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But the type s is supposed to be about performance. I don’t understand why some of you say people don’t care? Aren’t those the people who will buy the Regular A spec? It looks nearly identical. The type s was supposed to be for those who do care about 0-60 or speed etc. Acura said the type s will have blistering speed so why wouldn’t people looking at a type s care about that?
to the average consumer the type s is plenty fast and my have blistering speed in other opinions too. If you are use to speed then this car is not the car for you. If type s was faster in every metric compared to the s5 I still would take the s5 over the type s, just as I would take the type s over the s4.
it’s all marketing man. Benz states it’s the best or nothing. Are they the best? IMO no but to others you but it is.
Agreed that people want what they want. Which is the reason why the ADM is still in effect and not entirely killed off by a handful of YT videos.
The true victims are the ones that stuck with Acura all this time but forced to pay ADM to get what they want. The ADM is the price of Acura loyalty.
agreed. I have absolutely zero respect for any dealership that place is a ADM fee. I mean really how much 5K affecting your finances? I think these fees discredit dealerships more and Acura should force them to stop.
to the average consumer the type s is plenty fast and my have blistering speed in other opinions too. If you are use to speed then this car is not the car for you. If type s was faster in every metric compared to the s5 I still would take the s5 over the type s, just as I would take the type s over the s4.
it’s all marketing man. Benz states it’s the best or nothing. Are they the best? IMO no but to others you but it is.
Playing Devil’s advocate, some may say that though it may not really be the best (highly subjective), at least it’s making a valiant effort to meet that claim.
But the type s is supposed to be about performance. I don’t understand why some of you say people don’t care? Aren’t those the people who will buy the Regular A spec? It looks nearly identical. The type s was supposed to be for those who do care about 0-60 or speed etc. Acura said the type s will have blistering speed so why wouldn’t people looking at a type s care about that?
^-- this! I always loved the Aspec. It didn't promise to be anything spectacular for performance, but it's a fantastic appearance package. Type S actually did promise to be spectacular. I built both on Acura website to compare pricing.
Tech+Aspec = $47k.
Tech+Advance = $49k
Type S = $53k. So I guess it's only $6k more for the decent performance upgrade at MSRP. ADM makes it not such a great deal.
While doing that, I noticed Acura claims the Type S is "The most powerful and capable Acura sedan ever." They must have forgotten about their own 2018 RLX Sport Hybrid.
2021 Type S ................................... 2018 RLX Sport Hybrid
355 hp ........................................... 377 hp
354 lb-ft ......................................... 341 lb-ft; 1.1-kWh lithium-ion
60 mph: 4.9 sec .............................. 60 mph: 4.9 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph .......... 1/4-mile: 13.6 sec @ 102 mph
21/19/24 mpg ................................. 28/28/29 mpg
^-- this! I always loved the Aspec. It didn't promise to be anything spectacular for performance, but it's a fantastic appearance package. Type S actually did promise to be spectacular. I built both on Acura website to compare pricing.
Tech+Aspec = $47k.
Tech+Advance = $49k
Type S = $53k. So I guess it's only $6k more for the decent performance upgrade at MSRP. ADM makes it not such a great deal.
While doing that, I noticed Acura claims the Type S is "The most powerful and capable Acura sedan ever." They must have forgotten about their own 2018 RLX Sport Hybrid.
2021 Type S ................................... 2018 RLX Sport Hybrid
355 hp ........................................... 377 hp
354 lb-ft ......................................... 341 lb-ft; 1.1-kWh lithium-ion
60 mph: 4.9 sec .............................. 60 mph: 4.9 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph .......... 1/4-mile: 13.6 sec @ 102 mph
21/19/24 mpg ................................. 28/28/29 mpg
It's worse than that when you consider what people actually pay instead of comparing A-Spec MSRP to Type S MSRP. Back in Oct 2020, I negotiated a price of <$43k for my '21 TLX A-Spec w/SHAWD. If you're lucky, you "only" pay MSRP on the Type S for a $10k gap. If you're unlucky, then the gap can be $10k+ADM!
