AWD vs RWD
Talon vs Mustang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTJj-YaMdsk


I think John was sleeping at the line.

 

AWD cars are very expensive to up keep, also driveline is hard to keep intact. My friend spent crap load of money on his WRX and made ok power. EVO's have better drivetrain than WRX. I came from SFWD class. We ran modified factory engines with huge turbos making over 800WHP. Veh has to be registered and insured with exhaust. Fastestest cars in the class were running high 8's.

You can make anything fast with enough money. Mustang with turbo would be the best option if looking for a fast mustang.

again, why are we comparing a TL to Mustang?

It does not make a difference which car it is, as long as its fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn7Xj2vtOAQ

 

Wait, so the actions of one owner has turned you away from RWD?

C'mon man, I know you're better than that. You are the only that matters. Just because Mr. White Vette owner lost control doesn't mean you will.

I've mentioned some of our local guys before here in Dallas & they have no problems running double the power of that 'Vette. (Skip to :40 & on).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y2FtGtnVWY

Ok, 1 guy almost loses it, but backed off.

Just depends on you, bro.

 

im tired of listening to 4 years of talk about your all mighty GN... NOW POST A VID OF YOU TAKING THAT MONSTER DOWN THE TRACK ALREADY!!!

i wanna see it in action... do you have any youtube links? you must have at least one?!? theres this one guy at the street legals that brings his flat 10 sec GNX every time i go.. that thing launches like a bat out of hell 0.o def one of my favs for sure!!!

 

Just an old nearly stock pump gas/street tire video from 2001 and another video of the same night of the car with me talking in the background. Never got any good vids of the car but I'm sure my friends have some. I've got some myspace pictures and the ripoff bodyshop pictures. I have a ton of engine build pictures. Now that I think about it, I have a video the parents took of the night I bought the car when I was 17 but that's not going on the internet.

 

Exactly. Driver is everything. As sideways as the Vette got in your video, if he had done what the other Vette guy did and overcorrect and hit the brakes, it would have ended the same way. But look how easily he keeps it under control.

The first video showed the rear of the Vette slide to the right just a little. All the driver had to do is let off the throttle slowly and BARELY turn the wheel to the right for a split second before straightening it up. It would have literally been a flick of the steering wheel. Instead he overcorrects to the right and stabs the brake, basically reacting like any 16 yr old girl would do in the same situation. No driving skill whatsoever.

These bad drivers make it seem hard to control. It's not. I jumped in my friend's GN after nearly a year away from fast cars and immediately went sideways making a left across all lanes onto a 4 lane highway a little too quickly. No big deal, it's easy and once you learn it, you never forget it.

 

To add, FWD is harder for me to control. I look like an idiot when trying to pull out into traffic hard with the front end jerking every where and the only way to stop it is to let off. With RWD, you can do a nice smooth slide instead of looking like you're having a siezure.

 

I guess it just comes down to personal preference then.

Where the company's headquarters are based doesn't mean squat when talking about the origin of the car. Pretty much the only thing that came from Japan and into the TL is money, and even that's debatable.

However, with the majority of today's Big 2.5's cars, many of the parts, engineering, platforms etc. are coming from overseas. Chrysler is being run by Fiat, which is one stop short of completely taking over Chysler's car design, engineering, and production. Even today's Charger and 300 use suspension bits from Mercedes. GM is also very similar. GTO and G8 were Australian, the Aura was a rebadged Opel, and even today's Camaro is more Australian than American. Not to mention that it's being manufactured only an hour east of me, here in Canadaland. I think most of the Cruze and Regal's R&D was done in Europe, mainly Germany. Ford of course has the Fiesta, and that's about it.

 

There are plenty of RWD cars in the 7s too. At that level of drag racing it's more about the amount of money and R&D you have in your car, not necessarily the platform. I've seen plenty of RWD cars out 60' AWD cars.

What we're talking about are street driven project cars, and I'm telling you from experience that AWD 4 bangers (especially Mitsubishis FFS...crank walk?!) are generally very finnicky, high maintenance, and expensive to make reliable.

 

Ahhh why do you guys even care? I went from a 442whp Sti to a Tl-s. Yes it very nice smoking almost everything, but if you want to smoke stuff like that you definately bought the wrong car. Dont even bother with the m3. When I had 320 whp I beat them from rolls. I dont know what you guys are even thinking modding tl's I love the car, but whats the point?

From everything Ive seen on this forums the gains are so minimal why even bother. Even the s/c is pathetic. 13's at 101? Really?

