charliemike

BUT, Honda has the advantage of not having to use urea. MB uses urea, VW doesn't obviously. BUT, would anyone bet on Honda vs VW in a head-to-head sales contest?

I wouldn't.

biker

True, but if they had got it out this year they would have had leg up - everyone will have a diesel next year. And unlike hybrids it will be a much bigger pie to divide.

swift22

Diesel in northern WI-$3.42

premium 91 octane-$3.32-49

So even if your getting better gas mileage if the fuel is more expensive...are you really saving. um no.

dom

Officially going in the next TSX according to a leftlanenews report.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/acura-ts...-up-scale.html

Crazy Bimmer

Moog-Type-S

Acura moving upmarket...Maybach...to rival MB, BMW....new NSX is coming.....RL will be totally different....

I'll believe it when I see it.

Edward'TLS

Only in Honda's dream will a lame turbo-diesel-I4 move the Acura brand market. Honda really needs twin-turbo-diesel-V6 and twin-turbo-diesel-V8 to do the job. Looking across the other luxury brands, the Audi R8 is getting the twin-turbo-diesel-V10, that's what moves the brand upmarket.

TSX69

AutoMakers Pump Up Models w/ Diesel Power
DETROIT — Diesel fuel costs an average 38 cents a gallon more than gasoline, isn't available at every filling station, and in the past, has been associated with engines that clatter and smoke.

But none of those negatives dissuaded automakers from rolling out a raft of new diesel car, truck and SUV models at the North American International Auto Show here last week.

It's not just German makers anymore. Among models unveiled last week were offerings of Japanese and South Korean brands that have eschewed diesel cars in the past.

They hope Americans will warm to a new wave of diesels as quiet, clean and smoke-free as their gasoline-fed siblings. Diesels also usually offer more torque, which helps in trailer pulling.

Mercedes (DAI) spokesman Robert Moran says today's diesels also have overcome past issues with cold-weather starting. Mercedes models, he says, need no more than an extra second to start on the coldest mornings and heat up faster than gas engines once running.

The biggest attraction: Diesels offer 20% to 40% more miles per gallon than comparable gasoline engines and are available off the shelf now.

"It's here-and-now technology," says Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum. "There's no looming questions about batteries" as with gas-electric hybrids.

The looming question is whether consumers will embrace diesels. They are hugely popular in Europe, where diesel fuel costs less. But that's not so in the USA. On Friday, diesel fuel averaged $3.41 a gallon nationally, 12% more than regular gas at $3.03, according to the daily survey in AAA's Fuel Gauge Report.

"Diesel isn't cheap and isn't going to get cheaper," says Brett Smith of the Center for Automotive Research.

Diesel vehicles also are likely to cost more to buy, though a smaller premium than hybrids.

Despite question marks, automakers unveiling new diesels included:

•BMW. Planned for sale next fall are two diesel vehicles with decidedly hard-to-remember names — the compact 335d sedan and the X5 3.0sd sport-utility vehicle.

The German automaker says the pair's 3-liter, 265-horsepower diesel will meet emissions rules in all states because of a new catalytic converter system and injection of the chemical urea into the exhaust. The injection system is called BluePerformance.

BMW is counting on diesel's torque during acceleration to make it popular.

•Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes, one of the biggest promoters of diesel through the years, is showing off two concept versions of its diesel-powered Vision GLK small SUV.

The two concepts, the Freeside and the Townside, are powered by a new-generation, four-cylinder, 2.2-liter diesel that neutralizes up to 80% of nitrogen-oxide emissions with a urea-injection system.

•Audi. To debunk the image that diesels are stodgy performers, Audi is showing off a 12-cylinder diesel concept version of its R8 sports car. The 500-horsepower engine powers the car from zero to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds and tops out at 186 mph. But don't expect to find one in showrooms anytime soon, if ever.

•Chrysler. A two-seat Jeep Renegade concept vehicle was designed as a plug-in hybrid with a twist: The rugged off-road vehicle is also a diesel.

Its small Bluetec diesel engine takes over when its lithium-ion batteries run out of juice. Renegade has a 40-mile range in electric-only mode. A 115-horsepower, 1.5-liter diesel takes it the rest of its journey.

•Toyota. The Japanese giant announced last week that clean-diesel V-8s will be available "in the near future" for its full-size Tundra pickups and Sequoia SUVs. But Toyota (TM) officials are not without reservations.

A surge in popularity of diesels could drive pump prices higher, warns Jim Lentz, president of Toyota's U.S. sales operation.

In introducing diesels, "we're hedging our bet, because diesel is the best current solution for a full-size pickup" when it comes to fuel economy and towing power, Lentz said in an interview.

