Acura: ZDX News
10-11-2009, 05:07 PM
#1321
Three Wheelin'
Yes, but when Lexus became the top-selling brand in America back in the 1990s it had just as many SUV models as sedans. I guess the moral of the story is, "be profitable now and 'complete' later."
10-11-2009, 07:20 PM
#1322
Burning Brakes
The problem here is that all of those cars are RWD or have AWD as an option, a six-speed auto, and ample power. None of Acura's current cars have even six-gears, while the competition is moving onto 7-speed gearboxes, and only recently has the TSX received a V6 - while the I4 model is notably underpowered, and it still lacks an AWD option even on the more powerful V6. You might say that the non-enthusiast won't notice the benefits of AWD, but many of these customers look at AWD as a safety measure in regions that see snow. They'll look at the TSX and realize that there is no AWD option, and decide to look elsewhere. They're not likely to cross-shop the TL either, since it's seated firmly in the mid-size sedan category. Most enthusiasts will look at the TSX and decide to look somewhere else due to lack of RWD, even though the TSX might actually have better handling.
As for the RL, the current TL makes it somewhat redundant. Considering that the TL now comes with AWD and essentially, an engine identical to the RL, there's little incentive for shoppers to pay a premium for the same features.
And finally, regarding their SUVs/CUVs, these are the only cars that Acura has done right. But they still occupy a fairly niche market (probably partially due to the perception that SUVs are gas-guzzlers) and we're still waiting to see how the ZDX stacks up against the competition.
Oh, and they really need to start dropping their six-speed auto into more cars. It would give enthusiasts a reason to take another look at their cars, and non-enthusiasts to benefit from improved fuel consumption.
Last edited by knavinusa; 10-11-2009 at 07:23 PM.
10-11-2009, 07:52 PM
#1323
Three Wheelin'
If I'm not mistaken, Lexus had 3 lines of SUVs before they released the IS. So they managed to do well without a compact sedan or an NSX-style sports car. Lexus created the IS solely to draw younger male customers, but it was after placating soccer moms first.
Car enthusiasts are a minority of car buyers, and most of them are loyal to German cars. Japanese luxury brands must appeal to female customers first, since most Lexuses (and I'm assuming Acuras) are either bought by women or men who are part of a couple where the woman has substantial input.
And isn't it amazing that Audi has a "full" lineup, yet they sell fewer cars in America than Acura?
Car enthusiasts are a minority of car buyers, and most of them are loyal to German cars. Japanese luxury brands must appeal to female customers first, since most Lexuses (and I'm assuming Acuras) are either bought by women or men who are part of a couple where the woman has substantial input.
And isn't it amazing that Audi has a "full" lineup, yet they sell fewer cars in America than Acura?
10-11-2009, 07:59 PM
#1324
Burning Brakes
Not really. Audi faced bad press in the 90's due to that whole unintended acceleration incident, (something about how the gas and brake pedals were placed very close together for easy heel-and-toe maneouvres) not unlike what is happening to Toyota right now. Also, realize that the large majority of cars sold are part of the entry and mid-level market. Although they have a full lineup it does little for its sales numbers - the flagship cars are purely for prestige.
10-11-2009, 08:29 PM
#1325
Three Wheelin'
If the flagship car is purely for prestige and it hasn't lifted the perception of the Audi brand, why even have it? Why not do like Infiniti and drop the full-sized flagship? I don't think a flagship or a sports car would help Acura at this time, with the economy being what it is.
10-11-2009, 09:40 PM
#1326
Burning Brakes
On the contrary, the perception of the brand has improved considerably in recent times. After all, the A4 is a hot item right now. Not to mention Audi (arguably) doesn't have a single ugly car in the whole lineup.
I'd argue that Infiniti's M45 is a reasonable flagship replacement. The length of the car sits in-between BMW's 5 and 7 series.
But I agree completely that Acura does not need a flagship car right now. What they need is a design refresh - even after an entire year their designs remain largely controversial. People embraced BMW's "bangle-butt" and Audi's giant front grille after a short time, but even this Acura enthusiast forum has trouble looking past the grille, and I'd say enthusiasts tend to be the most forgiving when it comes to car designs, as long as the performance makes up for it. This is not the case as of yet, although the 6MT TL does seem to be growing in popularity.
Acura's other hot-seller is the TSX. The I4 does fine, but the V6 encroaches on the FWD TL, as well as competitors like the G37, 328i, IS250 and A4. I don't think most people are willing to pay that much for a car that's suggested to be a near-entry-level luxury car at best. Acura priced the I4 TSX competitively, well below the entry-level segment with a good number of entry-level features.
So, that makes for a total of two sedans that are supposed to appeal to most shoppers, and perhaps three SUVs: RDX and MDX as well as the future ZDX. MB has the B, C, E, SLK, CLK, GLK, ML and R; BMW has their 1, 3, Z, 5, 6, X3, X5 and X6, as well as Audi with the A3, TT, A4, A5, A6, Q5 and Q7 all priced nicely below their flagships. I'd say Acura could see some benefits in re-evaluating their lineup.
