Flapjackura

That camera tech, with the camera views in the gauge cluster, is indeed a great feature. Which Hyundai gives you in the Sonata Ltd but not in the G70. That's just plain weird. Clearly they define define luxury differently as well. They offer what you (and many others) view as a an essential luxury feature in a non-luxury vehicle and yet withhold it from their Genesis luxury brand.

ELIN

I was in a similar boat. I was not interested in pursuing German again so my shortlist also included Kia K5, Stinger GT, and the new hybrid Venza, believe it or not. My inability to get a good deal from Kia or Toyota ironically led me back to the "premium" Acura brand. I fully understand that if I maxed out any of those cars I listed and paid MSRP, it still would have been thousands less than an Acura (though not as much as you think since the negotiated TLX price was ~3k below invoice). The Acura deal worked out best for me since I got rid of the MDX through dealer buyout whereas Kia or Toyota told me there was no equity. Those Kia's deservedly are selling like crazy and the Venza is actually getting some of the Lexus crowd who are actually getting less with its variant.

Flapjackura

I would even say a loaded Venza, or top trim Accord, Camry or Sonata is a luxury vehicle lacking a luxury badge. For many - lacking a luxury badge alone is a deal-killer for qualifying a vehicle as a luxury vehicle. But then I guess I lack "discerning taste and high expectations", so what the Hell do I know? LOL.

someguy11

I haven't continued reading the thread to see if or how anyone felt about your post, but I'll provide my thoughts:
-Lexus has had renowned Mark Levinson systems for over a decade as a stereo upgrade. Audi has Bang and Olufsen. So let's not pretend ELS is some unrivaled and unparalleled amazing stereo.
-Leather bruh? We all have leather.
-The ES and TLX had heated/ventilated seats dating back 5 years to the prior gens of both and the ES had a standard heated wheel when the TLX 1G didn't even offer it. The 2G offering it is not unmatched amazing luxury.
-Loading kids into the backseat daily before/after daycare or school is not a nitpick. Yikes. I mean, that comment is way off the mark. Many of us are dads and my 1G TLX was fine for loading my kids in boosters every day, granted I had mud on the backs of my front seats, which ticked me off. If the 2G has a faux rear seat, shame on Acura. That is a dealbreaker to me and could seriously contribute to poor sales when your target demographic is a young professional future or current family man looking for a "step up" Accord - which is the subject of this thread - "why isn't this car selling...?" Hmm.

Edit:
To hammer that last bullet home, I love cars and I love driving nice cars that look cool and go fast. That's all fine and good. But I'm a dad first and every single day, regardless of the car I drive, I have to pick my kids up from school at 3:30pm. For years, I loaded them into the back of a TSX. Now they are old enough to let themselves in and buckle up, which I love. But they are still 10 and 8 and no matter how fast that car drives of how cool that car looks, my kids have to get in the backseat every single day for almost 10 more years. Yes, this should absolutely be a dealbreaker.

Flapjackura

"-Lexus has had renowned Mark Levinson systems for over a decade as a stereo upgrade. Audi has Bang and Olufsen. So let's not pretend ELS is some unrivaled and unparalleled amazing stereo."
I never said it was unparalleled or stood above.

"- The 2G offering it is not unmatched amazing luxury."
I never described it in those terms. I am simply defining it as luxury. There are different levels of luxury.

"-Loading kids into the backseat daily before/after daycare or school is not a nitpick. Yikes. I mean, that comment is way off the mark. Many of us are dads and my 1G TLX was fine for loading my kids in boosters every day, granted I had mud on the backs of my front seats, which ticked me off. If the 2G has a faux rear seat, shame on Acura. That is a dealbreaker to me and could seriously contribute to poor sales when your target demographic is a young professional future or current family man looking for a "step up" Accord - which is the subject of this thread - "why isn't this car selling...?" Hmm."
Fair point. Extremely fair point as a matter of fact, and as a single, non-Dad I'm sorry I used that as an arguing point. However, I don't agree that it's a deficiency that disqualifies it as a luxury vehicle. But as a deficiency when considering it for family transport, yep, hard-fail on Acura's part.

I was more commenting on the whole "poor sales" issues as opposed to directly comparing to the Accord. I actually used to own a 2016 Accord Coupe.

someguy11

My bad. I reread your post and realize you were defining luxury to you, not comparing tech to competition.

