BEAR-AvHistory

That really depends on the manufacture. Its only this last ECU round that BMW is said to have the ability to detect piggy backs. They could always detect flash tunes as the ECU counts anytime its reset. If the count number does not agree with their history of resets you have a problem on what will be fixed under warranty & what will not be fixed.

Piggy backs never effect the ECU. They plug in between the cars sensors & the ECU. The object is to send false signals to the ECU. Example the piggy back tells the ECU the boost is low so it will add more boost. Total actual boost is controlled by the piggy back lying to the ECU. As said the game might be over for the BMW engines but a number of the guys are trying to figure out if its true or not. This is pretty important to the vendors as BMW is the heart of the piggy back market.

F23A4

Good info. dzionny_dzionassi kicked off a dedicated discussion on this here:

https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...-s-jb4-997689/

richii0207

That is incorrect. BMW denied warranty work for my 2007 by specifically saying I had a prior tune. You can see on different forums INCLUDING Honda where people buy CPO cars and have warranty work denied because the previous owner had a tune.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

From personal experience, every time I take either one of my BMW's in for service, the advisor calls and says "The technician did a multi-point inspection" followed by what they found, if they did and what it's due for, followed by "And also noticed that the DME has been tampered"... Yes, both of my BMW's have BM3 reflash tunes. I don't deny it either when they mention it. Regardless I still plan on extending my warranty and service packages on both vehicles. The service advisor can only do so much IF something was to go wrong and it is caused by the tune. It's really out of their hands since the report notifies BMW that the vehicle DME has been messed with.

As for the TLX and the recent news of a "tune" available. As you said, it's too soon to know how reliable it actually is. A specific someone here made an ass backwards comment about being stupid to spend money to make your vehicle faster, yet he's all over this tune like a kid at a candy store. It's the price you pay to modify any vehicle still under factory warranty. If you don't care and own the car, then do what you want. If you're worried about it, then leave it the fuck alone.. It's a pretty simple thing. But you know as well as I, many can't help themselves and will tune it. I don't know if Acura has the ability to tell if the vehicle is tuned, but it's only a matter of time til they have the ability to do so and flag the vin.

When I was a tech for Acura, some modified vehicles came in for warranty work and for the most part, none of the modifications done caused the issue they had but the service advisors / service manager would decline the warranty work because of the modifications. Regardless of what I said for example "These aftermarket wheels didn't cause the oil leak" but to them, somehow it did. Such a fucking joke, but that's why I no longer push wrenches. I own my vehicles (paid in full) and I'm well aware that BMW can decline any warranty work. Like I said, it's the price to pay.

As a friendly suggestion, for those leasing or still making those 7 year payments, don't modify the vehicle. leave it alone or at least wait til enough time has passed and these new reflash tunes can be proven to be reliable. I wouldn't be the 1st do so.

F23A4

Very wise advice!! I only flashed my A-Spec after following the experiences of (and speaking with) a number of Accord 2.0T guys who went this route. Definitely would not have done it as one of the first.

BEAR-AvHistory

You see little or no warranty refusals on any of the BMW forums including the JB4 specific one by BMS. In 11 years I had no refusals to any warranty work or failed the EPA & state safety inspection. I never took it off for work or annual EPA inspection. Just went back to Map O BMW stock & disabled the steering wheel input. Your results are out of the norm for over 30,000 units in use.

A flash tune will always show up regardless of make. Anyone who tunes a car should be prepared to pay the bill. If you can't afford to pay for play leave it stock.

Easy check go on to the two major BMW forums & ask for warranty refusals. Separate any refusals including PUMA cases (cars info sent to Germany for approval) or readiness checks were the dummy did not clear the settings. There is also the JB4 specific forums https://www.n54tech.com/forums/

BTW my 2011 335is passed a PUMA check.

TypeS22

This is from my buddy that works at Honda for the past 30 years.

“Techline voided a turbo engine we had blown up because of missing data even though I myself couldn’t detect any faults”

Because either 2 things:

Customer blew it up, removed and clear snapshot data

Or

Blew it up, removed mod and original pcm never recorded snapshot data because of mod interference

BEAR-AvHistory

A flash will be spotted 110% of the time, its guaranteed, slam dunk, you cannot hide it, you WILL be caught out. The ECU has to match the number of flashes data saved in the cars files. ECU serial numbers have to match the VIN#.

