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Sure, makes sense. Though I'd also believe that the large sample size of ~5M used car sales transactions that the site used to put together the data accounts for that to some extent. Unless an argument to be made is that the vast majority of, say, the Chrysler transactions in that sample size are from people who were forced into keeping their vehicles for however long they did. We can't know for sure unless this website collected customer satisfaction, purchase intent, and/or quality/reliability data with each of these transactions. We can probably make generalizations by looking at another party's customer satisfaction/reliability data though.
That said, if we're going to question if ownership = quality, then it would make sense to question that for all the rankings from this website just as everyone seems to be trying to poke holes at all the other rankings/data being posted here.
I would imagine that the primary reasons people own a car for a long time is 1) the desire to own it and 2) the inability to get rid of it. Frankly, most any car can last a couple decades or longer if you just continue to spend money on it. It's highly improbable that the repair costs of a car within the first 10 years would surpass the value of the car itself, especially for cars that weren't particularly expensive to begin with. At that point, it just becomes a matter of will, desire, or inability to get something else.
I would imagine that the primary reasons people own a car for a long time is 1) the desire to own it and 2) the inability to get rid of it. Frankly, most any car can last a couple decades or longer if you just continue to spend money on it. It's highly improbable that the repair costs of a car within the first 10 years would surpass the value of the car itself, especially for cars that weren't particularly expensive to begin with. At that point, it just becomes a matter of will, desire, or inability to get something else.
I edited my post since you responded, but in general I think the data points to there being a positive correlation with length of ownership and customer satisfaction. I also interpreted that to be the site's intent in presenting their findings.
I personally think that, in general, there are more owners keeping a car out of their desire to own it rather than the inability to get rid of it. The former involves an owner invested in doing what they can to extend their ownership while the latter involves an owner that I assume is motivated to get rid of the car as soon as they're able. So I think former group is likely to have more people with longer ownership terms and the latter is more likely to have shorter ownership terms overall.
We can both keep imagining or coming up with various reasons why the numbers came out the way they did, but neither of us have enough data from this site to definitively say one way or another.
Last edited by norsairius; 02-21-2022 at 09:25 PM.
Lets not conflate ownership with quality. There are tons of other factors that go into ownership duration aside from quality/durability, such as the desire to even own something for that long, or the inability to replace the car for financial reasons. Some of it is self-selection as well; for instance, buyers of the LC are planning to own the car for decades, which is why they bought the LC to begin with, whereas the owners of the mechanically identical LX likely have a different mindset.
Not mixing quality with anything. Just posting a lot of different ways that cars are looked at. Yet there are some points of commonality like Lexus & Toyota scoring well in their classes. Thing I was looking at was the usual suspects generally do OK.
The other thing was the supposedly disposable BMW's after 3 years because its to expensive to keep does not stand up all that well. After all the leased cars are turned in the average life span of 9.5 years for the #2 3 series, equal to the 9.5 years #3 Camry & the 9.4years #4 Accord as well as the Civic & Corolla. The whole brand did 8.2 years which is just under the midpoint of 8.4. To make an average of 9.5 years after the 40 odd precent that are leased (Max 36 months) are counted against the average there are a lot of these cars are being head onto for a long long time.
So if they are so expensive to maintain why would the average person keep a 3 series for near 10 years & the whole brand just over 8 years?
So if they are so expensive to maintain why would the average person keep a 3 series for near 10 years & the whole brand just over 8 years?
Because they know that their repair bills will be higher with a newer vehicle that has tons more equipment that can break once warranty is out. Or maybe they are stuck financially because they are throwing all the money to maintain the car rather than to buy a new one. They are expensive to repair, there’s no question about that.
Last edited by richii0207; 02-21-2022 at 09:36 PM.
because they know that their repair bills will be higher with a newer vehicle that has tons more equipment that can break once warranty is out. Or maybe they are stuck financially because they are throwing all the money to maintain the car rather than to buy a new one. They are expensive to repair, there’s no question about that.
OK
There is no repair bill on a new car for 4 years, maybe they can save up. Do they cost more to service yeah. Is the cost out of line with their purchase price, don't think so.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-21-2022 at 09:56 PM.
People who can afford the car can afford to service it or they should not buy the car because they really can't afford it. Anyone eating that close to the bone on a car purchase is just dumb ass stupid & unfortunately you can fix stupid.
