fsttyms1

Id wager they will and do have a plan. I think they will see where and how the market follows and does and be smart about it. They are a large company that is moving up. They have done their homework to have gotten to this point.

PortlandRL

Are you off your Ridalin or something? Just when I think your stupidity can't reach new lows, you give me more dreck. What do the French have to do with this? NOTHING. And do you even know just how big of a company Hyundai is? I'm thinking you don't because you don't seem to know jack about anything else. Hyundai is the largest ship builder in the world, fifth largest car company and it practically runs South Korea. They make everything from computer monitors to cars to marketing and maintaining marine logistics, security services, department stores, engineering and construction, and even a professional Korean baseball team. I'm sure that after all that diversification, the Equus is going to be the one thing that pushes them over the edge to bankruptcy.

Now I'm back to ignoring you and your der-der-der comments.

fsttyms1

Dont forget the majority of the robotics that assemble most every automobile

PortlandRL

Including the RL which, once it gets the 6-speed automatic, will suddenly start selling thousands of units a month.

fsttyms1

yes, thats all it needs to start selling.

SSFTSX

Nope. If today Acura decide to built 2 door 2 seater with SH-AWD and height/lenght of Audi R8. I bet on its G forces will be well over north of 1.00. It will as good or better than R8 at 70% of price. Acura has the expensive material/aerodynamic/AWD technolgy. After all It was Honda that Lunch Euro Accord in 2002 with 0.26 drag coefficient for such tall car. No other company had that skill.

I mean losses in ther big products like Genessi/V8 etc. otherwise they would be lunching Premium brand by now if they think there Product has margin to support dealership network.

It depends on segment competing. Acura target X6. it did pretty well considering X6 lacks Integrated dynamic option.

Honda does not need to buy bankrupt brands if there is no technology to gain. They had Britsh Rover experiance decade ago.

SSFTSX

If you combine even the Kitchen appliances that Hyundai makes. It wont make it pass $100B. Honda is very focussed firm. It doenot need to waste resources on ship building. (Low Value work as Chinese are the largest Shipbuilder since this year).
Honda concentrates on high value work that is more integrated into its core engine/auto/robotics/materials business. Honda survives and thrives in high currency nation. Hyundai survives with depreciated currency. Honda has move most of manufacturing Outside Japan. They have done there home work decades ago. Honda does need to ship Engines made in China to US like Hyundai is going to do with new Elantra. Honda represents quality and longetivity.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

SSFTSX when are you going to provide the documented proof that I requested that proves additional gear ratios improve NVH?

tmnhs81

Can you just ban his ass and be done with it??

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

i hope you realize that this car is just a Lexus LS with a bunch of Hyundai badges on it. its even got the LS exhaust tips.

PortlandRL

PortlandRL

You are such an idiot. Their shipbuilding business alone is worth $26 billion and the automotive division reported revenues of $27 billion in 2009. And show me facts where Hyundai is importing Chinese engines for the new Elantra. Also show me facts where this mysterious Chinese company surpassed Hyundai in shipbuilding as well.

I'm willing to bet those facts will come about the same time you get those NVH figures for the Accord.

NJ SHAWD

Hyundai = G.E. of Korea

krio

Thanks for the info.

SSFTSX

And Honda is over $100b at current exchange rate. and it all includes high tech products not some ship building. And what Shipbuilding has to do with high tech business?. there is absoultely nothing in common. Look at Japan contribution to Boeing 787 and China/SK combine.
Auto and Aerospace are much closely related interms of Engine/Material/aerodynamic technology.
I didnot say Chinese compnay. Hyundai is bulding plant in China to supply engines to US market Elantra. Honda does not need to that as it has already invested in developed world enough in past decades. Honda is decades ahead than Hyundai interms of Industrial infrastructure and R&D. It is easy to copy and mix parts from outside like ZF transmission but very difficult to execute the end product.
Honda Accord NVH is pretty good with 5speed Auto. See the C&D comparision test with Sonata. and Honda Accord is already 3 years old car with R&D 6 years old atleast.

biker

OK, so what if Honda built such a car and every car rag voted it the best car in the world but it sold so poorly it made no money for Honda - what would you call that?

