Acura: RLX News
#2161
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Who says the RL has to compete against v8's? Who made that rule that only people shopping for a 550 or M56 will want to cross shop an RL (where it will fail miserably in the performance category)? On the flip side, who says the ES gets off the hook doesn't have to compete against a Buick Lacrosse (where the Buick destroys it in terms of value)?
If you can only run 2k, do you really think you can enter a 5k and do well? That's what Acura did, their entrant into that segment did not offer everything taht would make it competitive in that segment.
I think your comments just reinforce my argument that the RL is all wrong more because of who is selling it and where it sits in their lineup. It's all about preconceived notions set by car mags and others in the industry.
I'm arguing the point of who is selling it, not where it sits in the lineup because where it sits is determined by Acura. You said that if you slap a lexus badge on it, it would sell. I am countering that point wholeheartedly that if everything else is equal (i.e. slapping a lexus badge on it, but design and price remain the same), it would still remain uncompetitive because no matter what badge was on it, it STILL fails to offer V8, RWD, and better styling and options that every other decent selling model in that segment offers.
Last edited by mrdeeno; 07-22-2010 at 02:55 PM.
#2162
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
It just seems you guys are arguing this from a very narrow view. I'm not looking at this as "V6 RL vs. V6 GS" or "AWD RL vs. AWD GS". I'm looking at this from "RL vs GS" or "RL vs. M" or "RL vs. every other model in the segment".
It's the same freakin argument I always made. The RL does NOT have the equipment to be competitive in that segment. Is it competitive to SOME models with certain configurations? Sure! But it is NOT competitive in the segment as a whole, and not competitive with the better selling models in that segment as a whole, no matter what badge is on it.
Last edited by mrdeeno; 07-22-2010 at 02:58 PM.
#2163
Go Big Blue!
We're not really that far off on viewpoint except on this last point. You lose me here. I think the RL would sell much better. In fact it already is. The RL is selling in their lineup as the GS as pointed out by others already. It's virtually the same car. In fact, I almost bought one 3 years ago before I got the RL. Even has the bland looks (before the last MMC). Tell me why the GS350 is such a better car and has warranted more sales over it's lifecycle? It's not because its in the Lexus lineup and offers a v8 variant (which no one really buys anyway)?
#2164
We're not really that far off on viewpoint except on this last point. You lose me here. I think the RL would sell much better. In fact it already is. The RL is selling in their lineup as the GS as pointed out by others already. It's virtually the same car. In fact, I almost bought one 3 years ago before I got the RL. Even has the bland looks (before the last MMC). Tell me why the GS350 is such a better car and has warranted more sales over it's lifecycle? It's not because its in the Lexus lineup and offers a v8 variant (which no one really buys anyway)?
The GS350 AWD (or GS300 AWD from 06-07 or something like that) is aided by more prestige than that which is surrounding the RL. The GS is not only from a more prestigious brand but is one people related with offering a V-8, perhaps even associated with rear drive. This makes it more upscale to a good portion of the public, I think. People don't buy the V8 model but it certainly enhances perception, and that's what many buyers are looking for here.
I also think it's noticably more styling, but that's me.
#2165
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
We're not really that far off on viewpoint except on this last point. You lose me here. I think the RL would sell much better. In fact it already is. The RL is selling in their lineup as the GS as pointed out by others already. It's virtually the same car. In fact, I almost bought one 3 years ago before I got the RL. Even has the bland looks (before the last MMC). Tell me why the GS350 is such a better car and has warranted more sales over it's lifecycle? It's not because its in the Lexus lineup and offers a v8 variant (which no one really buys anyway)?
The GS MODEL offers RWD, offers a hybrid version, offers a V8. The RL MODEL does not offer these things. Regardless of whether people buy these or not is irrelevant, because if it were then NO brand would offer a V8 version.
You're still caught up on "V6 AWD vs. V6 AWD", which is fine if you want to look at it that way to support your case, but then bring up the M35x and see how your case is torn apart then, because Infiniti had equal if not worse image than Acura yet sells much better.
My argument is that you can't look at it from such a narrow viewpoint. Model for model (ie. RL vs. GS vs. M vs. E vs. 5, regardless of V6 or AWD or whatever), the RL is not competitive in the segment, regardless of what badge its wearing. On the flip side, I believe that slapping an Acura badge the GS MODEL (i.e. V6 and V8, RWD and AWD version) it would be competitive because of what it offered in regards to the segment it was competing in.
