oonowindoo

No because Honda has always been cheap and always will be cheap and they do not have balls.

When a company wants to move "Up", they should look at the success stories like Lexus, and to certain extend Kia/Hyundai and learn from failures like Nissan.

It is risky, you either succeed or you fail, But Honda decided to stay still, which is smart at the time but standing still is just a slower version of failure. If You are not moving forward, then it means you are going backwards.

Colin

New observers to Acura may not realize that there have been several 'boom and bust' cycles at Acura. They debuted with a boom, followed by a bust cycle (93-99), followed by a boom (99-08), followed by a bust. I feel we're on an upswing with the TLX/MDX/RDX/NSX but we're at the start of the cycle and time will tell.

IMO, the product you noted, were largely conceived during a boom period. I've always viewed them as an experiment of sorts. I think that they felt they wanted a wider product line and using a shared chassis to market a unique model was a way to expand with a small investment. It's worth noting that while those product sold poorly, the mainstream models they were based on, were selling well. Perhaps that is what truly mattered?

ttribe

That's quite a spin you're putting on this.

Colin

Is it, were the Accords, Civics, Fits, and CR-Vs not selling well?

ttribe

We aren't talking about Accords, Civics, etc. We are talking about the inept management at Acura for nearly ten years that has repeatedly and consistently foisted unwanted models on its customers. We are talking about a company that desperately wants to be able to do things the way it always has (FWD-based cars derived from their more pedestrian cousins) when the majority of their (alleged) competitors are in a race for greater features, tech, performance and power. I, too, have watched Acura since its inception. My wife and I have owned six Hondas and Acuras in the last 20 years. My disappointment is profound at this point. The latest news out of Acura that they are essentially content with being a "Honda +" is not surprising, but certainly adds to the disappointment with this company.

AZuser

Colin

We weren't, but I was replying to Taco. Also, the supposition that Ikeda will reinforce Honda+ is hardly "news", it's speculation. So stepping away from the typical circular "H/A sucks" arguements, what do we think that Ikeda will bring to the job? He's not a marketing guy, having come up through design. It seems like an interesting selection.

iutodd

Yes - the Honda+ talk is all hearsay and based on a source I wouldn't trust very far. We have no indication of what Acura is doing in the future beyond the NSX launch and some rumors of bigger stuff on the horizon. Ikeda is a Honda and design guy - I hope he brings some passion and more sophisticated designs to Acura - especially interior.

iutodd

Speaking of the other source on TOV - is the site down for anyone else?

I agree with Colin that Acura has found success and is currently having success with so-called "Honda+" products.

I see no reason that Ikeda won't bring passion and solid ideas about how to make the brand successful - if Honda is going to experience a renassaince of sorts over the next three years as they refocus under Hachigo them Acura products will only get better. Might they still be "Honda+"? Maybe - but if Honda brings the best they have to the table and then Acura makes that even better that's a pretty good basis for success Id say.

ttribe

So, you're content with the company's mediocrity.

oonowindoo

Like in any company, there are plenty of people who are content with what they have now and there are others who are willing to take risks and do more to move up.

depends on what you after. middle or the top.

TacoBello

93-99 was a bust period for Acura? 93 was the outgoing 2G Integra. 94 brought in the 3G Integra which was one of Acura's best selling cars, ever. It sold so well, they didn't change it for 7 model years. The EL came out in that time, aka the predecessor to the ILX and CSX and those things sold like hot cakes also.

93-94 and I believe even 95 still had the Legend, which, at the time was a true legend. NSX sales were still going strong in 93. I see no logic in your statement. In the late 90s, driving an Acura was THE car to drive. Let's not forget about the legendary ITR that came out in the late 90s. 99 saw the 2G TL come in and I believe the CL as well.

I'd say Acura was riding a magic carpet from inception, up to 2008, but really, started going down hill a little before 2008. After that, the hideous 4G TL and bloated 2G TSX came out. The CSX was exclusive to Canada and sold ok, but Canada is a small market compared to the US. No idea who's brilliant idea that was. After 2008 there was no luxury vehicles from Acura. After 2008 there was no sports vehicles from Acura. After 2008 there was a lot of confused, lost in space bullshit from Acura.

