pttl

Correct...except that the ZDX is using the same Acura drive platforms. But where does the ZDX fit? SUV? CUV?

A coupe is at least something people recognize. If a new coupe is based on the TL design language, I don't think it will be successful.

dom

I share that opinion. But relating specifically to Acura (as I'm sure you were)

Having said that, they've made it crystal clear there will be no RWD platform.

Of course companies have also been making FWD and AWD for decades but I guess its somehow ok to emulate those. Or maybe Honda has 6 wheel design coming out where the middle wheels do the moving.

So at this point I'm just hoping for some good looking designs where SH-AWD is used, with good power and of course reasonable weight.

Belzebutt

I would love to see SH-AWD used in a smaller car, like the TSX. The TL is just too big for my taste.

dom

Yup, but here's the issue. The V6 TSX weighs just about as much as a base TL. Which means an SH-AWD equipped TSX will weight just about as much as a SH-AWD TL. So, while is smaller, its just as heavy. And in Canada anyway, just as expensive. Doesn't make much sense. They have to somehow find a way to separate the two much more.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The fuck is goin on in here??

Belzebutt

Time to update your avatar.

fsttyms1

X2

winstrolvtec

I never said anything about faster, in terms of srictly handling the SH was the clear winner but never actually beat the new S4 around the track due to the S4 being faster so it may have lapped a bit better because it made up the time on the straights as both you and I know how to distinquish this from the results. Perhaps I am generalizing a bit but there really is no data as in depth as there is for the TL and it's competition in how the cars lap and handle so lets jus say they are among the best despite not having to go RWD which is more the "point".

The paltform hasn't made for a compromised vehicle in terms of space, the design has, although it is not compromised at all when you look at the wheelbase, it's actually quite the opposite. The Accord is full sized, the RL has as much pasenger volume as the last gen 5 series and more than the A6, GS, and E class. It's a little smaller in the trunk except for the GS but as a whole it's as spacious as anything else in the group on it's platform, handles amongst the best, and undercuts them in price.

The exterior to interior ratio is off on the TL as the exterior design is large and the bumpers could have been shortened maybe around a foot on the car but you are not getting interior volume out of bumpers. Acura went bigger outside then they probably should have but they are trying to gain perception that the car is headed in another direction moving up market and getting bigger, I know many don't like that but it doesn't mean they necessarily engineered the wrong product. They also decided that the RL limits what they can do with the sapce of the TL, as they want to maintain added distinction until they can transition everything.

The 3G was a very tight exterior around it's frame and platform to allow it to be viewed amongst compacts and smaller mids but it was always a large mid in disquise. The 4G is a bit inflated for the opposite perception reasons but the car should probably normally fall somewhere in between the two. This is not a functional problem it is an aesthetic one and that is very subjective.

I agree when looked at in a luxury performance standpoint, it is inferior but that is not a huge problem for someone looking for a more practical, cheaper alternative. That doesn't stop the TL FWD, TSX and ES from selling and well, nor does Audi drop the A4 and A6 frontrak models. SH is not actually front drive so that is why they have that version so you can have AWD with a FWD and RWD like demeanor.

No but basic Quattro is, you have to admit. It's been stripped down to center Torsen and electronic abs open differntials. That is not bad for winter driving, never said it was, its great, but SH is as good there and has more performance upside and it is available in regular models, no need to spend crazy dollars on an S trim or only on an SUV in BMW's case. Acura doesn't resvere the tech for their high end only and while many don't want FWD Acuras others don't want RWD or sub par AWD models, you can't look at it from one perspective only.

This is the problem with these threads. Other brands are not held to the same double standards, they seem to get the pass by saying "oh they don't design it for that" and that's ok but huge discussions arise that probably shouldn't if you just apply the same mentality and logic to Honda/Acura vehicles. Holding one to a higher regard and another lower is not necesarily a problem with the car or brand, it's with one's perception.

It means nothing to establish arguments against this which were going on and regularly go on with nothing having to do with me. I agree, all brands choose not to do a lot of things but none are critisized as much as Honda/Acura here and that's no better.