I love the Accord Coupe so much. I would have owned one if it weren't for my kids. Stick shift, V6, reliable and you could get them absolutely loaded as if it were were an Acura. God did I wish they would release it in convertible, or AWD, or both! Make it a TT killer. Ah well. Maybe I'll find a used Touring someday. I felt it was a huge mistake when they announced they were discontinuing it.

ELIN

8-10 year olds should be fine in the back of this TLX. If we're talking child seats, that's when I recommend against it due to the hassle of possibly bumping your head on the low roof.

Also, the rear seat space is about on par for this segment (which doesn't include the Accord). If memory serves, the back of the G70 is even tighter!

Flapjackura

My Accord was the automatic (EX) with CVT, 4 cylinder. But a fine looking car. Sheep in wolf's clothing. Received many compliments. Traded it for a Lexus UX 250H when my financial situation improved and basically endured 13 months of buyer's remorse. Everyone, family, neighbors and friends (except me) thought it was butt ugly. Long, boring story. Basically the Lexus was dull as paint and I felt like I could have done better. Decided to pay it off as fast as possible and finally to trade it while I could still get a great deal. Decision was not easy. I became very tired of the faces of Doug DeMuro, Joe Raiti, Alex on Autos, those little Car Confections guys, Matt Moran, (but not his wife - she's a cutey!) and Sofyan from Redline Reviews. My plan is to keep my TLX 2 for many years and so far I have no regrets.

fiatlux

To be fair to the G70, it's almost a whole foot shorter than the TLX.

ELIN

I made a note about maintaining EPA passenger volume to conform to "compact" status in the other thread but it applies here as well. Acura wants you to ignore the exterior so that the MSRP matches the interior volume and not the exterior dimensions.

pyrodan007

At that point, why not just go straight to a coupe like Tesla1856 did. At least you have better odds of finding parking with a smaller car. Those seats in the back are not just for show, should be fully usable.

Flapjackura

I actually think it is kind of amusing that the TLX 2's hood is long enough to land aircraft on, yet the back seats are not even sufficient for the comfort of the average 8 to 10 year old. But as a single guy with no kids, I would find that amusing, as opposed to frustrating. Perhaps, if there is ever a TLX 3, Acura will grudgingly adjust the proportions to match the superior amount of back row space in the Accord. They'll need to get over their marketing department's almost pathological efforts to distance the TLX from the Accord, first. Interestingly, they seem to be in no great similar hurry to do the same Honda-distancing with the ILX - which still shares platforms with the prior generation Civic.

ELIN

They probably used up all the R&D money for the TLX.

Flapjackura

Sure, because Honda is so cash-strapped. LOL. Seriously, they probably figure "Why bother?". The small luxury sedan market seems to be drying up faster than the mid-size market. Look at the Audi A3. Gorgeously redesigned for 2021 and still no sign of the thing in the US. Audi's in no hurry to import something to compete with an updated ILX that doesn't even exist yet. I also got tired of waiting for the 2021 Lexus IS 300 to show up in Chicago area dealerships. I would have preferred the smaller size. I would NOT have preferred the less efficient power train, or that getting one in blue without springing for the even comically less efficient IS 350 would be next to impossible. Blue looks fantastic on a Lexus but apparently I am the only person in the Chicago area who thinks so. You see the ES 350 in blue on dealership lots once in a while (once in a blue moon - ha ha ha ha). I strongly considered a blue ES 350 F Sport, with that buttery smooth V6. But just optioned up enough to have the Mark Levinson, it's more expensive and less overall well equipped than my A-Spec, and underneath the shouty F Sport exterior the ES 350 is kind of a "Grandpa" car. I test drove one. It didn't give me the "fizz", as James May would say. The TLX did.

leomio85

Acura is supposedly coming out with a new compact sedan with a Type-S variant in the next year or two. Whether or not they're going to axe that with the economic climate is yet to be seen. Heck, and this is just the pessimist in me creeping up, and I honestly hope it doesn't happen, but if standard TLX sales don't pick up in the next few months, they may simply axe the TLX Type-S and move to the RDX and MDX as carrying the Type-S performance and simply killing off the TLX and ILX. This is just me rambling though without any source or any real knowledge on the topic. It's too soon to tell if the TLX will be a flop or a success. I know Honda/Acura aren't the only ones who took a hit in Nov '20 compared to last year, tho apparently there was one less selling month this year compared to last, so at least for the TLX's case, the numbers aren't actually too terrible. I'm more surprised that RDX sales took that big of a hit. Then again, there's really not much to be gained by looking at one sales month.