Last edited by mrdeeno; 07-22-2010 at 03:14 PM.
#2166
Go Big Blue!
OK mrdeeno. We're starting to talk in a circle now. This all started in post 987 when I said that the RL would sell better as a Lexus with all things being equal. Not sure how anyone can honestly argue that but believe what you want. One thing most of us are in agreement on (and I stated it in that post), they need to add a v8, etc, etc, if they want this car to be a legitimate end-cap for the lineup and help the brand. Otherwise, the car hurts the brand which in turn hurts car which in turn further hurts the brand leading to a perpectual spiral downward.
#2169
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
OK mrdeeno. We're starting to talk in a circle now. This all started in post 987 when I said that the RL would sell better as a Lexus with all things being equal. Not sure how anyone can honestly argue that but believe what you want. One thing most of us are in agreement on (and I stated it in that post), they need to add a v8, etc, etc, if they want this car to be a legitimate end-cap for the lineup and help the brand. Otherwise, the car hurts the brand which in turn hurts car which in turn further hurts the brand leading to a perpectual spiral downward.
Yes, I agree, image for the brand is a drag for the car. I would never argue that. Put a Lexus badge on it and they'd sell more.
But yes, I consider that all things are equal...the "Lexus" RL will be equal to the Acura RL because all you're doing is slapping a lexus badge on it...ie there is no V8/RWD/hybrid/etc. offered...which is what "slapping a badge" on a car means. As soon as you add a V8/RWD and other options, it's not simply "putting a badge on" as you put. If that's what you meant, then maybe you should've said that instead.
But instead if you meant "equal" as in if the RL was as copmetitive as the GS, it would sell like the GS because it offers equal options/engines/RWD/etc, then that's just stating the obvious. That's like saying "If I could play football like Brett Favre, then I can be competitive as Brett Favre". uh, DUH!
But that's what my viewpoint is. It has nothing to do with badge...Brett Favre under any other name can still play football well. Unless you're talking about BMW or MB, the badge can be overcome by the product. Unfortunately the RL product is not competitive in its segment, whether it wears a Lexus, Infiniti, Audi or whatever badge. And that's where I bring in Infiniti...it didn't need a "Lexus" badge to sell more, it just needed to get the formula right for the segment.
Last edited by mrdeeno; 07-22-2010 at 08:03 PM.
#2170
Senior Moderator
But you are assuming everything is equal, which they are definitely not!
The GS MODEL offers RWD, offers a hybrid version, offers a V8. The RL MODEL does not offer these things. Regardless of whether people buy these or not is irrelevant, because if it were then NO brand would offer a V8 version.
You're still caught up on "V6 AWD vs. V6 AWD", which is fine if you want to look at it that way to support your case, but then bring up the M35x and see how your case is torn apart then, because Infiniti had equal if not worse image than Acura yet sells much better.
My argument is that you can't look at it from such a narrow viewpoint. Model for model (ie. RL vs. GS vs. M vs. E vs. 5, regardless of V6 or AWD or whatever), the RL is not competitive in the segment, regardless of what badge its wearing. On the flip side, I believe that slapping an Acura badge the GS MODEL (i.e. V6 and V8, RWD and AWD version) it would be competitive because of what it offered in regards to the segment it was competing in.
The GS MODEL offers RWD, offers a hybrid version, offers a V8. The RL MODEL does not offer these things. Regardless of whether people buy these or not is irrelevant, because if it were then NO brand would offer a V8 version.
You're still caught up on "V6 AWD vs. V6 AWD", which is fine if you want to look at it that way to support your case, but then bring up the M35x and see how your case is torn apart then, because Infiniti had equal if not worse image than Acura yet sells much better.
My argument is that you can't look at it from such a narrow viewpoint. Model for model (ie. RL vs. GS vs. M vs. E vs. 5, regardless of V6 or AWD or whatever), the RL is not competitive in the segment, regardless of what badge its wearing. On the flip side, I believe that slapping an Acura badge the GS MODEL (i.e. V6 and V8, RWD and AWD version) it would be competitive because of what it offered in regards to the segment it was competing in.
#2171
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Acura has simply chosen to go its own way. Some people prefer only one or two options and this appeals to them. For Acura to offer any of their cars in even 10 different flavors would be a nightmare because nobody would simply order the car and they would produce too many of one kind not enough of another.
