Honda: Development and Technology News
#841
I was at a Dyno Day today with sum SRT-4 members, but us Acura people always vicariously meet up. I was talking to 2 members who own TL Type S and they told me that Acura in 2010 is going to switch ALL OF THEIR LINES (as in every car model) to DIESEL. I was completely shocked when they told me this. I did not believe them, but did some research on the internet today and unfortunately it is true. It looks as if they are starting out with the TSX and Accord and going to eventually change them all. Now Honda came out with the hybrid Accord which did not do as well as they planned in sales wise. But the diesel is supposed to get a lot better gas milage then the hybrid. Does anyone have any more input or knowledge on this topic??
I guess ill have to add the diesel octane to my avatar now![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
I guess ill have to add the diesel octane to my avatar now
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
#845
Senior Moderator
Diesel is subsidized in Europe, so that's why many manufacturers are going that route (ie cheaper fuel option). However, with 'demand' so high for diesel to haul stuff ... but with a recession just around the corner, maybe demand for diesel fuel will wane a bit so that it might be a competitive option over 'regular' gasoline.
Nevertheless ... manual transmissions will never catch on here. We are too lazy a society (for the most part) for the masses to learn to drive stick in droves. Only people outside of NA or those who are "true" car enthusiasts (or hypermilers) will opt for the manual transmission.
I will say -- if I lived in traffic infested NYC or LA ... I would opt for an auto tranny 99 days out of 100. I'm used to it now but if I lived in SF -- auto for sure -- I couldn't stand having to use the hand brake every time I was at a red light.
Nevertheless ... manual transmissions will never catch on here. We are too lazy a society (for the most part) for the masses to learn to drive stick in droves. Only people outside of NA or those who are "true" car enthusiasts (or hypermilers) will opt for the manual transmission.
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#846
intelligentsia
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#848
6spder
Join Date: Jul 2006
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i bed to differ, i drive to alots of traffic daily, chicago is one of the worst for traffic, no problems, sure, your feet get some exercise, but its 10000% worth it for the times when u aren't in traffic.
#849
Senior Moderator
Merged...
Here's the thread for Honda: https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-diesel-engine-news-%2A%2Adeveloping-v6-page-1-%2A%2A-350014/
Here's the thread for Honda: https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-diesel-engine-news-%2A%2Adeveloping-v6-page-1-%2A%2A-350014/
#851
Senior Moderator
#852
I've never been to Chicago, but if it's anything like NYC, there is a 1000% possibility that you are in traffic at any given minute, so MT is not an option. It's insane, I don't even know why people have cars in NYC. You park in a garage and walk 5 blocks to your closet, I mean apartment..
#853
Race Director
That would be the 2.2 i-DTEC which will probably be carried over as is to the US. The only issue for Honda is to make it work with the 5AT since it's only sold with the 6MT in Europe.
The V6 diesel is probably still in the works for the bigger vehicles - and its debut will probably hinge on the success of the smaller diesel.
Like the US there are many places in Europe where diesel is more expensive than gas - yet people still buy diesels in much higher numbers than in the US - because the math just works.
The V6 diesel is probably still in the works for the bigger vehicles - and its debut will probably hinge on the success of the smaller diesel.
Like the US there are many places in Europe where diesel is more expensive than gas - yet people still buy diesels in much higher numbers than in the US - because the math just works.
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#854
intelligentsia
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Well diesel gets better gas mileage thus diesel should be available in the US. Hell most cars in Europe get at least 35mpg if not more.
#855
Senior Moderator
From TOV.....
Earlier this year at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui announced that 2009 would see Honda's first clean diesel engine to be sold in the USA. Though it was stated that the diesel engine would appear in an undisclosed Acura model, it was all but common knowledge that the TSX would be the first model to get the diesel engine.
Fast forward nearly 10 months, and we've received word that the i-DTEC TSX has been delayed indefinitely (if not cancelled outright). According to anonymous sources, while the 6MT version of the i-DTEC TSX has successfully cleared emissions certification, the automatic-equipped version has been unable to pass certification. According to these sources, Acura decided that the demand for a TSX diesel would be greatly compromised if it were only offered with a 6-speed manual, so they decided to put the TSX diesel on indefinite hold.
That's the bad news. The good news is that a V-6 version is said to be coming soon. We're still seeking any details we can uncover on that powertrain.
