winstrolvtec

The 4G proportions where actually well balanced out, more than we see for many cars, RWD included. RWD tends to appear short at the rear and longer in the front. Which can sometimes make the front appear to look bulky or just as bad in terms of front overhang. The 4G evened those sort of things out as much as reasonably possible, the problem was it created an overly large exterior and the design even went as far as to extend the front and rear a few inches more than necessarily for what seems to be a design choice first and foremost, giving it that bullet shape both front and rear. It also had a higher belt line and possibly less visibility. It was more of a car for a larger, taller person while remaining similar inside. The issue with it's styling IMO was more centered around the ques, beak, shield look and silver accents mostly.

As others stated as well, the overall price and entry point went up while the economy tanked and some others brands were way ahead in the respect that they started offering cheaper entry points with less content and smaller engines to compensate.

The TL has always been more of an ES competitor, historically. Lots of premium or luxury cars offer FWD and do extremely well. Maxima, ES, LaCrosse, and usually the TL. A4, CC, and TSX were not too bad either. However an A4 FWD is not that common. May be one or two more in there.

With the intro of SH in more recent years and them now taking the steps to shrink the car and make it lighter and more fuel efficient, I think they are fine with the FWD platform with the SH option, as most of the sales and market have always come from FWD TL's and not AWD variants anyway. They do need a sport version IMO to better compete not that they need RWD, see Audi and the S4. Although that won't help market share and doesn't really help Audi sedans either in pure volume and numbers but it helps the overall perception and competitiveness. I think FWD hurts Acura at the RL/RLX market area and above if they decide to go there but not below that. It's more about the execution and marketing in the lower markets IMO.

Interestingly enough, the FWD architecture was always a bonus in terms of space, however it seems they have struggled with the trunk capacity when the model is configured for the addition of SH. Coincidence or not? I don't know. Now the model appears to be shrinking disproportionately inside compared to out. Not sure why that is but then again there is also a lot of inconsistencies in the way these things are measured and a lot of mysteries and different methods as well. For example, perhaps larger seating surfaces and arm rest for the center console and side doors would reduce those dimensions while not actually be a smaller overall space. I know I have seen larger interiors on paper with much smaller seating and still simply felt smaller despite having more "free" space at least on paper. Not saying it actually works that way but could be.

dysonlu

Styling is only but one factor and most of the time, it isn't even a significant one. Explaining why the 4G didn't sell as well as previous gens is not even the point here. The point is that I demonstrated using an example that invalidates your claim that styling, namely "huge front overhang", makes or breaks a car in terms of sales.

If a car offers many appealing advantages, most buyers can willingly ignore the minor aesthetic "missteps".

MisterZDX

Finally some good insight as to why the 4G struggled to sell in the beginning. Everyone wants to constantly blame the styling. While it may have had a little to do with it (the beak) and the fact that it grew so much in size compared to the 3G, but we must remember that it did go up in price and times were hard for most people in 2009. Many car lots were loaded with inventory and empty with potential buyers.

Acura_Dude

Reading through the thread now.

KeithL

But look at who buys the ES, people that just want a cushy ride.

Gen4MDX

YES

boe_d

I am considering the ES - not for a cushy ride but for a slightly better GPS, a very quiet interior, a hybrid that gives decent MPG although I'd like better acceleration and while I'm not nuts about they Cylon front end it is still better than a beak. Of course since I'm not completely sold on the ES so I'm waiting another year to see if any improvements come to the TLX - I might get one if they release a hybrid based on the Accord hybrid engine. Hopefully by then someone at Acura will realize it is no longer 2007 and replace the GPS.

KeithL

I do like that they offer a Hybrid in the ES. I took a ES350 out for a spin over a year ago, just could not get comfortable in front seat, could never find a seating positions that accommodated my leg room needs. Also road isolation was too much, of course that is what they are shooting for. I did look at a GS350 and that was nice, but could never find a car with options I wanted, Lexus a la carte configurations make it too hard to find what you want.

Stew4HD

I drove a couple of ES's as loaners and compared to the GS was a real set back. They aren't bad cars though but remind me of a old ladies car since that is what I see driving many of them.

graphicguy

Uhhhh....now you've really lost me. What exactly is the correct "classic RWD luxury car look"?

Look....I get it if you like Audis. I've owned them. I think you're a bit off on your understanding of platform engineering. That's OK!

Whenever BMW, Audi, Benz, Lexus, etc restyles a car, some of the masses who liked to old look decry it as "not as good as the old one". Some will like it.

The FWD platforms that are put out there by Audi and Acura and good, they're very good. From experience, I can tell you I'd choose Acura's SH AWD system over Audi's Quattro. I'd also choose Acura's FWD cars over Audi's FWD cars.

As far as proportions are concerned, I'd have to put a TLX side by side to an Audi A4/A6 before I can make a comment about which uses space better.

I can tell you the Acura's sports milano leather seats (TL SH AWD) are worlds better than Audis S4 sports seats (alcantara).

