nhousepro

I was saying this from the start!

Costco

So what you're saying is, in order to shield the RL's inadequacy, the TL should be screwed out of having extra features that are standard in cars of this caliber. Lacking those features only puts the TL at a further disadvantage.... coming into its 4th generation, it still has a 5-speed automatic (of which nearly every competitor has gone CVT, 6-speed, 7-speed, etc.) so it will be that much harder to compete in terms of performance and economy, and on top of that, it quite arguably has, by far, the worst styling in this segment, and on top of that, it lacks features that the other cars have, for the same price? Acura really set up this new TL for success.

Then on top of all that, I don't see swiveling headlights that follow the steering wheel as an option at all, or a standard push start. Hopefully we see those added as options, but looking at Acura's past, its doubtful that they'll add options like that in the year-to-year changes.

Acura's whole "tech package" is a rip-off. So if you only want automatic windows, but you don't want nav, you have to shell out the extra 2+ grand for the whole 9 yards. You can argue that its cheaper for Acura that way, but most people don't give a crap, they want to save money, they don't care about saving Acura money. I do admit though, its a clever way to get people to buy stuff they don't want. Its just rare that I ever hear someone have something nice to say about a package that an automaker has, instead of the features that the package offers.

CL6

Every luxury auto maker puts stuff in packages. If you want a la carte buy domestic. Besides, when too many things are offered a la carte buyers get upset because it's impossible to find the car with what they want on it and it's a nightmare to sell those kinds of cars.

If you want 'cheaper' buy a Honda. Acura is a luxury brand. I hope Acura moves so far upmarket that the bargain shoppers just stay away.

And people would rather bitch about something than praise it... just human nature.

Colin

Did you even read what I wrote to Kobi? I said that IMO Acura is giving the TL what it needs regardless of whether it steps on the RLs toes.

Push button start is part of the tech package, so it is available as an option. If you seriously think Acura will ever go with 30 stand alone options you are but a young padowan learner.
What? The tech package is necessary for automatic windows? What? the tech package price has been announced? Stop being a silly rabbit.

Costco

Uhh.... yeah, I did. Which is why I mentioned the fact that Acura is missing several options and features that other manufacturers have, and that will hurt them, as its highly unlikely they won't be introducing ALL of those features within one generation. Did you even read what I wrote to you?

What notable new features did the 3G TL get over the years, besides the Active Noise Cancellation for the Type-S in 2007? I'm curious because I don't remember hearing about much.

Hey, maybe we can cross our fingers and hope they introduce an electric rear sunshade, a touchscreen nav, ventilated seats, swiveling headlights, noise cancelling windshields/windows, rear passenger window shades, an electronic trunk closer, all automatic up & down windows AND a 6-speed automatic all within the 5 year model span.....

I mentioned "standard push start", should have made that more obvious I guess. The swiveling headlights aren't even available on US RLs IIRC.... Acura sure isn't afraid of stepping on any toes by not offering that at all....

I personally would prefer a la carte and wait an extra few months for my car rather than paying for an unintuitive nav system. And no, I have no tried the TL's nav system yet but from my experience touchscreens are easier to use.

...but I never said they should be stand alone options. I agree with you, like I said its easier for Acura to make money that way, but personally I could care less about "packages" and the same goes for most people I know that are looking at new cars.

Never said it was or that it will. More of a hypothetical situation... since apparently the 4G TL won't even have automatic windows.

kobi2002

Protect?? if itsnot selling they need to make that more appealing to the buyer. The is250-350 has pretty much everything the GS has and the GS is all over the place just as the IS is. Not to knock on the Rl, but I see old when I see one meaing that it looks like an old person should drive it. Same as the toyota avalon. So if the RL is not selling as well, you need to go back and rethink how you made it, not pull things from the lower car to boost sale. That makes no sense

Ac Man

I think the biggest thing going against the 4th gen TL, besides the controversial styling and grill, is the transmission. Not having a 6 or 7 speed is totally unacceptable. Yes, a 6MT will be availabe next year, but why next year? Buyers who want this car, but really want a 6MT will have to wait until next year, which will lower sales for this year. And when will we see the 6AT? During the 2012 MMC? that's too long to wait for something that the competition had for the past 2 years.