When I was modifying BMW engines I was prepared to buy a fresh engine if I trashed it. Wounder how many guys waiting for the Type-S tunes are ready to step up if they cause any damage. That's the you have to pay to play thing & something to think about, especially if you think service on German cars is too expensive.
Not mixing quality with anything. Just posting a lot of different ways that cars are looked at. Yet there are some points of commonality like Lexus & Toyota scoring well in their classes. Thing I was looking at was the usual suspects generally do OK.
The other thing was the supposedly disposable BMW's after 3 years because its to expensive to keep does not stand up all that well. After all the leased cars are turned in the average life span of 9.5 years for the #2 3 series, equal to the 9.5 years #3 Camry & the 9.4years #4 Accord as well as the Civic & Corolla. The whole brand did 8.2 years which is just under the midpoint of 8.4. To make an average of 9.5 years after the 40 odd precent that are leased (Max 36 months) are counted against the average there are a lot of these cars are being head onto for a long long time.
So if they are so expensive to maintain why would the average person keep a 3 series for near 10 years & the whole brand just over 8 years?
Models owned for less than 5 years were excluded from the analysis, so leases didn't count against the average, from the paragraph on methodology towards the end of the page (https://www.iseecars.com/how-long-pe...p-cars-study): iSeeCars.com analyzed more than 5 million 5-year-old or older used cars sold by their original owners between Jan. 1, 2014 and Dec. 31, 2018. Models which were owned for less than 5 years were excluded from the analysis, to eliminate the effect of short lease terms on the data. Models that were in production for less than 9 of the 10 most recent model years (2010 to 2019), heavy-duty trucks and vans, and models no longer in production as of the 2019 or 2020 model years were also removed from further analysis. The average age of each vehicle, defined as nameplate + bodystyle, was mathematically modeled using the ages of cars when they were first listed for sale.
That said, I'm not surprised that many owners of the 3-series are satisfied with it and keep it (even if you only count those who owned them for 5+ years). I've said it here before: I loved the 335i that I had. it had every single issue identified as being common among E90 owners with the N55 in the E90 subforum at Bimmerpost, but thankfully some of those repairs were covered under CPO warranty. It was just an all around good car aside from the repairs it needed, none of which left me stranded (though one of them could've if I didn't catch the symptoms as early as I did - failing water pump).
I'll be interested to see how major/more expensive components in the TLX hold up over time. The 2.0T has seen quite a lot of use (in varying tunes) in the Accord and Civic Type R (which I believe some internals are different though too) so I'd hope that if there were major issues with it we'd know by now. Same goes for the 10-speed auto and the SH-AWD components.
I'd consider myself a satisfied owner of the TLX, as I certainly felt like one as I took the family out of town in it for a couple days over the weekend. Heat on in the TLX boat was downright cozy in this winter cold as we drove over the snow for short bits of the drive and I even had some fun in that same snow when I went to run an errand on my own. That said, I wouldn't say that Acura has a guaranteed repeat customer in me either. Though I haven't felt that way with any brand I've had. No matter how satisfied with a brand/car I've been, I've always looked at other options. To my own detriment, I just like trying different cars too much and there's so many good options out there. We'll see how things look in 2024.
Last edited by norsairius; 02-21-2022 at 10:16 PM.
The way they take the survey is they send a hard copy & a URL for the computer version out to owners of the cars. Don't know about their own testing how much it weighs in.
I know this. I’ve gotten plenty of them throughout the years but it did shock me to see Subaru and Mazda on top. Not that I have anything against Subaru or Mazda personally. Just not what I expected.
Models owned for less than 5 years were excluded from the analysis, so leases didn't count against the average, from the paragraph on methodology towards the end of the page (https://www.iseecars.com/how-long-pe...p-cars-study): iSeeCars.com analyzed more than 5 million 5-year-old or older used cars sold by their original owners between Jan. 1, 2014 and Dec. 31, 2018. Models which were owned for less than 5 years were excluded from the analysis, to eliminate the effect of short lease terms on the data. Models that were in production for less than 9 of the 10 most recent model years (2010 to 2019), heavy-duty trucks and vans, and models no longer in production as of the 2019 or 2020 model years were also removed from further analysis. The average age of each vehicle, defined as nameplate + bodystyle, was mathematically modeled using the ages of cars when they were first listed for sale.