I'd argue that Infiniti's M45 is a reasonable flagship replacement. The length of the car sits in-between BMW's 5 and 7 series.
But I agree completely that Acura does not need a flagship car right now. What they need is a design refresh - even after an entire year their designs remain largely controversial. People embraced BMW's "bangle-butt" and Audi's giant front grille after a short time, but even this Acura enthusiast forum has trouble looking past the grille, and I'd say enthusiasts tend to be the most forgiving when it comes to car designs, as long as the performance makes up for it. This is not the case as of yet, although the 6MT TL does seem to be growing in popularity.
Acura's other hot-seller is the TSX. The I4 does fine, but the V6 encroaches on the FWD TL, as well as competitors like the G37, 328i, IS250 and A4. I don't think most people are willing to pay that much for a car that's suggested to be a near-entry-level luxury car at best. Acura priced the I4 TSX competitively, well below the entry-level segment with a good number of entry-level features.
So, that makes for a total of two sedans that are supposed to appeal to most shoppers, and perhaps three SUVs: RDX and MDX as well as the future ZDX. MB has the B, C, E, SLK, CLK, GLK, ML and R; BMW has their 1, 3, Z, 5, 6, X3, X5 and X6, as well as Audi with the A3, TT, A4, A5, A6, Q5 and Q7 all priced nicely below their flagships. I'd say Acura could see some benefits in re-evaluating their lineup.
10-12-2009, 12:15 AM
#1327
Honda/Acura's core philosophy is conservative - they will strategically design for best value while milking powertrain and technologies to the max and extending range to the least number of segments possible. They could care less about the flagship or top tier buzz. For Acura (and Honda), show them a reliably profitable segment and they will carve a niche within it. Their goal is not to compete toe-to-toe with MB, BMW or Audi - they will give em a run for their $$$ in some segments though.
10-12-2009, 12:54 AM
#1328
Burning Brakes
Oh, I completely agree that is indeed Acura's strategy, but neither the new TSX nor the TL seem to be selling nearly as well as their competitors. Also, the current TSX doesn't offer much more value than comparably priced cars like the 3-series, C-class and A3/A4. It doesn't even have a leather/leatherette interior - only cloth seats.
TSX's sold in the US, only come with leather. Canada has a base model that has cloth...in addition to the leather equipped Premium and Tech.
10-12-2009, 01:22 AM
#1330
Burning Brakes
Wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the correction. 
Still, when I was shopping for a car, there didn't seem to be anything the TSX offered that would've convinced me to buy it over the competition. The premium model was priced more than a C250, but the only thing that MB didn't offer were HIDs, and the sunroof was an option.
Still, when I was shopping for a car, there didn't seem to be anything the TSX offered that would've convinced me to buy it over the competition. The premium model was priced more than a C250, but the only thing that MB didn't offer were HIDs, and the sunroof was an option.
10-12-2009, 03:24 PM
#1331
Honda/Acura's core philosophy is conservative - they will strategically design for best value while milking powertrain and technologies to the max and extending range to the least number of segments possible. They could care less about the flagship or top tier buzz. For Acura (and Honda), show them a reliably profitable segment and they will carve a niche within it. Their goal is not to compete toe-to-toe with MB, BMW or Audi - they will give em a run for their $$$ in some segments though.
10-12-2009, 03:38 PM
#1332
Three Wheelin'
Are Acura's sales down because of the grill or because we are in a global economic downturn which is affecting nearly every luxury brand in the U.S.? Only time will tell.
10-12-2009, 04:12 PM
#1333
Honda Fanboy
Pretty low sales outlook. Looks like their expecting this to be another RL/RDX type vehicle. We'll see if it even meets the already low sales forecast. It's a decent looking $50K luxury vehicle, but the low level of practicality may hurt sales. I've read that the X6's back seat (which is tight for the class) is bigger than the ZDX's.
10-12-2009, 04:19 PM
#1334
Re: Slow Sales
Plenty of debate about this ... dunno. However in bad times, brand loyalty may be a better indicator. It will be interesting to see some stats on this.
Nonetheless, this ZDX has a certain 'cool' potential - only if the front was more appealing. It is certainly priced well for its niche.
Plenty of debate about this ... dunno. However in bad times, brand loyalty may be a better indicator. It will be interesting to see some stats on this.
Nonetheless, this ZDX has a certain 'cool' potential - only if the front was more appealing. It is certainly priced well for its niche.
Last edited by pokin; 10-12-2009 at 04:21 PM.
10-12-2009, 05:28 PM
#1335
Three Wheelin'
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class=midsize luxury crossovers
The question really is does this SUV have a point. It's not going to help sales, and will likely be another dog in the lineup (see:RL). It may help profits, since its evident not many development dollars went into it, but still is it worth all the marketing, if it's only for couples that just so happen to want a CUV instead of a regular coupe or sedan?