It always the same thing around here and from the same people, why not talk about BMW not offering a decent FWD alternatives, or why Germans don't have more inclusive cheaper options or why I can't get a large mid sized sedan with an AWD and 6MT combo in any other luxury brand than Acura, or why others seem to suffer in resale and reliabilty, or why the entry car is too small from most other brands, etc, etc.

Most people don't complain about what brands don't do, they shut up and simply buy the one that does what they want and need it to do. I wouldn't call it an excuse when they produce more cost effective products and are considered to be very high on the value proposition list and that is a good thing when you can also be considered luxury at the same time. Maybe some will say barely luxury but that's ok because it's cheaper and is still considered luxury in the first place which is a popular balance. If one doesn't like they don't have to buy it but to constantly harp over it makes no sense to me. If that's the case then they must be doing something right.

phile

fixed

dom

Have a look at the URL of the site you're on.

This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.

You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.

Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.

And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.

winstrolvtec

It's all perspective, you can look at it this way or that way, but Acura would not have all FWD models right now if they didn't decide on SH.

Correct but it is no smaller with exception to the new gen releases and is cheaper. Any more added capcity and the car would fall into full sized ranking and Honda did not want that. They could acheive full sized on the platform but then they are just strecthcing certain elements of the vehicle and it's better to dsing a real full sized platform. That is why they have invested in a new platfrom for the next and RL and future TL models. It is the only sedan platform that they have decided to invest in, in some time.

That's a completely aesthetic and subjective issue nor does it dictate sucess or popularity, look at the 3G or other luxury FWD models. Most consumers don't know what a front overhang is. Sure we do because we are car nuts for the most part but overhangs are not necessarily bad it depends on how it's executed and the one thing is the TL is very porportioned while others with less overhang are not. The wheels are up close to the bumper and it looks good for the front but the rear now becomes the overhang and lack of front makes the rear worse.

But this is a completely opinionated discussion, I was coming from a more generalized position, yours is a more personal view, so there is a difference.

winstrolvtec

I understand better when it comes from that position as it's actually because you like what Acura and Honda represent at their core and that's good, lots of people do and probably should.

I am not asking for anyone not have any form of thoughts or opinions on the matter, just that I sometimes don't understand where it comes from, or the double standards, and it's hard to differentiate between a former Acura owner who are here hoping for more advancments in products or those who are just here with alterior motives.

Now that I do understand better, it makes more sense, but I have grown accustomed to many biased and unbalanced posts and perspectives against Acura and their cars but for those who approach it in everyone's best interests, I apologize, but I don't think I am off base in any of Car Talk or Automotive discussions, the TL praise is left in the TL forum but this is still Acurazine afterall and it's a little strange to see former owners or non owners having the most say and opinions when their perspective might be dated and isn't any better than mine.

saturno_v

I have huge admiration for Lexus, their build quality and interior refinement, their real profound innovation streak......build quality and attention to detail put everybody else to shame.....my dream car would have been a GS with manual transmission and the Acura SH-AWD.....

Company A dedicate its resources to innovate and improve in other areas of a specific product that consider worthwhile where that particular feature "X" would be not as useful in that particular product.....yes you can claim at the baseball game or at a friend's party that your car has 8 speed where the Lexus IS doesn't...if that makes you happy I'm glad for you....

You see I look under the skin where I buy a car..again you enjoy your 8-speed I enjoy other Acura refinements that other brands do not offer to give to you your 8 speed....simple

Next time google better....from Car & Driver (a self admitted "BMW Kool Aid drinker" magazine)

I never mention the S4, but once you brought that up, here you go:

=====================================

Compared to the TL, the BMW is still the benchmark for balanced handling. At almost every point on the track, either 335 and 335xi is perfectly neutral and very responsive to driver inputs. But—surprise, surprise—the TL is quicker around the track than any of the other cars. That’s by Acura’s timing of both its own test driver and of every journalist present at this press event. Given the unfamiliarity with the track and our aversion to crashing, we weren’t driving as hard as Acura’s hot shoe, but the results back up our impression.
So how does the Acura beat the more balanced BMWs, the more powerful S4, and the better power-to-weight ratio of the G35?