Earlier this year at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui announced that 2009 would see Honda's first clean diesel engine to be sold in the USA. Though it was stated that the diesel engine would appear in an undisclosed Acura model, it was all but common knowledge that the TSX would be the first model to get the diesel engine.
Fast forward nearly 10 months, and we've received word that the i-DTEC TSX has been delayed indefinitely (if not cancelled outright). According to anonymous sources, while the 6MT version of the i-DTEC TSX has successfully cleared emissions certification, the automatic-equipped version has been unable to pass certification. According to these sources, Acura decided that the demand for a TSX diesel would be greatly compromised if it were only offered with a 6-speed manual, so they decided to put the TSX diesel on indefinite hold.
That's the bad news. The good news is that a V-6 version is said to be coming soon. We're still seeking any details we can uncover on that powertrain.
#857
Race Director
That's ironic cause I posted something over at Edmunds saying the only delay could be due to the diesel/5AT combo - all of EU uses the 6MT with the diesel.
Of course this begs the question - what the heck is so difficult about making the 5AT meet specs that the 6MT had no issue with?
Of course this begs the question - what the heck is so difficult about making the 5AT meet specs that the 6MT had no issue with?
Last edited by biker; 10-24-2008 at 06:44 AM.
#864
Senior Moderator
Honda has to spend more on transmission R&D or ... suck it up and collaborate with people like Nissin or other companies that 'understand' how transmissions are made. ![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
This is getting ridiculous! 5AT? I speculate to say ... it might not be emissions to be the sole problem. It may be making a reliable transmission that can handle the torque of a diesel *and* be meet emissions standards.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
This is getting ridiculous! 5AT? I speculate to say ... it might not be emissions to be the sole problem. It may be making a reliable transmission that can handle the torque of a diesel *and* be meet emissions standards.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
#865
Senior Moderator
Is the Acura TSX diesel DOA?
Posted Oct 27th 2008 8:31AM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Sedans/Saloons, Acura
At the 2008 Detroit Auto Show, Acura showed off a new 2.2-liter four-cylinder diesel engine and announced it would debut a production version in 2009. Informed speculation says that the oilburner would be equipped in the new TSX, a re-badged version of the European Honda Accord that currently offers the engine. Honda engineers have even presented documents outlining the new exhaust developed for the engine in the last two editions of the Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress.
Unfortunately, it looks like we might not get a chance to sample a diesel TSX in the U.S. after all. An anonymous poster on the MotorTrend forums is claiming that Honda has not been able to pass emissions certification with the automatic transmission TSX diesel. The manual transmission version is fine, but the poster claims there wouldn't be enough demand in the U.S. market for the manual-only model and Honda will therefore drop the diesel altogether. We don't know if this is true, and Acura has not yet responded to our request for a comment. It will most like be a "no comment" anyway.
For what it's worth, we're suitably dubious about the source and the information, particularly considering that modern cars with electronically controlled automatic transmissions typically perform better on emissions and fuel economy. This is primarily due to the engineer's ability to have more control over the interaction between the engine and the transmission, and less to do with the person behind the wheel. Hopefully the story is untrue, because it would be nice to finally get a Honda/Acura with some low end torque.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/27/a...or-of-a/print/
Posted Oct 27th 2008 8:31AM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Sedans/Saloons, Acura
At the 2008 Detroit Auto Show, Acura showed off a new 2.2-liter four-cylinder diesel engine and announced it would debut a production version in 2009. Informed speculation says that the oilburner would be equipped in the new TSX, a re-badged version of the European Honda Accord that currently offers the engine. Honda engineers have even presented documents outlining the new exhaust developed for the engine in the last two editions of the Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress.
Unfortunately, it looks like we might not get a chance to sample a diesel TSX in the U.S. after all. An anonymous poster on the MotorTrend forums is claiming that Honda has not been able to pass emissions certification with the automatic transmission TSX diesel. The manual transmission version is fine, but the poster claims there wouldn't be enough demand in the U.S. market for the manual-only model and Honda will therefore drop the diesel altogether. We don't know if this is true, and Acura has not yet responded to our request for a comment. It will most like be a "no comment" anyway.
For what it's worth, we're suitably dubious about the source and the information, particularly considering that modern cars with electronically controlled automatic transmissions typically perform better on emissions and fuel economy. This is primarily due to the engineer's ability to have more control over the interaction between the engine and the transmission, and less to do with the person behind the wheel. Hopefully the story is untrue, because it would be nice to finally get a Honda/Acura with some low end torque.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/27/a...or-of-a/print/
#866
Race Director
An anonymous poster on the MotorTrend forums is claiming that Honda has not been able to pass emissions certification with the automatic transmission TSX diesel.