That said, I'm not surprised that many owners of the 3-series are satisfied with it and keep it (even if you only count those who owned them for 5+ years). I've said it here before: I loved the 335i that I had. it had every single issue identified as being common among E90 owners with the N55 in the E90 subforum at Bimmerpost, but thankfully some of those repairs were covered under CPO warranty. It was just an all around good car aside from the repairs it needed, none of which left me stranded (though one of them could've if I didn't catch the symptoms as early as I did - failing water pump).
I'll be interested to see how major/more expensive components in the TLX hold up over time. The 2.0T has seen quite a lot of use (in varying tunes) in the Accord and Civic Type R (which I believe some internals are different though too) so I'd hope that if there were major issues with it we'd know by now. Same goes for the 10-speed auto and the SH-AWD components.
I'd consider myself a satisfied owner of the TLX, as I certainly felt like one as I took the family out of town in it for a couple days over the weekend. Heat on in the TLX boat was downright cozy in this winter cold as we drove over the snow for short bits of the drive and I even had some fun in that same snow when I went to run an errand on my own. That said, I wouldn't say that Acura has a guaranteed repeat customer in me either. Though I haven't felt that way with any brand I've had. No matter how satisfied with a brand/car I've been, I've always looked at other options. To my own detriment, I just like trying different cars too much and there's so many good options out there. We'll see how things look in 2024.
I'm also a 3 series fan and follow the model very closely having come very close to picking up an F30 328i xDrive on a few occassions. The timing chain guide issue with the N20 derailed me on pulling the trigger, no pun intended.
So far and several years in, indications in following the Accord 2.0T folks (personally and online) are that the K series turbo engines seem to be fairly solid as are the 10ATs that accompany many of them. (Attended a couple of area Accord X meets and networked with a few folks. The only one I encountered with issues has a CTR turbo setup, which probably opens the door to reliability challenges.) I guess time will tell if this combo with SH-AWD has any major reliablity issues.
I know this. I’ve gotten plenty of them throughout the years but it did shock me to see Subaru and Mazda on top. Not that I have anything against Subaru or Mazda personally. Just not what I expected.
Last comment on this trend in the thread. People typically buy what the like & in most cases what they can afford. IIRC the more expensive the car the lower the repo rate. Buy here Pay here used cars have the highest repo rate.
Bottom line is there are truly very very few cars that are not reliable. I define reliable as the car starts, runs, does not leave you stuck on the road. If the radio packs it in no big deal. The other thing is nobody in their right mind goes to the dealer for after warranty service. You either DIY or go to a brand specialist.
For richii0207's points if cars were failing left & right or too expensive to own or had to decide between service or dinner they would not sell. But they do sell pretty well despite their high price ranges.
The 4 series $46,000 to $115,000 & 5 series $54.000 to $131,000 each sell as well as the TLX $38,000 to $59,000 & the 3 series $42,000 to $109,000 sells 2 for 1. These are only USA sales as the car are sold world wide.
SUV the MDX & X5 pretty much a tie around 61,000. RDX 57,000 & X3 76,000. These are only USA sales as the SUV's are sold world wide. Does not include low volume X1,2,4,6 or 7
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-22-2022 at 11:30 AM.
Last comment on this trend in the thread. People typically buy what the like & in most cases what they can afford. IIRC the more expensive the car the lower the repo rate. Buy here Pay here used cars have the highest repo rate.
Bottom line is there are truly very very few cars that are not reliable. I define reliable as the car starts, runs, does not leave you stuck on the road. If the radio packs it in no big deal. The other thing is nobody in their right mind goes to the dealer for after warranty service. You either DIY or go to a brand specialist.
For richii0207's points if cars were failing left & right or too expensive to own or had to decide between service or dinner they would not sell. But they do sell pretty well despite their high price ranges.
The 4 series $46,000 to $115,000 & 5 series $54.000 to $131,000 each sell as well as the TLX $38,000 to $59,000 & the 3 series $42,000 to $109,000 sells 2 for 1. These are only USA sales as the car are sold world wide.