What do you think Honda would rather have - the best mid sized luxury sedan title (some future version of the RL perhaps) that sells maybe 200/ mo or some ho hum nobody notices sedan that sells 1500-2000/mo and actually makes them money?

Best engineering, best test results, best in class mean nothing unless it can be turned into sales and a profit. OTOH, one could put out a pedestrian product that matches just enough of the competition and sells enough to make money. I think the latter is the point of the Equus.

dom

For the love of God, can you all just start ignoring SSFTSX.

And no, he won't be banned unless he deserves it so stop asking. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't ban someone for having a different opinion. Even if that opinion is pretty much out to left field and disagreed with by 99.999% of members.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Stop feeding the troll. He lives off the responses and just continues to fan the flames with his idiotic perspectives.

charliemike

I think he's to be honest.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Well, yeah, there is the possibility that he's screwy and actually believes the bullshit that flows from the tips of his fingers. Either way, let's just ignore him. There was a time I debated with reason with this guy, but I have given up.

SSFTSX

It does not matter how many you sell but how you make it. Acura R8 competitor does not need to be V8/V10. Next generation V6/Hybrid combo stated for TL/RL would do fine. combined it with light weight material and sleeker profile. Performance/handling should be better and identical to R8. Honda has world best 6MT.
TL-SH-AWD only uses Solid discs in rear with identical performance of Audi S4 with Ventilated discs. this is called real engineering.
this is not mutally exclusive. higher trim version can be best and lower trim version volume seller. just like A6 & S6.
Honda achieves all with technology that is mostly standard across SUV/Sedans. it is application of technology to right design that is shortcoming. Like lack of 6AT/6MT/SH-AWD in TSX/RL/TL untill this point.

biker

OK, I'll bite - what did you think VW did wrong with the Phateon (VW's version of the Equus)?

SSFTSX

VW Phateon was fine product. Car was just too expensive for VW brand. (lack of US manufacturing to make it $15 to $20k cheaper).
VW has hard time selling VW toureq despite engine/transmission advantage compared to Honda Pilot/MDX etc.
Equis is already closer to $60k/ $67k price. Since Equis mostly built to order. some customers just cant wait for arrival of car.
They can just pick what ever 740/L460 is available at dealership at discounted prices of $65 to $70k. unless some one needs some very special built to order option. these cars are now pretty loaded for 90% of consumers. and those who can wait. they probably has alot of cars and not looking at value.

dom

The next post in this thread better have something to do with the Equus.

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

hey i was just pointing out that you say youd take an LS over the Equus but theyre pretty much exactly the same. yet you say the Equus is boring and ugly.


this post has to do with the Equus right?

PortlandRL

Volkswagen's fault with the Phaeton is that they failed to make any sort of transition into selling the car. Prior to the arrival of the Phaeton, I believe the average VW left the showroom at around $22,000. With virtually no investment into dealership experience, they began marketing the Phaeton, which could sell for over $120,000 with the W12 engine and all option boxes checked. Why, many people wondered, should I spend $120,000 on a VW when I can spend the same amount on an Audi A8L and get a luxury badge along with a superior dealer experience?

Hyundai has taken a much different path. They started in 2005 by replacing the XG350 with the Azera, the first Hyundai to touch $35,000 on the window sticker. After that, the Veracruz arrived as the first Hyundai to break $40,000 with a full load. Then came the Genesis which proved Hyundai could make a V8, rear-wheel drive luxury sedan and market it within a reasonable price range. I believe the Genesis was as much of a halo model as it was a car with which Hyundai could test the waters. If people bought the Genesis, they would probably be okay to introduce the next stage and sure enough, the Genesis has been selling like mad. Hyundai even put a cap on American distribution to avoid over-saturating the market and adversely effecting resale values. Now that the public has been warmed to the idea of more expensive and luxurious models from Hyundai and they have adjusted the dealership experience accordingly, the Equus should be welcomed with open arms. Despite caps for 1,500 units in America annually, I don't think they'll have trouble moving every single one they make.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

This. And when VW realized they were having trouble moving sub-40K Passat W8s that should've been a clue.