I say no. This vehicle would be more interesting if it provided things that the X6 didn't (usability), while still maintaining the styling look. It would have been even more interesting if it had a bigger engine, versus it just being a slightly reshaped more expensive less practical MDX. But alas it has none of these things, and it's actually less usable than the X6 (which is what I pointed out originally).
The question really is does this SUV have a point. It's not going to help sales, and will likely be another dog in the lineup (see:RL). It may help profits, since its evident not many development dollars went into it, but still is it worth all the marketing, if it's only for couples that just so happen to want a CUV instead of a regular coupe or sedan?
I say no. This vehicle would be more interesting if it provided things that the X6 didn't (usability), while still maintaining the styling look. It would have been even more interesting if it had a bigger engine, versus it just being a slightly reshaped more expensive less practical MDX. But alas it has none of these things, and it's actually less usable than the X6 (which is what I pointed out originally).
10-12-2009, 07:34 PM
#1336
10-12-2009, 09:43 PM
#1337
Three Wheelin'
The ZDX does provide something the X6 doesn't: lower purchase price. Also it has a glass roof and ample technology for an estimated cost closer to a similarly equipped Infiniti FX or Lexus RX.
Before you can have brand loyalty, you must first build brand recognition. People generally don't recognize Acura. For example, a close friend of mine swears my Acura RL is a Lexus, even though I've had the car for over 4 years! Having a grill that is controversial at least gives Acura a unique look that differentiates it from Honda and other Japanese brands.
The ZDX probably would have sold much better if it had been released 3 years ago. In fact, I would argue that the ZDX should have come before the RL (not that Acura had any say in that). Will the ZDX be a large seller? Of course not. I'll be surprised if it meets its 6,000 unit sales goal. But it does extend the global truck platform that is shared with the MDX, Honda Pilot, etc. It ZDX further utilizes the Canadian manufacturing plant where the MDX is also built, which helps people to stay employed. And it shows that Acura is willing to take a style that is different from the more mainstream Honda.
Before you can have brand loyalty, you must first build brand recognition. People generally don't recognize Acura. For example, a close friend of mine swears my Acura RL is a Lexus, even though I've had the car for over 4 years! Having a grill that is controversial at least gives Acura a unique look that differentiates it from Honda and other Japanese brands.
The ZDX probably would have sold much better if it had been released 3 years ago. In fact, I would argue that the ZDX should have come before the RL (not that Acura had any say in that). Will the ZDX be a large seller? Of course not. I'll be surprised if it meets its 6,000 unit sales goal. But it does extend the global truck platform that is shared with the MDX, Honda Pilot, etc. It ZDX further utilizes the Canadian manufacturing plant where the MDX is also built, which helps people to stay employed. And it shows that Acura is willing to take a style that is different from the more mainstream Honda.
10-12-2009, 09:43 PM
#1338
Three Wheelin'
The ZDX does provide something the X6 doesn't: lower purchase price. Also it has a glass roof and ample technology for an estimated cost closer to a similarly equipped Infiniti FX or Lexus RX.
Before you can have brand loyalty, you must first build brand recognition. People generally don't recognize Acura. For example, a close friend of mine swears my Acura RL is a Lexus, even though I've had the car for over 4 years! Having a grill that is controversial at least gives Acura a unique look that differentiates it from Honda and other Japanese brands.
The ZDX probably would have sold much better if it had been released 3 years ago. In fact, I would argue that the ZDX should have come before the RL (not that Acura had any say in that). Will the ZDX be a large seller? Of course not. I'll be surprised if it meets its 6,000 unit sales goal. But it does extend the global truck platform that is shared with the MDX, Honda Pilot, etc. It ZDX further utilizes the Canadian manufacturing plant where the MDX is also built, which helps people to stay employed. And it shows that Acura is willing to take a style that is different from the more mainstream Honda.
Before you can have brand loyalty, you must first build brand recognition. People generally don't recognize Acura. For example, a close friend of mine swears my Acura RL is a Lexus, even though I've had the car for over 4 years! Having a grill that is controversial at least gives Acura a unique look that differentiates it from Honda and other Japanese brands.
The ZDX probably would have sold much better if it had been released 3 years ago. In fact, I would argue that the ZDX should have come before the RL (not that Acura had any say in that). Will the ZDX be a large seller? Of course not. I'll be surprised if it meets its 6,000 unit sales goal. But it does extend the global truck platform that is shared with the MDX, Honda Pilot, etc. It ZDX further utilizes the Canadian manufacturing plant where the MDX is also built, which helps people to stay employed. And it shows that Acura is willing to take a style that is different from the more mainstream Honda.
10-12-2009, 10:11 PM
#1339
Honda Fanboy
class=midsize luxury crossovers
The question really is does this SUV have a point. It's not going to help sales, and will likely be another dog in the lineup (see:RL). It may help profits, since its evident not many development dollars went into it, but still is it worth all the marketing, if it's only for couples that just so happen to want a CUV instead of a regular coupe or sedan?