#2172
Acura has simply chosen to go its own way. Some people prefer only one or two options and this appeals to them. For Acura to offer any of their cars in even 10 different flavors would be a nightmare because nobody would simply order the car and they would produce too many of one kind not enough of another.
In response to that, yes there are some buyers who prefer only one or two options....and with RL car having been a failure ever since its birth I think the portion of those buyers is just too small.
#2173
6G TLX-S
You are EXACTLY spot on. Every one is looking at it as a same equipped vs same equipped. That is is all fine and dandy, But NOW look at ALL the other variations of the same car and acura just doesnt have it to compete with. Acura is just cant compete and its sales numbers reflect it.
The GS has options ..... lots and lots of options, such as powertrain options, drive-line options, hybrid option, etc. This almost mix-and-match variations enable the GS to capture a much, much wider range of buyers, which equates to more sales.
On the other hand, the RL has exactly one mechanical configuration : 3.7L-V6 with AWD. You either buy it or you don't. This is obviously going to limit the customer base.
Acura sold 163 RL's last month. Let's assume that Lexus also sold 163 GS350-AWD last month. But when Lexus also added up the total number of GS350-RWD, GS460-RWD, and GS450h sold last month, the total sales number is going to be many, many folds bigger.
Expensive car buyers are no fool, these days. They want choices. Give them lots of choices and they'll come to buy your cars.
Acura was and still is never ready to go upscale with the lack of V8 engines and simply RWD chassis, and it's reluctance to follow the main stream technologies.
#2174
Burning Brakes
Acura has simply chosen to go its own way. Some people prefer only one or two options and this appeals to them. For Acura to offer any of their cars in even 10 different flavors would be a nightmare because nobody would simply order the car and they would produce too many of one kind not enough of another.
![Gold Cup](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/goldcup.gif)
End of Discussion/
#2175
6G TLX-S
Acura has simply chosen to go its own way. Some people prefer only one or two options and this appeals to them. For Acura to offer any of their cars in even 10 different flavors would be a nightmare because nobody would simply order the car and they would produce too many of one kind not enough of another.
But for luxury brands, multiple flavor ordering is a must as demonstrated by the success of Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB.
If Acura can't handle multiple flavor ordering, then it is simply not ready to become a true luxury brand that can. Acura has chosen to go it's own way, and this leads to it's downfall to go upmarket.
#2176
AZ Community Team
Single flavor ordering only works well with economy brands when they need to churn out millions and millions of cheap little cars.
But for luxury brands, multiple flavor ordering is a must as demonstrated by the success of Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB.
If Acura can't handle multiple flavor ordering, then it is simply not ready to become a true luxury brand that can. Acura has chosen to go it's own way, and this leads to it's downfall to go upmarket.
But for luxury brands, multiple flavor ordering is a must as demonstrated by the success of Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB.
If Acura can't handle multiple flavor ordering, then it is simply not ready to become a true luxury brand that can. Acura has chosen to go it's own way, and this leads to it's downfall to go upmarket.
Engine packages tend to be much more limited at Acura, where the TL-S has a more powerful engines but the MDX comes with one engine. That is the luxury SUV market but none the less the MDX only comes with a 3.7L V6 and easily beats BMW and MB in that market in sales. But the BMW and ML offer V6 and V8 and individual options.
Enclave 4,715 +14.9%
SRX 4,081 +654.3%
MDX 4,064 +65.6%
x5 2,661 +21.1%
M class 2,264 +12%
MKX 1,705 -10.6%
GX 1,413 +111.5%
FX 860 +1.5%
Q7 666 -16.2%
In terms of the RWD hurting the RL, the A6 comes in AWD and FWD (yes you can order a FWD A6 for US) and DTS is FWD and only comes with a V8.
IMO the bottom line is most US mid-size luxury buyers would rather spend a little more money and get a MB or BMW. Really noone really competes with them in that market with the exception of the Cadillac DTS here are July's sales numbers.
E class 5,476 +140.7%
5 series 2,289 -41.4%
DTS 2,263 +48.9%
MKS 1,554 +17.6%
M 1,065 +61.9%
A6 784 +51.9%
GS 771 +49.4%
RL 151 -10.7%
To me alot of what is hurting the RL involves the price point, image, and some the vehicle design. It's small, Acura marketing has not been good for that model and it's priced too close to the MB and BMW models.
