04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

The ears only want to hear what they want, as the eyes only want to see what they want..

BEAR-AvHistory

Hey, regarding the review, just got a PM that lard butt actually climbed into the trunk to show how roomy it is. Very professional

BEAR-AvHistory

Just too bad they killed the DOHC V8TT BlackWing engine. C8Z06 already has thousands of reservations for the Z06 DOHC V8TT a car which will not be out before the 2023 MY. The BlackWing could have taken a bite out of the German big sedans using that engine & moved Cadillac to a level playing field with them.

Nexx

Cadillac isnt taking a bite out of anyone and especially the Germans.

mike03a3

Yup - what Bear said. When I bought my '07 Type-S 6MT the BMW completion was the 335i. The BMW had a turbocharged I6 with 300hp / 300 torque compared to the Type-S 286hp / 256 torque. Not really a contest for performance (sound familiar), but the 335 started out $1K more expensive and required another 4K in options to get the goodies standard on the Type-S. That was a big difference considering the Type-S started at $38,795 and went down from there based on your negotiating skills. If you couldn't knock off 3.5 / 4K you really weren't trying. So, nothing has really changed. Except the ADM thanks to COVID chip shortages.
The Type-S is a really nice, inexpensive, sporty sedan that has (almost) all the bells and whistles that competes with a BMW that will steal your lunch money at the drag strip and your wallet at the dealer.

Back when I owned a Speed Shop (back before the dinosaurs died) I had a big sign over the counter: Speed cost money! How fast do you want to go?

You youngsters can ask your father what a speed shop was.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Where have all those speed shop gone ? The younger generations no longer interested in modding their cars now ?

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

If by speed shops you mean Autozone, pepboys, amazon, ebay, facebook market place and alibaba.. yeah. sure.

BEAR-AvHistory

Pretty much consolidated into a number of large mail order operations like Summit & Jegs for guys who still do their own work. What are now the local operations are tuners, builders & installers. Also machine shops are still pretty local although you can buy already machined parts like heads from the mail order operations. The manufactures are mostly mega companies.

The 7,300+ SEMA member companies do about $50,000,000,000 a year in sales.

Legend2TL

Let's stay on topic please being the Type-S reviews, Car Talk is a great forum for random topics.

FactoryMatt

So the question is where does acura go from here given the weight overage and back seat constraints; the objective value wanes. It needs the advance pkg (hud, etc) for close to its current price point. And somehow needs to lose 200lbs.

If acura is making this big push to reinvigorate their brand and BOTH the integra and the tlx-S make lukewarm* impressions, where does that leave the brand? Curious how the MDX-S does....three points make a trend.

*i know the TLX-S works great in practice for its intended purpose and it looks Great, but the nuance and subtlely will be lost on the masses and revenue will suffer for it. 4000lbs, 400hp. Livable back seats. Hud + other tech. Sub 56K. Enough volume to remove ADM so they get out on the street and people see them. Thats the formula.

mike03a3

I honestly don't think the average buyer will ever realize it's overweight and under powered. Those facts are just nits for people like us to pick. The average buyer will love the looks, love the fact that it has a peppy V-6 and rides and handles great They will be delighted with their new Type-S because, unlike many here (including me) they haven't spent the past few years eagerly awaiting a new Type-S while reading all the marketing hype. And no matter what Acura says, they aren't likely to be cross shopping BMWs or Audis. If they, like my wife and daughter, are loyal to Honda/Acura but want a V-6 instead of a four banger, then the Type-S is their only choice.

