Honda: Development and Technology News
05-22-2008, 03:34 PM
#721
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Gilgamesh
Thanks dom.
How long is it supposed to last?
How long is it supposed to last?
I think I remember hearing it had to be refilled every 2 years or so but don't hold me to that.
Honda's new 2.2L diesel gets around the urea injection and still meets US emissions.
05-22-2008, 03:49 PM
#722
Safety Car
Originally Posted by dom
I think I remember hearing it had to be refilled every 2 years or so but don't hold me to that.
Honda's new 2.2L diesel gets around the urea injection and still meets US emissions.
Honda's new 2.2L diesel gets around the urea injection and still meets US emissions.
Without a DPF, or is that how they got around it?
05-22-2008, 05:07 PM
#724
Race Director
Originally Posted by dom
I think Honda is banking on far more than 10-20% considering their goal of 500K.
05-22-2008, 05:28 PM
#725
2G TLX-S
Originally Posted by Gilgamesh
Without a DPF, or is that how they got around it?
05-22-2008, 05:44 PM
#726
Safety Car
Diesel Particulate Filter. Its how the American trucks are getting around the new emissions regulations. Filter traps particles, then every so often fuel gets dumped into the exhaust to burn those particles into less harmful ones. No need to put any urea or anything else in the car. But, if you run old diesel fuel, its a new filter as the old one will clog.
05-22-2008, 06:37 PM
#727
2G TLX-S
Honda is using some exotic metal catalytic converter to get around from using the urea tank for it's clean-burn diesel engines. Maybe this converter is using a similar concept as the DPF.
05-22-2008, 07:10 PM
#729
2G TLX-S
Lexus hybrids are to boost hp, not to promote fuel mileages.
05-22-2008, 07:27 PM
#730
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
Received 834 Likes
on
518 Posts
Originally Posted by Mokos23
there also needs to be acura hybrids just like lexus has a hybrid. i'm betting that infiniti will release a hybrid before acura does.
05-23-2008, 06:17 AM
#733
Safety Car
G S
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Lexus hybrids are to boost hp, not to promote fuel mileages.
GS 350
$44,150
19/27
303 @ 6200 RPM
274 @ 3600 RPM
GS 460
$52,620
17/24
342 @ 6200 RPM
339 @ 3600 RPM
GS 450h
$54,900
22/25
340 @ 6400 RPM
267 @ 4800 RPM
Maybe if they tuned the 450h down a bit to get less power & more mpg, it would sell more ... ?$44,150
19/27
303 @ 6200 RPM
274 @ 3600 RPM
GS 460
$52,620
17/24
342 @ 6200 RPM
339 @ 3600 RPM
GS 450h
$54,900
22/25
340 @ 6400 RPM
267 @ 4800 RPM
05-23-2008, 11:10 AM
#734
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by biker
...and I don't think they're gonna get it...
You sure?
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-m...-in-japan.html
Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, is planning to build two manufacturing plants in a partnership with consumer electronics giant Matsushita. The plants will build batteries for hybrid vehicles and other environmentally-friendly cars, upping total production to 1 million annually by 2011. The plants will be built by Panasonic EV Energy Co., a joint venture of the two companies and, along with an upgrade in an existing facility, are reported to cost 70 billion yen (about $685 million).
The plan calls for a new nickel-metal hydride plant costing close to 30 billion yen built in Taiwa, Miyagi Prefecture, that would start operations in 2011, as per Automotive News. The output would be 300,000 batteries per year. A 10 billion yen plant that would build lithium-ion batteries would be added to an existing facility in Kosai, Shizuoka, along with the remaining 30 million used for boosting output of nickel-metal hydride batteries at the same facility. The measures would double last year's Panasonic EV battery production of 500,000 units.
Unlike other manufacturers, which seem to be backing the lithium-ion battery technology, Toyota is hedging its bets, sticking to its proven nickel tech, as used in the current Prius. The next-gen Prius will also likely use the older-style batteries, while its Lexus counterpart is expected to switch to lithium-ion cells.