#2177
while i do think options may help the competition, i don't think the lack of is hurting Acura. I personally prefer this method, especially when an Audi costs 50K+ and HIDs come as an option on a package - that actually annoys me more than me saying "oh look I have options". And I think we all know the RL's bigger problems aren't its lack of personal customization.
besides, it's not like you can go to a Lexus dealer and say you want X, Y & Z. I mean there are options, but it's the dealer who provides options he thinks consumers would want. Which is kinda what Acura does, except Acura comes from corporate level, and Lexus is at the dealer level.
besides, it's not like you can go to a Lexus dealer and say you want X, Y & Z. I mean there are options, but it's the dealer who provides options he thinks consumers would want. Which is kinda what Acura does, except Acura comes from corporate level, and Lexus is at the dealer level.
#2178
Go Big Blue!
while i do think options may help the competition, i don't think the lack of is hurting Acura. I personally prefer this method, especially when an Audi costs 50K+ and HIDs come as an option on a package - that actually annoys me more than me saying "oh look I have options". And I think we all know the RL's bigger problems aren't its lack of personal customization.
besides, it's not like you can go to a Lexus dealer and say you want X, Y & Z. I mean there are options, but it's the dealer who provides options he thinks consumers would want. Which is kinda what Acura does, except Acura comes from corporate level, and Lexus is at the dealer level.
besides, it's not like you can go to a Lexus dealer and say you want X, Y & Z. I mean there are options, but it's the dealer who provides options he thinks consumers would want. Which is kinda what Acura does, except Acura comes from corporate level, and Lexus is at the dealer level.
Besides, saying you have a menu of options when you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc. is not true in reality. Have you ever shopped for those type of cars? The cars are built with the most popular configurations and shipped over here. Your choices are still limited to a few common configurations. Sure if you want to custom order and build one you can do that. But who is going to do that? Pay MSRP and wait 4 months for the car? Unless you REALLY do want some odd and specific configuration, most are going to just look for a car already here that they can live with even if it's not exactly what they'd build. How is that really different than what Acura does and some others now?
Acura's got problems. That's the least of them
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 07-23-2010 at 08:27 AM.
#2179
The RL comes in 3 package selections and the MDX comes with 5 so not sure what you mean with the single flavor approach. Acura has always had package selections, Honda has had them since the first Accord. More recently they've had some individual options, notably being Navigation and summer tires. Also there are multiple color combinations available for interior/exterior. So they have pacakges but have very limited line options.
The TL and now only recently the TSX have that.
Engine packages tend to be much more limited at Acura, where the TL-S has a more powerful engines but the MDX comes with one engine. That is the luxury SUV market but none the less the MDX only comes with a 3.7L V6 and easily beats BMW and MB in that market in sales. But the BMW and ML offer V6 and V8 and individual options.
Enclave 4,715 +14.9%
SRX 4,081 +654.3%
MDX 4,064 +65.6%
x5 2,661 +21.1%
M class 2,264 +12%
MKX 1,705 -10.6%
GX 1,413 +111.5%
FX 860 +1.5%
Q7 666 -16.2%
Enclave 4,715 +14.9%
SRX 4,081 +654.3%
MDX 4,064 +65.6%
x5 2,661 +21.1%
M class 2,264 +12%
MKX 1,705 -10.6%
GX 1,413 +111.5%
FX 860 +1.5%
Q7 666 -16.2%
You're looking at nearly 60 thousand for an X5 with comparable power, leather, adaptive suspension, etc., and that still doesn't include things like navigation. The MDX is much more affordable because it starts at a similar price with the X5 but has sunroof and leather and many goodies that BMW nicks you for. Acura MDX Advances top out around 54K. I bet if you looked at the average transaction price for both there'd be about maybe 47K or something for the MDX (sticker prices, not deals), and at LEAST 10 grand more for the BMW. That's a big difference for a lot of people.
There's a good difference for the Mercedes as well. But the Mercedes is also older and aging, and sales tend to slow as a result.
In terms of the RWD hurting the RL, the A6 comes in AWD and FWD (yes you can order a FWD A6 for US) and DTS is FWD and only comes with a V8.
IMO the bottom line is most US mid-size luxury buyers would rather spend a little more money and get a MB or BMW. Really noone really competes with them in that market with the exception of the Cadillac DTS here are July's sales numbers.