As far as the future and your formula, it isn't going to get better. They literally can't get there from where they are.
It weighs too much because of the RWD look design, with all the extra length up front and resulting weight. It's longer than a 5 series BMW. They can't fix the size, and they can't afford to fix the weight. A 5 series BMW body is a combination of steel, aluminum and composites to minimize weight while maximizing strength. Putting the Type-S on a diet with new materials will drive the price up to BMW levels.
They can't do much about the power because the engine is optimized for throttle response. The intake ports are very small, which is why the horsepower curve is so flat and the redline low. Look at the drag races. It runs out of breath halfway down the track. Most people will love the response and launch because those small intakes keep the turbo spinning and the flow up at the bottom end. It won't bother most drivers because the aren't going to be racing at speeds much above the posted limits. Tuners can machine the ports a bit, put on a slightly larger turbo and throttle body and raise the boost pressures. But Acura will never do that because it would actually slightly reduce response and greatly reduce reliability.

Maybe at the mid model refresh they could introduce a Type SC, with aluminum hood, trunk and door skins to save weight and strip out some bells and whistles to save a few more pounds. But the price will he higher not lower. And it may not help enough.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

The MDX will always sell well. I believe the MDX type-s has more going for it vs the TLX-S. It has more luxury features that are on par with it's competition including air suspension. However, as long as the marketing behind push the MDX-S to be this X5M or GLE63s killer, it should do well. I read somewhere it will start in the high 60K's. We all know by the time it hits dealer lots, that's no longer the case, especially since the MDX is one of their best seller. In my opinion, the 3.0T should be the standard engine for the MDX, perhaps slightly detuned and for the Type-S to have the more powerful version (more than the TLX-S). At this point, we are all aware of the TLX-S performance and with the same setup including the additional weight of the MDX, performance will be lack luster. It's should be marketed as a luxurious 3rd row SUV and not one that's high performance.

Mike, you pretty much nailed it to the T.

The misconception tossed around quiet often (2nd gen TLX FB page) that the engine has forged internals, thus there's plenty of room for a tune to add substantial power. Too many have this belief that a tune will magically put the TLX-S into a category it's not going to be in. There's a lot more to that puzzle that is not being discussed. Ideally, the best bang for buck would be a reliable and mild reflash tune with a catted downpipe. Gain some noticeable power, while staying more reliable but not invisible to issues. The other elephant in the room would be the transmission holding back the power.

FactoryMatt

this is probably true. im amazed at how much low end torque even the 4 banger has, with only a square bore/stroke compared to GTI motor. close to max torque at 1500rpm on a 86mm stroke? small ports and fancy cam work i guess.

BEAR-AvHistory

Good words especially about throttle response. BMW has pretty much killed turbo lag but there was still enough that if you knew you could feel it. Its the nature of the beast. Go small for crisp throttle at low RPM or go home. Unfortunately there is no free lunch, the small turbo & port engine is choked & can't provide as much air as required so as revs rise it looses top end power.

The solution costs money if you want good street level response & a strong top end out of the same package. Spend some money & think outside the box. Ditch the 8ZF torque converter & replace it with an electric motor, supporting hardware & software. Maximum torque of a universal motor (starter motors) occurs at zero rotation rate (when stalled) This bridges the gap from where an ICE/Turbo with a larger turbo & ports has zip power until it spools up & is producing enough boost to get the engines RPMs up to its torque band, usually over 1800RPM.

F23A4

Just as the TLX-S is promoted as an M3/C63 competitor, I dont think the MDX-S will be promoted as an alternative to the X5M/GLE63; probably shouldnt be pitched as an X5 M50i/GLE 53 AMG either, though performance shouldn't be too far off from that of the latter.

But I do agree with the rest of your statement (above), especially with respect to the J30AC being the standard motor for the MDX. As much as I love my 22 MDX and the J35A motor, that same motor (along with an awful trackpad) is it's only glaring shortcoming; the output was sufficient in the 3G MDX but, comes up a little short in the 4G as you REALLY have to wind it out for it to perform. It actually makes me wonder if they should have gone with some variation of the K20C4 from the RDX, particularly as it carries more torque and at much lower RPMs. (Admittedly, I'm not sure if the K20C4 would compromise the MDX's current 5,000 towing capacity.)

fiatlux

There's no way the performance will be anywhere close to the GLE 53 AMG, let alone the V8TT X5 M50i with over 500hp. The MDX Type S is going to be more competitive with the X5 40i, GLE 450, and Q7 55, and even then unless it gets a serious diet or a bump in power over the TLX Type S, it's going to be slower than all three in a straight line. The X5 40i is already faster 0-60 than the TLX Type S, and the MDX version is going to be around 500lb heavier. We'll be lucky if it's faster than the GLE 450, which is the slowest of the bunch.

