Bearcat94

We want your opinion of us, but only if it's a good one.

Acura "Survey" philosophy SUCKS!!

I hate cars

Yes, the speed density cars like the TL rely more heavily on the IAT input since the mass air is calculated instead of measured.

11.0 is pushing it on 91 octane but other brands do it without problems and I'm talking non direct injection cars. I remember the days when an 11:1 smallblock needed at minimum a "splash" of 100 octane if not straight 100. If Acura was not able to run high compression without detonation they should've lowered the compression instead of making the knock sensor a regular part of the timing map.

I thought my days of having to run expensive fuels were over but I guess I was wrong. At least in my turbo car I can run 87 with no problems if I chose to do so.

junktionfet

Yep...

Honda is clearly capable of working this out but apparently they insist on running absurd timing in the TL. My previous experiments with different plugs wasn't enough to compensate. Even the NGK 9s I tried (3 heat ranges colder than stock) still resulted in some very dull pinging.

Those combustion chambers have to be a pretty volatile place and there are lot of things working against them:

-The coolant temp runs high.

-The mixture is already fairly lean.

-The stock spark plugs are on the "hot" side of "normal"

-The exhaust valves are probably smokin due to the integrated "manifold" design and proximity of the catalytic converters.

-The compression is fairly high.

-The underhood environment stays exceptionally hot (IMO).

harddrivin1le

Those old advertised compression ratios had little to do with the actual compression ratios of production engines and were more indicative of the "ideal" compression with minimum achievable chamber volumes.

An advertised CR of "10.5:1" in 1969 would generally translate to an actual, "as measured" CR was about 9.8:1 (e.g. 1970 Stage 1 Buick). The "12.5:1" 427 L88 Chevy's actual CR was 10.8:1. I know two people who cc'd their bone stock chambers and ran the numbers. My mother's old "10.25:1) 1969 350 Chevy came in at 9.4:1.
Variations in production tolerances can't even come close to explaining those huge differences.

Octane back then was also different in that it was based solely on the RON number. Today's octane is PON, which equals (RON + MON)/2. RON is higher than MON, so the real octane difference between the "100 octane" fuels of 1969 and the 93 octane fuels of today is roughly 3 points.

I hate cars

By old I meant non LSx, Ford modular, etc, and non EFI motors. I see guys all the time running around in a 10.5:1 small block with 100 octane. They do their own tuning too... Point being it's a little easier to fine tune an EFI motor for pump gas than dealing with a carb and distributor.

junktionfet

I wonder if the airport will let me purchase some 100LL for my car.

Bearcat94

^^

If you've got a Petro Express nearby, check there. Alot of them here carry 100 or 104 "racing fuel" - it's usually only at 1 or 2 of the pumps, not on every island.

I hate cars

That's what my GN runs on for the street. Unfortunately I can tell you that your 02 sensors will be dead within two tanks of gas. Some guys have gone over a year using it in mixtures with 91 but I've never seen the tests done with cats. It's too bad we can't use it since it's only ~$1.50 more a gallon than the regular stuff and we could use it in low doses. While it's rated at 100 octane I find that I can run the quite a bit more boost with it than the 100 unleaded.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I actually once saw someone with a Porsche filling up with 100 it was insane how much it was costing him. However, that gas station recentionly switched to a Texaco so I dont know if they still carry it.

evanj5

My DIY 97 octane is all used up and I am back to 93 octane.

I had third gear pinging today that scared the sh1t out of me it was nasty.

I mean the engine has to be getting ripped apart inside.

I have to go back to driving like a grandma.

Bearcat94

The one I use in S Charlotte also changed to Texaco and they still have the 1 or 2 pumps with 100 Octane. $4.99/gal IIRC. Pretty sure I've seen it some where else also - Concord Mills or Huntersville, I think - maybe others.

Half 100 and half 93 (96.5 Octane) would cost ~$12 more per fill up. $25 per tank more for straight 100 Octane.