======================================


As I stated before, the TL whipped the 335i and the 335xi ass on a track (and the S4 behind too)....case closed I hope.....

Disclaimer...obviously it was the old S4 at the time of the test..

Link: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

The TL consistently loses in comparison tests mainly because of its polarizing styling that many people cannot stomach...I love it....to each his own....then the issue of the extra size against the cars they do match with and the less sportier more "sterile" feeling of the SH-AWD....but it is tremendously effective on the road...trust me...

Contradiction again...I thought that for you "front overhang", FWD, more refined driving, was important..not the laundry list...you are not going to win this....based on how you talk you should have gone for the 328...maybe waiting few months so you could cover the extra 10% from your firm budget.....

Here we agree...between a FWD car and an AWD (a good one not some el cheapo implementation like Haldex and so on) I would have gone for the AWD...yes in some regard the RWD cars are more funny (the oversteer kick) but, especially in bad weather, the fun wears out quickly....FWD car can be very funny too when you can stay with the throttle wide open in very twisty roads where with the RWD you need to be more careful....

Ohh trust me..the average public knows very well the difference in heritage between Audi and Mercedes....bet on it...

You do not read my posts....I always said the you can have a car as luxurious but without the same heritage....said that over and over.....and I never said that Lexus was on par with heritage and image with Mercedes!!! Where did you read that?? I lumped together Lexus, Infiniti, Acura and Audi all of them a notch below in heritage and brand image than Mercedes and BMW, I hope that clarify that once and for all....how luxurious a particular car is doesn't matter to the point I'm trying to make....Audi build cars as luxurious as MB, but the brand image is not the same. as some Audi lover believe...

First, I do not make it personal...we may even be friends as far as I'm concerned...yes Audi is a luxury brand, yes it builds higher end vehicles than Acura....however your A4 is not more luxurious than my TL...end of the story...I'm not going to change my mind on that (and trust me I ride in Audis often) and yoru are not going to change your mind on that..we agree to disagree...

You see, you always get back with this...where you see the alluminum trim I see the lack of vertical door handles, where you notice the extra leather padding, I notice the ugly seat nets or the cardboard-like trunk floor panel...there are many areas where the A4 plastic is hard and in my TL is soft or more refined....so you decide to focus and what you want to see and I focus on other things.....

The Audi offer a lot of extra if you pay, Acura gives you higher average trim appointments and less options and customizations....between fake leather (and by the way Alcantara is FAKE leather) in base A4 and top grain leather in the higher trim, Acura gives you the very good Milano...

There is nothing to "fix", AWD gives you even better road handling and bad weather capabilities that's all.....Honda FWD are generally the benchmark in FWD handling....a well known fact...

SH-AWD took huge resources to be developed and Audi and BMW were forced to quickly come up with their own Vectorial AWD implementation....do not pull things out of your behind.....

The vaunted superior weight distribution....hmm all that engineering and in the new A4/S4 is 56/44.....the poor traverse mounted TL is an horrendous......oops!!, 58/42.....wow that is serious stuff.....the BMW 3 series, a RWD layout adapted to a AWD by a convoluted transaxle setup with back and forth transmission axles manage a better 54/46 and the 5 Series is even better with 53/47.......Audi supreme engineering....and, cuntersy of the longitudinal engine, Audi loses legroom compared to a comparable Acura car.... again please let's not pull things out of our you know what....

The FWD per se imposes nothing...look at the MINI.....

dom

Well, I don't think its always done in everyone's best interest and sometimes its done in malice. Nobody's perfect, its easy to get carried away with a keyboard sometimes. Especially with subjects that can be passionate to some.

The one thing all these months of debate has given me is a real curiosity to get out and try a SH-AWD TL. Not at all in the market for a new car but I'd really like to see first hand how it handles. So in that respect, all you TL Fan-bois. j/k are getting the message across.

saturno_v

Maybe these users have outgrown the brand looking for more expensive upscale vehicles where Acura doesn't compete (they have their good reassons we may not agree with...but they run the show, and they are tremendously profitable)

The point I'm trying to make is that in the space where Acura compete, it does very well, it has technological edge and they are not less luxurious....everything else is just personal opinions.

knavinusa

I will say this: despite the TL's FWD architecture, Honda has always been good at suspension tuning. That's not too surprising though considering their involvement in F1.