Flapjackura

Interesting speculation. I'd guess that all the automakers are going to take November sales numbers with a grain of salt. Between the pandemic and a, to put it mildly, contentious election, I think many folks who were potential car buyers decided to hold off - to wait until December sales events, to wait for more incentives to kick in for brand new models like the TLX, to wait until they get a covid vaccination, to see what a new presidential regime does to the economy, and on and on. Me; I'm just impatient. LOL

ELIN

Not having a sedan would put Acura at a severe disadvantage so I disagree with you there.

fiatlux

Disadvantage in what sense? For Acura especially, it doesn't make as much sense for them to invest in sedans given that their primary market is North America where crossovers reign supreme. The Germans sell globally in markets where sedans are still popular, so it makes sense for them to develop global sedan models, but in Acura's case the ROI just isn't going to be as high as crossovers. You have a perfect storm where both demand and margins are higher for that type of product, and unless Acura has extra R&D money to spend (which we know they generally don't since they're a relatively small operation), each dollar spent on their sedans is one less dollar that could be spent on their moneymakers.

ELIN

Based on that logic, Ford should only make the F-Series and the Mustang, Toyota should only make Camrys, and Porsche should only make the Cayenne and the Macan.

Did you know that if Porsche hadn’t introduced the Cayenne in 2003, they most likely would have gone belly up? You need to have the “cool car” in addition to the “family car”. There’s not one brand out there that only makes the family car!

BEAR-AvHistory

As a money making machine they would be better off with a real body on frame pickup truck & loose the 4 door cars. Make a top end SUV like Suburban/Expedition with the truck frame as a base.

fiatlux

I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Ford has axed all their cars other than the Mustang, so you kind of illustrated my point.

As for Porsche, do you think an Acura sedan had the same pull as a 911 and Boxster? Those cars define the brand which helps sells the crossovers, and the crossovers is what pays for and subsidizes those cars to be developed. Are you suggesting that the TLX and ILX helps move MDXs and RDXs?

Flapjackura

I think another problem with luxury or premium sedan sales in the USA is that there has been so much compromise in the segment. There are some borderline great sedans, like the TLX, Avalon, Camry, A4, A3, 3-Series, C-Class, ES 350, IS; but even these are compromised in some way by attempting to appeal to a certain niche. TLX is compromised by lack of a practical back seat. German models are compromised (for those that care about it) by reliability issues. Lexus lags behind in tech. Infiniti lags behind in everything, as does the current Acura ILX. With its value proposition aspirations, Acura especially still has an opportunity to really kick the sedan market up a notch when and if they finally bring us the new ILX or whatever they decide to call their new compact sedan. A 3rd generation TLX can accomplish a great deal as well. Many have expressed the "close, but no cigar" nature of the TLX 2. Give us sedans, Acura, that offer current, competitive tech with German performance in the ILX, and the same things in the next TLX coupled with an Accord sized back row space, and they could generate some very decent sales, in my opinion.

ELIN

Looks to me like MDX/RDX are subsidizing TLX development (just like Porsche model).

Time will tell if Ford is making the right decision. The shift from fossil fuel to electric should accelerate the death of the sedan.

BEAR-AvHistory

Some numbers. FORD sells about 2500 F-150's a DAY. They also sell F250's on up, Rangers & Broncos. Not a bad plan for them to dump sedans. They have 3 series of SUV's to pick up the family car buyer.

Plus electric Mustangs & Hybrid & electric F-150's. Looks like a heads up marketing department.

fiatlux

If you look at the numbers, a car like the ILX makes almost no sense for Acura to build. Consider that last year, with a refreshed ILX, they sold a scant 14K units. Now, that might not seem like a lot (frankly, it isn't), but it actually outsold the outgoing A3 and S3, which Audi only sold 11K of. However...Audi sold 124K of those in Europe, and another 84K in China for a total of 219K...in the final year of that generation. Yes, the final model year outsold the refreshed ILX more than 15-to-1. Acura isn't in Europe, and while they do sell cars in China, they don't sell the ILX because they'd have to import them from Ohio, and as we know imports into China are subject to big tariffs (in this case, 25%). So, I don't begrudge Acura for not investing in the ILX, and if they do, I really hope for their sake they heavily base it off the 11G Civic because the ROI just isn't there for something bespoke. There clearly isn't an appetite in the US for compact luxury sedans as demonstrated by the lackluster sales figures across all manufacturers, and unlike the competitors, Acura doesn't have the luxury of being able to recoup that investment in other markets that do buy these kind of cars.