![Bullshit](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/bs.gif)
#867
Senior Moderator
That's what I was thinking, but I checked back on TOV and Jeff posted and said that the "anonymous poster" copied from TOV.
Here is Jeff's response:
Check the dates - the motortrend poster simply copied and pasted exactly what was posted here, and actually linked back to this story. And in typical autoblog fashion, they cited an intermediate "source". For whatever reason, they never credit the original source - I don't get it but it seems to be their M.O. The original source of this information contacted us directly.
For what it's worth, I contacted two members of Acura's PR team to see if they would comment on this. The first one responded immediately but referred me to somebody closer to the situation. I contacted the 2nd person on Friday morning and haven't heard a response at all.
Here is Jeff's response:
Check the dates - the motortrend poster simply copied and pasted exactly what was posted here, and actually linked back to this story. And in typical autoblog fashion, they cited an intermediate "source". For whatever reason, they never credit the original source - I don't get it but it seems to be their M.O. The original source of this information contacted us directly.
For what it's worth, I contacted two members of Acura's PR team to see if they would comment on this. The first one responded immediately but referred me to somebody closer to the situation. I contacted the 2nd person on Friday morning and haven't heard a response at all.
#869
Senior Moderator
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...lI&refer=japan
...
Honda Reevaluates Timing for Diesel Autos in U.S. (Update2)
By Alan Ohnsman
Oct. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co., the world's largest engine maker, said it's reconsidering its target of starting sales of diesel-powered autos in the U.S. next year.
``We're still evaluating diesel fuel price trends and raw- material costs,'' David Iida, a spokesman for the Tokyo-based company's U.S. unit, said in an interview today. Honda hasn't set a date for selling such vehicles, he said.
President Takeo Fukui said in January at the Detroit auto show that an Acura model using Honda's i-DTEC diesel engine would arrive in the U.S. in 2009. That engine probably will be available first on the Acura TSX sport sedan, a U.S. version of Honda's European Accord, which already offers a diesel model.
Honda has said its engine will be among the cleanest diesels sold in the U.S. and will be able to meet air-pollution rules in California that now limit sales of such models. While diesel offers about 30 percent higher mileage than gasoline, the fuel costs an average of $3.39 a gallon in the U.S., compared with $2.59 for gasoline, according to motorist group AAA.
Japan's Nikkei English News reported earlier that Honda would put off sales of such cars in the U.S. and Japan until at least 2010, citing a company executive who wasn't identified. The delay is the result of difficulties in reducing costs to make the engines, Nikkei said.
Honda's American depositary receipts rose $2.19, or 9.6 percent, to $24.94 at 4:02 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. They have declined 25 percent this year.
By Alan Ohnsman
Oct. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co., the world's largest engine maker, said it's reconsidering its target of starting sales of diesel-powered autos in the U.S. next year.
``We're still evaluating diesel fuel price trends and raw- material costs,'' David Iida, a spokesman for the Tokyo-based company's U.S. unit, said in an interview today. Honda hasn't set a date for selling such vehicles, he said.
President Takeo Fukui said in January at the Detroit auto show that an Acura model using Honda's i-DTEC diesel engine would arrive in the U.S. in 2009. That engine probably will be available first on the Acura TSX sport sedan, a U.S. version of Honda's European Accord, which already offers a diesel model.
Honda has said its engine will be among the cleanest diesels sold in the U.S. and will be able to meet air-pollution rules in California that now limit sales of such models. While diesel offers about 30 percent higher mileage than gasoline, the fuel costs an average of $3.39 a gallon in the U.S., compared with $2.59 for gasoline, according to motorist group AAA.
Japan's Nikkei English News reported earlier that Honda would put off sales of such cars in the U.S. and Japan until at least 2010, citing a company executive who wasn't identified. The delay is the result of difficulties in reducing costs to make the engines, Nikkei said.
Honda's American depositary receipts rose $2.19, or 9.6 percent, to $24.94 at 4:02 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. They have declined 25 percent this year.
...
#872
Senior Moderator
#873
Senior Moderator
With urea injection..... Not the same thing.
You guys have far too much faith in Honda IMO. What we do know is that there was no existing AT for the diesel. So its not inconceivable that their first ever AT didn't meet expectations. Lets not forget that this is a company new to the diesel game.