I'll take the A-Spec all day any day for that much real-world pricing difference!
to the average consumer the type s is plenty fast and my have blistering speed in other opinions too. If you are use to speed then this car is not the car for you. If type s was faster in every metric compared to the s5 I still would take the s5 over the type s, just as I would take the type s over the s4.
it’s all marketing man. Benz states it’s the best or nothing. Are they the best? IMO no but to others you but it is.
Performance versions of mass produced models aren’t for the “Average consumer”. The A spec is. The average consumer doesn’t buy the M340i or M3, S4 , RS, AMG etc. Those are a small niche segment who Acura was going for with the Type S otherwise they wouldn’t have made it. It’s not plenty fast for 2021. Maybe 10 years ago not today. It’s too slow for what it’s supposed to be.
I think this is going to be a perpetual issue with the Type S. Even if it's rare simply for lack of production, having the Type S badge makes it special to many. Most of the people buying these aren't watching the scathing reviews like the one from TH, who as politely as possible, called it out for being a nice daily driver that happens to be too underpowered, overweight and lazy to be a real sports sedan. But the badge means it's faster and better than the regular TLX. If I were looking at an Advance and a Type S side-by-side, I know which one I would buy. Well, maybe not. It would be hard to spend MSRP or MSRP+ADM on this car. Fast forward 3 or 5 years, same two cars side-by-side, the Advance will be a dime-a-dozen premium/luxury/value family sedan, while the Type S will be a Type S.
Let's be real for a second. When I see 3G TLs on the street, I look at the rims or trunk to see if it's a Type S. And it's cooler to see ones that are than aren't. It's just a cooler, rarer car. No reason people won't be thinking the same thing as me with the TLX Type S in 10 or 20 years from now.
I still look at the rims on the base to see if they might be 6MT
I still believe Acura has an excellent platform to grow on. Just look at how the m340l and the c43 transition. That c450 wasn’t a stellar car but now look it and it’s near the top of its class. Imagine if Acura reduced the weight and add it just a few extra horsepower and torque, this thing has the potential to be surpass the competition. Will that ever happen? Who knows but i never expected Acura to outperform much of the competition as they have a history of being conservative. I still think the type S is a better daily than the S4 even though it won’t out perform it.
That will not happen. the only way to significantly diet the car is exotic materials. That will drive the price up. The engine should be able to take a decent amount of additional power. Problem is they have a fuel economy issue right now at 355/354 + the transmission is suspect. They also can do something right now reprogram the transmission. Even in paddle mode the computer was forcing upshifts.
My car which will remain nameless has plastic front fenders (all mine going back to 2011 had them). Doors, hood, trunk aluminum & if it was a coupe carbon fiber roof. Differences of opinion are why we have so many different cars to choose from.
Performance versions of mass produced models aren’t for the “Average consumer”. The A spec is. The average consumer doesn’t buy the M340i or M3, S4 , RS, AMG etc. Those are a small niche segment who Acura was going for with the Type S otherwise they wouldn’t have made it. It’s not plenty fast for 2021. Maybe 10 years ago not today. It’s too slow for what it’s supposed to be.
To be fair, the Type S (and M340i, S4, etc) are mid tier models. IMO they're just rebranded to be more "performance" but they're still just the regular car with a larger engine and sometimes a sport pack. BMW sold plenty of 330i and 335i's back when it was the middle child between the 325i/328i and the M3, so I think it's still something that average consumers will buy. The Type S is in a weird spot because it's at the top of the pantheon for Acura, but in actuality it's really in that mid-tier spot.
Playing Devil’s advocate, some may say that though it may not really be the best (highly subjective), at least it’s making a valiant effort to meet that claim.
So far would never buy a Benz, just don't care for the overall package. That said, I believe its the premium car of the premium cars.
To be fair, the Type S (and M340i, S4, etc) are mid tier models. IMO they're just rebranded to be more "performance" but they're still just the regular car with a larger engine and sometimes a sport pack. BMW sold plenty of 330i and 335i's back when it was the middle child between the 325i/328i and the M3, so I think it's still something that average consumers will buy. The Type S is in a weird spot because it's at the top of the pantheon for Acura, but in actuality it's really in that mid-tier spot.