ELIN

According to TrueCar for my area, the TLX A-Spec AWD can be had for ~$700 below invoice. I was actually surprised the gap b/w invoice and MSRP wasn't bigger for this car.

Colorado Guy AF Ret.

Wow...kinda shocked and really surprised at that number. I really thought the new TLX would do better than that out of the gate. But, being a long time Acura owner
of many cars and SUV's, I find the TLX "missed the mark" and it's been hard for me to put my finger on exactly where. Not saying the "quality etc" isn't there, but,
just the overall "design/style"...that seems out of whack for me. That long hood is just too much...the overall proportions are just "off." IMHO. I liked my '18 TLX A-Spec
for it's size, design, etc. Not too much to complain about. Aura talks about this new TLX as low, etc. SO WAS MY '18. It looked great, esp after I put some nice wheels
on it. But, with that said...I am probably going to get a Type S. Hmmm???

I've always said, no one makes a "perfect vehicle" but, IF the "like list" is much longer than the "oh crap list" then I tend to go with that. We will never get
everything we want and like in a vehicle. I try and come close as possible.

Colorado Guy AF Ret.

[QUOTE=BEAR-AvHistory;16665087]Some numbers. FORD sells about 2500 F-150's a DAY. They also sell F250's on up, Rangers & Broncos. Not a bad plan for them to dump sedans. They have 3 series of SUV's to pick up the family car buyer.

True that Ford's bread and butter are the trucks..for sure. But, I've always thought that some day when and IF that market really slows down..and people are wanting more cars,
well, Ford is screwed. The Fusion sold well and was a pretty good car. The Mustang is the flag ship...draw to Ford and always has been...I've owned 11 of them.
The foreign manufacturers didn't go the route of Ford and Chevy by dumping cars. I think they are smarter than our co's. You don't necessarily need a ton of different
car models, just have some darn good ones in 3 key pricing categories. Lower costing, mid range, and high end. SUV's will most likely stay around, but, the BIG ones will
go away...fuels mandates coming and costs, etc. Smaller to mid size should dominate..as they do now. Then there is the "electric storm" coming on...and that will affect some things.

But, quickly, on that subject of electric vehicles. What is going to FUEL the electricity to charge up all the electric batteries??? Wind and solar AIN"T gonna do it!! Power plants that
will be needed to make eclectricity and move it around are going to be powered by...what exactly?? When the far left wants to ban all fossil fuels....OK...now...what powers our planes, ships,
military vehicles, etc, etc. NO..batteries are NOT going to do all that. Gonna need some gas, diesel, jet fuel as always. Just a fact. They'll hit "that wall" IF they get deep in to it and realize,
OH..airplanes..ships, etc. WE FORGOT ABOUT THEM!! Again..PLUS all the gas powered vehicles we now have are not going to be replaced by batteries. Just not feasible.
I'll be long gone when all this hits the so called "know it alls" that say we MUST BE CARBON NEUTRAL BY....XXXX DATE!!!
THEN AGAIN...WHEN DOES THE EARTH RUN OUT OF OIL??? GOT TO HAPPEN SOME TIME.

OK...I better stop...but, it IS something we all should take a real hard look at and apply common sense. Yes, electric veh. have come a long way. I get that. But, won't be able to totally
replace our current fuel burning engine needs..whether airplanes, ships, heavy mil. veh....trains..forgot about them. So, other type of fuel sources will be needed or invented. LONG after
we are pushing up daisies!!

ELIN

When that Electric Hummer comes out, that will probably be the next big celebrity ride (possibly pushing out the Escalade or whatever the Kardashians are driving these days!).
Who doesn't want 1000 HP?

BEAR-AvHistory

Ford will not be screwed they will just build cars if thats what the market wants. They had no problem shifting from cars to Jeeps, trucks, tanks & B24 bombers back to cars. I think of the US car makers they are the most agile at gauging & engaging new market trends.

Light trucks are also GM's biggest profit source & they have already canned Pontiac, Oldsmobile.

fiatlux

One other thing to keep in mind is that Ford isn't abandoning cars globally, just in the US. So if for whatever reasons American tastes shift back to 3-box cars (which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon), it's not like they'll have to scramble to redesign a bunch of new models from scratch.