SUV the MDX & X5 pretty much a tie around 61,000. RDX 57,000 & X3 76,000. These are only USA sales as the SUV's are sold world wide. Does not include low volume X1,2,4,6 or 7
I’m not sure if you are new to the BMW brand but they used to have the red digital radio that would fade permanently and would require a replacement. Between water pumps, carbon deposit (I guess it was my fault to buy a BMW with their first attempt at direction injection with a poor PCV causing excessive carbon buildup that required frequent walnut blasting). Next two BMWs ( E and F) chassis had their fair share of out of warranty issues, but definitely not as bad as the former vehicle which I should have replaced the “CEL” chime to “cha-Ching”. I saved thousands doing it myself but spent nearly that on gaskets/oem components. The funny thing? When I got rid of it, it was smoking at idle. Said enough was enough.
If you went to a restaurant on numerous occasions and ended up with the stomach virus each time, would you continue going there despite others saying that they’ve enjoyed it? Based on your posts, sometimes you come off as a BMW spokesperson or salesman and treat others as if they’ve never had the product. You have more BMW related posts than Acura.
Last edited by richii0207; 02-22-2022 at 12:46 PM.
I’m not sure if you are new to the BMW brand but they used to have the red digital radio that would fade permanently and would require a replacement. Between water pumps, carbon deposit (I guess it was my fault to buy a BMW with their first attempt at direction injection with a poor PCV causing excessive carbon buildup that required frequent walnut blasting). Next two BMWs ( E and F) chassis had their fair share of out of warranty issues, but definitely not as bad as the former vehicle which I should have replaced the “CEL” chime to “cha-Ching”. I saved thousands doing it myself but spent nearly that on gaskets/oem components. The funny thing? When I got rid of it, it was smoking at idle. Said enough was enough.
If you went to a restaurant on numerous occasions and ended up with the stomach virus each time, would you continue going there despite others saying that they’ve enjoyed it? Based on your posts, sometimes you come off as a BMW spokesperson or salesman and treat others as if they’ve never had the product.
2004 330Ci ZHP 6MT Convertible sold in 2012 for a 2013 135is 6MT Convertible traded in 2021 for a 2022 M4C 8ZF Convertible. All purchased.
Also at the same time 335is 7DCT Coupe, 340i MPPK/MPE 8ZF Coupe, 440 MPPSK 8ZF Coupe, all leased & Z4 M40i purchased.
Never had to do a walnut blast did a catch can from day 1 on the turbos up to but not including the 440. FWIW did run a catch can on the Coyote for a few years but replaced it with valve cover breathers. Has no PVC system.
Did one gasket set on the 330 & 4 O2 senders. 2 charge pipes on the 335is at 19.5PSI. Second pipe was alloy no further problems. Put an alloy charge pipe in the 135is after the original failed about 7 years in was also JB4 boosted to 20PSI.
My history is both here 3G back to 2006 & the BMW sites back to 2011. Most troublesome car I had in the 2000's was the 3G TL. Your results may vary.
As for walnut blasting being frequent you must have has a real looser as most were infrequent & mostly associated with JB4 moded cars. That said adding a catch can was much better than a new transmission at 22,000 miles in the TL. Check the forums.
Really have to ask this If you were having so many problems with a BMW why did you get more than one? I never bough the second Acura after the first one.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-22-2022 at 01:18 PM.
If you went to a restaurant on numerous occasions and ended up with the stomach virus each time, would you continue going there despite others saying that they’ve enjoyed it? Based on your posts, sometimes you come off as a BMW spokesperson or salesman and treat others as if they’ve never had the product. You have more BMW related posts than Acura.
I tend to respond to posts so there will be more as there are more posts to respond to. Don't read them ignore is your friend.
Find it interesting guys talking about other brands reliability issues after years & years of both manual & automatic transmission failures & lost class action suites. Is the G1 TLX so far in the past that you cant remember the Dog Clutch thing.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-22-2022 at 01:28 PM.
2004 330Ci ZHP 6MT Convertible sold in 2012 for a 2013 135is 6MT Convertible traded in 2021 for a 2022 M4C 8ZF Convertible. All purchased.
Also at the same time 335is 7DCT Coupe, 340i MPPK/MPE 8ZF Coupe, 440 MPPSK 8ZF Coupe, all leased & Z4 M40i purchased.