Audi takes the win with their excellent DSG trans. But, we don't know how Acura's DSG or 9 speed will behave, yet.

For those who care about such things, Acura's NAV and ELS stereo trumps the Nav and B&O stereo on the S4.

Then there's the elephant in the room....price out a 328i(x), 335i(x), A4, S4 and compare them to the Acura TLX, there's a sizable delta in pricing (and reliability, and maintenance).

Buy what you want. Just don't decry the TLX as better/worse than the competitors. The TL SH AWD wasn't, all things considered) and the TLX should be better.

Legend2TL

, more like Granny Smith apple vs McIntosh apple. They're both road cars.

The 3G TL has a front overhang and was also very successful too.

Stew4HD

IMO, front end overhand has nothing to do with sales for the majority of people don't look at things like we do

Legend2TL

+1

graphicguy

Yeah....to say that Acura is somehow inferior, or that there is some sort of cookie cutter "look" for a luxury car is silly. All cars have different looks, different dimensions, different platforms that they work with.

Some use FWD because of space efficiencies, some use it because it offers superior traction over RWD.....there are a whole host of reasons companies use FWD over RWD platforms.

Torque steer used to be the big bugaboo many years ago with FWD. The last time I experienced torque steer in a FWD car was in an early '00 SAAB turbo. That was a while ago, though. Even the 3G didn't have all that much torque steer (although it did have some).

I would imagine with P-AWS the handling characteristics of the TLX will be very good. Last time I drove something similar was in a Prelude with 4WS. That car was a blast. I'm thinking PAW-S will be much better than that.

I'm a fan of SH AWD. Mentioned before, I prefer it over my last Audi S4's Quattro (although the TL is nowhere nearly as fast as that car was). The new SH AWD system is supped to be better than the previous version. We'll see.

Look, I understand if you don't like the styling of Acuras. There are plenty of other cars out there for you.

But, for the money, the drive, the reliability, the technology, the materials, the build quality, the cheap maintenance (believe me, it's cheap compared to maintenance on an Audi), etc....I don't see how you can go wrong.

I think it's a good looking car. If it drives better than my current TL SH AWD, I'll be on it.

Those who don't want to? BMW or Audi has a $50K car (equipped like for like) just waiting for you.

saturno_v

I know personally of two cases where the 4G TL did not sell because of the lack or rear folding seats, which, as owner of a TL SH-AWD, it is one of the very few serious flaw in the car.

MtnMan

Has Acura publicly stated their actual internal goals and projections? If not, how can anyone in this thread possibly predict if the car will be a success by Acura's measures?

I agree there are many data points, but none of us really know which ones matter to Acura so it’s all conjecture. In your case it is very educated conjecture based on sound logic. I always appreciate your posts and take note of the content.

A fair position is that they need to at least fill the volume void, but at what cost? Their internal projections surely have identified KPIs tied to P&L. Maybe it is as simple as moving units, but I doubt it.

Agreed.

hellopanda520

All wheel drive is the way to go.

DEman19901

Not sure about the RLX, but the new Accord definitively looks better. The Accord is Honda's best design in years. Too bad that they couldn't package the Sport better.

MisterZDX

Everything about the Accord is a winner except those outdated tail lights. Hopefully, those will be fixed during next years mid-cycle refresh. As far as the TLX's exterior styling, that thing is dead on arrival and already looks about 3 years old. Now your 4G in your Avatar is a nice looking car. That design is aging gracefully.

H_CAR

Sorry but I think the vast majority would agree the 4G TL (specifically the 09-11 model) looked horrible.

Tony Pac

So far, all I hear is positive reviews and word of mouth about TLX!

Quandry

New user here. I have read just about all the posting on this site and many on the web, and the early consensus is positive. Only time will tell if it is a success or failure.

I am hoping for success, but it does not really matter to me. Had only been mildly aware of this model and had not read anything about it before receiving a promotional flyer in the mail last Wednesday. Purchased one today. Granted I was in the market for a new vehicle to replace my 3gen TL, and was shopping the Q3 and GLA (not in the same category). Q3 for about the same money but way less features, and GLA much more expensive and delivery likely Jan/Feb next year for the features I wanted.

Now just have to wait for them to find a matching spec and deliver. Hopefully only a couple of weeks.

a35tl

Congrats on your purchase.

EE4Life

Per Acura, TLX sales, as of August 12, have been 115 cars. There are about 1000 TLXs in dealer inventory and about 1300 TLXs in transit.

a35tl

Appears the dealers will have a good inventory soon. I think the sales are going to be very good for Acura. Do you mind sharing the link to the Acura sales information?

acura15

I think sales will really start increasing once the marketing campaign is in full swing, and then after the SH-AWD models arrive. That being said, these numbers do seem to imply that the initial rush isn't overwhelming. I would be interested in seeing the average number of days that it takes to sell a car from inventory.

usdmJON

Overhang this overhang that.