If that were the case you’d see a ton of them on the road vs the 330, A4 etc. You hardly see those cars in comparison. The average consumer doesn’t even understand what those cars do or mean or care about their performance. The ones who care go for the bigger engine.
To be fair, the Type S (and M340i, S4, etc) are mid tier models. IMO they're just rebranded to be more "performance" but they're still just the regular car with a larger engine and sometimes a sport pack. BMW sold plenty of 330i and 335i's back when it was the middle child between the 325i/328i and the M3, so I think it's still something that average consumers will buy. The Type S is in a weird spot because it's at the top of the pantheon for Acura, but in actuality it's really in that mid-tier spot.
There is another small slice in there the almost an M car. More power than the standard model & bits & pieces of the running gear from the M cars. 330Ci ZHP-235BHP, 335is-320BHP 7DCT, 435MPPK- 335HP, 440MPPSK-355BHP. Generally offered around the time of the mid cycle refresh. Low volume the 335is IIRC sold about 10,000 units 5000 coups & 5000 convertibles spread over 3 or 4 years. Don't know the volume on the other three but had all four.
If they continue the trend the M340 could push 400BHP+ now that the real M cars are on another planet.
If that were the case you’d see a ton of them on the road vs the 330, A4 etc. You hardly see those cars in comparison. The average consumer doesn’t even understand what those cars do or mean or care about their performance. The ones who care go for the bigger engine.
Maybe it depends on the region. In California it seems like the M340i and S4 are as popular, or more popular, than their base breathren. I don't frequently see the base models other than on the crossovers. The only exception is the IS; I see a lot more IS200t and IS300 than the IS350.
Maybe it depends on the region. In California it seems like the M340i and S4 are as popular, or more popular, than their base breathren. I don't frequently see the base models other than on the crossovers. The only exception is the IS; I see a lot more IS200t and IS300 than the IS350.
Not at all, I hardly see any M340i's or M3/4's in comparison to the amount of 330's I see. There are so many 330i's and A4's etc it's crazy. You may see more of the performance versions than other states but it's nowhere near the base models of cars here. By other states standards you'll see more M340's and M3's etc but it's still not that many.
Not at all, I hardly see any M340i's or M3/4's in comparison to the amount of 330's I see. There are so many 330i's and A4's etc it's crazy. You may see more of the performance versions than other states but it's nowhere near the base models of cars here. By other states standards you'll see more M340's and M3's etc but it's still not that many.
Maybe I need to get out of my bubble . Someone in my neighborhood has been driving around this gem:
LOL I see you're over in San Francisco, looks like the Richmond District? The city isn't reality. In your case you may see more M3's than honda civics.
I still believe Acura has an excellent platform to grow on. Just look at how the m340l and the c43 transition. That c450 wasn’t a stellar car but now look it and it’s near the top of its class. Imagine if Acura reduced the weight and add it just a few extra horsepower and torque, this thing has the potential to be surpass the competition. Will that ever happen? Who knows but i never expected Acura to outperform much of the competition as they have a history of being conservative. I still think the type S is a better daily than the S4 even though it won’t out perform it.
It would be nice to see Acura grow on this platform. If they could drop 300 lbs and add 30hp/30tq for the next gen it would make it much more competitive. They kinda needed that now though as by the time next gen rolls around the goal posts for being competitive will have moved.
Im still reserving judgement on it til I drive one. No Acura dealer here for some unknown reason so will have to wait til Im out of town. Someday I will have to replace my TL Type S.
It would be nice to see Acura grow on this platform. If they could drop 300 lbs and add 30hp/30tq for the next gen it would make it much more competitive. They kinda needed that now though as by the time next gen rolls around the goal posts for being competitive will have moved.
Im still reserving judgement on it til I drive one. No Acura dealer here for some unknown reason so will have to wait til Im out of town. Someday I will have to replace my TL Type S.
Dropping weight for this car is going to be hard because it's sized like a class above. I actaully wouldn't mind if they grew the ILX into taking this spot, and have the TLX move up (both in terms of price, interior space, and features/luxury) to become an E-Class/5-Series/A6/GS (RIP) competitor.
