I think I remember hearing it had to be refilled every 2 years or so but don't hold me to that.

Honda's new 2.2L diesel gets around the urea injection and still meets US emissions.

 

Without a DPF, or is that how they got around it?

 

I am not a huge hybrid fan, but you got to give the customers what they want.

 

...and I don't think they're gonna get it...

 

What a DPF ?

 

Diesel Particulate Filter. Its how the American trucks are getting around the new emissions regulations. Filter traps particles, then every so often fuel gets dumped into the exhaust to burn those particles into less harmful ones. No need to put any urea or anything else in the car. But, if you run old diesel fuel, its a new filter as the old one will clog.

 

Honda is using some exotic metal catalytic converter to get around from using the urea tank for it's clean-burn diesel engines. Maybe this converter is using a similar concept as the DPF.

 

there also needs to be acura hybrids just like lexus has a hybrid. i'm betting that infiniti will release a hybrid before acura does.

 

Lexus hybrids are to boost hp, not to promote fuel mileages.

 

For now I think they are going with diesel?

 

yup, you're right about that, but i was just commenting on hybrids.

 

+1

 

That was the plan but I think that the relative failure of the GS450h is bc Lexus also offers the GS460 which has 2 more horsepower & 72 lbs of torque ... all starting at $2,280 less. So fuel economy is something more that the GS450h has to offer ... and only 5 more mpg in the city & 1 more on the highway.

GS 350
$44,150
19/27
303 @ 6200 RPM
274 @ 3600 RPM

GS 460
$52,620
17/24
342 @ 6200 RPM
339 @ 3600 RPM

GS 450h
$54,900
22/25
340 @ 6400 RPM
267 @ 4800 RPM

Maybe if they tuned the 450h down a bit to get less power & more mpg, it would sell more ... ?

 

You sure?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-m...-in-japan.html

 

???^ that article is about Toyota - I'm talking about Honda.

 

If Toyota plans to hit 1 mill I think its a safe bet for Honda to hit 500K.

Bottom line, IMO this Hybrid stragedy is the best news I've heard from Honda is quite some time.

 

The problem I see for Honda is that some of their past strategy might no longer work. In many markets Honda waits till some trend is established and then Honda comes along with an even better product for that market. The problem is that customer's tastes and technology make such a "catch up" strategy a bit iffy these days. If diesels take off and the hybrid fad wanes Honda could be holding the bag with a car that is not so hot anymore. That could definitely happen if we're talking 2015.

 

Honda Reworks Acura into Fuel-Efficient Diesel

By LAWRENCE ULRICH
New York Times

Consumers will have the option of choosing a diesel version of the 2009 Acura TSX.

Honda has spent decades establishing a reputation for fuel efficiency. But nothing in its current lineup, including its Civic Hybrid, can match the mileage of the diesel Accord I recently tested in and around New York City.

Minus its diesel powertrain, the European-market 2007 Accord that I drove is nearly identical to the car that Honda had been selling in the United States as the Acura TSX (in other words, it's smaller than the American Accord). The test car should give a solid indication of the mileage and performance American consumers can expect when Honda offers a diesel option for the redesigned 2009 TSX.

The Accord — a demonstration car provided by Robert Bosch, the German technology company, to highlight its fuel injectors and other diesel components — returned a remarkable 53 miles a gallon on the highway, 34 in the city and 44 in combined driving. Those miles included a bumper-to-bumper crawl through Manhattan, the worst possible conditions for fuel efficiency.

Cleaner emissions system

The model I drove was powered by a 4-cylinder diesel displacing 2.2 liters and producing 140 horsepower and a stout 250 pound-feet of torque — the force that drivers feel pushing them into their seats under acceleration. That huge torque relative to the engine's size is a main advantage of modern turbodiesels, making them well-suited to small economy cars and to burly SUV's that need torque for towing and hauling.

The America-bound Acura will use a new version of the 2.2-liter engine that I tested. The engine is notable for meeting 50-state emissions standards with no need to carry an onboard tank of urea, an ammonia-generating solution that other diesels use to scrub smoggy nitrogen oxides from the exhaust. Honda's patented pollution system generates its own ammonia to fulfill the same mission. While that cleaner emissions system wasn't installed on the Honda I tested, engineers expect it to have no discernible effect on fuel economy.

Advantages over hybrids

As with other diesels I've driven recently, the Honda's frugal highway mileage and versatile power are important advantages over the typical hybrid. The Accord covered the zero-to-60 run in just under 9 seconds in my testing, which doesn't sound spectacular on paper. But its passing power from 30, 50 or even 70 miles an hour was terrific, as the Honda easily shot past slower cars.

And as more hybrid owners are discovering, their cars deliver little or no mileage gain on the highway. That's because battery packs and electric motors add several hundred pounds, and the system also contributes negligible energy at freeway speeds.

Also unlike hybrids, which require drivers to go easy on the gas pedal, watch the speed limit and coast when possible to improve the mileage, the diesel Honda delivered brilliant economy with no special effort. Even spirited driving didn't dent the mileage much. The Accord delivered 50 mpg even during a 75-mph cruise and 40 mpg when I flogged it.

The Acura's only diesel telltale is an idle that's slightly louder than a gasoline car's, though it's not at all obtrusive. There was no trace of diesel smell or black exhaust.