Never had to do a walnut blast did a catch can from day 1 on the turbos up to but nor including the 440. FWIW did run a catch can on the Coyote for a few years but replaced it with valve cover breathers. Has no PVC system.
Did one gasket set on the 330 & 4 O2 senders. 2 charge pipes on the 335is at 19.5PSI. Second pipe was alloy no further problems.
My history is both here 3G back to 2006 & the BMW sites back to 2011. Most troublesome car I had in the 2000's was the 3G TL. Your results may vary.
As for walnut blasting being frequent you must have has a real looser as most were infrequent & mostly associated with JB4 moded cars. That said adding a catch can was much better than a new transmission at 22,000 miles in the TL. Check the forum.
Mine had 120k+ miles. Walnut blast at 40k, then again around 80k. Rough idling/poor MPG meant time to walnut blast which was a day project taking off the IM to access the intake runners. I wish I had an OCC but direct injection was fairly new so carbon buildup awareness was little, it was around the same time as people started noticing it on their MK5 GTIs . I’m glad that OEMs are doing a better job with their PCV systems, I was losing hope for DE engines. But having duel fuel system would be very helpful, I think Lexus uses it for several vehicles.
I didn’t have a 1G TLX but the same gen ILX which had zero problems. You’re referring to the German-made ZF transmission?
Mine had 120k+ miles. Walnut blast at 40k, then again around 80k. Rough idling/poor MPG meant time to walnut blast which was a day project taking off the IM to access the intake runners. I wish I had an OCC but direct injection was fairly new so carbon buildup awareness was little, it was around the same time as people started noticing it on their MK5 GTIs . I’m glad that OEMs are doing a better job with their PCV systems, I was losing hope for DE engines. But having duel fuel system would be very helpful, I think Lexus uses it for several vehicles.
I didn’t have a 1G TLX but the same gen ILX which had zero problems. You’re referring to the German-made ZF transmission?
First solution was to add a second set of port injectors to spray the rear face of the valves which ran dry with DI. Caught most manufactures out initially. Have not heard of it as an issue in years except with older cars.
Acura had the US transverse ZF. To fit crosswise they shrunk them down by using dog clutches for I think 2 gears. Dog clutches can be very difficult to program for quick shifts because the need to precisely match gear speeds for them to engage. Dodge which used the same transmission had the same problems with them. Took awhile to get them to play nice.
First solution was to add a second set of port injectors to spray the rear face of the valves which ran dry with DI. Caught most manufactures out initially. Have not heard of it as an issue in years except with older cars.
I even used seafoam every oil change :-/. The dual port/direct injection engines would be the best option for long term use. Carbureted engines were so easy to work with, all this tech is mehhh. I even feel like the active exhaust on my Type-S is one more thing that can malfunction. Thankfully it’s pretty easy to fix.
The other thing is nobody in their right mind goes to the dealer for after warranty service. You either DIY or go to a brand specialist.
I may not be of the right mind but with my tacoma (with over a 100k on it), acura tl type S (10 years owned) and daughters civic I took all of them to the dealer for service. Main reason was it wasn't all that expensive as it was pretty much just oil changes or an alignment as those vehicles just never had problems. Brakes I would do myself just because I can and didn't mind doing it. For oil services I could do that myself but I didn't enjoy it and acura/honda was not very expensive for typical stuff and if they screwed something up I knew they would own up to it. In general honda/acura services have generally been very reasonable in price over the years and the local dealer by me wasn't one to try and upsell unneeded stuff. That (expecting costs outside of normal service} was also one of the reasons I was hesitant to buy an Audi for years.
Really have to ask this If you were having so many problems with a BMW why did you get more than one? I never bough the second Acura after the first one.
I thought it was just luck of the draw with getting a defective or one with more problems so I decided to give it another go. The wife loves her BMWs due to driving dynamics, but also won’t own one out of warranty coverage.
I may not be of the right mind but with my tacoma (with over a 100k on it), acura tl type S (10 years owned) and daughters civic I took all of them to the dealer for service. .
Same here.
I think it depends on the dealer (and the expertise/training/ of the technicians and mechanics). Also, good Service-Advisors.
I'll leave it at that, because I've already typed the details many times here before.
I think it depends on the dealer (and the expertise/training/ of the technicians and mechanics). Also, good Service-Advisors.