TacoBello

Don't expect Ikeda to change anything. He's going to be forced to work within the same constraints that Accavitti was forced to work in. All he will do is be Honda's new overseas puppet, while Japan keeps controlling the ropes.

iutodd

You should re-read what I actually wrote and stop making assumptions. I consider what Colin said to be factually true w/r/t Acura's history of successful products.

neuronbob

Colin is not "satisfied with mediocrity" . He's acknowledging reality, which is that Acura is quite good at "Honda +". Given the success of their SUVs, they obviously know something we don't.

From my standpoint, Acura needs styling that is exciting yet inoffensive, and since most people buy with their eyes first, that by itself will help. Give us an affordable sports car. Make the RLX more competitive with its market. Market the hell out of SH-AWD and bring it across the entire product line. Those things are not so tough to do and will result in more sales. They can do reasonably well as "Honda +". They have to build up again in order to get enough mojo to do another $65k car....one that could sell.

It's too bad Acura sedans are moribund--the RLX Sport Hybrid is a damned good and well-engineered car. I am one of those oddballs who likes the way it looks.....though I'd respond to a more emotional wrapper, too.

ttribe

Come on, Bob! You know better than this! The last 10 years have been one disappointment after another when it comes to the disconnect between the rhetoric that comes out of Acura executives and the actual product. Acura was the FIRST Japanese Lux brand. They made huge waves with the Legend, and the NSX. They had some good momentum going again with the 2G and 3G TL, but they pissed it all away. They sat on the sidelines and watched Lexus destroy them in market share, quality, prestige, and performance.

Your comment on the MDX doesn't bear out when considered in the light of all mid and full-size SUV sales. Everyone is selling the hell out of these things. Acura would have to be beyond stupid to not have success selling an SUV right now (e.g. Isuzu). That's not to say it's a bad vehicle. It's not. It's very good, in fact. But, it's not indicative of a company that knows what's it doing across the board. They don't, and that evidence has been under very bright lights since the advent of the 4G TL.

Acura likes to take swipes at the German lux brands, but in reality their only real competitors are Buick and Lincoln. That's just plain sad.

neoshi

I agree with you. SUV is just the popular class and Acura sells on a value proposition using good power, better than most handling, a look that appeals to the masses, and generally competitive pricing.

But look closer (or own one) and you will find many, many complaints about the sacrifices in quality and questionable reliability. I hope Ikeda can do something about it, but knowing the Honda family, he can't even if he wants to.

oonowindoo

I would have some serious hard time picking the MDX over the new pilot for $10k more. Old Pilot yes cuz it was fugly, new one... not sure if MDX has nothing that the new pilot doesn't.

neoshi

I would seriously argue that outside of the power, handling, and looks, the MDX is BEHIND the new Pilot. Even the new AWD system for the pilot seems to be a close cousin of the SHAWD system.

Colin

Thanks for pointing out the Integra success in that period. The problem was with Legend and Vigor sales. Although the Legend (91-95) was an outstanding car, sales did not come, and the Vigor never set the world on fire. Thus my statement (IMO of course) that the decline started in 93-99.

For the US (from wiki)
90 = 138K
91 = 143K
92 = 120K
93 = 108K
94 = 112K
95 = 97K
96 = 107K
97 = 108K
98 = 110K
99 = 118K
00 = 142K
01 = 170K
02 = 165K
03 = 170K
04 = 198K
05 = 209K

and it was downward from there to 2009 at 105K. Then it started to reverse and it was back up to 165K in 2014. Ironically, the only successful product in this earlier mentioned bust of 93-99 was the "Honda+" Integra.

ttribe

+1

oonowindoo

The more important question is how was rest of the market and its competitors?

Success and failure is measured against the competition or the #s mean absolutely nothing in terms of success or failure.

neuronbob

I agree with this. And yes, Acura can do better and I really want them to do better. The Sport Hybrid is an example of what they can do well.....but the launch was just gawdawful, and BTW continues to be awful--the rumors are only 250 2016 RLX hybrids.

I keep wondering whether it will take torches and pitchforks from us, the enthusiasts, to get things done.