I say no. This vehicle would be more interesting if it provided things that the X6 didn't (usability), while still maintaining the styling look. It would have been even more interesting if it had a bigger engine, versus it just being a slightly reshaped more expensive less practical MDX. But alas it has none of these things, and it's actually less usable than the X6 (which is what I pointed out originally).
The question really is does this SUV have a point. It's not going to help sales, and will likely be another dog in the lineup (see:RL). It may help profits, since its evident not many development dollars went into it, but still is it worth all the marketing, if it's only for couples that just so happen to want a CUV instead of a regular coupe or sedan?
I say no. This vehicle would be more interesting if it provided things that the X6 didn't (usability), while still maintaining the styling look. It would have been even more interesting if it had a bigger engine, versus it just being a slightly reshaped more expensive less practical MDX. But alas it has none of these things, and it's actually less usable than the X6 (which is what I pointed out originally).
You can't offer the design of the X6 and ZDX while offering practicality at the same time. Could you imagine how disproportional the ZDX or X6 would look if it kept the same design and offered the practicality of an MDX? Have you read any of the reviews (all) that obviously state that Acura put design ahead of practicality?
Acura is predicting 500 units per month. I wouldn't exactly call that something that is meant to help sales, I don't know why you would think so if Acura doesn't. It is about profits and something tells me this will be Acura's most profitable (per unit sold) car. In the end, that is all they care about and that is whats going to make them bigger.
10-12-2009, 10:48 PM
#1340
Three Wheelin'
I agree with VTEC Racer.
Besides, the ZDX addresses my concerns about the RL. Many people complained about the RL's anonymous styling. I've had people call my car an Accord. The ZDX, on the other hand, doesn't really look like anything else (not even the X6). Some people might dislike the look, but at least they are discussing it. The second concern I have about the RL is the lack of a fold-down rear seat. As I get older and my lifestyle changes, I wish I my RL had a fold-down seat for those Home Depot runs. I don't need the 3 rows of seating that the MDX has, plus the MDX feels like a downgrade from the RL. The ZDX will be a little more practical and more noticeable than the RL, but RL refinement and features.
Besides, the ZDX addresses my concerns about the RL. Many people complained about the RL's anonymous styling. I've had people call my car an Accord. The ZDX, on the other hand, doesn't really look like anything else (not even the X6). Some people might dislike the look, but at least they are discussing it. The second concern I have about the RL is the lack of a fold-down rear seat. As I get older and my lifestyle changes, I wish I my RL had a fold-down seat for those Home Depot runs. I don't need the 3 rows of seating that the MDX has, plus the MDX feels like a downgrade from the RL. The ZDX will be a little more practical and more noticeable than the RL, but RL refinement and features.
10-13-2009, 07:52 AM
#1341
Three Wheelin'
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Most people would agree that the X6 is in a class of its own. If this was just a regular mid-size luxury SUV, we, including yourself, wouldn't be talking about the X6 only. We would have the ML and X5 in the discussion also.
You can't offer the design of the X6 and ZDX while offering practicality at the same time. Could you imagine how disproportional the ZDX or X6 would look if it kept the same design and offered the practicality of an MDX? Have you read any of the reviews (all) that obviously state that Acura put design ahead of practicality?
Acura is predicting 500 units per month. I wouldn't exactly call that something that is meant to help sales, I don't know why you would think so if Acura doesn't. It is about profits and something tells me this will be Acura's most profitable (per unit sold) car. In the end, that is all they care about and that is whats going to make them bigger.
You can't offer the design of the X6 and ZDX while offering practicality at the same time. Could you imagine how disproportional the ZDX or X6 would look if it kept the same design and offered the practicality of an MDX? Have you read any of the reviews (all) that obviously state that Acura put design ahead of practicality?
Acura is predicting 500 units per month. I wouldn't exactly call that something that is meant to help sales, I don't know why you would think so if Acura doesn't. It is about profits and something tells me this will be Acura's most profitable (per unit sold) car. In the end, that is all they care about and that is whats going to make them bigger.
This thing is going to be a sales dog, that won't help Acura. My point in saying that is because Acura's sales are in the toilet and they are falling faster than other luxury marques such as MB,BMW,Lexus,Infiniti,and Audi. A vehicle like this isn't going to boost sales at all. Acura's bread and buter products are suffering, and coming out with another slow seller isn't the answer.
Yes I agree this vehicle may result in some profits, but it won't be enough to save the brand if the TL, TSX, MDX, RDX are still faltering. This won't make Acura "bigger" as you said.
10-13-2009, 08:31 AM
#1342
Suzuka Master
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September sales:
Entry CUV
1. GLK - 1,558
2. Q5 - 1,106
3. X3 - 1,000
4. XC60 - 828
5. RDX - 752
6. EX - 563
Pre-Entry-Level
1. TSX - 2,103
2. C30/S40/V50 - 1,593
3. 1-Series - 1,509
4. HS - 1,242
5. A3 - 362
Entry-Level
1. 3 - 6,523
2. C - 5,002
3. G - 4,112
4. A4/5 - 3,932
5. CTS - 3,485
6. IS - 3,346
7. ES - 3,046
8. TL - 2,034
9. MKZ - 1,536
10. 9-3 - 279
11. S60 - 277
Mid-Level
1. E - 3,812
2. 5 - 2,861
3. MKS - 1,316
4. A6 - 623
5. S80 - 502
6. GS - 501
7. M - 447
8. STS - 434
9. RL - 150
10. 9-5 - 67
The RDX still has the old grille, so we'll see how it does after the facelowered model is introduced (not that it's doing that great currently anyway)
The TSX is doing good, but out of all the designs, it has the best (which is only saying "decent") integration of the new grille.