I'll leave it at that, because I've already typed the details many times here before.
I prefer dealer too, it may be more expensive than a mom/pop mechanic shop but they also use OEM parts and leave less of a mess in the work area.
Especially now that if I injure myself working on the car, the lost work wages would be a whole lot more than paying someone else to do it. I would never do half of what I used to do myself back in the days. Lifting the car, then unbolting the motor mounts with the engine on another jack to lower it so I can access the leaking crankshaft pulley seal…lol..the things I would do to save money.
Also to add to my previous post: I didn’t include the blown engine and the transmission change (6spd, would clunk on hard shifting) I needed for that car. I forgot to add that. Above crankshaft pulley was also for that car too…lol…it was fun when it worked though.
Last edited by richii0207; 02-22-2022 at 07:07 PM.
I have always broken it down since my first new car...one with a warranty. Dealer for warranty work, after warranty me for whatever I could do & a brand specific independent for something I could not do or did not have the time to do. A good indie will be former dealer techs that have started their own service business. One I have used are also BMWCCA instructors & club racers at VIR which gives them pretty good insight into what are potential problem areas on cars stressed beyond normal usage.
Typically the things I cant do are those that would require an investment in tools that would cost more than the fix.
Would not go to the local service station with any of them.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-22-2022 at 07:11 PM.
I would love to know how CR came up with that list.
Probably stood outside of Subaru and Mazda corporate HQ and asked them to take a survey.
You did see what they based their ratings in, didn’t you? Reliability was just one of several factors. My favorite is “road tests”. That covers a lot of subjective ground.
Last comment on this trend in the thread. People typically buy what the like & in most cases what they can afford. IIRC the more expensive the car the lower the repo rate. Buy here Pay here used cars have the highest repo rate.
Bottom line is there are truly very very few cars that are not reliable. I define reliable as the car starts, runs, does not leave you stuck on the road. If the radio packs it in no big deal. The other thing is nobody in their right mind goes to the dealer for after warranty service. You either DIY or go to a brand specialist.
For richii0207's points if cars were failing left & right or too expensive to own or had to decide between service or dinner they would not sell. But they do sell pretty well despite their high price ranges.
The 4 series $46,000 to $115,000 & 5 series $54.000 to $131,000 each sell as well as the TLX $38,000 to $59,000 & the 3 series $42,000 to $109,000 sells 2 for 1. These are only USA sales as the car are sold world wide.
SUV the MDX & X5 pretty much a tie around 61,000. RDX 57,000 & X3 76,000. These are only USA sales as the SUV's are sold world wide. Does not include low volume X1,2,4,6 or 7
Originally Posted by richii0207
I thought it was just luck of the draw with getting a defective or one with more problems so I decided to give it another go. The wife loves her BMWs due to driving dynamics, but also won’t own one out of warranty coverage.
WhenI first read the post I thought he was responding to me. I commented above that four out of five of my BMWs had quality issues. In my case my problems did not keep me from being able to drive them, and I had great dealers. Even the BNW motorcycle dealer gave me loaners. My 540 was in the shop for a week and they gave me a $106k 650 M-Sport convertible for a loaner. I told them to keep my car as long as they wanted
I really wish they'd break down these lists rather than just throw names out there. There's many factors involved here, Brands like Mercedes, BMW etc have high performance and big luxury cars that will always cost more to maintain than the rest of their line up. Who else has a line up like Porsche, BMW, Mercedes full of high performance turbo cars and 6 figure an up line ups? That plays a big part into cost of maintenance which skews these rankings. Of course an M8 will cost more to maintain than a 330i or an E63 AMG will be more than a C300. I'd like to see a comparison of maintenance to the cars in their class by brand I bet it won't be that much different.
So I'll throw some random examples to illustrate why German cars tend to have much higher overall ownership costs long term (out of warranty), it's not so much the typical maintenance/wear costs (fluid changes, sparkplugs, brakes, tires,...) as the repair costs especially for some OEM parts.
