FWD, just like Audi, Lincoln and the FWD Lexus models, as well as the XTS.
Hyundai and Acura have taken a different tack and that's fine - since there is room in the luxury market for both approaches.
But we'll be seeing the Equus in comparisons w/ the S Class, 7 Series, etc. and not the RLX.
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fsttyms1 (12-26-2012)
12-25-2012, 07:38 PM
#3084
^
Hyundai could have done w/ Honda did (and what Toyota has partially done) and instead of investing in a RWD platform and V8, spent their investment $$ on launching a separate brand and dealer network.
It wouldn't take much to launch a FWD-based luxury lineup.
Bring over the European i40 for the midsize segment (a la the TSX) and do different sheetmetal and add on a fancier interior to the Azera platform for the fullsize (since Hyundai has a torque-vectoring AWD system, they can do that too).
Spiffy up the i30 and make that the compact (ILX) and "tart up" the Tucson and Santa Fe for luxury CUVs.
For me, I much prefer that they invested in RWD + V8 instead of a luxury brand.
And you can keep saying Hyundais are "mediocre" or "junk", but based on things like incentive spending, residual values, owner loyalty rates, etc. - such characterizations are not only, false but sophomoric.
Ito, himself, has stated that the Sonata is competition for the Accord and I think he know more about this than you.
And furthermore, Hyundai models have won their fair share of comparisons and Hyundai was the 1st Asian brand to win the prestigious EuroCarBody Golden Award for the i40 (which is voted on by industry insiders).
Now, does it mean that Hyundai is the "best" automaker or that it doesn't have its issues? Of course not.
Hyundai could have done w/ Honda did (and what Toyota has partially done) and instead of investing in a RWD platform and V8, spent their investment $$ on launching a separate brand and dealer network.
It wouldn't take much to launch a FWD-based luxury lineup.
Bring over the European i40 for the midsize segment (a la the TSX) and do different sheetmetal and add on a fancier interior to the Azera platform for the fullsize (since Hyundai has a torque-vectoring AWD system, they can do that too).
Spiffy up the i30 and make that the compact (ILX) and "tart up" the Tucson and Santa Fe for luxury CUVs.
For me, I much prefer that they invested in RWD + V8 instead of a luxury brand.
And you can keep saying Hyundais are "mediocre" or "junk", but based on things like incentive spending, residual values, owner loyalty rates, etc. - such characterizations are not only, false but sophomoric.
Ito, himself, has stated that the Sonata is competition for the Accord and I think he know more about this than you.
And furthermore, Hyundai models have won their fair share of comparisons and Hyundai was the 1st Asian brand to win the prestigious EuroCarBody Golden Award for the i40 (which is voted on by industry insiders).
Now, does it mean that Hyundai is the "best" automaker or that it doesn't have its issues? Of course not.
Last edited by YEH; 12-25-2012 at 07:47 PM.
12-25-2012, 07:49 PM
#3085
Senior Moderator
12-25-2012, 10:07 PM
#3086
Fahrvergnügen'd
I feel like there is some very biased nationalism going on in this Acura > Hyundai argument and frankly that is a load of horseshit. I don't know who is what but I find American jingoism intolerable. I have no patience for this stuff from other nationalities either. Lines on a map mean very little in business.
But it isn't surprising. The Japanese are going to continue to suffer erosion of market share. As the Koreans improve and the Americans stop shooting themselves in the foot, Toyota and Honda are going to suffer. That is a bitter pill for the irrational fan to swallow.
Mitsubishi is almost done. Mazda is struggling. Subaru has pulled the Impreza from the UK. The only car that they sold there with any clout.
Meanwhile, a certain someone seems to badmouth Hyundai for no reason other than it isn't Japanese.
The only bright spot in all this is that the irrational quickly becomes proven wrong.
Especially when I vote with my wallet and no Japanese car is on my list.
But it isn't surprising. The Japanese are going to continue to suffer erosion of market share. As the Koreans improve and the Americans stop shooting themselves in the foot, Toyota and Honda are going to suffer. That is a bitter pill for the irrational fan to swallow.
Mitsubishi is almost done. Mazda is struggling. Subaru has pulled the Impreza from the UK. The only car that they sold there with any clout.