The megatron looking TL, usually at the top half of its segment, has tanked compared to cars it usually outsells (CTS, IS, G).
As for the RL, a dead horse is still dead, no matter how much ugliness you give it.
10-13-2009, 12:18 PM
#1343
September sales:
Entry CUV
1. GLK - 1,558
2. Q5 - 1,106
3. X3 - 1,000
4. XC60 - 828
5. RDX - 752
6. EX - 563
Pre-Entry-Level
1. TSX - 2,103
2. C30/S40/V50 - 1,593
3. 1-Series - 1,509
4. HS - 1,242
5. A3 - 362
Entry-Level
1. 3 - 6,523
2. C - 5,002
3. G - 4,112
4. A4/5 - 3,932
5. CTS - 3,485
6. IS - 3,346
7. ES - 3,046
8. TL - 2,034
9. MKZ - 1,536
10. 9-3 - 279
11. S60 - 277
Mid-Level
1. E - 3,812
2. 5 - 2,861
3. MKS - 1,316
4. A6 - 623
5. S80 - 502
6. GS - 501
7. M - 447
8. STS - 434
9. RL - 150
10. 9-5 - 67
Entry CUV
1. GLK - 1,558
2. Q5 - 1,106
3. X3 - 1,000
4. XC60 - 828
5. RDX - 752
6. EX - 563
Pre-Entry-Level
1. TSX - 2,103
2. C30/S40/V50 - 1,593
3. 1-Series - 1,509
4. HS - 1,242
5. A3 - 362
Entry-Level
1. 3 - 6,523
2. C - 5,002
3. G - 4,112
4. A4/5 - 3,932
5. CTS - 3,485
6. IS - 3,346
7. ES - 3,046
8. TL - 2,034
9. MKZ - 1,536
10. 9-3 - 279
11. S60 - 277
Mid-Level
1. E - 3,812
2. 5 - 2,861
3. MKS - 1,316
4. A6 - 623
5. S80 - 502
6. GS - 501
7. M - 447
8. STS - 434
9. RL - 150
10. 9-5 - 67
10-13-2009, 12:44 PM
#1344
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The interesting thing is that the Acura Sedans are difficult to classify. IMO, this is intentional. The TSX is larger than it's pre-entry competitors but priced similarly but if it ware placed in the class above with the 3 series, it's getting an ass whooping. I also find it interesting that if the TL were one class up, it's doing quite well.
btw I like your signature
10-13-2009, 12:58 PM
#1345
Randy is the Future
Doesn't the ZDX come with the same amount of power as the X6?
10-13-2009, 01:19 PM
#1347
Go Big Blue!
The interesting thing is that the Acura Sedans are difficult to classify. IMO, this is intentional. The TSX is larger than it's pre-entry competitors but priced similarly but if it ware placed in the class above with the 3 series, it's getting an ass whooping. I also find it interesting that if the TL were one class up, it's doing quite well.
10-13-2009, 05:00 PM
#1348
Still, when I was shopping for a car, there didn't seem to be anything the TSX offered that would've convinced me to buy it over the competition. The premium model was priced more than a C250, but the only thing that MB didn't offer were HIDs, and the sunroof was an option.
10-13-2009, 06:02 PM
#1349
10-13-2009, 07:09 PM
#1350
Honda Fanboy
You effectively didn't respond to any of my rebuttals. The X6 and ZDX are both midsized luxury crossovers. I didn't say that the ZDX or even the X6 "should" have as much practicality as an MDX. My whole point is that the ZDX won't "help" Acura, and that it is no better than the X6. It's smaller than the X6, less practical, and has less panache. For those that say "but it'll be cheaper than the X6!", it's only going to be cheaper by a few grande nothing significant when you're looking at vehicles in this price range (the difference in lease price isn't going to be significant enough for people to choose ZDX over X6).
This thing is going to be a sales dog, that won't help Acura. My point in saying that is because Acura's sales are in the toilet and they are falling faster than other luxury marques such as MB,BMW,Lexus,Infiniti,and Audi. A vehicle like this isn't going to boost sales at all. Acura's bread and buter products are suffering, and coming out with another slow seller isn't the answer.
Yes I agree this vehicle may result in some profits, but it won't be enough to save the brand if the TL, TSX, MDX, RDX are still faltering. This won't make Acura "bigger" as you said.