The plan calls for a new nickel-metal hydride plant costing close to 30 billion yen built in Taiwa, Miyagi Prefecture, that would start operations in 2011, as per Automotive News. The output would be 300,000 batteries per year. A 10 billion yen plant that would build lithium-ion batteries would be added to an existing facility in Kosai, Shizuoka, along with the remaining 30 million used for boosting output of nickel-metal hydride batteries at the same facility. The measures would double last year's Panasonic EV battery production of 500,000 units.
Unlike other manufacturers, which seem to be backing the lithium-ion battery technology, Toyota is hedging its bets, sticking to its proven nickel tech, as used in the current Prius. The next-gen Prius will also likely use the older-style batteries, while its Lexus counterpart is expected to switch to lithium-ion cells.
05-23-2008, 01:06 PM
#736
Senior Moderator
If Toyota plans to hit 1 mill I think its a safe bet for Honda to hit 500K.
Bottom line, IMO this Hybrid stragedy is the best news I've heard from Honda is quite some time.
Bottom line, IMO this Hybrid stragedy is the best news I've heard from Honda is quite some time.
05-24-2008, 01:24 AM
#737
Race Director
The problem I see for Honda is that some of their past strategy might no longer work. In many markets Honda waits till some trend is established and then Honda comes along with an even better product for that market. The problem is that customer's tastes and technology make such a "catch up" strategy a bit iffy these days. If diesels take off and the hybrid fad wanes Honda could be holding the bag with a car that is not so hot anymore. That could definitely happen if we're talking 2015.
05-27-2008, 11:44 AM
#738
Safety Car
Article
Honda Reworks Acura into Fuel-Efficient Diesel
By LAWRENCE ULRICH
New York Times
Consumers will have the option of choosing a diesel version of the 2009 Acura TSX.
Honda has spent decades establishing a reputation for fuel efficiency. But nothing in its current lineup, including its Civic Hybrid, can match the mileage of the diesel Accord I recently tested in and around New York City.
Minus its diesel powertrain, the European-market 2007 Accord that I drove is nearly identical to the car that Honda had been selling in the United States as the Acura TSX (in other words, it's smaller than the American Accord). The test car should give a solid indication of the mileage and performance American consumers can expect when Honda offers a diesel option for the redesigned 2009 TSX.
The Accord — a demonstration car provided by Robert Bosch, the German technology company, to highlight its fuel injectors and other diesel components — returned a remarkable 53 miles a gallon on the highway, 34 in the city and 44 in combined driving. Those miles included a bumper-to-bumper crawl through Manhattan, the worst possible conditions for fuel efficiency.
Cleaner emissions system
The model I drove was powered by a 4-cylinder diesel displacing 2.2 liters and producing 140 horsepower and a stout 250 pound-feet of torque — the force that drivers feel pushing them into their seats under acceleration. That huge torque relative to the engine's size is a main advantage of modern turbodiesels, making them well-suited to small economy cars and to burly SUV's that need torque for towing and hauling.
The America-bound Acura will use a new version of the 2.2-liter engine that I tested. The engine is notable for meeting 50-state emissions standards with no need to carry an onboard tank of urea, an ammonia-generating solution that other diesels use to scrub smoggy nitrogen oxides from the exhaust. Honda's patented pollution system generates its own ammonia to fulfill the same mission. While that cleaner emissions system wasn't installed on the Honda I tested, engineers expect it to have no discernible effect on fuel economy.
Advantages over hybrids
As with other diesels I've driven recently, the Honda's frugal highway mileage and versatile power are important advantages over the typical hybrid. The Accord covered the zero-to-60 run in just under 9 seconds in my testing, which doesn't sound spectacular on paper. But its passing power from 30, 50 or even 70 miles an hour was terrific, as the Honda easily shot past slower cars.
And as more hybrid owners are discovering, their cars deliver little or no mileage gain on the highway. That's because battery packs and electric motors add several hundred pounds, and the system also contributes negligible energy at freeway speeds.
Also unlike hybrids, which require drivers to go easy on the gas pedal, watch the speed limit and coast when possible to improve the mileage, the diesel Honda delivered brilliant economy with no special effort. Even spirited driving didn't dent the mileage much. The Accord delivered 50 mpg even during a 75-mph cruise and 40 mpg when I flogged it.