•Honda. A clean-diesel engine will become available in one of Honda's (HMC) upscale Acura vehicles next year. Unlike the larger German diesels, it won't require urea injection to cut emissions, which should result in less maintenance, CEO Takeo Fukui announced last week.

•Kia. The South Korean automaker plans to put a diesel engine in the new seven-passenger Borrego SUV by 2010. The gasoline version goes on sale this summer with Kia's first V-8 engine.

So many new diesels were unveiled at the Detroit auto show's press preview that Consumer Reports auto testing director David Champion said he felt like calling it "the diesel show."

The price of the diesels is "a bit of a question mark," but he says he has no doubt about sales: "People are going to get them."

LuvMyTSX

For people already buying premium gas, buying diesel won't be a problem. They'll be getting better mpg with the diesel. The question is whether people buying regular gas will be willing to jump to the price of diesel. The mpg benefit will have to be clear to buyers.

SiGGy

Your calculator is broken...

Lets say you average 25MPG on 91 octane and 30MPG diesel. In the real world diesel MPG would be higher. We'll use a 5MPG difference though to show even an insignificant increase in MPG would still save you $$...


17 gallons fills up your tank (we'll pretend it's a TL)

I'll use your prices... With the lowest 91 Octane.

$3.42/g diesel; $58.14 /tank
$3.32/g 91 octane; $56.44 /tank

Diesel @ 30MPG; 17g tank = 510 mile range
91 Octane @ 25MPG; 17g tank = 425 mile range

Diesel 510 miles at $58.14 /tank = 11.4 cents per mile
91 octane 425 miles @ 56.44 /tank = 13.28 cents per mile


Lets say you drove 1000 miles...

Diesel would cost: $114
91 Octane: $132.80

Diesels generally do more than 5MPG better than regular gas. So the difference would be even greater. Like Volkswagens diesel Jetta wagon was at least 40MPG. Some even got it to do better; 45-50mpg by just driving the speed limits.

(Here's the short math; I wanted to draw that out fully in the above example)
Just take price per gallon and divide it by MPG.

i.e.
$3.42/30MPG=.114 (11.4 cents per mile)

TSX69

Honda to Launch Dedicated Hybrid in 2009
Tue May 20, 2008 11:23pm EDT

TOKYO (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co, Japan's No.2 automaker, said on Wednesday it would launch its planned dedicated hybrid sedan in Japan, North America and Europe in early 2009.

Chief Executive Takeo Fukui told a news conference the company expected annual sales of 500,000 vehicles combined of four hybrid models after 2010.

In addition to the existing Civic hybrid and the already-announced hybrid sedan and sports car based on the CR-Z concept model, Honda will add a gasoline-electric version of its popular Fit subcompact, he said.

Honda, which leads the industry in the fuel-saving technology with Toyota Motor Corp, said the new hybrid-only car would be a five-seater, five-door car sharing a design concept with its FCX Clarity fuel-cell vehicle.

Honda had promised the hybrid-only car for launch some time in 2009 after drastically reducing production costs and making them more affordable for consumers. Toyota, which has pole position in the market with its Prius hybrid-only model, is also racing to slash production costs for future vehicles.

Fukui repeated a sales goal of 200,000 units globally for the dedicated hybrid sedan.

Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, is aiming to achieve annual hybrid sales of 1 million vehicles soon after 2010, accounting for roughly one-tenth of its total sales. Honda has a similar goal of hybridizing about 10 percent of its fleet.

Honda has said it expects to sell more than 4.5 million cars and 18 million motorcycles worldwide in 2010. Last year, it sold 3.767 million cars and 13.48 million motorcycles.

(Reporting by Chang-Ran Kim, Editing by Brent Kininmont)

LuvMyTSX

Should be interesting in the next couple of years with more hybrid and diesel models coming out.

dom

Sign me up for a hybrid Fit.

Black Tire

A Fit hybrid? Doesn't the fit already do amazing MPG?

dom

Its ~ 35. Good, but hardly amazing. 50 is Amazing IMO.

TSX69

Not really when compared to the Civic which has a larger engine:

Fit 5-Spd AT
Standard Engine 1.5L 109 hp I4
Standard Transmission 5-Speed Automatic Overdrive
Fuel Economy (MPG) (city/highway) 27 / 34
Horsepower 109 @ 5800 RPM


Civic LX Sedan 5-Spd AT
1.8L 140 hp I4
5-Speed Automatic Overdrive
Fuel Economy (MPG) (city/highway) 25 / 36
Horsepower 140 @ 6300 RPM

dom

Guess I over estimated. I remember hearing 35. Maybe thats the HWY mileage for the 09.

And the Fit Hybrid is not confirmed for NA anyway. Only Europe.