It's safe to assume that Acura has been working on 6/7 speed transmission, and will only implement it when it's ready and ground breaking. But why wasn't it ready, and still isn't ready now that the competition has shown their hands? The average consumer will not care about how many speeds the tranny has, but when you talk about being tier 1, a 5 speed just won't cut it. I think having a 5 speed tranny is more offensive/disappointing than the looks/grill. And as someone mentioned before, I wish Acura would stop "holding back" features on their vehicles so they can screw buyers fom year to year. It's one thing to hold back on a feature, but to tell you that the feature you want will be available next year is just plain stupid!

kobi2002

I have been an acura/honda man since 94. They are starting to kill my love for this compnay. i just don't see howyou coild say you want to compare with the lexus and merc and the others but don't offer some of thethings theydon't. I just don't get it

Colin

Well, Honda/Acura has never done it ala carte, even back when you got the Integra or TL-S. I don't see it happening any time soon. On the other items, you feel the TL is under equipped for the price but I see it as offering far more features standard than most of the competition. On this we'll have to 'agree to disagree' cause we're just going 'round and round' and not getting anywhere.

Colin

I don't know the answer but how long does it take to design and test (for durability) a new transmission? 2-3 years? Well 2-3 years ago, Honda was just trying to find out of the changes to the existing 5AT fixed the problems. When I spoke to an engineer a couple of years ago about this very subject he essentially said "we need to get this one right first"

Ac Man

And that's what I figured. I knew that they were working on one, but everyone knows Honda/Acura will not put something out just to put it out. They're going to make sure that it's ready first, and that's what we all want. But why take so long? And what are they working on, a 6 or 7? S when they finally introduce the 6, the competition will have 7 speeds as the standard. Then we'll have to wait another 3-4 years for Acura to finally "Advance" up to a 7 speed!

Colin

I have no idea what they're actually working on, but suffice to say it would be the "honda way' to try to do more with less. There is no other reason that I can see that the J series is still SOHC.

VTEC Racer

You just answered your own question. The 3rd generation TL did not receive any notable new features over the years, yet it still managed to outsell the IS and G35 even when they first debuted. It has only been recently that the G35 has started to sell more than the TL on some months. Same for the IS. As you can see, the lack of any notable upgrades through out the year and the lack of options that match the competition item for item clearly did not affect the TL's sales significantly. Why would you think it would affect the 4th generations? The IS and G are only getting older and the G was getting domestic-like lease/sales offers after it's first year. There is a reason why Infiniti has to update the G more often and have it on a four-year cycle instead of the standard of at least 5 years for this class. Even with the G's more frequent upgrades and lower MSRP, the TL still managed to have a lead in the overall generation sales.

As far as having a 5 speed auto still... I think it is a pretty well known fact that the next TL will be based off of a RWD chassis. Acura has stated that this TL is a strong direction of where they are headed but it is NOT their definition of a tier one car. Clearly, the lack of a more advanced powertrain is what restricts Acura from calling this their tier one car. If you were spending your money, would you develop a 6 or 7 speed transmission that will be used in a FWD based car for only ONE generation and then spend even more money to develop a 6 or 7 speed transmission for the next generation car that will be RWD based? The SMART thing to do (what Acura is doing) is to hold off until the next generation model that will be on a completely different chassis and THEN give it a new transmission that you can use on the following generations after. This is what Acura is doing. Right now the G35x gets 17/23 MPG. The TL SH-AWD also using a 5sp auto gets 17/25 MPG. I doubt the G37X will be more than 1 MPG within the TL SH-AWD. The 2008 Infiniti FX35 AWD with a 5 speed auto gets 15/22 MPG. The new 2009 FX35 AWD with 7 speed auto gets 16/21. It DROPPED one MPG on the highway, thus keeping the average MPG exactly the same as the 5 speed version. I don't know about you, but something tells me that Acura will be far more capable to improve their fuel economy with the new transmission when compared to the current 5 speed.

kobi2002

Are you talking about the 04 tl when it first came out or are you talking about the mmc in 07? Because the 04 had things in it that most all car companies had yet. Bluetooth, 8 inch nav screen, very good voice recg system, mem seat tied to the key. This new tl really brings nothing new at all. i already spoke to 3 salesman at acura that I konw and they said most of them are disappionted with the features of the new TL.