The gas I use is already Octane rated beyond the requirement (93 used vs 91 required). My pinging is on record with Acura Client Services - I'll let their engine blow up before I spend an EXTRA $12 every 5 - 7 days on gas rated FAR BEYOND the requirement.

As a one-off test .... maybe; Day-to-day, no dice.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Wait you are in charlotte, sorry I guess i dont know where on a map charlotte is but very cool way of describing it. Anyway the one I was talking about was off John Delnay and Johnston Rd and so my guess is the porsche owner filling up with a 100 lived in the country club. I mean if you are going to have a gas station with 100 it should be in a nice area.

As far as your TL thats a bummer what sucks even more is that theres no fix. What has Hendrick said? With the expection of one person there I have found there service to be top notch but I guess they can only do so much without an offical fix yet.

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

if you know someone with a plane or hanger who can get you access to the pump, you can sneak on the field after hours and get a fill up...i am an air traffic controller, and when i used to work at a small airport, i used to fill up my yzf r6 with 100LL all the time...

I hate cars

I used to drive my car to the pump at the main airport and get in line behind the planes pre-911. Now I go to the small private airport. The gate code hasn't changed in five years and I rarely have to wait in line. Just bring a couple five gallon jugs and fill up. The nozzle won't fit in the car and the fill rate is much faster than the regular pumps. If I get questioned which is rare, I tell them it's for my ATV.

Bearcat94

The one I use is at Rea Rd and Ardrey Kell.

As far as the car, I don't think I am quite as bad off as some. My pinging has never been *really* loud and with the cooler weather nearly non-existent. Seems to become noticable when the air temp gets up to ~70*. It's also only noticiable in a fairly narrow rev range. So it's not good, but based on this thread, could be worse.

Hendrick has been good, but like you say, they know there is no fix and can't do much. I did have them call Tech Line on my behalf - more than anything to continue the documentation of the problem. I really didn't expect anything new to come of it.

dingdongman

I'm getting pretty sick of reading all this talk of things you all added to your fuel to see the results. I'm guessing that acura will be using your own words against you when your engine does blow up, or as general ammunition, to let this problem continue to exist. Its kind of like going to your doctor and telling them you took a load of percocet and for some reason when you don't take it, the pain returns. Basically you lose credibility by tinkering without the proper credentials. I don't like it because if your tinkering hurts by chances of getting this peice of knocking crap off my driveway I'll be pissed off.
Basically the lemon laws here in Florida are pretty clear and easy to define candidates. A simple web search for **** lemon laws, where the **** are replaced by your state will easily provide results. The countless hours you all spend looking for airplane and racing fuel should be better spent trying to resolve the problem with a potential solution, not additional verification of this problem. We all know its there and not going away with the next cold front.
Thanks to the TECH#### for the most technical info yet to date. That type of info should and will provide great information to support a buyback under lemon laws based on information that these problems most likely are causing damage to our always depreciating investment in a high priced vehicle.

joelsaxton

dingdongman,

I have been looking into the lemon laws, too. But I'd much rather have them just fix it, although I don't know if this will ever happen.

It seems I'd end up losing in a buyback if I successfully lemon my TL-S, based on what I've spent on it, and since I have the car fully paid off already.

junktionfet

I too would rather them just fix it. Except for this issue (and the funky transaxle), I really like the car. Hell, I bought it so I must've really liked it over what I was happily driving before.

I hate cars

That's great and all and while you wait passively for Acura to come to your rescue, you've hammered your bearings for 50,000 miles. Answer me this, if/when they come up with the fix are they going to replace the motor that has taken a beating but still technically "ok"?

harddrivin1le

10.5:1...on 100 octane racing fuel.

So what?


That has nothing to do with the 11:1 and 91 octane combo that these Acuras are running.


Please provide empirical evidence supporting your statement that it's "easier to fine tune an EFI motor for pump gas than with a carb or distributor.


That statement has no basic in fact, provided that the tuners in question understand the systems they are working on.