Dropping weight for this car is going to be hard because it's sized like a class above. I actaully wouldn't mind if they grew the ILX into taking this spot, and have the TLX move up (both in terms of price, interior space, and features/luxury) to become an E-Class/5-Series/A6/GS (RIP) competitor.
If the MDX/TLX is any indication, the next ILX/Integra will come in overweight as well. 😕
Not at all, I hardly see any M340i's or M3/4's in comparison to the amount of 330's I see. There are so many 330i's and A4's etc it's crazy. You may see more of the performance versions than other states but it's nowhere near the base models of cars here. By other states standards you'll see more M340's and M3's etc but it's still not that many.
My brother-in-law lives in CA and I asked him why do I see so many base models of the Germans in CA (you can tell by their infotainment screen sides and wheels). He simply said those people only care for the badges. Mind you, he's also into cars, more of the last-gen NSX group. We are visiting him next week and possibly car and coffee in the Orange area.
My brother-in-law lives in CA and I asked him why do I see so many base models of the Germans in CA (you can tell by their infotainment screen sides and wheels). He simply said those people only care for the badges. Mind you, he's also into cars, more of the last-gen NSX group. We are visiting him next week and possibly car and coffee in the Orange area.
Yeah the overwhelming majority of people can't tell the cars apart. I pointed out a New G80 M3 to my wife and she was like it looks just like your car. They just see the badge.
Yeah the overwhelming majority of people can't tell the cars apart. I pointed out a New G80 M3 to my wife and she was like it looks just like your car. They just see the badge.
I told my wife when we met my car's engine is bulletproof (90s Honda) and she said with a dead-straight face "why would they make the engine bulletproof". Copy/paste this to 99% of population. My dear friend Jerry bought a brand new Altima V6 in 2013 and drove it for 7 years and put 198K miles on it. It wasn't until I got in it and put it in sport mode and used pedal shifters (which surprisingly work very well in the V6 variant of the Altima). He said I never knew my car can go that fast and sound that good. Dude never went over 4K RPM. I tried many times to explain to him what the 3.5L on the back of the car means, he never cared, never remembered, never gave a damn. We (car forum members) need to accept and realize that we are an anomaly in the grand scheme of things. If I were to use Accord forum to judge how many people own 2.0T 6MT, I would think 50% of all Accords were manuals. The truth is, the total number is 1%, and out of that 1%, less than 0.25% are 2.0T 6MT (other are 1.5T 6MT). There are maybe 2000 manual 2.0T Accords out of 1+ million 10th Gen Accords made. And I think I'm being generous. It's the way of the world. So don't beat on your wife too hard (sheeeit) over her not knowing the difference between G80 and M3. I bet if you asked her about paint samples from Home Depot, she would be able to tell you how many rows it has, where blue begins and red ends, etc.
I told my wife when we met my car's engine is bulletproof (90s Honda) and she said with a dead-straight face "why would they make the engine bulletproof". Copy/paste this to 99% of population. My dear friend Jerry bought a brand new Altima V6 in 2013 and drove it for 7 years and put 198K miles on it. It wasn't until I got in it and put it in sport mode and used pedal shifters (which surprisingly work very well in the V6 variant of the Altima). He said I never knew my car can go that fast and sound that good. Dude never went over 4K RPM. I tried many times to explain to him what the 3.5L on the back of the car means, he never cared, never remembered, never gave a damn. We (car forum members) need to accept and realize that we are an anomaly in the grand scheme of things. If I were to use Accord forum to judge how many people own 2.0T 6MT, I would think 50% of all Accords were manuals. The truth is, the total number is 1%, and out of that 1%, less than 0.25% are 2.0T 6MT (other are 1.5T 6MT). There are maybe 2000 manual 2.0T Accords out of 1+ million 10th Gen Accords made. And I think I'm being generous. It's the way of the world. So don't beat on your wife too hard (sheeeit) over her not knowing the difference between G80 and M3. I bet if you asked her about paint samples from Home Depot, she would be able to tell you how many rows it has, where blue begins and red ends, etc.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hillarious quick correction when I say G80 I don't mean the Genesis, I'm talking about the G80/M3. I have an M340i and she can't tell the difference between my 2021 M340i and the 2021 M3. Oh god when it comes to house things she can tell the difference between Core Vinyl floors vs. Engineered hardwood by looking at it. I can't tell the damn difference!