TSX69

Honda Fit Hybrid Announced, 4 Hybrids by 2015
While Toyota may have a hybrid version of the Camry and the Highlander; when one thinks of the words ‘Toyota’ and ‘Hybrid’ in the same sentence, an image of the Prius is most likely to pop up in your head. That’s what we like about Toyota’s hybrid initiative and now with all the talk of throwing the Prius badge on a new family of hybrids just makes it all the less confusing.

Honestly, with all the recent news of all the upcoming Honda hybrids, we’ve been very confused. We really hope Honda figures this out early, because they’ve got four hybrids planned to hit the market by 2015. The number two Japanese automaker just announced that it will launch a hybrid version of the Fit in its next-generation model.

“The Fit has great fuel efficiency to begin with, and if you put in a hybrid, it’s going to get even better,” CEO Fukui said during a mid-year news conference. “So with crude oil prices going up this much, I think a Fit hybrid is now starting to make sense.”

Price difference between the regular Fit and the hybrid Fit will be less than $2,000 when it arrives in 2015, said Fukui.

Next year Honda will roll out an all new dedicated and affordable hybrid model that will go head-to-head with Toyota Prius, followed by a redesigned Civic hybrid. That will be followed by a production version of the CR-Z hybrid.

dom

2015?

Mokos23

yeah, the year Back to the Future II is set in.

Moog-Type-S

...and you thought Honda was going to be up to date with the rest of the competiton

2015....this is the pipe dream year for Honda/Acura

fsttyms1

the motor in the fit is to small. Stick the civic motor in the fit and it would probably get much better mileage.

Just give me some nice diesel options.

charliemike

VW will have a 50mpg diesel Jetta here this Fall.

Diesel FTW and no EMF roasting your innards either

biker

Memo to Honda - by that time the "Hybrid" fad will be over and as in Europe folks in NA will buy a diesel (with very little mark up over a gasser) for better mileage.

dom

Your forgetting the 'green' factor in all of this.

It could just as easily be Honda is aiming at low cost hybrids after all. And with the price of diesel going higher many will turn to hybrids IMO. I don't think Honda and Toyota will both be wrong considering the backing their putting behind hybrids.

biker

The article said that the Fit hybrid will command a 2k premium - that's a huge mark up on a 15k car. I'm not saying hybrids won't sell - but the current trend (sales going up 10-20%) will certainly not continue.

dom

http://www.leftlanenews.com/vw-jetta...d-mileage.html

LuvMyTSX

That's unfortunate. I hope the diesel TSX gets better numbers than that.

Gilgamesh

Isn't Diesel way more expensive where you are at?

Its over $1/gal more here.

dom

I think Honda is banking on far more than 10-20% considering their goal of 500K.

LuvMyTSX

Yes, it's more expensive everywhere, but let's say it's 15% more expensive than premium gas (which is what the TSX takes, for example), but the diesel version of the TSX gets 30% better gas mileage than the gas version....depending on the cost of the vehicles, you may still win out with the diesel version, plus you don't have to fill up as often.

Infamous425

the EPA test for diesels is BS. they underrated it by 18%. ask any current jetta tdi owner they are getting well over the EPA "estimates"

LuvMyTSX

Doesn't the 2009 have a new engine, though? It's not on the market yet, is it?

Infamous425

yeah 09 has the new blutec engine, should get around the same mpg as the current tdi. coming out this fall.

my old coworker has a jetta tdi he gets 45 city/55 hwy

dom

Not the same engine. I believe this was the new Blue-tec diesel.

Gilgamesh

I Bluetec a urea injection system, or is it like what is on the American trucks, that have a particulate filter, and the ECU runs the exhaust really hot ever few thousand miles, to burn off the particulates?

If its the latter, the fuel mileage will be nowhere near as good as older diesel variants. That is not to say that estimates will be off, but when the car enters "regen" there is a lot more fuel being burned, and its often enough that is does have a noticeable impact on fuel economy. Regen is done by dumping fuel into the exhaust such that it burns in the filter.

dom

Its urea injection.

Gilgamesh

Thanks dom.

How long is it supposed to last?

Edward'TLS

Even if the older diesel variants have excellent fuel mileage, the pollution they spur out will ruin the environment just the same. They will never get pass the latest emission regulations.

Gilgamesh

I agree. I'd rather have the cleaner diesels anyway. My point was about the fuel economy only.

That said, since the older diesels are...well...older, they won't have to pass new regulations. Cars only have to pass what was in effect when they rolled off the line, correct? The government cannot make a driver take their car/truck off the road, if it was legal when they bought it and has not been modified from factory condition in any way.

For example: A 1989 Camry is probably so filthy by this point that it wouldn't pass new standards, but it does not have to since it still passes the standards that it had to meet to roll off of the line in 1989.