The Acura's only diesel telltale is an idle that's slightly louder than a gasoline car's, though it's not at all obtrusive. There was no trace of diesel smell or black exhaust.
By LAWRENCE ULRICH
New York Times
Consumers will have the option of choosing a diesel version of the 2009 Acura TSX.
Honda has spent decades establishing a reputation for fuel efficiency. But nothing in its current lineup, including its Civic Hybrid, can match the mileage of the diesel Accord I recently tested in and around New York City.
Minus its diesel powertrain, the European-market 2007 Accord that I drove is nearly identical to the car that Honda had been selling in the United States as the Acura TSX (in other words, it's smaller than the American Accord). The test car should give a solid indication of the mileage and performance American consumers can expect when Honda offers a diesel option for the redesigned 2009 TSX.
The Accord — a demonstration car provided by Robert Bosch, the German technology company, to highlight its fuel injectors and other diesel components — returned a remarkable 53 miles a gallon on the highway, 34 in the city and 44 in combined driving. Those miles included a bumper-to-bumper crawl through Manhattan, the worst possible conditions for fuel efficiency.
Cleaner emissions system
The model I drove was powered by a 4-cylinder diesel displacing 2.2 liters and producing 140 horsepower and a stout 250 pound-feet of torque — the force that drivers feel pushing them into their seats under acceleration. That huge torque relative to the engine's size is a main advantage of modern turbodiesels, making them well-suited to small economy cars and to burly SUV's that need torque for towing and hauling.
The America-bound Acura will use a new version of the 2.2-liter engine that I tested. The engine is notable for meeting 50-state emissions standards with no need to carry an onboard tank of urea, an ammonia-generating solution that other diesels use to scrub smoggy nitrogen oxides from the exhaust. Honda's patented pollution system generates its own ammonia to fulfill the same mission. While that cleaner emissions system wasn't installed on the Honda I tested, engineers expect it to have no discernible effect on fuel economy.
Advantages over hybrids
As with other diesels I've driven recently, the Honda's frugal highway mileage and versatile power are important advantages over the typical hybrid. The Accord covered the zero-to-60 run in just under 9 seconds in my testing, which doesn't sound spectacular on paper. But its passing power from 30, 50 or even 70 miles an hour was terrific, as the Honda easily shot past slower cars.
And as more hybrid owners are discovering, their cars deliver little or no mileage gain on the highway. That's because battery packs and electric motors add several hundred pounds, and the system also contributes negligible energy at freeway speeds.
Also unlike hybrids, which require drivers to go easy on the gas pedal, watch the speed limit and coast when possible to improve the mileage, the diesel Honda delivered brilliant economy with no special effort. Even spirited driving didn't dent the mileage much. The Accord delivered 50 mpg even during a 75-mph cruise and 40 mpg when I flogged it.
The Acura's only diesel telltale is an idle that's slightly louder than a gasoline car's, though it's not at all obtrusive. There was no trace of diesel smell or black exhaust.
05-27-2008, 11:52 AM
#740
The sizzle in the Steak
53 mpg hwy 
05-27-2008, 12:10 PM
#741
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
Received 834 Likes
on
518 Posts
Originally Posted by Trackruner228
Sounds like a good car, its just Diesel is now pushing $5.
05-27-2008, 12:52 PM
#743
Senior Moderator
Sweet
05-27-2008, 01:19 PM
#745
Safety Car
Appearance
Originally Posted by charliemike
If only the new Acuras weren't so damn ugly.
I'd love a TSX i-DTEC.
I'd love a TSX i-DTEC.
05-27-2008, 01:29 PM
#746
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Charlotte(home) /Raleigh (school), NC
Age: 35
Posts: 11,395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by iforyou
Yea, but don't worry too much, as diesel is much more efficient than gasoline. The TSX at max gets you 35mpg on the hwy, that's not even close to the 53mpg you can get from the diesel. That's 50% difference, if gas is at $4, and diesel is at or below $6, then it will be worth it to have diesel.
05-27-2008, 01:38 PM
#747
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Trackruner228
Thats a very good point, but the question is can Acura make that clear to the general public?