 

Well said. I might add

- on pavement with unknown grip levels (cold winter too)
- with normal street tires. No drag radials or autox tires.
- on wet roads (yes, I love dragging from a dig when wet. The FWD rocks. I yet to be beaten, not even close to it).
- being DD, no days off
- being a gutted car (EVO Diet !!) with little weight hanging over the rear wheels.
- with Baja Style driving over bumpy city streets (EVO = Rally Car )


I think I am leaning toward the EVO/STI camp again

 

supra mkiv FTW inaccurate

Im secretly looking for one

some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D81eO3pRlhI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO6Mg...eature=related

this one makes me LOL all the time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ianfMnOcffY

 

I would still take RWD any day. I've never been beaten by an AWD car off the start even on just drag radials.

Some RWD cars might surprise you. Bone stock the C5 and C6 Vettes hook up very well as do many others. FWD only works at low power levels. Once you have enough power to be competitive with other high powered cars you're fighting traction issues through 80mph.

AWD is great to a point but I would take the weight savings and less drivetrain loss of RWD in a serious car.

I don't race in the rain so I can't help there. As for cold streets and unknown grip levels, that's part of the game. You just have to know the car and drive it. I've been racing RWD cars since I was 17 and if I felt I could gain any advantages by going to AWD I would have done it.

 

Thanks IHC. This is the type of stuff that I need to know. Back in my days, 400 crank hp was considered to be a lot for a street car. These days, it's 600 wheel hp to 800 whp. So this is why I am very concerned with traction.

I have never rode in an AWD, not to mention never driven an AWD. I do know that my IROC didn't hook-up at all on street tires. The IROC was mega gutted with stiff factory suspension. Not much weight transfer going on.

Even with 3.73 gearing with a TH400, I could be in third gear (manual valve body = no downshift) and a 175 shot of nitrous would not even be close to hooking-up on street tires. Tach would shot up and the ass end would kick out instantly at 40 mph.

This is the cause for my concern with picking a future car. I was hoping that an AWD would be the ticket for putting 400-500 whp to the pavement with little drama.

Between a C5 with normal tires (no R compound) and an EVO with normal tires (no R compound) on the street (not a sticky track), both with 500 whp, both gutted, which would you pick to hook better from 0-80 mph with the smallest amount of drama (not to scare fellow drivers)?

Thanks for the mentoring/coaching IHC !

 

Inaccurate, your next car should be an R34 Report back on how the build goes haha.

Watching those supra videos makes me remember how much I wanted a skyline

 

I see where you're coming from.

In my experience, at 500whp, an AWD car will still have some spin from a stop. Most of my experience is with a couple Syclone/Typhoons. It's different than RWD when it breaks traction. Where RWD will kick the tail out and you countersteer and keep feeding it throttle, with AWD the entire car skates sideways. The only thing to do when it gets too out of line is to lift off the gas.

Street tire to street tire, AWD will have less drama. But if any drama starts and it doesn't automatically catch, you're probably going to lift as the car will point itself in the wrong direction quickly. Of course, it's extremely unlikely an AWD car will spin from a roll.

FWIW, the quick Sy/Ty guys convert to RWD once they get in the low 10s and quicker. AWD even with slicks on all 4 won't pull 60' like RWD will when properly setup.

There are sooo many factors to this decision and it would take me hours to write (which I probably will when I get home).

Pure street tire to street tire I would give the nod to AWD. But no one that I know of with a quick car runs on less than a drag radial. There's no reason not to run one other than the quicker wear.

To put it in perspective, I ran a ton of AWD DSMs back when the turbo Eclipses and especially the GSX models were really popular. I ran into many but only one with more than 500whp. It had a major lope at idle, race gas, big turbo, etc. I was on little 255/50/16 drag radials. We went to an old farm road to run. I did do a small burnout I'll admit. Off the start I pulled about 1 car on him immediately and stayed 2 cars ahead until I could put the pedal to the floor somewhere in 3rd gear.

A drag radial RWD car gives up nothing to an AWD car off the line assuming the driver knows what he's doing. Every car is different, you take it out and practice over and over. On the flip side, I've seen stock Mustangs at the track and street that smoke their drag radials and pull a worse 60' than stock tires.

You have to really drive the car. RWD will reward a good driver more and punish a bad driver. I got that perfect balance of no actual wheel spin from a roll but the rear would feel a little "floaty". After a run like this the tires would be very roughed up where they were tearing at the asphalt but not actually spinning. Of course I've owned the same car since I was 17 so it feels like an extension of myself.

I think it may come down to the type of races you plan on participating in and personal preference.

 

Yeah Inaccurate, don't let me dissuade you from looking into EVOs / STIs. Just be aware that 400+whp isn't much on the street anymore and it's going to take more money than expected to push them there reliably.

If I were going that route again, I'd probably build an EVO honestly. My buddy has an MR with an aftermarket clutch, 272 cams, intake, straightpipe exhaust, MBC and a Vishnu custom tune and he was running 12.1s at the track all day long. Not bad for about $2500 worth of parts.