This thing is going to be a sales dog, that won't help Acura. My point in saying that is because Acura's sales are in the toilet and they are falling faster than other luxury marques such as MB,BMW,Lexus,Infiniti,and Audi. A vehicle like this isn't going to boost sales at all. Acura's bread and buter products are suffering, and coming out with another slow seller isn't the answer.
Yes I agree this vehicle may result in some profits, but it won't be enough to save the brand if the TL, TSX, MDX, RDX are still faltering. This won't make Acura "bigger" as you said.
. You already made your point that ZDX won't help Acura. Did you miss my response? When Acura sets a sales goal of 500 units a month, that is a car that is not meant to dramatically improve sales. Again, Acura never said 500 units a month is going to help the brand, why do you keep thinking so? This car will rake in profits. It most likely cost less than the MDX to develop and will be priced higher than the MDX in the showroom. Bigger profits=more money=bigger company. Welcome to business 001. Whether this thing is going to be a sales dog remains to be seen. Would you call the Lexus HS a sales dog? According to your train of thought, you should. Who ever said Acura developed this car to compete against the X6 in the first place? You do realize that this car was far in development before the X6 was even released for sale? How could Acura have built a car to compete with another car that wasn't even released yet? Your complaints about the ZDX failing to offer as much practicality as the X6 are moot because Acura never designed this car to compete with the X6 (how could they if they didn't even know it existed?) Maybe Acura and BMW have some sort of secret partnership
. The X6 has a starting price tag of $56,000 while we can estimate the ZDX starting from $44,000 (RL+MDX/2). So your telling me that a $12,000 starting price difference is not significant, but the price difference between Acura's and the competition in general are? You can have over $10,000 in options on the ZDX before you even get close to the starting price of an X6. A base X6 still won't give you the largest glass roof in the industry (or any glass roof for that matter), a hand-stitched leather wrapped dash, doors, center console, and steering wheel, adjustable suspension, torque-vectoring AWD, navigation system, premium sound, iPod adapter/usb, keyless start, heated seats, Bluetooth, etc... the list goes on. People will buy the ZDX over the X6 for the same reason they buy a Lexus over the Germans. Again, don't be a hypocrite if you want to build up the zero credibility you have here.
10-13-2009, 08:32 PM
#1352
Three Wheelin'
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There needs to be a rebuttal for me to respond to one . You already made your point that ZDX won't help Acura. Did you miss my response? When Acura sets a sales goal of 500 units a month, that is a car that is not meant to dramatically improve sales. Again, Acura never said 500 units a month is going to help the brand, why do you keep thinking so? This car will rake in profits.
. You already made your point that ZDX won't help Acura. Did you miss my response? When Acura sets a sales goal of 500 units a month, that is a car that is not meant to dramatically improve sales. Again, Acura never said 500 units a month is going to help the brand, why do you keep thinking so? This car will rake in profits.the largest glass roof in the industry (or any glass roof for that matter), a hand-stitched leather wrapped dash, doors, center console, and steering wheel, adjustable suspension, torque-vectoring AWD, navigation system, premium sound, iPod adapter/usb, keyless start, heated seats, Bluetooth, etc... the list goes on.
Who ever said Acura developed this car to compete against the X6 in the first place? You do realize that this car was far in development before the X6 was even released for sale? How could Acura have built a car to compete with another car that wasn't even released yet? Your complaints about the ZDX failing to offer as much practicality as the X6 are moot because Acura never designed this car to compete with the X6 (how could they if they didn't even know it existed?) Maybe Acura and BMW have some sort of secret partnership
Price? no. People in this price range aren't solely price driven if they don't feel that the product is up to their standards. The reason that people buy Lexus over Germans brands is because over time Lexus has built up the same panache as German brands, and has the same quality and refinement that consumers in this segment are looking for but adding the all important reliability factor. If luxury buyers were price driven then Acura and Infiniti wouldn't both have 33+% sales declines for the year (versus the 26% and 23% drops that Lexus and BMW have).
10-13-2009, 08:33 PM
#1353
Burning Brakes
Acura makes bigger profits from selling higher priced cars than lower priced ones. It's part of the reason why flagship cars even exist - they only need to sell a few hundred units to make significant profit. Economy cars need to be sold in masses in order to generate profit.
10-13-2009, 08:39 PM
#1354
Burning Brakes
Conversely, do you think it would make any sense for a company to put all that research, development and craftsmanship into a higher-priced vehicle to have it generate only as much or even less profit than a cheaper one?
10-13-2009, 09:10 PM
#1355
Senior Moderator
My battery seems fine. Never an issue turning over.is is a highly flawed train of thought and logic. X6 prototypes were seen on the ring 3 or 4 years ago (likely when the development of the ZDX began) and the X6 debuted at an autoshow 2 years ago (which more than likely influenced the ZDX's development). Industry insiders have probably known of BMW's development of the X6 at the start which could have been 7 years ago. If you think that Acura had no prior knowledge of the X6 before developing the ZDX you're delusional.
10-13-2009, 09:18 PM
#1356
Honda Fanboy
You again completely miss the point. You don't even substantiate "why" the ZDX would "rake in profits".