Having said that is may be entirely true that costs are what's driving this. But its not clear at this time.
#874
Senior Moderator
I just can't understand why they'd say in a press release that it's coming, and say it passed emissions tests and can be sold in all 50 states, if in fact it really didn't pass. It just doesn't make any sense.
#876
Senior Moderator
From TOV...
Note: Reprinted with permission from Ward's Auto World
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Oct 30, 2008 10:29 AM
Honda Motor Co. Ltd.’s plan to bring a diesel-equipped Acura TSX to the U.S. next year is dead before arrival.
“The (diesel in the) Acura has been canceled,” a source familiar with the program tells Ward’s.
A report in the Japanese business daily Nikkei News today says Honda will delay launching a diesel engine in the U.S. until 2010 or later.
A rumor, published this week on the “Temple of VTEC,” a Honda enthusiasts’ website, claims the engine did not meet U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s emissions standards when tested with an automatic transmission.
The diesel-powered TSX equipped with a manual gearbox reportedly passed muster, but Honda rejected the business case to make the vehicle available in the U.S. without an automatic.
American Honda Motor Co. Inc. declines comment.
Honda first announced plans to bring a diesel engine to the U.S. in May 2006. It later was revealed the engine would be the i-DTEC 4-cyl. turbodiesel, already available in the European Honda Accord that is sold in the U.S. as the Acura TSX.
CEO Takeo Fukui, speaking at the 2008 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, said Honda’s first vehicle to feature a diesel engine in the U.S. would be an Acura model. At the show, the auto maker displayed an i-DTEC mill in a glass case at the Acura stand.
While Fukui declined to reveal which model would receive the diesel, sources say it was intended to power the TSX midsize sedan.
Fukui was bullish on his company’s diesel plans, which were to include the Honda brand at the time, saying the business case suggested “an appropriate profit level,” despite the price premium applied to diesel fuel. He also forecast eventual annual U.S. sales of 150,000 units.
Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the non-profit diesel-advocacy group, Diesel Technology Forum, expresses surprise at the notion Honda did not foresee testing problems.
In terms of performance and emissions achievements, we’ve seen data presented at technical conferences that (Honda) could make this system work,” Schaeffer says. “People don’t make those kinds of announcements without expecting to meet emissions standards.”
To meet stringent Tier 2, Bin 5 EPA emissions standards, Honda said it would use a catalytic converter to reduce oxides of nitrogen, instead of introducing urea to the engine exhaust – a strategy employed by most European auto makers.
Recent months have proven difficult for U.S. diesel enthusiasts. The cancellation of the Acura program is the latest in a string of pullbacks.
In September, Chrysler LLC admitted it was postponing plans to market a Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV equipped with a Mercedes Bluetec diesel engine.
Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.’s Jim Lentz later said the auto maker was reviewing its strategy to bring a diesel engine to market in its Tundra fullsize pickup truck and Sequoia large SUV.
Both Chrysler and Toyota cite the high cost of diesel fuel as a problem, as well as the added expense of the emissions technology necessary to meet EPA requirements.
Despite diesel fuel prices that topped $5 per gallon in the U.S. during the summer, a top American Honda official was high on diesel’s arrival in Acura’s lineup as recently as July, insisting the math still worked in the auto maker’s favor.
“The (fuel) efficiency (of a diesel engine) is greater than the price differential, so it still makes some sense,” Dan Bonawitz, vice president-corporate planning and logistics, said at the time.
Diesel Technology Forum’s Schaeffer says there is light at the end of the tunnel, citing more diesel-equipped vehicles than ever on their way to the U.S. in the months ahead.
“This year, we’re looking at the BMW 3-Series (and) X5 (and) Audi Q7 coming,” he says of future diesel-equipped models. Volkswagen AG’s success with the Jetta TDI also is proof diesel has a future in the U.S. “There are waiting lists for that vehicle,” he says.
“Diesel fuel prices are moderating in some parts of California,” adds Schaeffer, noting a gallon of diesel costs less there than a gallon of gasoline. “We’re seeing the fuel trends go the right way.”
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Oct 30, 2008 10:29 AM
Honda Motor Co. Ltd.’s plan to bring a diesel-equipped Acura TSX to the U.S. next year is dead before arrival.
“The (diesel in the) Acura has been canceled,” a source familiar with the program tells Ward’s.