It'll no doubt handle better than all three of those...but who's buying a 3 row crossover for its handling?

I know it's not going to be sexy for Acura to market this car against the second-lowest trims for their competition, but in terms of conventional performance that is where this car will land.

F23A4

MB reports that the GLE 53 AMG runs 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, where Car and Driver ran the old MDX Sport Hybrid to 60 in 5.7 seconds. Now, I fully expect the MDX-S to shave few tenths off that MDX SH 0-60 time, which should put that in the ballpark of the MB mentioned, no?

...and I refuse to acquire an SUV (of any sort) that cant handle like a sedan. Am I in a minority, probably...but, don't really care if it offends anyone else's "sensibilities".


EDIT: Actually, I'll go back on that first point. Did a lookup on the RLX SH and noted that it runs to 60 the same as the TLX-S. So, there's a probability that the same could apply to the MDX...in which case you may be right.

fiatlux

Mercedes underrates their cars performance; C&D clocked a GLE53 Coupe (basically same car as the SUV version) at 4.7s.

While it would make sense for an MDX Type S to be a lot faster than the SH MDX, the reality is that it gets the same powertrain as the TLX Type S in a package that's 500lb heavier.

Frankly, it's becoming patently clear that the Type S moniker is not about performance at all, at least not in the conventional sense. I'm beginning to think there's a reason why Ikeda keeps calling Type S a "sports derivative" rather than a "performance variant". I had thought that in typical Acura fashion they're just making up a new marketing buzzword, but perhaps he's just being honest about what it is; a sportier version that's more about driving enjoyment, and not about conventional performance.

F23A4

In an ideal setting, the Type S powertrain would be in an A-Spec and the Type S would be something a bit more substantial than it is. To that end, it is what it is when it comes to all things Type S.

BEAR-AvHistory

My sensibilities terribly offended by your toxic remarks about my Silverado pickup err Suburban SUV not handling like a sedan. Hating on a poor handy capped truck durative on not having sedan like handling is just not fair. Also I know 0-60 in 6 seconds is a bit slow but 3 tons is a bit much to get moving, anyway life is not all about traffic light drag races or living it a 1/4 mile at a time.

FactoryMatt

@fiatlux , good post. honda has always been more about driving feel and enjoyment than outright magazine racing. noone should be surprised by this.

BEAR-AvHistory

Wonder if they are holding out for an R series or whatever marketing wants to call it. Base block & internals are all good just a new cylinder head needs to be cast matching a larger Turbo or Turbos, reprogramed ECU & you have 500bhp Type R. Tack $5000 on the MSRP & you undercut all the other mid sized performance SUV's

F23A4

If it makes you feel any better, I thought I represented you well in my post in the other thread. .... that I didnt get a like.

BEAR-AvHistory

Was just messing around with the SUV thing. If I did not need a hauler would never get something so big. In the past recommended two AWD Pilots to family which they bought. Will recheck the post.

If its the one tied to TSX69 post he is on my ignore list so I skipped the responses. BTW do you know someone who wears glasses?

fiatlux

At this point I can't imagine Acura getting any more money to continue developing a new gas engine, especially not something that is going to be very low volume. The only way Acura is going to be able to play with the big boys in terms of outright speed is through their EVs, but currently they're even farther behind the competition in that arena. It's mindboggling how a company like Honda who has such a strong focus on R&D and engineering managed to fall so far behind. They're able to develop jets, yet they can't develop EVs economically without resorting to rebadging a GM product?