What's your point? Alcantara is designed to be easy to clean and wears well. It's also quite comfortable to sit in. Who is trying to claim it's real suede? I'd take Alcantara over real leather.

Haldex isn't as poor as people would have you believe. I know some of them like to claim they can 'feel' the AWD engage mid-corner, but I think they're just off their rocker, considering how quickly it engages. There's no doubt a permanent AWD system is usually more flexible, however.

saturno_v

Thank you for bringing that up...


I'm dead serious.....even if I had a very significantly larger budget, within my current usage pattern and if I was still limited to pick one car, the best vehicle for my needs/want out there was the TL.....I cannot get from anybody else a sedan as powerful, as large (so the S4 or the 335 are out), AWD and with a real manual transmission...

On top of that is drop dead gorgeaous (highly subjective I know)...I had actually people coming to me at parking lots telling me how nice it looks....park it next to an Audi or a Bimmer and you see who stands out....

Of course if I had a very large budget I could buy some other fun toys but a TL would be still in my garage....

saturno_v

What's your point? Alcantara is designed to be easy to clean and wears well. It's also quite comfortable to sit in. Who is trying to claim it's real suede? I'd take Alcantara over real leather.[/quote]


If we are talking about luxury...and fake leather is not luxurious as real leather, no matter how practical....we were talking about luxury....fake wood trim is more durable than real wood (at least easire to mantain)..but it is FAKE...

The TL gives you standard Milano (not full grain but a step above simple real leather) seates, perforated and with contrast stitching....

knavinusa

I think luxury is pretty irrelevant when you typically see Alcantara in performance cars, not luxury cars. :wink: I don't think I've ever seen an S-Class, 7-series or A8 with it.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

So does that mean only part of the seats are luxurious seeing as how the sides and rear are not leather?

saturno_v

Hmmm???

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

You do know the entire seat cover is not leather, correct? There is some fake leather (vinyl) in there.

saturno_v

Tell me where......there is a lightly different surface grain is some corners patches of the back seats where they round up and are stitched...is due to different treatment to make that sensitive part (constantly pulled apart) more cracking resistant (that particular patches as far as I know are actually higher grain)

It smells the same...as leather.....vynil is unmistakable to the touch...that can be a nasty lawsuit if they would not speficy the presence of vinyl in the brochures...

Look at the leather of the steering wheel for example...different touch and grain than the seats...again...for better wear resistance...

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Basically everything you dont sit on is vinyl.

And what lawsuit? The brochures say leather seating surfaces, not the entire cover. Not many manufacturers use leather on the entire seat cover.

saturno_v

I did not find any info about this googling around..where do you get this info?? Any link or source specifically for Acura?? Subaru, for example, in some of its models specify they have Alcantara "inserts" in their seats....some other brands specify "leather inserts" as well...

Hey if it is vinyl is the best damned vinyl I ever seen because it smells like leather and you cannot tell any different from the grain in the perforated area....

Quite different, for example, than the C-Class I tested...they clearly tell you that is not real leather but you can feel the plasticky feeling immediately....unmistakable...same for BMW...you can tell very easily...



Even if is true and all manufacturers do it...that level the playing field.....better than not having real leather at all....but again....would be interesting if you can provide any solid info on this....

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Check the detailing section on here. Its been covered multiple times.

Belzebutt

So on one hand we have you saying that alcantara is not luxury because it's "FAKE LEATHER".

On the other hand we have alcantara being expensive, durable, and being used extensively in cars like the Bugatti Veryron, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, as well as some upper-end German brands, and never in cheap cars.

pttl

and so the fanbois just keep ramming the same old fanboi speak down everyone's throat.


Acura is best in world. Only Acura is worthy of consideration. We will keep saying this until everyone else comes to their senses and admit. No other car company on earth can do more with less. Best materials, best ergonomics, best lugnuts, best mirror, drop dead gorgeous best valve train, bets combustion chamber, best door handles, best handling, fastest, best aerodynamics............................