123456SPEED

Not offering MT immediately is a mistake, esp if they are going bolder and sportier. Didn't they learn this lesson from the 2G CL? Offering a manual only in the 3rd year lost lots of enthusiasts who left and never came back.
Acura is too cautious.
I guess they are gonna make MT exclusive to the AWD model but it should be in the first year out..

B K R

Although I understand your analogy however I think that the 6/7 speed tranny would not have been a waste at all.. Reason being Honda & Acura would always share parts and this tranny could find placement in other FWD v6 in the Honda line up such as Accord, Odyssey etc and more over it could also be reused in future TSX which is rumored to have a small V6 in addition to the I4. In addition to the above it could also boost the fuel economy by 2 - 3 MPG using a better tranny and also get better performance figures..

Anyway its a moot point as I do not think Honda will have 6AT or 7AT in near future in any of its vehicle.. Seems like they are really behind the curve in this department

Costco

I see, so you think Acura's sales are more important than how many features it has.... interesting perspective. I personally don't hold any shares of Honda stock, so I honestly don't care how the TL sells nor do I see how it has anything to do with anyone's interest in it. I don't see why anyone would want a car just because it sells more than other cars. I'd actually prefer the opposite, if I were a new car buyer I'd want everyone to think "wow, what is that?" instead of "wow, I just saw 10 of those in the past 5 minutes!" which, sadly, has become the case for the TL. Props to Honda.... but I honestly don't care.

As I already said, the 3G TL's advantage of having the most features and among the best looks in class for a great price is now gone. Its now easily the ugliest car in its class, and has no notable features that its competitors don't have... in fact, besides having a nicer interior, I can't come up with anything it has that its competitors don't have, along with a 5-speed automatic.

RWD? Really? Where is your source from? There were several rumors, going back to 2007 and even before then, that the next Acura TL (the 4G TL) would be RWD. That rumor eventually became, the next Acura TL will be on a RWD-biased AWD platform. THEN it became what it is now.... the new Acura TL will have a 90/10 front/rear bias during regular driving. We'll see.... I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Also, you forgot to mention that the 2009 FX37 weighs over 150 lbs more than the 2008 FX35, thus the lower EPA ratings. The 2009 FX37 also had an increase in displacement and was tuned to make more horsepower, at the expense of a bit less torque, both of which usually end up decreasing fuel economy. Also, DOHC engines usually use more gas than comparable SOHC engines do, not to mention that the Nissan VQ engine is even older than the J-series.

So what you're saying is you would settle for 17/25 when Acura is easily capable of even more. Imagine if they were able to successfully implement direct injection into their engines, AND have a 6 or 7-speed automatic. They would easily have class leading fuel economy.

And someone already mentioned, there are still plenty of other FWD vehicles in Honda/Acura's lineup. No wait, scratch that.... EVERY single current production car in their entire lineup uses FWD, aside from the S2000 and the RL. Argue all you want but the only thing you're doing is making excuses for Honda's poor product planning/management. If they had a DI 3.7L V6 with a 7-speed automatic transmission, and exterior design that actually looked decent, they would easily outperform their competitors in terms of performance.

Costco

Agreed....

robbie82

Im so disappointed.....This car does not even come CLOSE to the initial visual impact the 3G TL did. I like the new RL much better. Its a shame what they did to it.

RSA_Secure

Interestingly enough, Honda Civics in Europe have 6 speed automated manual transmission. Why can't Honda do more for their luxury brand is beyond me.

Colin

You answered your own question. The Civic puts out 100-200 hp and relatively modest torque. They already have working 5ATs (for a 4 cyl) so they were probably free to move on to the next step for these transmissions.