Meanwhile, a certain someone seems to badmouth Hyundai for no reason other than it isn't Japanese.
The only bright spot in all this is that the irrational quickly becomes proven wrong.
Especially when I vote with my wallet and no Japanese car is on my list.
12-26-2012, 12:47 AM
#3087
I feel like there is some very biased nationalism going on in this Acura > Hyundai argument and frankly that is a load of horseshit. I don't know who is what but I find American jingoism intolerable. I have no patience for this stuff from other nationalities either. Lines on a map mean very little in business.
But it isn't surprising. The Japanese are going to continue to suffer erosion of market share. As the Koreans improve and the Americans stop shooting themselves in the foot, Toyota and Honda are going to suffer. That is a bitter pill for the irrational fan to swallow.
Mitsubishi is almost done. Mazda is struggling. Subaru has pulled the Impreza from the UK. The only car that they sold there with any clout.
Meanwhile, a certain someone seems to badmouth Hyundai for no reason other than it isn't Japanese.
The only bright spot in all this is that the irrational quickly becomes proven wrong.
Especially when I vote with my wallet and no Japanese car is on my list.
But it isn't surprising. The Japanese are going to continue to suffer erosion of market share. As the Koreans improve and the Americans stop shooting themselves in the foot, Toyota and Honda are going to suffer. That is a bitter pill for the irrational fan to swallow.
Mitsubishi is almost done. Mazda is struggling. Subaru has pulled the Impreza from the UK. The only car that they sold there with any clout.
Meanwhile, a certain someone seems to badmouth Hyundai for no reason other than it isn't Japanese.
The only bright spot in all this is that the irrational quickly becomes proven wrong.
Especially when I vote with my wallet and no Japanese car is on my list.
Last edited by MTEAZY; 12-26-2012 at 12:54 AM. Reason: oppression!!!1
12-26-2012, 05:31 AM
#3088
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100295858/UPD...eversing_trend
Sales over the first 11 months of the year were 2.68 million cars, up 12 percent on a year ago, after a 13 percent rate in January-October.
However, the AEB said cumulative growth figures will push closing figures for Russian sales for 2012 to 2.9 million, meeting the AEB's expectations for the year.
Sales over the first 11 months of the year were 2.68 million cars, up 12 percent on a year ago, after a 13 percent rate in January-October.
However, the AEB said cumulative growth figures will push closing figures for Russian sales for 2012 to 2.9 million, meeting the AEB's expectations for the year.
BMW in fact sells more of its 5 and 7 Series in Korea than Japan (Korea being one of its most profitable markets) - which is why they are building a driver's experience center w/ a track in Korea and not in Japan.
And the Japanese market doesn't support midsize/large sedan sales - which is why Nissan has stopped making the President and Mitsu, the Proudia - and why Nissan is letting Mitsu sell rebadged versions of the Cima (that's the M for those who don't know).
And the fact that Toyota sells luxury models in Japan exactly proves my point.
Even after Toyota switched the Toyota branded Celsior (aka the LS) to the Lexus nameplate, the flagship of the Toyota corporate fleet still remained a Toyota and not a Lexus, the Toyota Century.
Even after Toyota switched the Toyota branded Celsior (aka the LS) to the Lexus nameplate, the flagship of the Toyota corporate fleet still remained a Toyota and not a Lexus, the Toyota Century.
Uhm, no - the ATP of the Genesis is $40k - which is more than what the $30-39k TSX averages for.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/3499684610.html
http://www.huopopo.com/937/orltf/cb3erzg4z444971.jpg
http://hyundai18.wwwtunes.com/aiii/3...3ebc6ab29a.jpg
So hybrids and other alternative vehicles don't sell well unless there is aggressive pricing. So what? (And btw, can't merely go by ONE advertisement since markets vary from region to region).
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/22/c...da-civic-toyo/
Gee, I wonder what the discounts on the Civic hybrid were?
Gee, I wonder what the discounts on the Civic hybrid were?
Doesn't that "smart luxury" tag sound familiar?
The RLX fits right in the same category as the XTS and MKS.
since ur spending time with junk brankd like Hyundai. you simply cannot differentiate a quality product from top to bottom. u need root and branch analysis of product.