F23A4

Not for nothing, I was tempted this past weekend with the idea of getting this gently used Suburban I came across. I'll admit: the thing makes up for a lack of handing with some serious utility. Wifey and I are considering an RV purchase and for the size we're looking at, the MDX we have will be an "insufficient tow vehicle".

BEAR-AvHistory

Thought this piece from MB on the GLE53AMG was interesting. Seems like all the Germans are handling lag in a similar fashion.

"The turbocharged six features a 48-volt motor-generator that delivers the 3.0-liter a silky smooth auto stop-start system and also fills in the gaps between nine-speed automatic transmission's gear changes. The 48-volt system also powers an electric supercharger that helps feed boost before the turbocharger wakes up. The hybrid/supercharger combo yields a low-rpm surge that helps get the 5322-pound GLE off the line with satisfying authority."

Edward'TLS

This is exactly the reason behind Acura releasing two MDX Type-S trims.

One lighter-weight base trim Type-S for the fastest acceleration times, and one fully loaded (= heaviest and slowest) Advance trim Type-S for those buyers who complaint about missing features that are already available on the top-line Advance trim 3.5L-V6 MDX.

Can't have the cake and eat it too. Either a missing features but fastest SUV, or a fully loaded but slower SUV.

alpha0

At 4700+ lb, 100 lb here and there will not make any significant difference to acceleration.

ELIN

I think we're really kidding ourselves if we think the difference in trim is going to make a big impact on 0-60.

The MDX Type S will check a lot of boxes on paper and I'll leave it at that.

BEAR-AvHistory

FWIW the Expedition has about 1000lb advantage in tow rating against mine. Mine will carry more stuff inside. New 2020 IRS version of the Suburban is out now don't know its ratings. That said the Chevy 6.2L 420BHP has a lot of grunt for pulling & they will be/are offering a Corvette style supercharger for it in the new series.

If you go to a big SUV either will work well. Had the FORD for a lot of years over 180,000 miles on. Some easy to fix or maintain things but no major mechanical issues. Only unusual fix is I recovered the leather seats, two large sheep dogs & replaced the seat coolers while the skins were off.

Tesla1856

I've been wondering about that myself.

I think maybe they have gotten too diversified. Motorcycles, engines (lawn-mowers, tractors, etc.), jets. "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. Now that high-end vehicles are so high-tech and complicated, seems the other big companies that just make vehicles are doing better. Plus, the others are always thinking of making their vehicles better and come-up with nice new Concept Vehicles. Maybe Honda is instead working on a new jet or drone (who knows).

And this thing with Acura trailing behind Honda and kinda just doing their own thing (engineering wise). In my mind, (I wrongly) have Honda and Acura more "connected" than that.

bilirubin

Just to get us back on topic (sorry), here's a track review of the Type S, overall quite positive and it did quite well consider the other cars were modded...

Tesla1856

Agreed.

My guess is it's more about profit margins and keeping MSRP low. They also seem to like to build with fairly limited option-packages, and few if any ala-carte options.

Legend2TL

Thx, never heard of that channel before but kinda insightful perhaps they fabricate some components. Here's the screen capture from their track results to their other mod'ed cars they've tested

Honda430

Definitely can’t acuse them of being Honda/Acura fanboys. The expressed lack on foreknowledge of the vehicle seemed genuine. And, they ran those laps in the all seasons.

F23A4

Seems like all TLX models come somewhat undertired. That said, seems like yet another reviewer who was 'meh' at first but was ultimately sold on the Type S.

mapleloaf

"It'll no doubt handle better than all three of those...but who's buying a 3 row crossover for its handling?"

More will buy for handling than the straight line speed you seem fixated with.

Kense

Nobody buys a 3rd row 4300+ pound SUV for the handling LOL

FactoryMatt

Right. This is why everyone still buys suburbans and explorers and conversion vans.

Nobody cares about fun.