I've said it once I'll say it again
None of you push your cars to the extent where overhang matters.

Crying about performance issues you'll never have to worry about.

Stew4HD

I can understand the overhand a bit, my 4G scraped on certain angles and such but I do agree with you that the worry over 0-60 times makes little sense to me (if that is the performance issues you are talking about).

usdmJON

Performance wise I was thinking handling characteristics when there is too much weight outside the center of gravity which can create understeer or oversteer depending on front or rear overhang while cornering aggressively.

However, I highly doubt anyone HERE in a TL or TLX will be taking corners aggressively enough where the front overhang will have much of any impact.

If you ask me, if youre driving cars that aggressively keep it on the track and buy a sportier car. Not something with a thousand extra pounds in creature comforts. If its really a concern buy a BRZ. If you want luxury, than overhang shouldnt be much of a worry.

Quandry

The car industry has done a fantastic job in building and marketing vehicles with performance features that 98% of their customers will never use or need. I include myself as one of those suckers to the hype.

Some of the performance spin-offs are useful safety features, but general use of performance off the track are counter to safety. Yes, I am showing my age.

acura15

Agreed. Anyone driving their car at 10/10ths on public roads is being reckless. It just takes one good track day to recognize your limits. There's a big difference between an "armchair" amateur driver and a pro.

kurtatx

Agreed. People just need to avoid barreling out of the Costco parking lot at 60 mph and scraping. It's a non-issue for most.

Acuramon

It's not just going to be a success. I believe it will be a HUGE success.

kurtatx

It will be largely subjective, I think.

Detractors will claim the TLX has to replace the sales of two models (it doesn't). The TLX looks to sell enough to restore some confidence in Acura from both fans and Honda management.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't think its a detractors thing just economics 101. On a 1:1 bases I believe the TLX will be successful & sell a lot more cars than the 4G did.

From a corporate finance point of view it needs to cover both the former TSX & TL profits to be successful. It does not have to cover the TSX units 1:1 because the cost associated with building the TSX also go away.

Somewhere on some accountants spread sheet is the break even number for TLX sold & its a number we will never find out.

Quandry

I agree that 3 models should be sufficient to cover the range. But there is BMW who have recently introduced a 4 series, so now they have 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 4-door sedans. And Audi with A3, A4, A6, A7, and A8. Maybe different economics for them.

nzone

Epic fail. The 2015 TLX looks so bland. OMG, the wheels. When I viewed the gallery, I couldn't get my mind out of the "glorified civic si sedan". The car look so thin and light weighted. I would consider Lexus IS and Infiniti Q50 over this.

iutodd

Absolutely. Apparently with the Yen where it was Honda was barely making any money/no money on the TSX over the past 3-4 years.

Also - the math for Acura has changed in terms of their overall sales numbers. When they hit their peak sales in '05 at 209K they had one SUV and five cars with cars making up 2/3rds of their sales. Now the RDX and MDX are over half of their sales and they only have three cars. I obviously don't know the production capacity of Acura specifically but I'd have to believe that their goal is to get back to 200K+ sales/sales record by the end of 2017 if not next year. To set the record in '05 they needed over 110K units from the TL and TSX. Now they get those same numbers from the RDX and MDX. Also - Acura is on pace to sell around 165-170K cars this year. Let's say that next year their goal is 180K.

Projected 2016 sales:
MDX: 64K
RDX: 44K
ILX: 20K
RLX: 6K
TLX: 50K

That's 183,000 units from five vehicles and I think those numbers would give Acura a successful 2016 and I don't think they are all that unreasonable. For 2017 lets say they add the Acura version of the HR-V. I don't see how an Acura xDX would sell less than the ILX.

Projected 2017 sales:
MDX: 62K
RDX: 44K
xDX: 24K
ILX: 24K
RLX: 8K
TLX: 52K

That's 214,000 units from six vehicles and a record for Acura. The NSX will have <1000 sales I'm guessing but throw that in there as well.

The biggest assumption I'm making is with regards to the TLX. The only small luxury cars (according to goodcarbadcar) to break 50K last year were the C class and the 3 series. The IS will get close this year. The TLXs pricing and spec sheet and good reviews are what's leading me to give it that many sales. But you could easily take away 10K units from both of those numbers and I wouldn't be surprised.

I guess my point is that the 45-50K mark is probably the line Acura needs to get across for the TLX to be considered a solid success. Anything past 50K is a home run IMO.

compewterbleu

3G lovers, eh...

Berginyon8

The TLX is going to be considered a big success if it gets over 50k. Car forum people are still having trouble grasping this, but Luxury SUVs also make a brand. Acura's face is now the MDX. TLX will be the 2nd face of the Brand if it becomes successful. Acura lack a true 7/LS/S competitor to challenge those brands head on, but will do very well in the 2nd tier of sales. Acura's goal should be the '#4' top seller in the American luxury industry. As long as they finish above Audi,Cadillac,etc etc they are considered successful.