05-27-2008, 01:39 PM
#748
The sizzle in the Steak
Originally Posted by charliemike
Don't forget that if the diesel engine is more expensive than the gas version you have to figure that in too
05-27-2008, 01:44 PM
#751
The sizzle in the Steak
If Honda diesel mpg turns out like VW diesel mpg...........
VW Jetta TDI falls short of anticipated mileage
leftlanenews
Diesel is gonna be a hard sell at +$5 /gal combined with those mpg #'s.
The U.S. EPA has released official fuel economy numbers for the Volkswagen Jetta TDI, which is a new entrant to the U.S. market for 2009. The car manages some very respectable numbers, but falls significantly short of Volkswagen's predictions for mileage.
Earlier this year, Volkswagen said the TDI Jetta would deliver highway economy in the 50s and city milage in 40s. Some reports out of VW even indicated the car might be able to hit 60 mpg on the highway. But according to the new data released by the EPA, the TDI delivers 30 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the highway.
The high cost of diesel fuel doesn't help the Jetta TDI's case either. With gas at $3.79 per gallon and diesel at $4.50, the latter is 19 percent more expensive. That means penny-for-penny, the TDI is equivalent to a gas car that delivers 33.6 mpg on the highway and 25.2 mpg in the city.
It's possible the EPA has changed its testing methods even more drastically than expected, or perhaps VW will demand a recount, so we'll keep you posted as this story develops.
Earlier this year, Volkswagen said the TDI Jetta would deliver highway economy in the 50s and city milage in 40s. Some reports out of VW even indicated the car might be able to hit 60 mpg on the highway. But according to the new data released by the EPA, the TDI delivers 30 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the highway.
The high cost of diesel fuel doesn't help the Jetta TDI's case either. With gas at $3.79 per gallon and diesel at $4.50, the latter is 19 percent more expensive. That means penny-for-penny, the TDI is equivalent to a gas car that delivers 33.6 mpg on the highway and 25.2 mpg in the city.
It's possible the EPA has changed its testing methods even more drastically than expected, or perhaps VW will demand a recount, so we'll keep you posted as this story develops.
Diesel is gonna be a hard sell at +$5 /gal combined with those mpg #'s.
05-27-2008, 01:45 PM
#752
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by dom
At least 2k IMO.
Or just keep the car for more than 42 months
05-27-2008, 01:46 PM
#753
The sizzle in the Steak
Originally Posted by charliemike
If that's the case, then I think 15k miles a year is going to be the break-even mark for buying a diesel right now ... Less than 15k a year it will take longer than the average American owns a car to break even ... More than 15k and I think you come out ahead.
Or just keep the car for more than 42 months
Or just keep the car for more than 42 months
Diesel may not be the "magic bullet".
05-27-2008, 01:52 PM
#754
Senior Moderator
<--- Not sold on diesel just yet.
No one seems to mention that while diesels are improved, they're still louder than an equivalent gas engine, not as smooth and generally don't perform as well. Its not all perfect on the diesel front.
No one seems to mention that while diesels are improved, they're still louder than an equivalent gas engine, not as smooth and generally don't perform as well. Its not all perfect on the diesel front.
05-27-2008, 02:08 PM
#755
The sizzle in the Steak
Diesel is fine with me, I think it's more of a powerplant option than a "magic bullet" for fuel savings at the pump.
The only way for this to work is for Honda to deliver north of 50 mpg.
The rise in diesel fuel cost combined with the additional cost for the diesel engine will make this car like a hybrid: Hard to justify the cost.
The only way for this to work is for Honda to deliver north of 50 mpg.
The rise in diesel fuel cost combined with the additional cost for the diesel engine will make this car like a hybrid: Hard to justify the cost.
05-27-2008, 04:16 PM
#756
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
Received 834 Likes
on
518 Posts
I'd imagine one of the primary reasons why diesel is more expensive here is because it's not very popular yet. I think if more cars use diesel, then oil and gas companies can produce more diesel, so that the difference between diesel and gasoline would be much less.
Didn't that article show the Euro Accord DOES get 53mpg on the hwy, and 44mpg combined in the real world? If that's the case, that's much better than what the TDI managed (35mpg combined).
