BEAR-AvHistory

Pretty good TLX thread from the "Dark Side"

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=784591

Mike_TX

It's too son to tell how it will do, but I don't think it will be a failure.

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Tony Pac

thanks for sharing the link.

It's really funny...when Acura came up with 4G TL - everyone started bashing it due to its futuristic look. Now that Acura is offering TLX - more conservative look and simple, everyone is bashing it that its too outdated.

The moral of the story is Acura, BMW, MB Lexus or any car brand won't be able to satisfy everyone - since we all have different opinion, taste and budget.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^^

Interesting how many guys like myself posting to the thread had or have Acura's.

jjsC5

You are acting like they are mutually exclusive and that you can either be futuristic or you can be boring. I didn't like the 4G until the refresh in 12 (which I bought one), and I think the new TSX looks like a bit outdated and boring. HOWEVER, I am reserving final judgement until I see one in the flesh. I should also say that appearance is not the only reason for buying a car. I recently bought my wife a GS350 that is a little bit boring, but not ugly and it fit what we were looking for the best.

LaCostaRacer

That was a good thread. I liked all the signatures where the 32x folks have the leatherette interior and refer to the purchase decision of being 'driving dynamics .vs. other stuff'. Another choice is hassling with a dealer for lots of warranty repairs .vs. simply driving. There wasn't much discussion about the SHAWD in that thread I noticed- it was mostly slanted at the i4 TLX.

jduong29

Overall Success! Price is great! Horse power is there if you want it! Jewel LEDs headlights looks good! Can't wait to get one when it arrived at my Acura dealership.

jshaw

I suspect most there would only consider the i4 TLX on price alone. V6 SH-AWD would push against base moderately equipped 4cyl BMWs and base model 6cyl BMWs. Sure, it doesn't match up 100%, but it's definitely close enough to cause many Acura shoppers to pause at the price, and see a similar BMW for not much more. Many promises are supported by that BMW badge, and it meets them, as far as buyers are concerned.

Rocket_man

I think it shows how every buyer has their own 'new car calculus' that they go through to decide on what car they will buy. For the BMW guys they end up in the group that wants driving dynamics over value, for the Acura crowd they tend to want value and features but something more than mainstream. Like lots on AcuraZine and the BMW forums I've been in both camps at one time or another. When I drove the new 3-series I wasn't that impressed with its driving dynamics to spend that kind of cash. Let's face it, it is a daily driver and how aggressively do I drive to work and back? My calculus was different when I bought an E46 (I loved that car but couldn't own it after the warranty) but the new 3-series doesn't handle like that. As I get older I'd like to put more of my money to other priorities than a daily driver. $42K is pushing my limit.

So this time my calculus is coming up TLX since value and features in a car that I can own after the warranty are high on my list. At a different time the BMW might be higher. More power to those that want the BMW or C-series or Audi... great to have the choice. For my wife, she chose the new Mini and I have to say I really like it too.

What I don't get are those that want to impose their calculus on others. Almost like they are insecure in their own decisions. Buy the car you want, don't make excuses, and respect those that make decisions differently than you (not you LaCasta.. 'You' in general). We all solve this equation slightly differently, but those that ended up in AcuraZine like those that ended up at Bimmerfest generally came to the same conclusions. Birds of a feather as they say.

vbx

I don't think people bashed it because it looked futuristic. They bashed it because it looked more like a family sedan (boring) rather than a Luxury Sport.

And I'm bashing the TLX not because it looks dated. But because it looks like a poor Photoshop job. Like a cross between a 3G and a 4G. Like they really didn't give a shlt Lets slap it together and call it a day.

Stew4HD

I never saw anyone bash the 4G because "it looks like a family sedan instead of a luxury sport". All the bashing I saw was over the beak

You think that Acura doesn't give a shit due to pictures you've seen? Mmm-kay.. opinions, opinions.

BEAR-AvHistory

Thought SteVTEC's post was one of the best.

MikeAmmo

Depending on how the reviews go, I can honestly see the TLX being a rousing success.

Looking at the feature set of this car and how it's priced, it's right there with a loaded Fusion, Accord, Sonata, etc. It's cheaper than a Buick Regal (probably its closest competitor). It's lighter than a Buick Regal and gets better fuel economy, even in SH-AWD trim.

Acura's brand cache may have taken a hit in recent years, but it's still more prestigious than Buick. And an Acura is sure as hell more prestigious than Ford, Honda, Chevy, etc.