KeithL

Yeah, but the longer they go without designing a fresh car will take them time to get into the game as well as come up with a fresh now car to compete.

fiatlux

I think it’ll be fine. As I mentioned already, the cars are still sold in Europe, and the platforms and powertrains are still being built to support the crossover models, so it’s not like it will take them that long to pivot and spin things back up if Americans ever get back into sedans.

BEAR-AvHistory

In 1939 this was a farm field, in 1940 it was the largest enclosed building in the world. They started building B24 aircraft in 1941 by 1943 it was producing 1 B24 heavy bomber every minute. After the war it was switched to automobile production.


As mentioned FORD still builds cars in other markets. If sedan sales come back they will shift production to the USA.

Legend2TL

Not quite, Willow Grove produced a B-24 every 63 minutes almost meeting the original extremely lofty goal of one per hour.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collect...063%20minutes.

BEAR-AvHistory

producing 1 B24 heavy bomber every minute.
My bad, old farts brain fart - excuse 79 next week.

Legend2TL

happens to all of us, Happy Birthday

TSX69

https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...ng-2020-finish

Trucks & Electrified Vehicles Propel American Honda to Strong 2020 Finish

• Release
• Photos

January 5, 2021
American Honda Q4Total


“While 2020 was a year of unprecedented challenges, through the efforts of our Honda and Dealer associates and the continuing loyalty of our customers, we were able to deliver 1.3 million vehicles,” said Dave Gardner, executive vice president of National Operations at American Honda. “As the world continues to cope with the global pandemic, we remain optimistic that things will improve soon and look forward to the upcoming launches of critical all-new products like the Honda Civic and Acura MDX.”





BRAND REPORT
Sales Highlights

Honda wrapped a globally-challenging year on a positive note with a 4.2% December gain for trucks, plus a new record for electrified vehicles and a double record for Passport.

• Led by strong sales of the CR-V Hybrid (24,406) and Accord Hybrid (18,229), Honda posted record sales of electrified vehicles for the 3rd straight year, totaling 62,982 in 2020.
• Passport set a new all-time annual sales record of nearly 40,000 units, plus record December sales of 4,344 units.
• CR-V remained Honda’s best-selling vehicle, as sales topped 300,000 units for the 8th straight year, on sales of 333,502 units.
• Civic posted strong sales of 261,225 in 2020 to lead all compact cars and remain the best-selling model to millennial and first-time buyers.

Model Notes
The boldly redesigned 2021 Ridgeline signals a new design direction to more effectively communicate the rugged capabilities of Honda light trucks and SUVs.


The Civic Type R LE just launched as the ultimate street-legal Honda, the perfect capstone to the unparalleled success of the retail best-selling 10th gen Civic.



BRAND REPORT
Sales Highlights

Acura completed 2020 with strong December sales performances, both at the gateway to the lineup with ILX and at the top with MDX which posted its best month since August 2018. 2021 promises to be an exciting year with the arrival of the 4th-gen MDX and the return of Type-S performance variants.

• ILX enjoyed another strong month in December with sales of 1,417 units, gaining 8.6% for the month.
• Acura SUV sales topped 100,000 units for the 7th straight year.
• RDX sales surpassed the 50,000 mark for the 6th consecutive year with total sales of 52,785 units in 2020.

Model Notes
The all-new 2021 TLX is the quickest, best-handling and most well-appointed sedan in Acura history, and just earned the highest safety rating from IIHS: TOP SAFETY PICK+.


As the new brand flagship, the 2022 MDX represents a quantum leap forward as the most premium, performance-focused and technologically sophisticated Acura SUV ever.





# # #

leomio85

I was just wondering when they were going to release these numbers. Hopefully this is a fluke due to the uptick in Covid in most places. RDX sales took a decent hit too. Accord was down as well and the announcement of the new Civic I'm sure hurt sales until they go on fire sale. Still, for being a brand new model, it's not a good sign that they're not moving. Perhaps it's the fact that a lot of people are holding out on what the Type-S is all about? Maybe people just don't like it. Or, it's just not hitting the mark in value proposition, which has been Acura's go-to.

dzionny_dzionassi

Problem is...this car is nothing special at this point. Interior is nice and it looks not bad. Thats about it.
The most significant problem of current TLX is a back seat. If they could made it little bigger, like in 4g TL, it would be perfect. And it is slow... As a previous 3g TL-S owner, I hope that TLX-S will be performance competitive and priced right. But i doubt it, Acura lost its value with this generation TLX.