E class 5,476 +140.7%
5 series 2,289 -41.4%
DTS 2,263 +48.9%
MKS 1,554 +17.6%
M 1,065 +61.9%
A6 784 +51.9%
GS 771 +49.4%
RL 151 -10.7%
IMO the bottom line is most US mid-size luxury buyers would rather spend a little more money and get a MB or BMW. Really noone really competes with them in that market with the exception of the Cadillac DTS here are July's sales numbers.
E class 5,476 +140.7%
5 series 2,289 -41.4%
DTS 2,263 +48.9%
MKS 1,554 +17.6%
M 1,065 +61.9%
A6 784 +51.9%
GS 771 +49.4%
RL 151 -10.7%
The DTS still has a consumer base for those wanting big, cushy, premium AMERICAN branded wheels. There's also the fact that no one pays anywhere near sticker for the DTS, AND it has CONSIDERABLE portions sold as taxi/limo services and rentals. And again, I don't think front drive hurts its much, not in its market.
I wasn't saying above simply "You're wrong", just that there's a lot more to sales figures than just appeal, but I bet you know that already.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#2180
Senior Moderator
#2181
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
What I've found is E buyers (supposedly in the same class as RL buyers) really only want a few different options... P1 w/Navi is most common. Sometimes you get a P2 buyer (HIDs, Keyless Go) or someone wanting Pano but this is the minority. I don't think making cars with few options is doing too much harm to the RL... I think they just don't see how an Acura/Honda is worth 55 large. I think when people get into the 45-50k range they are looking at a Tier 1 brand. The RL gets overlooked.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
#2182
Go Big Blue!
What I've found is E buyers (supposedly in the same class as RL buyers) really only want a few different options... P1 w/Navi is most common. Sometimes you get a P2 buyer (HIDs, Keyless Go) or someone wanting Pano but this is the minority. I don't think making cars with few options is doing too much harm to the RL... I think they just don't see how an Acura/Honda is worth 55 large. I think when people get into the 45-50k range they are looking at a Tier 1 brand. The RL gets overlooked.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The one option/flexibility they need to addis an engine option with more power, or at least more torque. There are those that absolutely will not accept anything but a growling V8 so that would still be best, especially if they go large with the next RL. But a sophisticated v6 TC option for all their cars would be a great first step to changing the brands image in the direction it seems they want to go. Look what amazing things BMW does with their 3.0l. Not many people miss the extra cylinders with those setups.
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 07-23-2010 at 03:07 PM.
#2183
Three Wheelin'
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...
- With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
- Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
- A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
- On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
- It comes in only three colors.
- Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors
(which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
- The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
#2184
Go Big Blue!
^ I agree.
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...
- With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
- Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
- A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
- On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
- It comes in only three colors.
- Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors
(which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
- The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 07-23-2010 at 04:09 PM.
#2185
AZ Community Team
What I've found is E buyers (supposedly in the same class as RL buyers) really only want a few different options... P1 w/Navi is most common. Sometimes you get a P2 buyer (HIDs, Keyless Go) or someone wanting Pano but this is the minority. I don't think making cars with few options is doing too much harm to the RL... I think they just don't see how an Acura/Honda is worth 55 large. I think when people get into the 45-50k range they are looking at a Tier 1 brand. The RL gets overlooked.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.
After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.
I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.
When the RL came out from a design point of view it competed well in it's class but now with newer models from MB, BMW,... and no major updates (still has a 5AT) it's easy to see why the sales have fallen so much.
#2186
Three Wheelin'
the RL is as good as a sitting duck waiting for my shotgun to unload on it. while the party have moved onto bigger and better things (i.e. options of V8, hybrid, AWD, RWD, more horsepower, more fancy tech stuff, etc...), the RL is going backwards. if i got 55 large to spend, i am sure ain't spending it on a car that looks like a beaver tooth, underpowered, bland, and have no options. i want to be unique, different from the crowd and the RL is just like any other accords or camry out there.....same as everyone else.
#2187
AZ Community Team
^ I agree.
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...
- With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
- Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
- A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
- On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
- It comes in only three colors.
- Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors
(which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
- The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
#2188
6G TLX-S
.....
Besides, saying you have a menu of options when you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc. is not true in reality. Have you ever shopped for those type of cars? The cars are built with the most popular configurations and shipped over here. Your choices are still limited to a few common configurations. Sure if you want to custom order and build one you can do that. But who is going to do that? Pay MSRP and wait 4 months for the car? Unless you REALLY do want some odd and specific configuration, most are going to just look for a car already here that they can live with even if it's not exactly what they'd build. How is that really different than what Acura does and some others now?