It all comes down to how the car really handles. If it's the sport sedan Acura claims it is, then we are in luck. If the reviewers see it as a modified Accord, then Acura is in trouble. The best example here is the Lincoln MKZ: the Fusion is sporty for a midsize sedan, but in Lincoln trim, all the technology in the world can't mask that it's a Fusion in a tuxedo, and that's a problem for Ford.

If P-AWS is what they say it is, then Acura can be the go-to brand for first time luxury buyers.

Stew4HD

I personally do not think that handling will be what sells this car. Remember, we enthusiasts make up a very small demographic for these cars. I say that because I see mostly women driving TLs! I am including both 3G and 4Gs. If the car appeals to them, then it'll sell well, if numbers of units sold is a measure, that is.

MikeAmmo

You're right because most people don't drive their cars hard. HOWEVER, reviews do add a lot to a shopper's perception.

Middle age housewife may not track her 3 Series, but she still buys it because of the perceived "fun" factor. Likewise, pre-Enclave Buicks were the ultimate highway cruisers but lost marketshare because they were boring to drive (and pre-Enclave, looked horrid).

It still needs to have athleticism to be taken seriously among the luxury demographic. Lexus ES is seemingly the only exception to this rule.

Ultimately, what will sell the TLX is the hitting the curve of athleticism, brand name, fuel economy, reliability and overall value. The TLX, pending reviews, seems to hit all those notes perfectly from afar. For me, I see it as "premium enough" brand name, enough athleticism (call it 95% of a 3 Series in every day driving), and a value that can't be ignored due to the feature set.

Tony Pac

Exactly! Everyone was bashing the car due to its look - the beak. I know the 4G was not successful comparing to 3G but its a very nice car.

Lets see what TLX will do in a 3 months

Rocketsfan

I was cracking up while reading that thread since it's the example I keep giving to others trying to decide. There is no "best car" in a segment for everyone. Find what it is you like about vehicles, subtract what it is you don't like about those vehicles, in general, and buy whatever rates highest after that. You'll definitely be making compromises.

I liked how one guy states how BMW interiors age like fine wine. And I won't disagree with that, except to say I feel the exact opposite - all I ever see with BMW's interiors are flashbacks to the 1970's and 1980's. But again, it doesn't make me right.

Interesting read, though. I will give BMW credit - no matter how badly designed their fanboys think the "new" models are (and I hear this a lot), they consistently make good looking cars. The handling/performance really doesn't make me want to buy them simply because I doubt I'll be pushing my car to any limits on interstates or Dallas freeways anytime soon. That, combined with reliability (perceived, anyway) and repair costs, keep me away from most German makes. But damn, does that new C-Class keep calling me ...

It's due to this I'm still looking at pretty much the TLX alone - unless the 2015 Q50 fixes a lot of their issues, and that's rumored to be due out in September.

Healingduck

I've gotten this feeling almost every time I've seen a BMW interior, and I can't put my finger on what it is. Maybe the center stack or something.

graphicguy

The Audi A4/S4/A6/S6/A7/S7.....all are based on a FWD platform. All are good cars. You can't automatically dismiss a car because of its FWD/RWD design. That's something the car rags bitched about years ago when some of those FWD platforms weren't very well engineered or designed.

A 3G is never going to look like a 4G or a 5G or a 2G and vice versa. If you like the 3G's design, then there are plenty of nice examples you can get, for fairly reasonable money.

I like the jeweled headlight design cue that Acura has made their own. MDX, RLX and now the TLX all have adopted it. So, that's their direction. The grill looks like a further evolution of the brand (I can see some 2G, 3G and 4G in the design).

winstrolvtec

I don't disagree with the overall assessment, makes perfect sense in theory but there are perfectly good reasons why a car may fall off in sales and may be a good car, better than the one before, or better than others or flat out bad and everything in between. It's just hard to put a finger on even strictly based on sales.

For examples, you could reduce the variations, raise the price while the car is objectively superior but have a drastic reduction in sales. Furthermore, one could cheapen the product overall, ditch features and performance, however lower the price and attain better marketing, attracting more market and increasing sales while it could be argued it's a worse product than it's old self or against competitors.

These may not necessarily be the TL's or TLX's case but as one put, it can be very elusive. Context and perception is also an issue. Two of the best sellers at the time were the 3 and TL, consequently they were also two of the biggest drops with the follow up model. The 4G being down about 50% as a whole while the last 3 fell about 30%.