On some modern MB's there is a troublesome PCV valve, something that costs say ~$30 on a 1G TLX while cost ~$1000 for a C300. The whole convoluted MB integrated PCV/hose assembly is sorta folklore in the MB world especially with the crimped one-time-use hose clamps (something I've never seen on Toyota/Lexus/Honda/Acura). I can also add BMW valve cover gaskets which are ~$1.5k to replace on a regular 3-series. That's why that graph that was posted had BMW #1 and MB #2 for 10 year maintenance costs didn't surprise me (presume it covered out of warranty repairs in that maintenance costs numbers). So that's for bottom end MB and BMW models which are highly produced.
A counter example of this are the air filters on the limited production 2G NSX, they are identical Honda part number 17220-RX0-A00 ($23 each) as to what's on a Civic and ILX except it has two of them instead of one (gotta credit AZ member and 2G NSX owner @iforyou on that ). That doesn't mean everything is easy on a 2G NSX, not only is it's hybrid system fairly complicated, it has SEVEN drain plugs for it's dry sump engine oil.
Looks like the Integra won't be a direct competitor to the TLX, Acura Canada confirmed it will be FWD only.
Dans une déclaration transmise au Guide de l'auto, Acura Canada affirme que « l’Integra va perpétuer sa tradition d’être l’une des voitures à traction les plus agréables à conduire sur le marché. »
-> In a statement to The Car Guide, Acura Canada says, “The Integra will continue its tradition of being one of the most fun-to-drive front-drive cars on the market.
Last edited by pyrodan007; 02-23-2022 at 01:50 PM.
A counter example of this are the air filters on the limited production 2G NSX, they are identical Honda part number 17220-RX0-A00 ($23 each) as to what's on a Civic and ILX except it has two of them instead of one (gotta credit AZ member and 2G NSX owner [utag=175152
iforyou[/utag] on that ). That doesn't mean everything is easy on a 2G NSX, not only is it's hybrid system fairly complicated, it has SEVEN drain plugs for it's dry sump engine oil.
Agree I expect with a 75 degree V6 vs a 60 degree V6 there are not too many common parts.
Looks like the Integra won't be a direct competitor to the TLX, Acura Canada confirmed it will be FWD only.
-> In a statement to The Car Guide, Acura Canada says, “The Integra will continue its tradition of being one of the most fun-to-drive front-drive cars on the market.
It sounds like it is basically going to replace the ILX. The Integra Type S is a great opportunity for Honda to have a vehicle to fit between an Si and a Civic Type R, at the same time maintaining a luxury feel, especially if they offer it with a DCT or manual.
So I'll throw some random examples to illustrate why German cars tend to have much higher overall ownership costs long term (out of warranty), it's not so much the typical maintenance/wear costs (fluid changes, sparkplugs, brakes, tires,...) as the repair costs especially for some OEM parts.
On some modern MB's there is a troublesome PCV valve, something that costs say ~$30 on a 1G TLX while cost ~$1000 for a C300. The whole convoluted MB integrated PCV/hose assembly is sorta folklore in the MB world especially with the crimped one-time-use hose clamps (something I've never seen on Toyota/Lexus/Honda/Acura). I can also add BMW valve cover gaskets which are ~$1.5k to replace on a regular 3-series. That's why that graph that was posted had BMW #1 and MB #2 for 10 year maintenance costs didn't surprise me (presume it covered out of warranty repairs in that maintenance costs numbers). So that's for bottom end MB and BMW models which are highly produced.
A counter example of this are the air filters on the limited production 2G NSX, they are identical Honda part number 17220-RX0-A00 ($23 each) as to what's on a Civic and ILX except it has two of them instead of one (gotta credit AZ member and 2G NSX owner @iforyou on that ). That doesn't mean everything is easy on a 2G NSX, not only is it's hybrid system fairly complicated, it has SEVEN drain plugs for it's dry sump engine oil.
Just curious but where are you getting those BMW valve cover costs for a regular 3 series? Most people I know pay $200-$500 to get that done. $1500 is a scam if somebody pays that much.
Just curious but where are you getting those BMW valve cover costs for a regular 3 series? Most people I know pay $200-$500 to get that done. $1500 is a scam if somebody pays that much.
~$1500-2500 is BMW dealer, independent shops are ~$1000. FYI, for a direct injection N55 motor. Great video shows and explains the difference between changing the valve cover gasket on a 1980's E30 and a 2010's F30.
Why BMW can't seem to use a long lasting simple valve cover gasket to last awhile is beyond me. Also know a BMW certified tech with over 40+ years of wrenching at local dealerships. We have somewhat amusing car repair conversations.