.....
In fact, my custom ordered A6 ended up thousands cheaper than the then-one-choice-only RL. However, the RL was very well equipped indeed, but why force me to pay for standard equipments such as power sunroof, GPS, high power bose audio, etc. when I had no desire for them.
The following year, Acura realized this mistake and immediately released a much cheaper, reduced content RL to try to rescue sales. This gave the RL buyers a total choice of TWO to choose from, but still with the single flavor of powertrain and driveline combination.
It is a fair game. For those who have to have a new car right away, they pay extra money for that privilege. But for those who want to save money, they custom order their cars and wait for them.
The Audi dealership I bought my A6 from once told me a little secret. The dealership orders nothing but fully loaded Audi's. So it can reap the most profit from those buyers who must have a new Audi right away. But smart buyers tend to do custom ordering. They wait and they save. At the end of the model year, the dealership will heavily discounted all these fully-loaded leftover models because there ain't no more money-no-objective-must-have-new-car-now people. This is the time to buy bargain Audi's.
#2189
6G TLX-S
The RL comes in 3 package selections and the MDX comes with 5 so not sure what you mean with the single flavor approach. Acura has always had package selections, Honda has had them since the first Accord. More recently they've had some individual options, notably being Navigation and summer tires. Also there are multiple color combinations available for interior/exterior. So they have pacakges but have very limited line options.
Engine packages tend to be much more limited at Acura, where the TL-S has a more powerful engines but the MDX comes with one engine. That is the luxury SUV market but none the less the MDX only comes with a 3.7L V6 and easily beats BMW and MB in that market in sales. But the BMW and ML offer V6 and V8 and individual options.
.....[
Engine packages tend to be much more limited at Acura, where the TL-S has a more powerful engines but the MDX comes with one engine. That is the luxury SUV market but none the less the MDX only comes with a 3.7L V6 and easily beats BMW and MB in that market in sales. But the BMW and ML offer V6 and V8 and individual options.
.....[
Acura
TSX : I4-FWD, V6-FWD
TL : 3.5L-V6-FWD, 3.7L-V6-AWD
RL : 3.7L-V6-AWD
RDX : I4T-FWD, AWD optional
MDX : 3.7L-V6-AWD
ZDX : 3.7L-V6-AWD
But for BMW, MB, and Lexus, most models can be ordered as a combination of both V6/V8/(V10) and 2wd/AWD. This virtually mix-and-match variation is what Acura is lacking in flavor.
#2190
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
^ I agree.
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...
- With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
- Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
- A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
- On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
- It comes in only three colors.
- Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors
(which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
- The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
+2 on the MDX's multi-view camera. I tried it on a 2010 MDX Tech loaner, and it works wonders. A very nice feature, and IMHO it's a must have for safety (checking out for small children in the parking lot when in reverse), and ease of use when backing up and parallel parking.
IMHO, the multi-view camera virtually addresses my main chief prior concern with driving a large SUV (difficulty w/visual access during backing up and parallel parking). I have on my radar a CPO 2010+ MDX Tech as my next vehicle
![Wish](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wish.gif)
The RL's CMBS and ACC are ho hum features IMHO; not enough for me to want to fork over $10k+ over the TL's excellent 6MT and SH-AWD combo.
The RL definitely needs further separation from the TL. I have a gut feeling Acura realizes this, or at least I hope they do.
#2191
^ I agree.
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...
- With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
- Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
- A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
- On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
- It comes in only three colors.
- Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors
(which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
- The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)
Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.
#2192
6G TLX-S
Why ?
Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.
AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD
- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.
Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :
V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.
I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.
A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !
Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.
Last edited by Edward'TLS; 07-23-2010 at 06:28 PM.
#2193
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,254
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
MB understands that not many buy the V8 and maybe they don't make much money on it but it is important to have it just as having the G550, GL550, or SL65 is important. Acura doesn't sell enough cars to do that. Well, they kind of kept the NSX on for a while but when Mr. Honda died the company went to shit.
I get plenty of people who WANT the V8 but settle for the V6... maybe in their mind some of that V8 power rubs off on their car... or they hope to get a CPO one some day.
I love the RL before they hit it with the ugly stick and I'd buy one if I needed such a car (over an E) but that's only because I sold them and I know the car.
Acura should just sell a damn RL with every Japanese tech toy on it... they had or have cool options for it in Japan like these front bumper cameras... just put it out there let people see what you could have. But they won't... they're too conservative in their business model.