 

To be fair to AWD vehicles though, if money wasn't an option I'd pick up a used Gallardo for like $80 grand on Ebay and take it to this shop here in Charlotte for the race engine twin turbo upgrade!!

http://www.undergroundracing.com/veh...-gallardo.html

My buddy saw their new project car on the road here in Ballantyne the other day and it's running about 1600whp. Flat black Gallardo with flat black wheels. It took off like a top fuel dragster! I hope I see it around at some point..

 

Hey WRX, since you seem to have more experience with 4cyl AWD cars than most I have a question for you. Derailing the thread more but it seems off the tracks already anyways.

I've always wanted to build an EVO for weekend driving or track use. I will eventually when I have the money probably but with what you were saying about them being more expensive on upkeep... how much worse is it compared to a sedan like a TL.

Would I be expecting to spend thousands repairing stuff all the time?

 

I got plent of wheel spin from 442whp. I would depend how I set the 2step up.

 

General maintenance is about the same. With AWD cars at that power level you need to start taking into consideration drivetrain parts like the clutch, and then each next weakest link down the line. Transfer case, axles, etc. I've actually seen videos of stock STis breaking axles at the track. Mine held up fine at 560+whp but I knew how to let my $2500 carbon/kevlar clutch take the stress instead

So to answer your question, if your goal is big power then yes, budget a lot of money for all of the little things that need attention with a proper build and THEN budget more for the stuff that's going to start to break. And you will need to eventually save for a motor rebuild if you're shooting for the 500+whp range (if you're doing a Subie anyway, I think EVOs have stouter blocks...I cracked a piston ring at 392whp on a good tune). My block was built for 800+whp but I ran out of fuel system and didn't feel like dumping another $1500 into ANOTHER overhaul of it.

 

The GT-R is both RWD and AWD..

 

Thanks for the info man. They definitely seem like they'd be fun cars to build, as long as I already have a nice daily driver.

 

No prob man. They are definitely fun cars and have one of the best sounding exhaust notes for a 4 cylinder I've ever heard, just be realistic about what they are before you get in over your head. I would still love to have an RSTi (GC8 Impreza with a full STi drivetrain swap modded to about 350whp).

 

It also get's Jay Leno's seal of approval.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzNE...eature=related


I'd like to see a head to head between AMS's GT-R vs. UGR's Gallardo

 

haha yea, I wouldn't even start to think about building one until I get a better job. Modding this TL alone is stealing all my money.

 

Pretty sure the 1500+whp Gallardo is going to pull on the 1000whp GTR :P

 

More than likely but it would still be cool to watch.

I think UGR's Gallardo is in the low 9's and AMS's GT-R (SR850 package) is high 9's. Incredible.. They stay pretty straight down the track too..

Checking some vid's out.. SPE has the fastest GT-R currently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZV6BBE4w14

UGR's monster Gallardo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwIniaHIUE

 

It would definitely be an awesome race to watch! We've seen that green TT Lambo around some of the Cars and Coffee events, it's pretty ridiculous. That video was pretty old, I think that's their non-built TT package running bottom 9s. Apparently the built motor package is a relatively new offering, I don't know if they've taken it to the strip yet...

 

That's so bad ass. I got to drive a stock one around town for a night and that was fun. A TT model would be amazing.

I have to say that an AWD mid engine car is a completely different animal than an AWD front engine car. You're talking about a car that can just about pull tire on mere drag radials in RWD form.

 

For every fast import there's 100 fast domestics. Plus you can't pull tire in AWD. And for the weenies that can't hold on to a 500hp Vette or Viper in a straight line I give you this, real men driving fast cars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKB7rot_FOY

There's one 6 second @221mph V6 in there along with about 6 9 second street legal street driven cars.

 

LS9 with a 911 tranny in a TL I will get it done one day

 

That is the day I will truly be jealous of a TL. It will have the performance to back up the looks. With the already awesome suspension I can only imagine what it would do with good weight distribution and RWD.

 

I finally got to watch the videos closely. The Lambo leaves with the front tires an inch or two in the air. You can see it in the still shots so I don't think AWD is doing a whole lot there. The GTR is spinning first and second and I swear I can hear a little screeching going on at the beginning of third.

 

 

I did sort of contradict myself saying an AWD car won't pull tire when the Lambo obviously did.

 

Still.. pull tire is an understatement with those monsters.. more like rotate earth. I'm not sure they actually moved down the track.. I'm starting to believe they pulled the finish line to them.

 

He's pushing a quote from F&F, even though he got the grammar wrong.

 

IIRC, Lamborghinis send around 70% of their power to the rear wheels & only use the other 30% when the car's ECU believes it needs it.

Doesn't surprise me as I've talked to a few Lamborghini owners & there's been a few that have said these cars will drive like a RWD & bite you in the ass if you're not careful on the throttle.

Nice little example here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-pi3nu8kyo

 

^The Lambo in the video is a Diablo, which is RWD^