A report in the Japanese business daily Nikkei News today says Honda will delay launching a diesel engine in the U.S. until 2010 or later.
A rumor, published this week on the “Temple of VTEC,” a Honda enthusiasts’ website, claims the engine did not meet U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s emissions standards when tested with an automatic transmission.
The diesel-powered TSX equipped with a manual gearbox reportedly passed muster, but Honda rejected the business case to make the vehicle available in the U.S. without an automatic.
American Honda Motor Co. Inc. declines comment.
Honda first announced plans to bring a diesel engine to the U.S. in May 2006. It later was revealed the engine would be the i-DTEC 4-cyl. turbodiesel, already available in the European Honda Accord that is sold in the U.S. as the Acura TSX.
CEO Takeo Fukui, speaking at the 2008 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, said Honda’s first vehicle to feature a diesel engine in the U.S. would be an Acura model. At the show, the auto maker displayed an i-DTEC mill in a glass case at the Acura stand.
While Fukui declined to reveal which model would receive the diesel, sources say it was intended to power the TSX midsize sedan.
Fukui was bullish on his company’s diesel plans, which were to include the Honda brand at the time, saying the business case suggested “an appropriate profit level,” despite the price premium applied to diesel fuel. He also forecast eventual annual U.S. sales of 150,000 units.
Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the non-profit diesel-advocacy group, Diesel Technology Forum, expresses surprise at the notion Honda did not foresee testing problems.
In terms of performance and emissions achievements, we’ve seen data presented at technical conferences that (Honda) could make this system work,” Schaeffer says. “People don’t make those kinds of announcements without expecting to meet emissions standards.”
To meet stringent Tier 2, Bin 5 EPA emissions standards, Honda said it would use a catalytic converter to reduce oxides of nitrogen, instead of introducing urea to the engine exhaust – a strategy employed by most European auto makers.
Recent months have proven difficult for U.S. diesel enthusiasts. The cancellation of the Acura program is the latest in a string of pullbacks.
In September, Chrysler LLC admitted it was postponing plans to market a Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV equipped with a Mercedes Bluetec diesel engine.
Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.’s Jim Lentz later said the auto maker was reviewing its strategy to bring a diesel engine to market in its Tundra fullsize pickup truck and Sequoia large SUV.
Both Chrysler and Toyota cite the high cost of diesel fuel as a problem, as well as the added expense of the emissions technology necessary to meet EPA requirements.
Despite diesel fuel prices that topped $5 per gallon in the U.S. during the summer, a top American Honda official was high on diesel’s arrival in Acura’s lineup as recently as July, insisting the math still worked in the auto maker’s favor.
“The (fuel) efficiency (of a diesel engine) is greater than the price differential, so it still makes some sense,” Dan Bonawitz, vice president-corporate planning and logistics, said at the time.
Diesel Technology Forum’s Schaeffer says there is light at the end of the tunnel, citing more diesel-equipped vehicles than ever on their way to the U.S. in the months ahead.
“This year, we’re looking at the BMW 3-Series (and) X5 (and) Audi Q7 coming,” he says of future diesel-equipped models. Volkswagen AG’s success with the Jetta TDI also is proof diesel has a future in the U.S. “There are waiting lists for that vehicle,” he says.
“Diesel fuel prices are moderating in some parts of California,” adds Schaeffer, noting a gallon of diesel costs less there than a gallon of gasoline. “We’re seeing the fuel trends go the right way.”
#878
Senior Moderator
If you want diesel that bad they'll be plenty of VW's, BMW's and Benz's for you to buy.
I guess they have the whole AT emissions issue sorted out.![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, they have experience with diesels. Although experience is a poor choice of words since they sell more diesels than gas engines overseas. It shouldn't be surprising.
I guess they have the whole AT emissions issue sorted out.
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, they have experience with diesels. Although experience is a poor choice of words since they sell more diesels than gas engines overseas. It shouldn't be surprising.
#880
Senior Moderator
If you want diesel that bad they'll be plenty of VW's, BMW's and Benz's for you to buy.
I guess they have the whole AT emissions issue sorted out.![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, they have experience with diesels. Although experience is a poor choice of words since they sell more diesels than gas engines overseas. It shouldn't be surprising.
I guess they have the whole AT emissions issue sorted out.
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, they have experience with diesels. Although experience is a poor choice of words since they sell more diesels than gas engines overseas. It shouldn't be surprising.