You said yourself that Acura didn't spend much money developing the ZDX because it is pretty much a less practical and more expensive MDX. The major components of this car come from the MDX. The chassis, engine, transmission, suspension, electronic hardware, etc, all come from the MDX. If you have car A (MDX) that costs you $10 to develop and build and you sell it for $15, you have a profit margin of $5. If you have car B (ZDX) which cost $7 to develop and build and you sell it for $18, you have a profit margin of $11. Do you need a more simple enough explanation? By build/develop, I mean R&D.
You contradict yourself and prove yourself wrong. How can the ZDX cost less than the MDX to make if it has:
Again, R&D.
So how does a vehicle with all those luxuries costs "less" than the MDX to make? How can you prove that the profit margin is larger?
How many times in the same post do you need to ask this? I don't need things repeated to understand the meaning of it.
No. The HS is the first of it's kinda in the entry level luxury segment, and last month was within 500 units of the much much much cheaper Honda Insight. Should the Insight which costs nearly half the price of the HS be considered a sales dog?
You are right, the HS is the first of it's kind. It should be selling like hotcakes when considering all aspects. The truth is, it doesn't. It is a brand new model and in it's first full month of sales, it has proven itself a failure. The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?
This is a highly flawed train of thought and logic. X6 prototypes were seen on the ring 3 or 4 years ago (likely when the development of the ZDX began) and the X6 debuted at an autoshow 2 years ago (which more than likely influenced the ZDX's development). Industry insiders have probably known of BMW's development of the X6 at the start which could have been 7 years ago. If you think that Acura had no prior knowledge of the X6 before developing the ZDX you're delusional.
So all this time, Acura was building the ZDX to compete against the X6 even though they had only seen camouflaged photos and concepts (before it was even confirmed for production) pictures? The X6 concept was shown in the fall of 2007. Somehow, Acura managed to build the ZDX in 1.5 years according to you? It's one thing to be an industry insider and know that company A is building a new vehicle. But to know what the type of vehicle it is going to be and the design elements and driving emphasis and target consumer, that is what is delusional.
Price? no. People in this price range aren't solely price driven if they don't feel that the product is up to their standards. The reason that people buy Lexus over Germans brands is because over time Lexus has built up the same panache as German brands, and has the same quality and refinement that consumers in this segment are looking for but adding the all important reliability factor. If luxury buyers were price driven then Acura and Infiniti wouldn't both have 33+% sales declines for the year (versus the 26% and 23% drops that Lexus and BMW have).
Don't try to fool yourself or anyone else on here. To think that Lexus has the same panache as the Germans is as absurd as the U.S. giving North Korea nuclear weapons. The mere fact that you have to say that "Lexus has built up the same panache as German brands" is evidence enough that it has not. It's not something that you should have to say. It should be something that is already known. Lexus is still looked down upon by wealthy badge-whores. Go visit a single BMW, MB, or Audi forum and read what the members there have to say. You can believe what you want, but reality is reality and it is time for you to come to it.
You said yourself that Acura didn't spend much money developing the ZDX because it is pretty much a less practical and more expensive MDX. The major components of this car come from the MDX. The chassis, engine, transmission, suspension, electronic hardware, etc, all come from the MDX. If you have car A (MDX) that costs you $10 to develop and build and you sell it for $15, you have a profit margin of $5. If you have car B (ZDX) which cost $7 to develop and build and you sell it for $18, you have a profit margin of $11. Do you need a more simple enough explanation? By build/develop, I mean R&D.
You contradict yourself and prove yourself wrong. How can the ZDX cost less than the MDX to make if it has:
Again, R&D.
So how does a vehicle with all those luxuries costs "less" than the MDX to make? How can you prove that the profit margin is larger?
How many times in the same post do you need to ask this? I don't need things repeated to understand the meaning of it.
No. The HS is the first of it's kinda in the entry level luxury segment, and last month was within 500 units of the much much much cheaper Honda Insight. Should the Insight which costs nearly half the price of the HS be considered a sales dog?
You are right, the HS is the first of it's kind. It should be selling like hotcakes when considering all aspects. The truth is, it doesn't. It is a brand new model and in it's first full month of sales, it has proven itself a failure. The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?
This is a highly flawed train of thought and logic. X6 prototypes were seen on the ring 3 or 4 years ago (likely when the development of the ZDX began) and the X6 debuted at an autoshow 2 years ago (which more than likely influenced the ZDX's development). Industry insiders have probably known of BMW's development of the X6 at the start which could have been 7 years ago. If you think that Acura had no prior knowledge of the X6 before developing the ZDX you're delusional.
So all this time, Acura was building the ZDX to compete against the X6 even though they had only seen camouflaged photos and concepts (before it was even confirmed for production) pictures? The X6 concept was shown in the fall of 2007. Somehow, Acura managed to build the ZDX in 1.5 years according to you? It's one thing to be an industry insider and know that company A is building a new vehicle. But to know what the type of vehicle it is going to be and the design elements and driving emphasis and target consumer, that is what is delusional.