Cars like the NSX and the RL show or showed what Acura was capable of doing yet didn't. And that's sad and why I left because if a company doesn't have confidence in themselves why am I, as a sales person, going have it?
And Colin your points are all great but there's not enough sizzle in that steak I think. It's more of an intellectual sell.
I get plenty of people who WANT the V8 but settle for the V6... maybe in their mind some of that V8 power rubs off on their car... or they hope to get a CPO one some day.
I love the RL before they hit it with the ugly stick and I'd buy one if I needed such a car (over an E) but that's only because I sold them and I know the car.
Acura should just sell a damn RL with every Japanese tech toy on it... they had or have cool options for it in Japan like these front bumper cameras... just put it out there let people see what you could have. But they won't... they're too conservative in their business model.
Cars like the NSX and the RL show or showed what Acura was capable of doing yet didn't. And that's sad and why I left because if a company doesn't have confidence in themselves why am I, as a sales person, going have it?
And Colin your points are all great but there's not enough sizzle in that steak I think. It's more of an intellectual sell.
And with that volume MB is most probably making decent profit on the E-class while Honda/Acura will have a extremely difficult time trying to get volume efficiency even with some of the reuse of the J motor and SH-AWD components.
When the RL came out from a design point of view it competed well in it's class but now with newer models from MB, BMW,... and no major updates (still has a 5AT) it's easy to see why the sales have fallen so much.
When the RL came out from a design point of view it competed well in it's class but now with newer models from MB, BMW,... and no major updates (still has a 5AT) it's easy to see why the sales have fallen so much.
Last edited by CL6; 07-23-2010 at 07:44 PM.
#2194
The lack of RWD chassis is definitely hurting RL and even the want-to-be-true-luxury Acura brand.
Why ?
Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.
AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD
- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.
Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :
V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.
I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.
A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !
Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.
Why ?
Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.
AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD
- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.
Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :
V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.
I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.
A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !
Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.
The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.
Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.
#2195
6G TLX-S
You're looking at it too much from an engineering, enthusiast-type perspective.
The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.
Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.
The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.
Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.
But with ample horsepower (another 50 to 100 more hp), the difference in acceleration feel between the 2wd and the AWD cars becomes almost negligible. Once again, no such luck for the Acura RL for lacking a high-power (350-400hp) V6 or a V8 engine choice.
When compared to the A6, the RL is definitely on the losing end in terms of capturing a wide range of customers.
The A6/S6 has numerous (mechanical) flavors to choose from :
- V6 FWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
The RL has a total number of 1 (mechanical) flavor to choose from :
- V6 AWD.
By making available lots of powertrain/driveline choices to customers, it is obvious that the many variations of A6 will attract a wider range of buyers, and subsequently, can command a whole lot more sales than the single-powertrain/driveline-choice RL.
Note that the all-FWD-chassis Audi is also haunted by the same problem as the also all-FWD-chassis Acura. All high-power (>290hp) engine options MUST pair with AWD mechanics. There is no other alternative, with the lack of RWD chassis for Audi.
Similarly, imagine that if Audi had a RWD chassis, there wouldn't be any more problem pairing high-power engines with 2wd mechanics. Then the mechanical matrix would become even broader, such as hypothetically :
- V6 RWD
- V6 AWD
- high-power V6 RWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 RWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 RWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
This mechanical ordering matrix is now closely resemble those of BMW and MB, which use RWD on base vehicles and make available AWD as an optional upgrade. When this happens, I'm sure the A6 sales may even catch up with the 5-series, the E-class, and the GS too.
#2196
AZ Community Team
Let's begin by saying that I'm not suggesting that the RL isn't a lame duck at this point. Nor am I suggesting that the items below are enough to offset the perceived (or real) deficiencies of the car. But the RL still has differences from the rest of the lineup that are not obvious to most shoppers or even many of the people here. The RL (off the top of my head):
- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)
Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.
- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)
Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.
The interior and wood trim are one area that you definitely notice. Last time I was at the Acura dealer (getting tires mounted and a alignment), I spent most of my time looking at the RL and new TL in the showroom and the level of fir/finish of the materials in the RL is a couple steps above the TL 4G and many above my 3G TL. The switch detents and feel are much nicer than the other Acura's.
#2197
AZ Community Team
I don't know about the other posters, but I was talking also about engine options. Audi for example gives you Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, usually two or three of those offered with multiple engine choices, transmissions sometimes as well.