The Equus sells in a higher pricepoint than the RL and going forward the 2G Equus will continue to sell at a higher pricepoint than the RLX.
The 2G Genesis will be getting a significant price bump - to start around $38-39k for the base model.
The upcoming RK RWD compact sedan will start around $28-29k which is higher than the ILX.
Equus > RLX
Genesis > TLX (the TLX will be getting smaller so it will remain the same price, if not actually get a little cheaper)
RK > ILX
And yet Hyundai's luxury sedan lineup will be more expensive than Acura's sedan lineup and that's even w/ Hyundai not having to charge anything for the cost of a separate luxury brand and dealer network.
The Equus will continue to be included in comparison w/ the likes of the S Class, etc., the RLX, instead, will be compared to the XTS and MKS.
RLX SH-AWD will be two step ahead of Accord V6. and FWD RLX will be one step ahead of Accord V6. RLX FWD will surpass BMW 535/740.
when u think about RLX SH-AWD. think about BMW M5 or Audi S6. as the handling and breaking power will be at that level when equiped with summer performance tires. and refinement from hybrid system will be in LS600H level.
Seems to me the one which "cheapened" out was the automaker which didn't want to pony up to invest in RWD platforms.
Acura is bragging that the interior size of the RLX is equivalent to the 7 Series as well (not to mention the Accord having been classified as a full size based on interior room).
Getting 31mpg from 3950lbs and extra wide sedan is not joke with 6speed auto only.
And so does the ILX - so that makes it a 3 Series competitor as well (and will soon be the only one since it seems like Honda is killing the Euro Accord/TSX).
So you do admit the RLX is a 7 Series competitor.
Faster than the 740 maybe, but not faster than the 750i.
Faster than the 740 maybe, but not faster than the 750i.
And maybe the RLX will be a better handler than the 7 Series as well (likely will be a better handler than the LS460) - but nonetheless, it will be priced below the LS and even more so beneath the 7 Series, luxury badge and dealer network and all.
RLX will be only priced below than LS/7 when it offers less warranty/maintainance and less equipment (No RFT). You wont get 8speed in FWD RLX.
The Genesis is holding its value compared to the Infiniti M and did better than the previous M.
Who cares about lease rates?
The BMW 3 Series has really aggressive lease rates and even those don't match what Infiniti has been offering on the G.
And besides, low lease rates are only economically feasible if the model in question retains its resale value.
The BMW 3 Series has really aggressive lease rates and even those don't match what Infiniti has been offering on the G.
And besides, low lease rates are only economically feasible if the model in question retains its resale value.
No, not when R-Spec sales make up 35% of Genesis sales and as stated, the new Genesis will be getting a significant price bump, as the new Azera did.
The new Azera has a sticker that almost as high as the ES even tho it is supposed to compete w/ the Avalon and ALG awarded the Azera for top residual value in the full size car segment.
Do you ever get anything right?
The LS400 started w/ a absurdly low price of $35k.
By the early 1990s, the price went up to around $40k.
Until the refreshed LS460 launched, the LS was only starting at $67k.
And the rest of your post doesn't make any sense.
The LS400 started w/ a absurdly low price of $35k.
By the early 1990s, the price went up to around $40k.
Until the refreshed LS460 launched, the LS was only starting at $67k.
And the rest of your post doesn't make any sense.
The Genesis sedan has gone up in price every year and the 2G will get a major bump in price (see the Azera which saw a $6k rise in price).
Meanwhile Lexus has been cutting engine options, no longer offering a V8 for the GS, but still, that's better than nothing since Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS.
No. Until the recent major refresh, the LS 460 was only $10k more than the Equus.
Meanwhile the LS was more than $20k cheaper than the S Class.
So despite Hyundai not having to price in the cost of a luxury nameplate and separate dealer network, the LS was closer in price to the Equus than it was to the S Class and Equus is a new entry to the segment while the LS (as even you had noted) has had time to raise it price over the decades.
Again, size doesn't matter.
The Infiniti G is larger than the C Class or 3 Series and yet is cheaper.
The Infiniti G is larger than the C Class or 3 Series and yet is cheaper.
Heck, b/c Acura's lineup is FWD, it's entire lineup is larger and has to compete at a price one segment below or more.