EFI by itself provides absolutely NO advantage in compression ratio (or cylinder pressure) vs. allowable fuel octane.

harddrivin1le

This LS1 ran fine on 92 octane unleaded (and a10.25:1 CR) - both with the OEM EFI system and an aftermarket carb set-up.:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ls1/index.html

In fact, one could argue that a carb has a very slight advantage in terms of chamber pressure vs. fuel octane, since a carb benefits from the latent heat of vaporization and therefore provides a cooler mixture (up to 40 degrees F cooler) and an EFI system.

I hate cars

I'm getting the feeling that you enjoy arguing and taking threads waaaay off topic...

With EFI the manufacturer can have the A/F, timing, and EGR duty anywhere they want at any rpm they want and at any load they want. In other words they can fine tune a motor to run better on lower octane. No weights, springs, etc to play with. If it pings at only certain points in the rpm/load range, they can pull timing in only those areas. They can add more timing more precisely at low loads for gas mileage. With a distributor you have a sort of a crude load/rpm timing curve but can't fine tune it. Lots of people that run non-EFI cars run high octane at lower compression than EFI cars. I get the feeling you know this but are trying to start an argument. I'm waiting for the "I'm an engineer" statement.

harddrivin1le

That's all rhetoric.

Provide scientific, empirical evidence proving that EFI permits a higher static compression ratio than a carb. You won't because you can't.

Any EFI eninge that's running retarded timing on a routine basis is doing so because the engine was designed/built improperly for its recommended octane and/or the wrong fuel is being used.

PROPERLY designed/built EFI engines running their recommended (or better) fuel octane rarely, if ever run a retarded spark.

I hate cars

You've gotten pretty boring lately. I stand by my statement. If you want to debate this, start a new thread and I'll dedicate a couple seconds to it.

harddrivin1le

You haven't provided a shred of empirical evidence to back your "statement."

EFI (and its ability to retard spark via the knock sensors) merely reduces the likelihood of spark knock and the resulting engine damage that can occur.

It does not allow for a higher mechanical compression ratio.

Direct fuel injection does due to its cooling effect in the chamber, but that's a different story.

I hate cars

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Read above...

Then we can have a new thread where you cut and paste things you read on the internet but don't have a shred of real world experience with these things.

harddrivin1le

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...2134&engCat=ls

That CARBURETED GM LS2 (2 valves/cylinder - pushrods, 364 cid V8) crate engine runs fine with a 10.9:1 CR and 92 octane unleaded.

Examine all of their crate engines and you'll see that EFI by itself does not permit an increase in CR.


IN FACT, A CARBURETOR CAN ALLOW A (slightly) HIGHER CR SINCE IT YIELDS A COLDER INTAKE CHARGE DUE TO THE LATENT HEAT OF VAPORIZATION!


http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...o_results.html

"Latent Heat of Vaporization: Since EFI systems are dry-flow, the phase change of the fuel occurs as the charge enters the intake port of the cylinder head. This allows for the air in the runner to become heated as it travels from the throttle body to the point that the fuel is injected. A good rule is that for every 10 degrees the air temperature is increased, power drops by 1 percent. The phase change of the gasoline, demanded by the laws of nature, removes heat as it occurs. Power was down by only 3.5 percent with the EFI in comparison to the carburetor. That would represent an approximate 35-degree rise in inlet air temperature. This is a conservative increase..."

dingdongman

I'm not sure how you could loose much money during a buyback since they usually pay off the loan and refund your payments. Maybe you overpaid for your "booster EQ" or deep dish wheels?just list out your real objections as detailed as your motor chat and we will have a better understanding. Thnx

This thread looks pretty much cooked as now its a pissing match over who almost passed their second year of ME courses at nowhere U but is now off to stockcar classes at hilltop CC instead. Who cares.

If you think you are so cool when the target owner of the tl is a granny then more power to ya...hang on to the dream.