 

Sounds like a good car, its just Diesel is now pushing $5.

 

53 mpg hwy

 

Yea, but don't worry too much, as diesel is much more efficient than gasoline. The TSX at max gets you 35mpg on the hwy, that's not even close to the 53mpg you can get from the diesel. That's 50% difference, if gas is at $4, and diesel is at or below $6, then it will be worth it to have diesel.

 

Diesel ftw. Can't wait to test drive this thing.

 

Sweet

 

If only the new Acuras weren't so damn ugly.

I'd love a TSX i-DTEC.

 

Honda has made a habti of making some visual differences for their hybrids ... perhaps they will do the same for the diesels. Perhaps a new grill? LEDs?

 

Thats a very good point, but the question is can Acura make that clear to the general public?

 

Don't forget that if the diesel engine is more expensive than the gas version you have to figure that in too

 

If? It pretty much a given that it will be.

 

At least 2k IMO.

 

I didn't want to assume

 

VW Jetta TDI falls short of anticipated mileage

leftlanenews

Diesel is gonna be a hard sell at +$5 /gal combined with those mpg #'s.

 

If that's the case, then I think 15k miles a year is going to be the break-even mark for buying a diesel right now ... Less than 15k a year it will take longer than the average American owns a car to break even ... More than 15k and I think you come out ahead.

Or just keep the car for more than 42 months

 

Even worse if the mpg numbers end up like VW.

Diesel may not be the "magic bullet".

 

<--- Not sold on diesel just yet.

No one seems to mention that while diesels are improved, they're still louder than an equivalent gas engine, not as smooth and generally don't perform as well. Its not all perfect on the diesel front.

 

Diesel is fine with me, I think it's more of a powerplant option than a "magic bullet" for fuel savings at the pump.

The only way for this to work is for Honda to deliver north of 50 mpg.
The rise in diesel fuel cost combined with the additional cost for the diesel engine will make this car like a hybrid: Hard to justify the cost.

 

I'd imagine one of the primary reasons why diesel is more expensive here is because it's not very popular yet. I think if more cars use diesel, then oil and gas companies can produce more diesel, so that the difference between diesel and gasoline would be much less.

Didn't that article show the Euro Accord DOES get 53mpg on the hwy, and 44mpg combined in the real world? If that's the case, that's much better than what the TDI managed (35mpg combined).

There aren't that many passenger cars with diesel engines thus far in North America. Even though as of now, most diesel engines are not as smooth or as quiet as gasoline engines, but the difference is already very small, European car makers are especially good at this. I think one would complain about the sound quality rather than the quietness/harshness of a diesel engine. As in, a BMW 535d might not sound as exciting as a 535i in engine note.

I think it's good that Honda is working on many power plant choices: gasoline, diesel, fuel cell, and hybrid.

 

The EPA numbers are not representative of real world MPG for diesel models historically.


Check out fueleconomy.gov for better indications.

For example, the user-reported average for an 06 TDI Jetta on that site is 42 with individual reports as high as 54, while the EPA estimate in combined driving is 33.

 

Supposedly, and I read this article on CNN Business or whatever so it's probably slightly more accurate than if it was fabricated by a chimp on a computer, there are two main refining processes and one is done primarily in the US and the other in Europe. One leads to more diesel and the other more gas.

We've been buying Europe's surplus gas reserves for a while because they use far more diesel than gasoline. I guess they use more heating oil over there too which is why they use the cracking method (IIRC).

Anyway, our current refineries are not able to cope with more diesel demand. As more diesel cars go on the highway, diesel prices are going to get much worse unless new refineries are brought online or we buy more diesel from foreign markets. Don't count on biodiesel either. Unless you want to pay $11 for a gallon of milk because corn feed for dairy cows has gone up 1000%

The whole process is very complex and that makes it easier to obfuscate on the part of the oil companies.

ExxonMobil has a networked system that keeps an eye on the local retailer's prices so that if the retailer raises retail prices ExxonMobil will just raise the wholesale price by the same amount. And ExxonMobil is raising some land leases by 10% a year (source: Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews)

Add on to that rampant oil speculation and the world is getting fucked and there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

Rep Maxine "I'm batshit crazy" Waters wants to nationalize the gasoline business. They should look at the oligopoly in the fuel market and stop taking money from ExxonMobil and the other oil companies first and then maybe I'll start taking Congress seriously. This 40mpg CAFE thing isn't going to go anywhere when oil companies do everything they can to suppress alternative fuels. And true alternatives not the bullshit biodiesel/ethanol debacle that is sending corn prices (and everything that uses corn in some way) through the fucking roof.

There's so much hypocrisy at every level of this thing ... And when you hear that our "big" oil reserves only have about two years of proven oil in the ground ... I'm not really hopeful.

 

She's a true Marxist if I ever saw one.

 

If MB can keep the diesel premium at 1K for the E-class I have to assume Honda can do the same or better.

The thing that came out of the hearings with the oil execs in Congress the other day is that they are making no money (and sometimes losing money) refining gas yet they profit 25 cent/gal refining diesel. That's one of the main reasons for such a wide spread between gas and diesel prices. All things being equal it probably costs about the same to refine a gal of premium and a gal of diesel.

As was pointed out the issue will be refining capacity for diesel - if the US changes to anything approaching EU car buying habits, diesel will go through the roof from demand.