But that is a totally moot point since the S Class is not larger, much less "much larger" than the LS.
Both the SWB LS and S Class are around 200" in length and the LWB version of the S Class is only an inch longer than the LWB LS.
Really, do you ever get anything correct?
Yeah, that's why Hyundai is rated 2nd by ALG for residual value, has the lowest incentive spending and the highest margins among mainstream brands.
But yes, Hyundai will remain a full-line, mainstream brand.
Both the SWB LS and S Class are around 200" in length and the LWB version of the S Class is only an inch longer than the LWB LS.
Really, do you ever get anything correct?
Yeah, that's why Hyundai is rated 2nd by ALG for residual value, has the lowest incentive spending and the highest margins among mainstream brands.
But yes, Hyundai will remain a full-line, mainstream brand.
No more so than the Infiniti M.
And the depreciation hit on luxury sedans like the S Class is much worse.
And the depreciation hit on luxury sedans like the S Class is much worse.
Yeah, that's why the new Azera, despite getting a $6k bump in price, got the ALG top residual value award for its segment.
Luxury doesn't have to be RWD+V8, but those which are, are seen as being on the higher-end than the FWD models.
A RWD/longitudinal engine layout allows for not only a smoother ride, but for a more powerful powerplant and better handling.
Why do you think MB and BMW outsell Audi significantly in the US despite charging higher prices than Audi (Audi can't charge the same prices)?
Why do you think Audi doesn't sell FWD A7s and A8s in the US?
Why do you think the midsize FWD Lexus ES is priced against the compact segment? Ditto for the TL and MKZ.
Why do you think that for their new nomenclature system, Infiniti slots the much larger 3 row JX underneath the smaller RWD FX?
Why do you think that after a century, Lincoln has stated that they would no longer compete head to head w/ Cadillac as Cadillac fills out its RWD sedan lineup?
Instead, Lincoln will be targeting Audi and Lexus (well, the FWD Lexus models like the ES, RX and the upcoming RAV-4 based CUV w/ the Escape based CUV). Lincoln execs didn't mention Acura, but Acura is who they are competing against as well (kinda like how Acura execs never mention the Buick Verano as being competitor to the ILX when everyone knows it is).
12-26-2012, 01:18 PM
#3090
Three Wheelin'
In terms of fit / finish and overall quality control Hyundai wins.
In terms of infotainment / navi / Honda wins.
Daily driver fun... give me the keys to the something that is conformable, great sounding stereo and has globs of torque. When / if Honda ever makes such a vehicle let me know... I might consider a test drive.
01-14-2013, 01:00 PM
#3091
Hyundai HCD-14 Genesis Concept. 
01-14-2013, 01:02 PM
#3092
Hyundai Press Release
HYUNDAI'S PREMIUM SEGMENT SUCCESS SETS THE STAGE FOR NEXT-GENERATION HCD-14 GENESIS REVEAL AT THE NORTH AMERICAN INTERNATIONAL AUTO SHOW
FLUIDIC PRECISION DESIGN
HCD-14 conveys a fluidic-precision, liquid-metal design language. Craftsmanship quality is conveyed via gemstone-like design surfaces. A bold front fascia surrounds brushed metal grille surfaces with a deep vertical grille opening. The corners of the rear hood incorporate heat extractor design accents that integrate seamlessly with exterior mirror design. From the side view silhouette, classic rear-drive sport sedan proportions are conveyed by an extended dash-to-axle length, short overhangs, large-diameter wheels, sharply-tapered greenhouse, and short rear deck. Large wheels were developed from a mix of premium lightweight alloys with carbon fiber surrounding the voided areas of the wheel design.
"We instilled HCD-14 with a premium-sport 4-door coupe road presence," said Christopher Chapman, chief designer, Hyundai Design North America. "Its sleek and lightweight silhouette does not punish the wind, but uses fluidic precision with dramatic surfacing that conveys natural restraint. Inside, a driver-centric cockpit prioritizes dramatic sculpture over infotainment button overload. Laminated and milled-wood detailing delivers a fresh, topographical map-like visual interest throughout the cabin-length center console."