TypeS22

Yeah I’ll just stick to aesthetic mad I guess the car as fast as it is. Son would like a faster I understand but for me it’s just fine. No I just can’t wait till they come out with an intake to give it some better sound

richii0207

Little implies they do refuse. I’m not here to debate, I use to be on BMW forums when I had them. I, and many others had warranty work denied due to the tunes. I had a piggyback tune I would remove before any dealer visits. Tunes are not new to me, nor anything regarding what a flash tune vs piggyback tunes or any informational material regarding what a tune is.

The fact of the matter is there is ALWAYS a RISK with denied warranty work due to a tune. Just because it didn’t happen to you does not mean everyone is off the hook. Once your ECU tripped, good luck with warranty.

BEAR-AvHistory

Anything you do in life contains an element of risk. Some big, some small, some random, some self inflicted. Would agree anyone who is risk adverse should not go anywhere near a tune.

So OK will let people check the forums for themselves & see what the risk is to see if its acceptable. Remembering that only people with problems will complain those without you never hear about unless asked.

Only ones I know of that had a problem outside of you had the unit still on the car. Took the unit off but never cleared the tune or cleared the error codes including the hidden ones. Did not shut off the steering wheel controls. Did not in the case of a general visit do not do enough starts & runs to reset the readiness code. Had additional visible equipment like downpipes, Water/Methanol/Alcohol Injection, CAI, wire taps etc. I said earlier you have to be prepared to pay if you want to play.

Be interested to know what was specifically denied?

sombasol

Im having a little trouble keeping up here, the JB4 is a piggy back which for every previous car i had considered it on was undetectable if removed. Have things changed where they are now detectable?? We keep coming back to tunes being detectable, which of course they are but piggy backs arent tunes.

for my input, i had a VW GLi that had a seized balance shaft that was done under warrenty even though i was stage 1 unitronic. They never even mentioned that they noticed it.

leomio2.0

While we're talking about boosting power numbers, it seems like the standard Honda 10AT attached to SH-AWD starts to slip around the 360wTQ mark.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-rdx-...o-tune-997636/

Not to keep laying on the "hate" ... but I'm suspecting that the TLX-S's modifiable power ceiling is going to be markedly lower than its German competitors as well.

fiatlux

350wtq is actually a lot higher than I would have thought, since we know that the RDX pulls power in lower gears to protect the drivetrain from the full fury of 235wtq stock. Even dialing it down to 340wtq...I'm not liking the survival chances of it. I don't think it's the 10AT that is the weakest link here since the FWD Accord 10AT doesn't pull power...I'd be more concerned about the diffs for the SH-AWD system.

leomio2.0

Yep, with how SH-AWD works, all that extra power put thru the system ... it may not be the shock of a hard launch that eats the clutches, but nailing it around corners that could be the demise of the diff.

BEAR-AvHistory

Seems a difference of opinion has cropped up with a new post. As far as I know for BMW at least a fully removed unit was not detectable. Personally never had an issue with a JB4 in 11 years. Never installed down pipes on any car but did install FMIC units. Service techs knew they were there because the worked on a coolant issue in my secondary radiator which sits next to the FMIC.

Now this year with the 502BHP S58 the chatter on the M3/4 forum is that BMW can now detect that one even if removed was on the car. Right now it a rumor with no proof one way or another.

The way a piggy back functions it should be undetectable as the ECU does not "see" the unit only gets its output which it thinks is coming from its sensors.

Do a can "JB4's be detected" search & you will get all sorts of info some of it correct some incorrect.

richii0207

Detecting alterations in ECU was always possible with BMW. Blown engine back in 2007. Warranty denied due to ECU modifications detected when I had a piggyback tune that I would always remove before service.(ECU was sent to corporate for data logs which confirmed car ran outside OEM parameters). They knew the PSI and revs at time of blowing. After the warranty for the new engine expired, everything started going south, first the water pump, thermostat, PCV within valve cover, crank pulley leaking, carbon buildup immediately, leaking head gasket. Was not abused other than a WOT pull once every other week.