Price? no. People in this price range aren't solely price driven if they don't feel that the product is up to their standards. The reason that people buy Lexus over Germans brands is because over time Lexus has built up the same panache as German brands, and has the same quality and refinement that consumers in this segment are looking for but adding the all important reliability factor. If luxury buyers were price driven then Acura and Infiniti wouldn't both have 33+% sales declines for the year (versus the 26% and 23% drops that Lexus and BMW have).
Don't try to fool yourself or anyone else on here. To think that Lexus has the same panache as the Germans is as absurd as the U.S. giving North Korea nuclear weapons. The mere fact that you have to say that "Lexus has built up the same panache as German brands" is evidence enough that it has not. It's not something that you should have to say. It should be something that is already known. Lexus is still looked down upon by wealthy badge-whores. Go visit a single BMW, MB, or Audi forum and read what the members there have to say. You can believe what you want, but reality is reality and it is time for you to come to it.
10-13-2009, 09:54 PM
#1357
Three Wheelin'
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VTEC Racer you lack basic logic and thought processing skills. You don't follow through with any of your conjectures and many of them don't make any sense. You said "The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?" Are you trying to prove me wrong or prove me right? That is only one of many examples.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
10-13-2009, 09:54 PM
#1358
Three Wheelin'
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VTEC Racer you lack basic logic and thought processing skills. You don't follow through with any of your conjectures and many of them don't make any sense. You said "The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?" Are you trying to prove me wrong or prove me right? That is only one of many examples.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
10-13-2009, 10:14 PM
#1359
Honda Fanboy
VTEC Racer you lack basic logic and thought processing skills. You don't follow through with any of your conjectures and many of them don't make any sense. You said "The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?" Are you trying to prove me wrong or prove me right? That is only one of many examples.
Resort to petty insults when you don’t have a legitimate response. Nice. I have followed through with every legitimate point you have tried to make. If you don’t understand something that I say, then why don’t you ask me instead of just being your usual self?
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem.
This is your opinion then. It has no meaning or value to me. Just stop trying to spread it as fact.
Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none.Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe.
You know this, how?
Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe.
Again, you know this how? Acura never said their buyers are the most affluent. Neither has Lexus. Why? Because they aren’t. So what’s your point?
Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Who says they aren’t?
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
You are unfortunate if you don’t understand why it would be cheaper to develop the ZDX as is versus building it from the ground up. When you use parts that have already been developed for another car and you want to use it on your new car, that is R&D money saved. I am baffled that you cannot grasp such a simple concept.
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Again, if denial is your only way out, then so be it.
Resort to petty insults when you don’t have a legitimate response. Nice. I have followed through with every legitimate point you have tried to make. If you don’t understand something that I say, then why don’t you ask me instead of just being your usual self?
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem.
This is your opinion then. It has no meaning or value to me. Just stop trying to spread it as fact.
Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none.Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe.
You know this, how?
Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe.
Again, you know this how? Acura never said their buyers are the most affluent. Neither has Lexus. Why? Because they aren’t. So what’s your point?
Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Who says they aren’t?
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
You are unfortunate if you don’t understand why it would be cheaper to develop the ZDX as is versus building it from the ground up. When you use parts that have already been developed for another car and you want to use it on your new car, that is R&D money saved. I am baffled that you cannot grasp such a simple concept.
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Again, if denial is your only way out, then so be it.
10-13-2009, 10:31 PM
#1360
Three Wheelin'
VTEC Racer you lack basic logic and thought processing skills. You don't follow through with any of your conjectures and many of them don't make any sense. You said "The HS outsold almost half the cars in Kia's lineup, are those cars all failures?" Are you trying to prove me wrong or prove me right? That is only one of many examples.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Developing any vehicle costs money and marketing any vehicle, no matter the type, costs money. My point in saying that is that I think that the ZDX was a waste of time and money for Acura because it won't influence the brand in a positive way or fix the brand sales problem. Acura's core buyer group aren't going to be buying this vehicle and Acura's target market is slim to none. Couples who want a 2 seater SUV? Not many. Most of those types of people would just get a sedan or a coupe. Acura's current buyers aren't the most affluent (hence why Acura has trouble selling anything over $45K) and most just want Acura to make coupe. Acura would have been better off using the little bit of extra cash to make a coupe version of the TSX/TL. That type of vehicle could sell 2000 units a month and help the brands image more than a narrow minded "crossover coupe".
Using your logic, if Acura made a coupe out of lets say the TL, it would only cost $7 to build (versus your logical $10 for the TL), and both sell for $15. so we have $8 profit on the coupe and if they theoretical could sell 4 times as many coupes than ZDXs which would make more profit in the long run?
Anyway, just so you know, most people see Lexus as a true luxury brand. The only Asian luxury brand German buyers laugh and scoff at is Acura.
Also, if "most" Acura buyers want Acura to make a coupe, why were both generations of CL such sales failures? The ZDX is a niche product, but I think it will sell a little bit better than the CL.