Yeah the overwhelming majority of people can't tell the cars apart. I pointed out a New G80 M3 to my wife and she was like it looks just like your car. They just see the badge.
My brother-in-law lives in CA and I asked him why do I see so many base models of the Germans in CA (you can tell by their infotainment screen sides and wheels). He simply said those people only care for the badges. Mind you, he's also into cars, more of the last-gen NSX group. We are visiting him next week and possibly car and coffee in the Orange area.
Probably badge and they are nice cars to drive around in for most people and look good. In pretty much all car makes you will see a ton more "base" level cars in general. Some nice cars have very attractive lease rates so there is that as well. I would guess more audi/bmw drivers lease compared to honda/acura and some of that probably factors in to their buying choices japanese vs german. Outside of most on the forums, the typical buyer could care less about a 1 second difference 0-60, much less half or a quarter that.
Probably badge and they are nice cars to drive around in for most people and look good. In pretty much all car makes you will see a ton more "base" level cars in general. Some nice cars have very attractive lease rates so there is that as well. I would guess more audi/bmw drivers lease compared to honda/acura and some of that probably factors in to their buying choices japanese vs german. Outside of most on the forums, the typical buyer could care less about a 1 second difference 0-60, much less half or a quarter that.
I love base level cars and am very happy to see people buy the badge. Keeps the car companies in profits & the EPA off their backs. That means they will make the cars I like to drive.
I love base level cars and am very happy to see people buy the badge. Keeps the car companies in profits & the EPA off their backs. That means they will make the cars I like to drive.
True, if not for the base level cars to build off of the next level and above would be much more expensive than they are now and some models may not even exist It's a win/win for everyone.
Originally Posted by djhtsx
agreed. I have absolutely zero respect for any dealership that place is a ADM fee. I mean really how much 5K affecting your finances? I think these fees discredit dealerships more and Acura should force them to stop.
The car dealer is there to make money. Nobody complains when they pay 5k or more off sticker. Paying over sticker or even sticker price is the exception not the rule for most dealers when they sell a car. Like anything else it's only worth what someone will pay, the price always adjusts to the right level. If you don't like the price, go to another seller, can't get it cheaper then you pay the price or don't buy. Dealerships are for profit, why would they sell a car for less than they can get.
If anything you should be upset at people that are paying ADM. Those are the ones that keep it above sticker. If nobody will pay more than sticker it will sell for sticker price.
True, if not for the base level cars to build off of the next level and above would be much more expensive than they are now and some models may not even exist It's a win/win for everyone.
The car dealer is there to make money. Nobody complains when they pay 5k or more off sticker. Paying over sticker or even sticker price is the exception not the rule for most dealers when they sell a car. Like anything else it's only worth what someone will pay, the price always adjusts to the right level. If you don't like the price, go to another seller, can't get it cheaper then you pay the price or don't buy. Dealerships are for profit, why would they sell a car for less than they can get.
If anything you should be upset at people that are paying ADM. Those are the ones that keep it above sticker. If nobody will pay more than sticker it will sell for sticker price.
Have you ever wondered or asked yourself why 9 out of 10 people view car buying experience as nauseatingly stressful experience? They go through training on how to manipulate people. They place fake family photos on desk, they turn spouses against each other, they wear you down physically and mentally so you'll agree to anything just to get out of there. Hunger sets in. Fatigue. Guy in F&I is the most skilled salesman in the building but you're just going there to "sign the papers" with your guard down. Don't bitch to me about dealers having to make money. Everyone who does anything for business needs to make money but not everyone is predatory in their business practices. I live for the day when the dinosaur business model of franchise dealers are wiped from existence. People will always need cars, the jobs will always be there. Honda salespeople need to be Honda employees.