The TL and now only recently the TSX have that.
You also have to keep in mind most of those vehicles similarly equipped are considerably more expensive.
You're looking at nearly 60 thousand for an X5 with comparable power, leather, adaptive suspension, etc., and that still doesn't include things like navigation. The MDX is much more affordable because it starts at a similar price with the X5 but has sunroof and leather and many goodies that BMW nicks you for. Acura MDX Advances top out around 54K. I bet if you looked at the average transaction price for both there'd be about maybe 47K or something for the MDX (sticker prices, not deals), and at LEAST 10 grand more for the BMW. That's a big difference for a lot of people.
There's a good difference for the Mercedes as well. But the Mercedes is also older and aging, and sales tend to slow as a result.
I don't think rear drive is hurting the RL, so that throws the Audi out for me (it and the GS are aging as well so again sales are going to slow down).
The DTS still has a consumer base for those wanting big, cushy, premium AMERICAN branded wheels. There's also the fact that no one pays anywhere near sticker for the DTS, AND it has CONSIDERABLE portions sold as taxi/limo services and rentals. And again, I don't think front drive hurts its much, not in its market.
I agree.
I wasn't saying above simply "You're wrong", just that there's a lot more to sales figures than just appeal, but I bet you know that already.![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
The TL and now only recently the TSX have that.
You also have to keep in mind most of those vehicles similarly equipped are considerably more expensive.
You're looking at nearly 60 thousand for an X5 with comparable power, leather, adaptive suspension, etc., and that still doesn't include things like navigation. The MDX is much more affordable because it starts at a similar price with the X5 but has sunroof and leather and many goodies that BMW nicks you for. Acura MDX Advances top out around 54K. I bet if you looked at the average transaction price for both there'd be about maybe 47K or something for the MDX (sticker prices, not deals), and at LEAST 10 grand more for the BMW. That's a big difference for a lot of people.
There's a good difference for the Mercedes as well. But the Mercedes is also older and aging, and sales tend to slow as a result.
I don't think rear drive is hurting the RL, so that throws the Audi out for me (it and the GS are aging as well so again sales are going to slow down).
The DTS still has a consumer base for those wanting big, cushy, premium AMERICAN branded wheels. There's also the fact that no one pays anywhere near sticker for the DTS, AND it has CONSIDERABLE portions sold as taxi/limo services and rentals. And again, I don't think front drive hurts its much, not in its market.
I agree.
I wasn't saying above simply "You're wrong", just that there's a lot more to sales figures than just appeal, but I bet you know that already.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
The cost aspect of the MDX may be one considering it's 10-20% price differential. But at the same time I think Acura did a excellent job on the MDX creating a hybrid SUV catering to what people really wanted and use.
It's also a great design and on the 1G to offer 3 rows of seating which was a bold move on Honda/Acura's part which may have been a first for a mid-sized SUV. And having the seats fold flat versus being taken out was a design/engineering challenge.
On the RL, Acura went the Audi route by having a FWD platform and adapting the chassis/drivetrain but also having a very novel AWD system that was a first a few years ago. It still amuses me how many 4-matic and "X" suffixes I see on C/E/S and 3/5 series, mostly due to Audi.
#2198
AZ Community Team
While I disagree that the RWD is hurting the RL I do agree on your points of AWD versus RWD. Personally I would prefer a 2WD 5G TL to a AWD 5G TL. The weight and parasitic power loss is too much for dry conditions, in the snow/ice I compensate by driving like a grandmother
.
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
The lack of RWD chassis is definitely hurting RL and even the want-to-be-true-luxury Acura brand.
Why ?
Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.
AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD
- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.
Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :
V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.
I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.
A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !
Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.
Why ?
Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.
AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD
- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.
Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :
V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.
I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.
A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !
Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.
#2199
Go Big Blue!
You're looking at it too much from an engineering, enthusiast-type perspective.
The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.
Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.
The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:
- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.
I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.
Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.
Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
My wife is probably the typical RL car buyer. 51 year old female. Who, by the way, could care less about fwd, rwd. She definitly appreciates the AWD, but if only given a choice between fwd or rwd she would definitely -- hold on to something -- prefer fwd. Thats seems like blasphemy but its the truth and I suspect its the truth for most females because it's "safer". Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason. I given the main reasons I think the RL is a failure many times. I won't repeat myself again.
#2200
Race Director
Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason.
![Gold Cup](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/goldcup.gif)