The problem has always been with the 5-AT V-6 transmission and the next generation of this tranny is what we're talking about. You can't move on to the next step till you know the current one is working.

kobi2002

If thats what honda is thinking, I give somone else my money to give me somthing better. I've worked on honda's and drove them since 94 and now they are loosing me because they are not stepping to the plate. Your answer on why they dont go forward sucks and they are not getting my money this time around

KeithL

I know I don't follow this that closely, but where did Acura state next TL will be RWD? Also you don't wait 5 years to put in an item to compete with your competitors. I think the truth is I suspect Honda is in a delemia, there are proabbly debates raging in Honda all the time, they are torn with being able to leverage the Accord platform to save $$ and then packing in features. Also they coudl easily swith to a 6 or 7 speed autom in the next year or 2, look at the 3G TL, they changed tanny souricng a few times and I beleive the tranny in the 07/08 is absed on the RL tranny more then the previous tranny and the Type-S I believe is mostly if not a RL tranny. I think Honda needs to plant the flag somewhere, focusing on a grill as a way for people to identify their brand is ridiculous, the TL is quickly becoming the sole car in it's class that is FWD based and still based on it's mainstream sister (Accord). Sure the ES350 is a Camry, but is the ES the direct TL competitor or is it the IS?

RSA_Secure

didn't hear about it either.

RSA_Secure

I was going to include "I know its for less powerful I4" before I deleted it as it was obvious The point I was trying to make is its unbelievable how far Honda's behind its competitors in transmission department for V6s.

09TSX

I am not sure what the big deal with 5 or 6 gears for transmissions. I drive a TSX with 5 gears and I don't see any difference from my g/f VW who has 6 gears. I agree that I wouldn't want to go back to a 3 gear transmission but I am not sure having an extra gear is a deal breaker for me. Honda/Acura make wonderful and reliable transmissions and these are very efficient. I mean my 2009 TSX get about 6.3l/100km on the highway so that is nothing to sneeze at and more than acceptable. I wonder if this whole gear thing is not more about bragging rights....sorta like mine is bigger than yours... Don't get me wrong, I don't want Honda/Acura to stop developing and improving but only if they feel they can make a significant improvement on their current designs and NOT because they feel they must because someone else has it. I suspect I'll get flammed for saying this but I have my extinguisher nearby....

kobi2002

And alot of other things

Colin

I'm only voicing one possible reason for the lack of a new transmission, but it's one that is probably the most logical and it is based on a conversation I've had with a product planner. I'm sure they're not withholding just to make you upset.

Honestly, I can't believe the whining here. (not directed at you, but in general) They don't have it now, they probably will have it soon. If it's not soon enough for you, then by all means go somewhere else. I'm sure you'll find that every brand has it's strengths and weaknesses. This is why there are so many brands, as buyers evolve or change their priorities, they move on to other things.

Colin

Well, I don't know if its "unbelievable" but we've seen it before. Remember life before the MDX? HMC was the last to jump into the crossover SUV craze. Remember the first Accord V-6? Honda was blind sided by the Camry V-6 and had to rush and cram the old Legend 2.7 liter into the car while they finished up development on the J series.

By the same token, Honda has led the way with other products: First all aluminum chassis, first to comply with 1975 US Clean Air Act, first hybrid, first practical fuel cell, first with 4 wheel steer, first Japanese to set up a US factory...

Honda is going to do what Honda wants to do. This spirit of independence is what attracted many of us to the brand. Now it seems that everyone wants Honda to follow what everyone else does (RWD, V-8, Turbos for example) I can only wonder; if they were doing this all along, would we have been captivated by the brand?

09TSX

I think you have brough an excellent point!! People complain when Acura/Honda copies something (looks too much like a Toyota or a Nissan) yet complain when they don't copy their features. I think we should embrace individuality of car company and appreciate their strength and move to another brand if they don't carry what we want. If all cars were made the same, it would be pretty boring!! I like Acura for what they offer which is why I am driving one still today, the day they stop exciting me, I'll move somewhere else until they offer something to bring me back. I am not sure why everyone think that what THEY want is what everyone else wants and it should be part of Acura's plan.

AznImports602

That is hella ugly...

kobi2002

Car is still ugly

09TSX

kobi2002....SIMPLE....so you shouldn't buy one until you find it pretty I looked at a g35 and thought it looked hideous, what did I do, left the dealership and looked at something else. I am not shutting Nissan/Infiniti forever, when its time for buying a new car, I'll look at whats available at that time.

Costco

You have great points, and while I agree that in the past, Honda has been the pioneer of many great products. But while its great to brag about being the first of this and the first of that, they fail to capitalize on being the first. I think Toyota was the first hybrid, the 1st gen Prius was around before the Insight IIRC. Even if they were first, they failed to capitalize on the hybrid craze that's rampant nowadays... no doubt sales of Civics have skyrocketed recently, but very few get excited about the bread-and-butter DX/LX/EX models.