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Dont forget it does all that on 225/55-18s. No other competition can do that unless with sports 7 speed auto transmission.

saturno_v

Never in cheap cars like Subaru???

Alcantara is used for trims in very high end cars, not seats, unless a less slippery and durable surface is required for extreme sports car that get used on a track a lot.

Some of very high end exotic sports car actually do not put much accent in luxury details but lightweight, and extreme durability in hard use.....on some Ferraris models up to few years ago, power windows were optional!!! Certain type of supercars actually want to give a minimalist image.

Alcantara was pionereed in car seats in the 80's, to be exact in 1984 on the Lancia Thema sedan (which I drove several times, I was born and raised in Italy)

The Alcantara seats on that car (not a very high end car by any stretch of imagination, just a premium sedan from a mainstream producer) was an intermediate option between the cloth seats (standard equipment) and the full leather seats...it was advertised as durable as leather but not as costly....

Here you go....Lancia Thema the first Alcantara seats car (the pic is actually of a model year 1988 restyling)...

saturno_v

I propose to change the name of this site from Acurazine to Acurabashers.....it seems more appropriate....

saturno_v

Point me to a specific thread with reliable specific sources.

I cannot find the "Detailing" section, just Wash & Wax and a search for "vinyl" does not bring anything....

saturno_v

Short of arguments??...I do not recall anybody actually saying that.....quite the contrary we just have many German car owners/admirers that feel the need to be constantly on this forum to tell us how superior and better and more luxurious their cars are.....I'm sure there are other outlets where they can share their unconditional love....

smarty666

What ever happened to talking about Honda's future??

saturno_v

It happened that someone pointed how "smart luxury" was not "real luxury" and how superior the German platforms are, no "overhang", FWD, etc.........it started derailing at page 3 or 4 and Acura "supporters" were not the ones to start...

fsttyms1

Why? This is car talk. Its about all around discussion. We arent in the specific model areas. This area does NOT have to pertain to Acura products nor do we have to fanboy dry hump Honda tail pipes. Most in here have moved on from Acura. Those that dont like acura as much are just as entitled to our opinions of what we think acura is doind wrong as you are to what you think they are doing right!

pttl

Arguments? NO. What point is there in arguing anything with a fanboi of a particular brand or car? It took you fewer than 140 posts to reveal your true self and agenda.

We all get it... You love your TL. That's great. Trying to bludgeon everyone into thinking the way you do is tiresome.

regarding the "German car owners" did you read dom's post:
Every one of the people on AZ who now own a German car has every right to voice their thoughts on Acura or any other brand of car. THE DIFFERENCE is, they can and do give credit to various other cars and brands of cars and they move on. YOU like, all fanbois, try to make everyone else worship at the alter of a particular brand. It's tiresome.

Just because you used to own xyz brand and now have "stopped drinking the German Koo aid"... doesn't give you any more credibility. Your ridiculous bludgeoning tactics cause people to recoil and act and speak in the opposite manner. i find myself acting this way.

I actually WANT Acura to get their shit together. But in my mind they are not getting it done, and you with your fanboi-ism causes me to reflexively regurgitate against your constant praise of a company who, to this current owner, has lost its way. They are going to lose another customer (me) when it comes time for a new car.

Argue? With a fanboi? No so much. Remember - before you there was ssftsx.

fsttyms1

My TL is littered with Vinyl. sides, rear, even the top portions around the edges are. Only surface that is real is where your ass and back go. And its cheap vinyl.

saturno_v

Why you got your car it irt was that horrible??

smarty666

I'm pretty sure that the only parts of the front and rear seats that is actually leather is the middle portions where the perforation's are. The sides and headrest feel of a vinyl material. They do not have the same feel and texture of the perforated area.

By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Lexus has the brand prestige and image of luxury in this country that BMW and MB do. They have the sales, offerings, reliability, and brand image to back it up. They might be for the most part bland and boring but people flock to them and when they think of luxury, BMW, MB, and LEXUS comes to mind the most. They worked hard for it and rightly deserve it.