Have you ever wondered or asked yourself why 9 out of 10 people view car buying experience as nauseatingly stressful experience? They go through training on how to manipulate people. They place fake family photos on desk, they turn spouses against each other, they wear you down physically and mentally so you'll agree to anything just to get out of there. Hunger sets in. Fatigue. Guy in F&I is the most skilled salesman in the building but you're just going there to "sign the papers" with your guard down. Don't bitch to me about dealers having to make money. Everyone who does anything for business needs to make money but not everyone is predatory in their business practices. I live for the day when the dinosaur business model of franchise dealers are wiped from existence. People will always need cars, the jobs will always be there. Honda salespeople need to be Honda employees.
i don't disagree, but they wouldn't do it if it didn't work. If folks were stronger-willed and weren't so afraid of being real, direct, and frank, they wouldn't be so easily manipulated. buyers are liars because it's the easy way out. this informs the dealer on how to respond to get the customer to do what they want.
the issue with corporate employees is often a lack of incentive. read reviews about the tesla buying experience for reference. it's a bit of a dumpster fire at times. there's no accountability because there are so many layers to leadership. a dealership or relatively small group of dealerships has more of a chance of being ousted from the market if they continuously provide poor service and thus *can* be more attentive to consumer demand. not always, but moreso.
You can play them in return, especially if your spouse/partner is with you.
When the Sales associate makes the pilgrimage to the VP to seek approval for a better price pay attention to the phone on the SA's desk Odds are a line is in use, the one they will use to eavesdrop on your discussion. So plan for it and give them an interesting discussion.
When my daughter and I went to buy her Accord I went prepared with my best and final, no discussion, price. When he said he had to get VP approval. I handed him a check for my full amount and told him to return with the keys to our new car or the check. Either way, we were leaving.
We sat laughing while the SA and the VP spent time talking and staring at the check. The VP brought me the new keys and laughed as he said nobody had ever worked over his best salesman like that before.
i don't disagree, but they wouldn't do it if it didn't work. If folks were stronger-willed and weren't so afraid of being real, direct, and frank, they wouldn't be so easily manipulated. buyers are liars because it's the easy way out. this informs the dealer on how to respond to get the customer to do what they want.
the issue with corporate employees is often a lack of incentive. read reviews about the tesla buying experience for reference. it's a bit of a dumpster fire at times. there's no accountability because there are so many layers to leadership. a dealership or relatively small group of dealerships has more of a chance of being ousted from the market if they continuously provide poor service and thus *can* be more attentive to consumer demand. not always, but moreso.
But they DO continuously provide horrible and poor service. The only reason they stay around is like I said, people NEED and will always buy cars. The game is rigged. The table is tilted.
Originally Posted by mike03a3
You can play them in return, especially if your spouse/partner is with you.
When the Sales associate makes the pilgrimage to the VP to seek approval for a better price pay attention to the phone on the SA's desk Odds are a line is in use, the one they will use to eavesdrop on your discussion. So plan for it and give them an interesting discussion.
When my daughter and I went to buy her Accord I went prepared with my best and final, no discussion, price. When he said he had to get VP approval. I handed him a check for my full amount and told him to return with the keys to our new car or the check. Either way, we were leaving.
We sat laughing while the SA and the VP spent time talking and staring at the check. The VP brought me the new keys and laughed as he said nobody had ever worked over his best salesman like that before.
I have never thought about the open line and eavesdropping. Nice catch!
Someone on the FB group finally posted a dragy for their tuned 2.0T on 93oct. Results are surprisingly good, 0-60 in 4.6 seconds with rollout, quarter mile in 13.1 @ 105mph. Maybe this is a much needed ray of sunshine for what a tuned Type S can do. Hope springs eternal I suppose.
^^again, Tesla. i've heard horror stories there i've never ever heard pre-"disruption". consumers want EZ because they're lazy. EZ isn't always free. i buy out of state when i have to because i will not be fked with. it takes everyone doing that to raise the game.
Someone on the FB group finally posted a dragy for their tuned 2.0T on 93oct. Results are surprisingly good, 0-60 in 4.6 seconds with rollout, quarter mile in 13.1 @ 105mph. Maybe this is a much needed ray of sunshine for what a tuned Type S can do. Hope springs eternal I suppose.
I may be mistaken but I believe Kevin also swapped to a CTR turbo as well.
08-02-2021, 09:27 AM
. Someone in my neighborhood has been driving around this gem: 