PS--I tried to get my wife into a MDX. She chose the Buick Enclave. An ENCLAVE! (OK, it's a solid SUV that drives well and has more room than the MDX, but still.....)

Sarlacc

BREAKING NEWS

Acura wants to remain boring and irrelevant.

In other news. SSFTSX continues to have rectal intercourse with his 1/24 scale Acura collection.

iutodd

It's a good thing power, handling and looks aren't important then.

oonowindoo

Acura really should have put a different/sportier F/R bumper, wheels, taillight, grills and interior pieces/colors for the RLX SS if they are actually serious about it.

They call it Sport hybrid and it looks identical to a FWD RLX that has nothing to do with any kind of "Sport".

oonowindoo

honestly MDX has little or none advantage over the Pilot in terms of Power, handling and looks.
They are essential the same car just with different skin.

Knight Rider 357

I really hope they are smart enough to realize they need to do more for Acura then just giving them Accord platforms with fancy awd systems.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It's true that what rolledansx said is just speculation, but a lot of time, his info seems to be correct.

So assuming what he said is correct, and Acura continues to be Honda+, then IMO, Acura is in trouble in the medium to long term.

Yes, right now, the Honda+ models, like the TLX, RDX, and MDX are doing quite well in terms of sales. I don't doubt that Honda is making a fortune from these cars. However, Honda models are stepping up their game too, and it's happening very fast. The facelifted Accord, the upcoming Civic, and the new Pilot are prime examples of Honda models raising the bar, approaching Acura level. While the MDX has built a great reputation to be one of the best mid-size luxury SUV's in the market, but with the new Pilot, would that hurt the MDX sales? Perhaps not in the short term, but 3 years from now? 5 years? 10 years?

It's almost certain that other mainstream car makers will make the step up to compete with Accord/Civic/Pilot. There's the argument that Acura is a value luxury brand. Without some serious investment How will Acura differentiate the MDX and its other models from the new Honda models remains to be seen.

oonowindoo

The Honda+ in the 90s and 2000s are not the same Honda+ today. The market is different, cars are different, perceptions are different and it is just a matter of time before the Honda + will not work anymore.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. I forgot to mention that the Tier-1 brands are also launching less expensive vehicles, namely CLA, A3, 2-series, etc. While they might not have the same "value" as Acura models, they do offer one important thing that Acura doesn't have - prestige factor. That is one huge factor.

neoshi

Well yanno, for a lot of families looking for SUVs, those attributes actually don't come first. It's stuff like more interior space, creature comforts (the ones that keep the kids silent), and room to carry cargo. The same folks who drive the Highlanders, where the 6 cyl gives you a feeling when trying to accelerate... but still highly popular!

Sarlacc

I beg to differ...

Sarlacc

PS...my wife's former '12 Highlander might have been a boring couch...but I can't knock the V6, its not a slouch as far as power is concerned.

neoshi

You obviously have more tolerance than my wife, who loathes the acceleration of the 15 Highlander XLE V6 AWD (and probably why we have the MDX). Then again, she DDs a 5.3s (and still wants faster) car so maybe it's her...

Sarlacc

Havent driven the new gen so I have no reference to compare...but yeah, having a 5 sec DD makes a difference.

kurtatx

It's like people buy the car for a badge or something....

Get out of fantasy land. I hate half the Hondas out there, but their strategy is working. They outsell 2 to 1 a BMW that can't dilute its brand far enough. "Honda/Acura" is doing fine. Acura could be a lot better, no doubt, but your complaints about Honda's failures are ridiculous when you consider how incredible their successes have been in the same time period.

oonowindoo

who said anything about Honda is not doing fine.

I thought we were talking about Acura?

MDX is selling and doing great when you compare to other Acura cars. but when you put it against its competitor, it is just doing average. check the sales numbers for RX, X5 and ML.

just give it a few more months and you will see how the new Pilot eats away MDX's sales number.

ttribe

No kidding?! A car company (Honda) that sells models ranging from the sub-$20s to nearly $50k sells more units than a company whose models begin in the $30s. I never would have thunk it!

That's not one of your finer efforts.

kurtatx

If someone chooses a Pilot over an MDX, does it matter? Do we know the margins Honda makes on both cars?