That was just the first BMW, next one started going downhill before warranty expired and traded it in for another one. 3rd BMW started giving issues towards end of warranty expiration, which was traded for an Acura. This answers your question in the other thread as to why I stay away from BMW now. Those next 2 BMWs were 100% stock and driven by the wife who is not into speed.

It is not a rumor. If BMW can detect a piggyback tune 15 years years ago, detection should be easier for them nowadays.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just to be clear you blew up the motor took the car someplace removed the JB4 deleted the hidden & normal fault codes. Then had it towed to a BMW dealer. They took it in because of the damage they had to report to Germany. The car then failed a Puma data test in Germany because of the JB4 the same test that I passed relating to a fuel injection issue on a JB4 car. That correct?

Was the JB4 the only thing you had on the car? No down pipes, exhaust, muffler delete etc & you were able to get enough boost to blow it up? I was running 20psi on a 15PSI engine in 2011 & it never exploded not even once. Did you set the safety boost limit that shuts the JB4 off & at what PSI? RPM takes care of itself as fuel is pulled in a soft shut down then a hard shutdown at red line.

Blown engines are as rare as hens teeth. Back then the BMS factory test car had over 86,000 miles on it. First damage it had about 92,000 miles was the transmission slipping. Still had a top time at Shift S3ctor 1/2 mile. The System works by not modifying the ECU. The ECU does know the revs but does not know the true boost.

So this does not go to debate Back to google - "how many engines have blown up since 2007 with a JB4?"

BEAR-AvHistory

M5 already has 553lb-ft @ 1800-5950 going through the 8ZF pure stock. The 8ZF's rated by application for a M340 is 368lb-ft @ 1800-5000. The next level up M3/4C 479lb-ft @ 2750-5500 They need torque more capacity for an application there are more on the shelf. The escalating prices they charge cover these various transmissions being available for low production numbers.

Acura wants to stay within its current pricing package so what you get is what you get. The 10 speed is more than adequate for what they offer in power & meets their pricing objectives. Some one or ones will have to push it to see what the limits are. Would expect if there is an R the transmission will have a higher torque limit with higher pricing to go along with it..

For tuning I think a light tune as currently offered by BMS is pretty safe. Risk is its an all new engine & transmission so if there are any faults they will be found quickly & no do not expect them to become hand grenades. Most all of these engines when damaged have eaten supporting parts turbos etc. Engine case, pistons, heads valves etc stay intact.

To be fair to Acura there is no free lunch, M cars have limits based on price. The base M3/4 6MT is limited to 473BHP while the intermediate priced 503BHP RWD 8ZF is limited to a 2nd gear Launch The top priced AWD 503 gets a 1st gear Launch

richii0207

That is correct. Didn’t you also mention that you remove your tunes prior to dealer visits? But if you are saying that BMW will never know if you had modified the ECU, you are wrong. That is all I am saying. I did not mean to derail from the topic at hand.

This was all started with a statement in which you specifically said that piggyback tunes are safe because they can NEVER be detected, which is false.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just noticed this as have not heard of them doing this before.

Usually the ECU data dump is transmitted to Germany for a major warranty case or something unique. At least mine was it was under the unique cases. The ECU was never removed from the car.

BTW were you 17 years old when you blew up a new BMW? Must have made your fathers day.

richii0207

18. That’s a low blow to think a 17 year old can’t get a job to afford a car or repairs. IIRC, I started working and saving at 14, so the bills were mine.

BEAR-AvHistory

Congratulations, not many 18 years old's then could afford a new $48,000 335i Expect a lot of 50 year old's today on this board can't afford a new M340.
Was not meant to be a low blow just an observation how unusual the whole thing is.

BEAR-AvHistory

One last time & done....A reflash modifies the ECU. A piggy back Spoofs the ECU & does NOT over write any data, Over & Out.

Tony Pac

Let's go back to the topic and keep this thread clean. We want to keep this thread dedicated to Sales numbers. There are plenty of other treads to discuss mods.

Tnx

ACCURATEin

sombasol

No TLX’s to sell

sombasol

fiatlux

I wonder if TLX resources are being shuffled over to MDX production.