Almost bought one of those by the way, but it guzzled gas and was slower than the TL as well as a few grand more. Factor in the "VW ownership" possibility and I skipped on it, though maybe our experiences with Audis made me less than concerned about that.

biker

One of the articles mentioned a sales goal of 2000-3000 per year - the same as VW aimed for with the Phaeton. At $50K that might be possible - if they push nothing but the top of the range $65K+ model then it'll be a lot tougher.

krio

Equis?
Toureg?
Phateon?

SSFTSX you are really the best.

TSX69

Will Equus be Lexus or Phaeton?

SAN FRANCISCO -- Hyundai's hulking Equus sedan, which thrusts the brand into $60,000 prestige-class territory this fall, is being measured against 2 previous leaps of faith in the luxury-car wars -- one a big winner and the other a loser.

So how does the lavishly equipped Equus stack up against those other gambles by volume brands -- Toyota's Lexus LS 400 in 1989 and Volkswagen's Phaeton experiment in 2003?

Favorably, by most accounts. Hyundai has modest volume goals for its big luxury sedan and a plan for getting around the brand's mass-market dealerships.

Also, there's less of a price gap between the Equus and Hyundai's Genesis (which is selling well) than there was between the Phaeton and the VW Passat or between the LS 400 and Toyota's top-of-the-line Cressida sedan back in 1989.

Hyundai's sedan is designed to go head to head against the Lexus, Mercedes and BMW flagship autobahn barges. Its 4.6-liter engine has the appropriate V-8 snarl, the ride is sumptuous, the steering in "sport" mode is precise, the interior controls have the proper soft-touch tactile response, and occupants are swaddled in a herd's worth of hides.

What it boils down to is whether a mass-market Korean brand and its dealers -- just a decade removed from selling low-quality econoboxes and on the brink of abandoning the U.S. market -- really merit consideration as a $60,000 purchase.

"The brand works against them, of course," said Jack Fitzgerald, a multiline dealer in Rockville, Md., who saw the Phaeton flop at his VW store and now will sell the Equus at his Hyundai outlet. "It hasn't become fashionable to drive a Hyundai yet, but it's getting there."

Still, some Hyundai insiders admit to nervousness, fearing it may be too much, too soon. Hyundai actively pursued the notion of opening a separate luxury channel for the car. Some within the U.S. sales arm fought Korea tooth-and-nail to keep the Equus out. Then again, there was a camp within Toyota that didn't want Lexus, either.

Another Phaeton?
The Equus reprises the original Lexus promise of luxury and quality equal to the luxury leaders but at a much lower price. While the 2011 Lexus LS 460 starts at $66,255, with shipping, the Equus is planned to come in comfortably under $60,000. That's Mercedes E550 turf, the same promise Lexus made when it entered the market.

"Lexus, Infiniti and Acura have already shown consumers' willingness to change brands, because they all defected from the Europeans," said Mike O'Brien, Hyundai vice president of product and corporate planning.

O'Brien, a former Toyota executive who began his career at Hyundai, likens the Equus debut to the LS 400 launch.

But others equate the Equus with the failed Phaeton, which was yanked from the U.S. market in 2005 after being on sale for barely 2 years. They say the Teutonic flagship was the height of arrogance from a brand that had no business playing in the rare air of luxury, no matter how good the final product.

Hyundai's U.S. market share this year is 4.7 percent and rising. The brand has 4.2 million vehicles in operation in the United States. By comparison, Toyota's market share when it launched Lexus was 6.4 percent with 8.9 million vehicles in operation. Volkswagen declined to give historical units-in-operation figures but had just 1.5 percent of new-vehicle share in 2004.

Also, the difference in stickers between the Equus and the next-priciest vehicle in the Hyundai lineup isn't as large as when VW launched the Phaeton.

The Genesis sedan starts at $33,800 but climbs to $43,800 with a V-8 engine and options. The Genesis also is a good platform for the Equus. It's keeping pace with the BMW 5 series and easily outsells the Infiniti M and Lexus GS.

Starting at around $60,000, the Equus undercuts today's Lexus LS 460 by at least $6,000. That's before Lexus starts charging for options that are standard on the Equus.

By contrast, the Phaeton's price started at about $70,000 for the V-8 model and grew to more than $100,000 for the 12-cylinder with all-wheel drive. That was a big jump from the $30,000 Passats at the top of the existing VW lineup and more expensive than much of its competition.