The NSX was a great accomplishment (and still one of my favorite cars) and it looks have worn very well but Honda let it get stale by not introducing an all new powerplant. At its introduction it was a Ferrari killer for a bargain, and by the time the 2000s rolled around, when it came to bang-for-your-buck, the NSX was considered overpriced, especially considering what the competition had.

Being different is nice and all, but in this case, for Honda, they are beginning to get left behind in regards to technological advancements and "firsts". Nothing from Honda recently dazzles me in terms of being the first, or even being one of the first. They now seem satisfied with being among the last.

The TL is inevitably going to go to a RWD/AWD platform and either a V8 or F/I V6 as it grows larger and larger with each generation. I'm pretty sure there's a good reason why you don't see FWD cars that weigh close to 4,000 lbs with close to 400 horsepower. I would like to see Honda be the first Japanese automaker to have a 400 hp FWD luxury sedan. That would be interesting to say the least (tongue in cheek)

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

Great discussion!
I think they reason Honda/Acura (the fact that I always mention them together is reason enough) is brand perception. Do you need a 6AT...no. But, these are supposed to be luxury cars. They have to be class leading or with the pack. People in this demographic want the latest and greatest...not what "is enough" The TL does not exude a sense of solidity that it's competitors do.

rick sambora

iTrader: (1)

Should a car always get bigger with each passing generation? I mean in 10 years do we expect this car to be longer than a football field?
I think the TL has been stripped off its sporty look. I cant say much about the performance since I have not driven it yet.
My wife owns a TL and I have loved its size and sporty look. I own a 04 maxima and always thought that Nissan had screwed up by making it expansive and robbing it off its legend.
Well 5 years down the line, guess what? Acura has done the same to its soon to be legendary 3rd gen TL. It has come a full circle, the max has gotten shorter, wider,faster and sportier. Trust me when I say this---RIDES AND FEELS AS GOOD AS THE TL TYPE S(current gen).
Now that we are both in the market again for cars. She is going the BMW route and I will probably go with the maxima. I will however drive the TL to see if the drive/performance/handling can make me get over the size and exterior.

darth62

I don't know where you got the idea that it is a "known fact" the next TL will be RWD. I've not seen any hard evidence in that regard. I've seen some speculation on chat boards and that is about it.

And, even if the next TL is RWD - let's keep in mind that the next TL is due in five more years and that most of us are interested in buying the TL NOW. So, what the 5th generation TL will look like is of little interest.

I also don't see why a future RWD TL would preclude a FWD TL with a more modern tranny now. You can get a 6-speed automatic on many econoboxes from non-premium brands NOW. First, from the customer's perspective, it really doesn't matter if it would be cost efficient for Honda to develop a 6-speed. I'll buy the car that is available to me with the best features. Second, cost efficiency is not really an issue because aspects of the development cost would be passed on to the Accord and other mass market cars.

As for the G, the 3.7L is actually slightly more efficient than the 3.5L. This is why the heavier G37 coupe actually gets 1 MPG more in the city than the G35 sedan (although shorter, coupe actually weighs 200 pounds more). I'm expecting the RWD G37 sedan to get somewhere between 18 and 19 in the city and between 25 and 26 on the highway. You can subtract about 1 - 2 MPG for AWD.

The MPG of the heavier, less aerodynamic vehicle with a less efficient engine tells us next to nothing.

Colin

They don't always get bigger. In the transition from 2G to 3G the TL lost length 193" to 189". The addition of all wheel drive takes up space and would have resulted in a G35 coupe sized trunk if they didn't make the car larger. The new car is slightly longer at 195 than the 2nd gen TL.

darth62

At 195/74 - it is actually bigger than some midsize SUVs. So, whatever the reason, it is starting to get a bit bulky.

Colin

Oh absolutely, but that wasn't what I was responding to. I was replying to the question 'does every generation have to get bigger'

The MDX is only 190 long but is 78 inches wide! The RDX is a tiny 180 long and 74 wide (from memory) so this car is bigger or wider than both of our SUVs. I was making the point that it needed to grow to have an acceptable amount of interior space with the AWD drivetrain added.