REAR-HINGED REAR DOOR CABIN ACCESS
Opening the rear door reveals a rear-hinged configuration, with a single, oversized, brushed-aluminum hinge articulating diagonally from the rear door cutline. With both doors open, HCD-14 has an inviting and commodious cabin ambience. Inside the cabin, a double-cresting-wave center console design carries from the instrument panel through to the rear seats. This design-wave theme further influences the interior door handles and rear headrest hoods. Gauges and driver data are provided via an eclectic fusion of both analog and digital sources, with aviation-derived design cues. The driver-focused cockpit offers an asymmetrical center stack, with critical driving functions separated from passenger comfort functions. The center console even includes an iPad® tablet storage station, keeping it secure in spirited driving.
ACTIVE DRIVER SAFETY TECHNOLOGY
While HCD-14 exterior design makes a statement all its own, the driver's environment is where its technological innovation breaks new ground. Ergonomics engineers eliminated the traditional center stack, developing an intuitive driver interface system that allows the HCD-14 driver to better keep his eyes on the road. Freed from traditional design restrictions, designers created a controls layout devoid of intimidating clusters of buttons and knobs. Using state-of-the-art driver eye-tracking and 3-D hand-gesture recognition, HCD-14 is able to recognize driver commands free from the distractions associated with manual controls. Once a specific feature is selected via eye-tracking, thumb controls or gesture recognition can be used to select navigation, infotainment, audio, HVAC, and even smartphone connectivity functions. This intuitive interface provides the driver with complete control while keeping his eyes safely above the cowl plane, using a windshield heads-up display (HUD) for minimal driving distraction. This proprietary interface represents Hyundai's vision for future vehicle HMI and sets a new benchmark in active driver safety technology.
DRIVER-CENTRIC VEHICLE DYNAMICS
HCD-14's innovative eye-tracking and gesture-based controls reduce typical driving distractions, resulting in a more focused driver able to better appreciate the day-to-day satisfaction of exceptional vehicle dynamics. To this end, HCD-14 vehicle dynamics take the driver to a new level of involvement, focus, and control. An ultra-rigid chassis with strategic use of high-tensile steel provides a vault-like platform for the rear-drive powertrain configuration. Sophisticated five-link front and rear suspension reduces suspension-travel changes to camber and toe for consistent grip out of bends. A multi-mode power steering system retains road feel and feedback advantages while yielding the efficiency benefits of an electronic system. Low-profile performance tires yield outstanding turn-in response, mid-corner grip, and road feel. A sophisticated yaw-control system provides multiple driver-selected options for changing road conditions and driving preferences. Such an advanced complement of tarmac-gripping technologies requires an equally-impressive powertrain to be fully exploited, and the Hyundai-developed Tau® V8 engine is more than up to the task.
DIRECT-INJECTED TAU® V8 POWER
The HCD-14 powertrain features the award-winning Hyundai Tau® V8 engine, displacing 5.0-liters, with direct injection and Dual Continuously Variable Valve Timing (D-CVVT), for impressive power, low emissions and superb efficiency. HCD-14 uses optical recognition to identify the driver and initiate the starting sequence, while gear selection for the 8-speed automatic transmission is performed via paddle shifters. The HCD-14 exhaust is ceramic-lined and was tuned for minimal backpressure, maximum high-rpm horsepower, and a deep baritone note, with cooling fins integrated into ultra-wide exhaust tips.
- HCD-14 Genesis Provides a Glimpse into Future Hyundai Premium Vehicle Design
- Eye-tracking Technology and Interactive 3-D Gesture Recognition
- Reveal Future Technologies of Hyundai's Premium Lines
FLUIDIC PRECISION DESIGN
HCD-14 conveys a fluidic-precision, liquid-metal design language. Craftsmanship quality is conveyed via gemstone-like design surfaces. A bold front fascia surrounds brushed metal grille surfaces with a deep vertical grille opening. The corners of the rear hood incorporate heat extractor design accents that integrate seamlessly with exterior mirror design. From the side view silhouette, classic rear-drive sport sedan proportions are conveyed by an extended dash-to-axle length, short overhangs, large-diameter wheels, sharply-tapered greenhouse, and short rear deck. Large wheels were developed from a mix of premium lightweight alloys with carbon fiber surrounding the voided areas of the wheel design.