And while VW expected 7,500 Phaeton sales a year (it peaked at 1,939 in 2004), Hyundai's U.S. goal is a more modest 2,000 to 3,000.

Dealer Fitzgerald said the Phaeton never had a chance.

"VW made no serious effort to sell the Phaeton," he said. "VW had a lot of internal turmoil going on at the time, a dispute about whether Phaeton should be brought at all. Then they didn't do anything with it once it got here."

Hyundai's brand image is also closer to Toyota circa 1989 than VW's in 2004. Toyota was a mass-market brand on the rise, with luxury-class aspirations. But when it launched the Phaeton, VW didn't try to change its brand message from what the name Volkswagen actually means: "The People's Car."

Fitzgerald sees a distinct difference between the Equus and Phaeton launches.

"I don't think it's a bridge too far for Hyundai," he said. "Hyundai's track record is different from that. They have a plan and they stick with it."

The dealer equation
But while Lexus featured a Taj Majal dealership experience, Equus buyers can do without the dealership altogether. Whether it's for a test drive or oil change, a valet takes care of delivery and retrieval of the Equus from the owner's home or office, with an iPad link serving as the means of communication with the dealership. If it's a service call, the valet leaves a loaner Genesis for the Equus owner.

Among its 790 Hyundai dealers, 250 were allowed to sell the Equus. Each will have a "champion," a staffer devoted to the care and feeding of the handful of Equus owners in his market area. Dealers will have a separate area of the showroom dedicated to the Equus, just in case a customer wanders in.

Still, few Hyundai showrooms can match the amenities or treatment of a Lexus or Mercedes-Benz store. But O'Brien counters: "Would you rather have value for money or a coddling experience?"

Hyundai has performed well in the J.D. Power Initial Quality Study and is in the middle of the pack in Power's 3-year durability-index survey. But the brand finished well below average in the 2009 J.D. Power Sales Satisfaction Index, scoring far below even the lowest-scoring luxury brand.

Still, Jeff Schuster, executive director of automotive intelligence at J.D. Power, thinks the Equus will "make some noise" in the luxury segment.

"The whole idea of 'We'll bring it to your house' is a bit more of a commitment," Schuster said.

But is it luxury?

Does the absence of a roundel or a 3-pointed star on the hood disqualify the Equus from being a proper luxury car?

Milton Pedraza, CEO of The Luxury Institute in New York, recommended Hyundai create a new brand for the car when the automaker hired him as a consultant.

"Consumer minds put things in buckets," Pedraza said. "It's a perception issue, not the reality, but perception is reality.

"Hyundai can elevate itself to a premium brand, because quality and nice design are very important to consumers. But the heritage and cachet of a luxury brand takes years and years. Even Lexus is still trying."

The full Hyundai name appears nowhere on the Equus. A winged-icon logo -- unique for the Equus -- is placed on the hood and steering wheel, and only an "Equus" badge appears on the right side of the trunk lid. The only giveaway is a demure Hyundai "H" in the center of the trunk lid.

Jim Hall of the consultancy 2953 Analytics in suburban Detroit thinks a 2nd channel for Hyundai is on the way, but the recession and lack of supporting product preclude that from happening now.

"Hyundai sees this car as a way to test the waters for what is the maximum brand extension," Hall said. If people don't like the car as a Hyundai, he said, "then they need an alternative brand. But you don't need to set up a new dealer network to try the car."

Right way, wrong way
Toyota unveiled the Lexus LS 400 in 1989, and VW rolled out the Phaeton in 2003. Here's why Toyota succeeded and VW failed.
Lexus LS 400
• Promised luxury/quality equal to segment leaders, at lower cost
• Built a brand around the car
• Started with big customer base
• Superb dealership experience
VW Phaeton
• Too big a price gap from Passat to Phaeton
• Used VW badge and "People's Car" brand message
• Overambitious sales goal

Shift_Acura

IMO its too much too soon. This car should have been launched when Hyundai launched their Luxury Brand. At the end of the day its still a Hyundai, and even though thats not a bad thing anymore, its still nothing to be proud of.