Anytime TECH#### wants to post more info for my attorney to use in the buyback case, I am waiting to hear his outstanding information. I would consider that member to be the most qualified poster so far, technically speaking. Just a hunch

jay0k

I agree; let's keep this on topic. My TL-S isn't pinging as bad now that the weather is cold but I still hear it every once in awhile. I will probably wait to bring it back to the dealer (again) in the spring so it's more noticeable.

joelsaxton

I have an upcoming appointment to *try* to replicate the pinging again. This will be the fourth time. I keep records of all the service I've had done to show that I tried multiple times. The main issue here is the intermittent nature of the pinging, so Acura could easily say that I just didn't demonstrate there was any problem. Hopefully this time they will hear it.

joelsaxton

Everything on the car is stock. I was thinking about performance upgrades but not with the engine behaving as it does. I am also afraid Acura could use it as an excuse if I changed anything.

Tech7427

thats misleading.

so your saying for instance. my old 12.5:1 static CR engine always ran at 16btdc? well it didnt. i cant post up my high cam vs. low cam timing maps due to my laptop is being borrowed by my friend.

anything below 16 would be retarded timing, anything above base timing is advanced.

We are comparing chevy pushrod engines to honda's ohc engines. seriously..

i dont care if we are talking about static vs dynamic compression ratio..

Static CR : in laymens terms, the first number is chamber volume with the piston at bdc, the second number is the volume with the piston at tdc.
now thats with the cams at compression stroke. lobes facing upward.

lets get all this mumbo jumbo out of the way. the dynamic cr is what the actual compression ratio is inside the engine with it running. its based off of intake cam duration.

when the piston is at bdc,getting ready to come up on the compression stroke, the intake valve is still opened. this in turn allows some volume of the chamber to escape back into the incoming air charge, thus reducing overall combustion pressure. say if i used adjustable cam gears to advance the intake cam to shut the valve earlier, the piston would be coming up, the valves shut, increased cylinder pressure, better burn, more power.

timing is all about picking where the peak cylinder pressure occurs to produce more power efficently..

im sorry i cannot provide you with the actual dynamic compression ratio for this engine as i do not know the Intake Cam ABDC closing specs, thats, after bottom dead center.

this engine could run fine on this compression ratio and good gas. I ran 93 octane with a 12.5:1 static cr and long duration cams.

honda is trying to squeeze so much power out of the engine, and get a complete burn to reduce emissions that its biting them in the ass.

im sure they are running a too advanced timing map coupled with agressive cam profiles.. but thats just my opinion.

so just because you guys see a high static cr on this engine, doesnt mean inside the engine thats whats going on.

high five.

im beginning to wonder if there is a simple solution, like talked about before, relocation of the iat sensor..

change the thermostat. etc..

theres just so much i could do..

joerockt

Many pages back it was mentioned that a CAI my help with things. I installed my AEM CAI about a month after I got the car. 3K miles/ 5mos later, still no pinging.

joelsaxton

joerocket,

did it ever ping before the CAI was installed?

dingdongman

mine started pinging around 2-3k and has worsened from there to 8500 miles or so now on the car at the 12 month point.

I rarely drive it because I just don't care for the car now, to be frank. I usually put 15-20k a year on my vehicles for the past 10 years. At least I'm doing my part by reducing fuel/oil consumption a bit, but I certainly would rather be driving a top running car which I have always enjoyed doing.

can someone verify a CAI and post results please?

FRST4DR

My dealer had told me he knows a Type S owner that installed a CAI and it only reduced the pinging, it did not go away.

joelsaxton

Yeah, I don't think a CAI is going to fix anything. Making air a little cooler might help a little but definitely wouldn't correct an improperly machined engine and/or bad ECU map, which is what we're probably looking at.

joerockt

Nope.

evanj5

What kind of TL do you have?

joelsaxton

I brought the TL-S in this morning to Santa Monica Acura. This time I was able to get it to ping a couple times during our test drive, but the tech said he didn't hear anything. This is the fourth time I've brought it in with this problem. This is really getting old. I told them they should talk to Acura corporate - I told them once again that this is a real problem with many TL-S's, and they said they would discuss with corporate, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't think I can succeed in lemoning a car with intermittent pinging that nobody from Acura has claimed to hear.