"We instilled HCD-14 with a premium-sport 4-door coupe road presence," said Christopher Chapman, chief designer, Hyundai Design North America. "Its sleek and lightweight silhouette does not punish the wind, but uses fluidic precision with dramatic surfacing that conveys natural restraint. Inside, a driver-centric cockpit prioritizes dramatic sculpture over infotainment button overload. Laminated and milled-wood detailing delivers a fresh, topographical map-like visual interest throughout the cabin-length center console."
REAR-HINGED REAR DOOR CABIN ACCESS
Opening the rear door reveals a rear-hinged configuration, with a single, oversized, brushed-aluminum hinge articulating diagonally from the rear door cutline. With both doors open, HCD-14 has an inviting and commodious cabin ambience. Inside the cabin, a double-cresting-wave center console design carries from the instrument panel through to the rear seats. This design-wave theme further influences the interior door handles and rear headrest hoods. Gauges and driver data are provided via an eclectic fusion of both analog and digital sources, with aviation-derived design cues. The driver-focused cockpit offers an asymmetrical center stack, with critical driving functions separated from passenger comfort functions. The center console even includes an iPad® tablet storage station, keeping it secure in spirited driving.
ACTIVE DRIVER SAFETY TECHNOLOGY
While HCD-14 exterior design makes a statement all its own, the driver's environment is where its technological innovation breaks new ground. Ergonomics engineers eliminated the traditional center stack, developing an intuitive driver interface system that allows the HCD-14 driver to better keep his eyes on the road. Freed from traditional design restrictions, designers created a controls layout devoid of intimidating clusters of buttons and knobs. Using state-of-the-art driver eye-tracking and 3-D hand-gesture recognition, HCD-14 is able to recognize driver commands free from the distractions associated with manual controls. Once a specific feature is selected via eye-tracking, thumb controls or gesture recognition can be used to select navigation, infotainment, audio, HVAC, and even smartphone connectivity functions. This intuitive interface provides the driver with complete control while keeping his eyes safely above the cowl plane, using a windshield heads-up display (HUD) for minimal driving distraction. This proprietary interface represents Hyundai's vision for future vehicle HMI and sets a new benchmark in active driver safety technology.
DRIVER-CENTRIC VEHICLE DYNAMICS
HCD-14's innovative eye-tracking and gesture-based controls reduce typical driving distractions, resulting in a more focused driver able to better appreciate the day-to-day satisfaction of exceptional vehicle dynamics. To this end, HCD-14 vehicle dynamics take the driver to a new level of involvement, focus, and control. An ultra-rigid chassis with strategic use of high-tensile steel provides a vault-like platform for the rear-drive powertrain configuration. Sophisticated five-link front and rear suspension reduces suspension-travel changes to camber and toe for consistent grip out of bends. A multi-mode power steering system retains road feel and feedback advantages while yielding the efficiency benefits of an electronic system. Low-profile performance tires yield outstanding turn-in response, mid-corner grip, and road feel. A sophisticated yaw-control system provides multiple driver-selected options for changing road conditions and driving preferences. Such an advanced complement of tarmac-gripping technologies requires an equally-impressive powertrain to be fully exploited, and the Hyundai-developed Tau® V8 engine is more than up to the task.
DIRECT-INJECTED TAU® V8 POWER
The HCD-14 powertrain features the award-winning Hyundai Tau® V8 engine, displacing 5.0-liters, with direct injection and Dual Continuously Variable Valve Timing (D-CVVT), for impressive power, low emissions and superb efficiency. HCD-14 uses optical recognition to identify the driver and initiate the starting sequence, while gear selection for the 8-speed automatic transmission is performed via paddle shifters. The HCD-14 exhaust is ceramic-lined and was tuned for minimal backpressure, maximum high-rpm horsepower, and a deep baritone note, with cooling fins integrated into ultra-wide exhaust tips.
01-14-2013, 01:04 PM
#3093
Moderator
Not a fan of the exterior front of the car (looks too much like a Mack truck), but the overall design is pretty impressive; especially that interior.