There aren't that many passenger cars with diesel engines thus far in North America. Even though as of now, most diesel engines are not as smooth or as quiet as gasoline engines, but the difference is already very small, European car makers are especially good at this. I think one would complain about the sound quality rather than the quietness/harshness of a diesel engine. As in, a BMW 535d might not sound as exciting as a 535i in engine note.
I think it's good that Honda is working on many power plant choices: gasoline, diesel, fuel cell, and hybrid.
Didn't that article show the Euro Accord DOES get 53mpg on the hwy, and 44mpg combined in the real world? If that's the case, that's much better than what the TDI managed (35mpg combined).
There aren't that many passenger cars with diesel engines thus far in North America. Even though as of now, most diesel engines are not as smooth or as quiet as gasoline engines, but the difference is already very small, European car makers are especially good at this. I think one would complain about the sound quality rather than the quietness/harshness of a diesel engine. As in, a BMW 535d might not sound as exciting as a 535i in engine note.
I think it's good that Honda is working on many power plant choices: gasoline, diesel, fuel cell, and hybrid.
05-27-2008, 04:21 PM
#757
is Pretty Much a Moron
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Rochester, NY
Age: 37
Posts: 8,140
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
The EPA numbers are not representative of real world MPG for diesel models historically.
Check out fueleconomy.gov for better indications.
For example, the user-reported average for an 06 TDI Jetta on that site is 42 with individual reports as high as 54, while the EPA estimate in combined driving is 33.
Check out fueleconomy.gov for better indications.
For example, the user-reported average for an 06 TDI Jetta on that site is 42 with individual reports as high as 54, while the EPA estimate in combined driving is 33.
Last edited by TypeSAddict; 05-27-2008 at 04:25 PM.
05-27-2008, 05:04 PM
#758
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by iforyou
I'd imagine one of the primary reasons why diesel is more expensive here is because it's not very popular yet. I think if more cars use diesel, then oil and gas companies can produce more diesel, so that the difference between diesel and gasoline would be much less.
We've been buying Europe's surplus gas reserves for a while because they use far more diesel than gasoline. I guess they use more heating oil over there too which is why they use the cracking method (IIRC).
Anyway, our current refineries are not able to cope with more diesel demand. As more diesel cars go on the highway, diesel prices are going to get much worse unless new refineries are brought online or we buy more diesel from foreign markets. Don't count on biodiesel either. Unless you want to pay $11 for a gallon of milk because corn feed for dairy cows has gone up 1000%
The whole process is very complex and that makes it easier to obfuscate on the part of the oil companies.
ExxonMobil has a networked system that keeps an eye on the local retailer's prices so that if the retailer raises retail prices ExxonMobil will just raise the wholesale price by the same amount. And ExxonMobil is raising some land leases by 10% a year (source: Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews)
Add on to that rampant oil speculation and the world is getting fucked and there's not a whole lot we can do about it.
Rep Maxine "I'm batshit crazy" Waters wants to nationalize the gasoline business. They should look at the oligopoly in the fuel market and stop taking money from ExxonMobil and the other oil companies first and then maybe I'll start taking Congress seriously. This 40mpg CAFE thing isn't going to go anywhere when oil companies do everything they can to suppress alternative fuels. And true alternatives not the bullshit biodiesel/ethanol debacle that is sending corn prices (and everything that uses corn in some way) through the fucking roof.
There's so much hypocrisy at every level of this thing ... And when you hear that our "big" oil reserves only have about two years of proven oil in the ground ... I'm not really hopeful.
05-27-2008, 05:11 PM
#759
The sizzle in the Steak
Originally Posted by charliemike
Rep Maxine "I'm batshit crazy" Waters wants to nationalize the gasoline business.
05-28-2008, 02:59 AM
#760
Race Director
Originally Posted by dom
At least 2k IMO.
The thing that came out of the hearings with the oil execs in Congress the other day is that they are making no money (and sometimes losing money) refining gas yet they profit 25 cent/gal refining diesel. That's one of the main reasons for such a wide spread between gas and diesel prices. All things being equal it probably costs about the same to refine a gal of premium and a gal of diesel.
As was pointed out the issue will be refining capacity for diesel - if the US changes to anything approaching EU car buying habits, diesel will go through the roof from demand.