SSFTSX

THis article is pretty inaccurate in history.
When LS400 started. Toyota was already used to selling 6 cylinder LandCruiser in $25k range without ammenties of Lexus. so $35k was not a big of a jump for V8/Leather sedan. infact LS400 was bargain of century when comparable German brand were at $80k to $90k with outdated interiors and lexus kind dealership.
Now German luxury brands have lowered the prices, increase the performance/fuel economy and give 4 year maintianance.
it is far difficult to penetrate $60k to $70k market based on value.
with limited sale goal of 2 to 3k pretty similar to VW Phaeton. Car will soon go into oblivion. No dealer will give decent trade in value for such limited vehicle in used car market.
with Acura/Lexus you can trade in after 3 or 4 years in decent shape.

YEH

Not that it is worth anyone's time to try to educate the looney on this board, but some corrections are in order so that others aren't misled (not that it is likely considering the source of the misleading commentary).

I don't know what "losses" SS"I am blowing things out of my arse" is talking about, but Hyundai is making $$ off the sales of the Genesis in the US and likely won't take a loss in the sales of the Equus either (as long as sales aren't drastically lower than projections).

The reason why Hyundai didn't launch a premium brand/dealer network when they launched the Genesis sedan over 2 yrs ago is exactly b/c they didn't want to lose $$/have to heavily subsidize the new dealer network (just like what Lexus did when they launched the LS400).

Right now, there is bigger fish to fry (expanding further in the growing Chinese, Russian, Indian, Brazilian markets) than the contracting US auto market.

Furthermore, Hyundai does have plans to launch a premium brand/dealer network down the road, but that is only when they have a big enough model lineup to fully support a new brand/dealer network (aside from the a new Genesis sedan and upmarket coupe, will have a 3 Series fighter and at least 1 CUV, along w/ the Equus).

And really, it is beyond ridiculous to think that Hyundai has the $$ to build more plants in China, etc., develop and build in-house a V8 engine, a 6spd and 8 spd AT, as well as hybrid and electric vehicles (most other auto companies can't go it alone and end up doing joint ventures or purchasing components from a supplier), and yet, doesn't have the resources to launch another brand in the US.

Uhh, factoring in inflation, the cost of the LS400 today would be about $61K - right about where the price of the Equus is going to be.

Gee, I guess the decent resale value for the RL, despite its limited sales volume, must be due to the special "magic dust" that only Honda can attain.

charliemike

If I never have to set foot inside a Hyundai dealership for ANYTHING, why wouldn't I consider one?

I'm the kind of guy that likes to take silent pleasure in knowing I made the right choice, even when no one else can understand why I did something (like choosing a Hyundai over a Lexus, for example).

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You are full of BS, aren't you?

fsttyms1

My dad recently had a small issue with his Genesis. His brake switch went out. He was about 100 miles form home. He called road side assistance, they had the car towed (no brake lights) They had a Genesis loaner waiting for him at the nearest Hyundai dealer (about 15 miles down the road). Mind you this was saturday about 4:30 in the after noon. I wouldnt question Hyundai and their pursuit to gain market share in that segment. The dealer even offered to have one of its drivers bring the vehicle back to him. I know our local Acura, BMW, Lexus dealers wouldnt do that.

phile

I think Hyundai's iPad and the whole not having to step into a Hyundai dealership to get their Equus serviced is pure genius. they pretty much stepped around setting up their own Lexus brand (for now) but are able to provide the customer with the same exceptional level of service that Lexus did to win over customers.

Unfortunately I don't think the quality is quite Lexus. The Genesis is no doubt nice but i still saw some cost cutting - it's got the Acura bug where they think fake wood can really pass off as luxury.

But exterior and interior designs of the Equus leaves a lot to be desired. Lexus started off as being cookie cutter too - but that was a different era, cars weren't really stylish, most were generic looking, some were downright ugly. Hyundai has to work harder now to do what Lexus did simply because of the heightened competition.

yohan81718

equus looks nice
not the greatest design of the decade or anything to beat other premium brands
but it definitely sets hyundai one step higher now

go hyundai.

Shift_Acura

Shift_Acura

Most people in Canada will probably never see one...

"197 Canadian dealers had the option to carry the car, but only 27 - confined to major urban areas in B.C., Alberta, Ontario and Quebec - ponied up the investment."

http://autos.ca.msn.com/reviews/2011...entid=25518161