Now there is a big difference in that 20% and cars like the C, G, and A4 didn't experience such things but we never heard about the BMW slide and rarely when we did it was excused by the 1 series addition or the economy while few considered the same and the Accord or TSX impact similarly. However, the 4G did have a bigger and longer lasting styling controversy which would naturally be the focal point, so it's not to dismiss or make little of that either and it's impact.

I will add that it was not the best selling vehicle, others did give it a run for it's money while one or two still outsold it as a whole. However, as a sedan there was little to no contest.

Furthermore, when and if the TLX recovers those sales or new sales, however we look at it, there are questions, such as how much of it is the loss of the TSX or condensing of two outgoing models, how much is it the lower entry price, direction of styling, reduced proportions, more inclusive content, etc, etc, while adding, that in most cases, this is probably an objectively better overall vehicle in the first place and sales will likely indicate that, however that is not always the sole measure of such things and if it doesn't "recover" that would also be indicative of that.

In fairness, it's a safe assumption, so again in that way I agree. Improved sales can generally equal better product in most capacities, be it compared to the last one and vs the competition but that doesn't have to be the case, nor is it a common requirement or criteria in assessing a vehicle for one's acquisition, at least consciously. Then again, also safe to say there is a fine line between sales and popularity but then that raises another issue of which comes first and is that a constant as well?

MSZ

One huge difference between Audi and Acura: Audi moved the front axle as forward as possible, to create a RWD-like proportion. Something Acura no longer had since first-gen TL and first-gen RL. Acura keep making cars based on the Accord platform, that creates a lot of design problems for them, such as huge front overhang. No wonder why all of their sedans are sitting at the dealer lots.

winstrolvtec

As far as the responses from the "dark side", not as bad as often seen or depicted, however one point and underlying theme that shined through among the different points and takes on it, were that many seemed to think, and especially those that had 328's and 320's (with the 335 excluded), that they somehow had a vastly superior sports car or it was more capable in that regard just because it was a 3 or a BMW or because to was RWD or based or what it felt like. "We" know that this can be the furthest thing from the truth.

Again, that goes back to the concept of showcasing the high end elusive model but selling the affordable watered down one and somehow people make more of this imaginary association than it is. To be fair though, most brands don't sell their top of the lines in any meaningful capacity be it trim or models but the more high end you offer, the more people make a connection even if it's only the same by name, badge, or association and all the acclaim comes from the one that costs nearly twice as much while there is quite a difference in not only the price but also and the overall spread which includes the overall luxury assessment, performance and capabilities, features, and even in many smaller respects, styling and ques.

Also looks like most people there would put it against a 320 or 328 when that seems to be the case as far as price and trim is concerned. I know it's a bit premature but I think we will see as we have historically seen that, price matching aside, it will compete from bottom trim to half way between the 328 and 335 for the loaded price of 320 in terms of the SH advance. What's it missing and has been, as one or two individuals over there even alluded to, was simply Acura not offering another trim in the $50k-$60k area and also wondering why? Especially since the same reasons to and not to apply to just about in every brand.

Also found curious that some suggested that one would get a top of the line 328 or 320 or a bottom 335 instead. Again, it's a bit premature one way or another and that is my main counter to that but I'm not sure what is not competitive enough about an SH advance over any of those models or what is the quality that is missing? It's rarely ever talked about or explained even in a subjective quality or context.

There was some talk about the I4 not having enough torque and perhaps lacking in "drivability", (I'll call it), in comparison, which is fair but what does that have to do with the V6 in comparison and the fact that it has 9 gears and so maybe better than the 328 or even on par with the 335 in that department, we don't know. Yet some suggested they would still take a 320/328 loaded.

So still curious why, or what is still missing, it wasn't about styling, or anything price or feature related, so that doesn't leave much. I know I may get some flack for it from some or that Acura is not immune to it at the same time but I'll guess anyway, and say it's because one is an Acura while the other is a BMW, even if a 320/328 and the other SH advance.

dysonlu

German car manufacturers are great in marketing. They play the halo effect perfectly. They offer so many halo cars -- these are the best ads you can have. The latest example is the BMW i8 and i3 combo. The i8 will give pride to all the i3 drivers who will feel they are part of the family.

The Japanese are starting to get back into the halo car game. Lexus/Toyota has been pretty active in this area lately. Honda/Acura is not late in the game; they are not even in the game!

Personally, I don't really care. I consider myself a rational shopper. But most people shop by emotion and impulse.

dysonlu

Did the first gen TL sold more than the 3G TL?

graphicguy

Uh.....the A4 has different proportions than the A6 which has different proportions than the A8, etc.

Accord is considered one of the "best in class" for an awfully long time. I don't know what design problems you're speaking of.