01-14-2013, 01:10 PM
#3094
First thought after seeing these 2 pics
was modern version of Black Beauty
was modern version of Black Beauty
01-14-2013, 01:32 PM
#3095
The sizzle in the Steak
ummm...no thanks
01-14-2013, 03:53 PM
#3096
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
01-14-2013, 04:10 PM
#3097
Not the best color choice, but I like it. The front end/grille reminds me of Audi and Mitsubishi though
01-14-2013, 04:21 PM
#3098
The sizzle in the Steak
This concept is proof why Hyundai needed to stop designing their own vehicles.
Good thing they got Kia's guy (ex Audi) to design Hyundai now too.
Good thing they got Kia's guy (ex Audi) to design Hyundai now too.
01-14-2013, 04:27 PM
#3099
I'd definitely take this over the RLX 
01-14-2013, 05:10 PM
#3101
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ Now a long way off after showing this 
tastic design.
Wait for the Peter Schreyer designed Genesis.
tastic design.Wait for the Peter Schreyer designed Genesis.
01-15-2013, 08:34 PM
#3103
Some dude
Pass.
01-25-2013, 09:53 AM
#3106
Back From The dead
Hi Gang, I've been spending a lot of time in the Hyundai camp lately. Got invited by John K to come to Detroit for the unveiling of the HCD, and I did with the wife. The HCD is not the new Genesis. They will take design cues from it in the 14 Genny, but also hinted about a totally new model coming in a couple of years to compete in the secoupe (or coudan) market.
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ttribe (01-25-2013)
01-25-2013, 10:52 AM
#3108
Back From The dead
02-26-2013, 06:46 PM
#3111
Three Wheelin'
LED Projectors... just like on the KDM versions - except with the FMC the NA market will finally get them. I'll reserve all final judgement until all camo is off....
02-27-2013, 12:17 PM
#3113
Safety Car
So, they'll have AWD version of Genesis?
I was seriously considering Genesis R-Spec the other day.. but the new one is about to come out in KDM.. will it debut similar time line in US as well? Friend of mine works at Hyundai said the new one will look pretty good
I was seriously considering Genesis R-Spec the other day.. but the new one is about to come out in KDM.. will it debut similar time line in US as well? Friend of mine works at Hyundai said the new one will look pretty good
02-27-2013, 01:27 PM
#3117
Safety Car
02-27-2013, 01:33 PM
#3118
Safety Car
Given how successful Genesis was, I'd expect the price to bump a lot as well for the next generation.
It only makes sense for Azera as well. Current Azera price fits way too close to Genesis.
It only makes sense for Azera as well. Current Azera price fits way too close to Genesis.
02-28-2013, 12:05 PM
#3119
You'll Never Walk Alone
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With that said, even though I'm not a big fan of American cars, I have always rated the Chrysler 300C when it comes to affordable V8 RWD luxury sedans. Before considering any incentives, a well equipped 300C with the Hemi is also below $40k. Obviously it's a Chrysler and its styling can be controversial, but , it's a Mercedes Benz E Class underneath the skin. It's been praised for its handling many times even though it's a 4000lb+ car. Its performance numbers are also within a few tenths of the Genesis R-spec.
02-28-2013, 12:22 PM
#3120
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (2)
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I quite like the side and rear. It's the front end that looks out of place IMO. Can't see very clearly yet, but the new car has a better front end.
Yea that's a sweet deal...$40k for a luxury V8 RWD sedan. That's some huge discount right there!
With that said, even though I'm not a big fan of American cars, I have always rated the Chrysler 300C when it comes to affordable V8 RWD luxury sedans. Before considering any incentives, a well equipped 300C with the Hemi is also below $40k. Obviously it's a Chrysler and its styling can be controversial, but , it's a Mercedes Benz E Class underneath the skin. It's been praised for its handling many times even though it's a 4000lb+ car. Its performance numbers are also within a few tenths of the Genesis R-spec.
Yea that's a sweet deal...$40k for a luxury V8 RWD sedan. That's some huge discount right there!
With that said, even though I'm not a big fan of American cars, I have always rated the Chrysler 300C when it comes to affordable V8 RWD luxury sedans. Before considering any incentives, a well equipped 300C with the Hemi is also below $40k. Obviously it's a Chrysler and its styling can be controversial, but , it's a Mercedes Benz E Class underneath the skin. It's been praised for its handling many times even though it's a 4000lb+ car. Its performance numbers are also within a few tenths of the Genesis R-spec.