MarcoTLX

more than likely, my local dealer only had 3 2022 TLX models come in these past 2 months. Only 1 was a Type-S however, numerous 22’ MDXs and some 22’ RDXs coming in.

F23A4

My dealer received their first TLX in weeks just recently. A rare base model at that.

sombasol

My dealership hasnt had a TLX on the lot since November

ESHBG

Not to be doom and gloom here but I think the TLX is going to be all but dead soon:

• The sedan market continues to tank, some brands don't even make them anymore.
• The TLX wasn't a top seller as it was and if there's none to buy and people need a car now, by the time production returns they'll be even less interest because the purchases have been made.
• It's an odd vehicle as it was: bigger but not more useable, same odd trims forcing you to choose between luxury or sporty...
• The Integra will be out before we know it and the interior is nothing like the rest of the Acura lineup and looks like a Civic. Yes, it's smaller but with the hatchback it's far more practical. Point being maybe Acura will take a whole new direction with sedans if they keep them around.
• By the time TLX production gets back to normal levels we may be knocking on the door of the MMC. Are they really going to dump resources into that?
• Acura is moving to EV and that will need to come sooner than later judging by competitors (I think skipping hybrids is a missed opportunity and the hybrid MDX and RLX were neat vehicles).

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things. The sales chart is meaningless because you can't sell what you don't have or can't deliver. TLX will sell when they have cars to sell. Don't think its the kind of car people will wait 6 months for.

Honda, Dealers, Salesman all make out diverting any & all resources into the MDX line. Its a cash cow for them. Like regular full line dealers Pickups & SUV's are what you want to sell as they have the highest margins. They are also in the greatest demand category. Win, Win.

leomio2.0

This post didn’t age well.

Ok, I’ll stop trolling for tonight.

Tesla1856

Integra should have been a 2-dr coupe (like before). Then, Acura would have one again. Would have also left a place for their new TLX sedan.
Just sayin.

fiatlux

I think a lot of the blame lies at the feet of Honda. Acura really feels more like a marketing exercise than its own autonomous entity, and it relies heavily on what Honda provides them, seemingly moreso than Audi and Lexus. In this segment, the stop-gap between ICE and BEV is a PHEV, but there's really nothing Acura can do to offer something like that. Regardless of what Acura's marketing department would like people to believe, their cars are still based on the same platforms that underpin Hondas, and those platforms do not appear to have been developed with mounting batteries and electric motors in mind. Doing so would require Acura to spend a heck of a lot of money to further modify the platforms to accomodate the battery packs, money that they just don't have. Bear in mind that Acura sells relatively few cars compared to the competition, so they can't absorb the high costs by amortizing them across a lot of cars. Maybe if Acura (and Honda) were actually relevant in Europe where PHEVs and BEVs are really popular right now they could pull it up, but they aren't. And unfortunately, Honda has nothing in this space either other than the Clarity. And that powertrain wouldn't be feasible because in the premium/luxury segment, PHEVs are geared more towards performance, and buyers expect them to be faster than their gas counterparts.

Acura is and always has been at the mercy of Honda. The reason they never got a RWD car (outside of the NSX) or a V8 is because Honda never made one. The reason the Integra looks so much like the Civic inside and out is because they didn't have the budget to make it different. And now, because Honda doesn't have a viable EV or PHEV product, Acura doesn't have one either.

F23A4

Eh, with the exception of the DC5, they were all available as a 4dr sedan or 5dr hatch. Besides, two door coupes are largely unpopular these days which is why there's no longer an Accord or Civic coupe. (Personally, I'm indifferent to an Integra coupe and would much prefer a CLX if executed correctly...which is highly subjective with this brand.)

Tesla1856

I agree that they are unpopular at Honda.

But other normal brands, and all Premium brands ... not so much .. NSX, Mustang, Challenger, Corvette, Camaro, Supra, BMW coupes, Audi coupes, Porsche 911 & 718, etc.

Some families own 2-3 different kinds of cars.

MarcoTLX

Yep and I must say the Supra's Price tag looking attractive to me and barely negligible to the Type-S price tag (atleast the 2.0L lol) more so used 2020 and 2021 Supras.