Mini uses some engineering from BMW and vice versa. Chevrolet uses design and engineering from Cadillac. Audi, of all the above, uses an awful lot from VW. Sit inside a recent VW and a recent Audi and you'll see what I mean.

They all share parts, engineering, platforms.

You're going to see a whole lot more FWD Benzs and BMWs in the very near future.

a77

That's a nonsense about poor TSX MT fuel economy. Golf TDi aside it's the most fuel efficient car I have owned. Averaging 7.0 ltrs per 100 kms since knew, over 40,000 kms. 6.2 on current tank, just passed 1000kms, 620 miles. For all Honda's claims I will be astounded if the TLX, if I get one, will beat this.And it won't have the range as it's fuel tank is smaller.

Can someone tell me why the TLX is longer overall, has a longer wheelbase, smaller fuel tank, no spare tire, more compact front suspension, and miraculously ends up with less interior space? Less than the even more compact Civic. If the numbers are to be believed.

Nice to see universal praise for Honda's shifters on that thread. The TSX's is sublime of course.

a77

That's a nonsense about poor TSX MT fuel economy. Golf TDi aside it's the most fuel efficient car I have owned. Averaging 7.0 ltrs per 100 kms since knew, over 40,000 kms. 6.2 on current tank, just passed 1000kms, 620 miles. For all Honda's claims I will be astounded if the TLX, if I get one, will beat this.And it won't have the range as it's fuel tank is smaller.

Can someone tell me why the TLX is longer overall, has a longer wheelbase, smaller fuel tank, no spare tire, more compact front suspension, and miraculously ends up with less interior space? Less than the even more compact Civic. If the numbers are to be believed.

Nice to see universal praise for Honda's shifters on that thread. The TSX's is sublime of course.

MSZ

Go read my post again, all Acura sedans right now do not have a RWD-like proportion. Audi sedans and coupe(A5) have that, thanks to VW's longitudinal engine platform, it allows the cars to have a longer hood, shorter front overhang, and push the cabin back to create a classic RWD luxury car look, you simply can't do that with the Accord platform.

And BTW, it has nothing to do with FWD BMW and Mecedes, and you know those cars are going to outsell any Acura sedans badly.

MSZ

Nope, but Legend did sell a lot more than 2nd gen RL and the RLX. Thanks to its RWD-like styling.

Legend2TL

, Ferrari pushes the 458 front wheels as far back as possible so they have a large front overhang. It's a sportscar but a production road car none the less and the 458 makes it work pretty well.
The 3G TL also has a front overhang that also looks OK for it's styling as well, and sold 78K in 2005.

Stew4HD

Oh really? The only cars that sell well have RWD styling? Are you referring only to "premium" cars?

MSZ

Apple and orange comparison. Mid-engine exotics all have long overhangs, but they all sit very low, it doesn't create unbalanced proportion.

MSZ

Premium cars of course.

Stew4HD

The Lexus ES series sells VERY well and is FWD.

dysonlu

Since first-gen TL didn't sell as well as the 3G TL, what you implied about Acura sedans "sitting at the dealer lots" because of their design "problems" (e.g. "huge front overhang") is absurd.

Colin

What about the 1G 3.5 RL? It had "RWD-like" styling and never fared well beyond the first 2-3 years. The FWD based 2G RL had a great start for its first 2-3 years, but fell behind as it aged.

Conclusion, both cars sold equally well when new but fell off quicker than many would have liked. The long product cycle for both generations did not help. If the 2G Legend had run for 10 years, it too would have sold in the hundreds in year 10, regardless of the proportions.

It didn't even sell as well as the 2G TL...

MSZ

Alright, explain why 4G TL wasn't selling then.

1st gen TL(or Vigor) didn't sell as good as 3G TL, but they did a lot better than the 4G TL, sales wise. I guess styling does have something to do with it(along with other reasons).

MSZ

So TLX now competes with ES? But then its not going to regain any more market-share in the sport sedan segment either. Are you guys ok with Acura sticking with the FWD platform forever?

Colin

Clearly styling was a factor for the 4G, but I feel it had more to do with the grill and other detail work vs. overall proportions. Do not forget the fact that it was by far the most expensive TL ever, with the base model starting over $36K. AND you didn't even get the same things that you got in the year before to 'soften' the blow. To get a 'good' 4G, you had to spend 40K for a Tech. That was a lot of money, especially in 2008-09!

AS long is it's priced appropriately. (see RLX for how NOT to do it)

fsttyms1

Typical BMW snobbery