Just curious but where are you getting those BMW valve cover costs for a regular 3 series? Most people I know pay $200-$500 to get that done. $1500 is a scam if somebody pays that much.
Valve cover msrp is $600, plus gaskets, plus labor. That’s if you are talking about the less expensive 330i. Where are you getting your parts prices from?
Valve cover msrp is $600, plus gaskets, plus labor. That’s if you are talking about the less expensive 330i. Where are you getting your parts prices from?
Most likely dealer numbers but can't figure out how they get to it. In one of my posts to you yesterday I believe. I said I did that job on a 3 series. The parts cost me about $85 BMW OEM which included the gasket & some small plastic thingies for mounting it.
Took me about 3.5 hours which was my first time through it. Will admit the job has a high PIA factor but anybody could do it. No lifting all work is from above only need normal hand tools. Having done it one could knock an easy .5 off the job. So leave it at 3.5 hours @ $100 an hour for labor.
That's about $435 less any extra (ADM) profit they want to stick on it for the job on a straight 6 with factory parts. AutoZone will sell you the gasket set for $37.00
Expect a 4.4 V8 would be a bigger PIA & take more time & cost more money.
BTW think they do a better job now on the valve cover gaskets only one I replaced was on a 2014 E9x generation thats about a 9 year ago build and two (F & G) generations ago.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-23-2022 at 07:52 PM.
Most likely dealer numbers but can't figure out how they get to it. In one of my posts to you yesterday I believe. I said I did that job on a 3 series. The parts cost me about $85 BMW OEM which included the gasket & some small plastic thingies for mounting it.
Took me about 3.5 hours which was my first time through it. Will admit the job has a high PIA factor but anybody could do it. No lifting all work is from above only need normal hand tools. Having done it one could knock an easy .5 off the job. So leave it at 3.5 hours @ $100 an hour for labor.
That's about $435 less any extra (ADM) profit they want to stick on it for the job on a straight 6 with factory parts. AutoZone will sell you the gasket set for $37.00
Expect a 4.4 V8 would be a bigger PIA & take more time & cost more money.
BTW think they do a better job now on the valve cover gaskets only one I replaced was on a 2014 E9x generation thats about a 9 year ago build and two (F & G) generations ago.
said: Great video shows and explains the difference between changing the valve cover gasket on a 1980's E30 and a 2010's F30
The part number he listed
Valve Cover - BMW (11-12-1-742-128)
Is a part for a 4.4 V8 not a straight 3.0 I6. IIRC its an Alloy part not thermoplastic.
You would only have to replace the cover if you somehow managed to break it. Have not heard of them breaking on their own. Its a no stress part that keeps the oil splash inside when the gaskets not leaking. Common issue was a leak showing up at the rear passenger side of the gasket which could come from anyplace along the seal.
Agree if you broke one you would need the part but that would not change the labor content which is the big piece.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-23-2022 at 08:34 PM.
The part number he listed
Valve Cover - BMW (11-12-1-742-128)
Is a part for a 4.4 V8 not a straight 3.0 I6. IIRC its an Alloy part not thermoplastic.
You would only have to replace the cover if you somehow managed to break it. Have not heard of them breaking on their own. Its a no stress part that keeps the oil splash inside when the gaskets not leaking. Common issue was a leak showing up at the rear passenger side of the gasket which could come from anyplace along the seal.
Agree if you broke one you would need the part but that would not change the labor content which is the big piece.
I had to replace mine due to failed PCV valve since they have it incorporated into the valve cover itself. Not sure if that was a common issue. I’m not making this stuff up on what I had to do with the car lol. Plus a failed AC condenser I had to replace but that’s a different topic. I basically assembled the entire car again, minus the suspension.
OMG, who cares about a BMW valve gasket work and the cost, this is an Acura forum and I really don't give a sh#t about BMW costs!
Perhaps you need to look at the title of this thread again. And even given that it opens it to free rein to talk about competition, the thread passed its expiration date so long ago that anyone who still looks at this thread is only doing so to be entertained by the “Bear” 😂
02-21-2022, 09:04 PM
Common issue was a leak showing up at the rear passenger side of the gasket which could come from anyplace along the seal.