Dave_B

Sounds to me like Inaccurate should get a last gen Evo RS which is 200lbs lighter than the standard EVO. EVO RS differences:

1) No wing
2) No power windows or locks
3) No sound deadening or trunk lining
4) No keyless
5) No ABS
6) No rear wiper
7) No vanity mirrors
8) No map lights
9) No HIDs
10) No CD player
11) Black mirrors and door handles

Inaccurate

Now that looks interesting

wraithvr442

Sounds like you should get a 3000gt VR4 or Stealth TT. You can buy either in decent condition for about 10-15k. They will do mid 12s with some basic mods and pull 1.6-1.7 60s on street summer tires with a decent clutch and a good driver. Put on a pair of hybrid stock turbos and some fuel and it will put down 425-450awhp easily with a good FMIC.
If you want to get serious and have some coin, you can beef up the tranny, replace all three diffs with Quaifes which makes it a little more RWD biased, bellhousing brace, billet end caps and put in a serious $7-8k turbo setup with forged internals and make yourself 900-1300awhp.
Mines just on hybrid turbos and has an AEM standalone and I can usually launch hard enough off the line to stay side by side with smaller 600cc crotch bikes for about 150 feet. It made 420-440awhp last dyno session and it had a failing fuel pump and a big boost leak. I bet I could make 500awhp now on pump with less then 17psi on a cool day.
Plus, its a sweet looking car that rides great and just needs a drop and some decent coilovers to handle really well. Its expensive if your looking to build something to race bikes, but you cant beat the AWD for street situations and you get 20city/25mpg hwy if you want to drive off boost. Run a standalone like mine and it can get close to 30mpg running it in closed loop with a wideband.

Check out this one! Nelson is a douchebag but he has alot of cash to burn. His cars even faster now this was a year ago. I think he should paint it but he is doing it right getting the power down first. You can build a similar car for about $20k in parts if your handy and if your going that far, you can get a $5000 car with a blown motor and trans to start with. Mines pretty immaculate and I would not sell it for less then $20k as is.


http://www.youtube.com/v/_UHPUr7gSoc...=en_US</object>



Sam

wraithvr442

Heres another 1000hp one that looks alot better with a much nicer owner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V81C50gShUc&NR=1

This car is pure street right down to its approx. 3700lb weight and will keep up with 1000cc race bikes

WRXtranceformed

VR4s are pretty cool cars and you don't see a whole lot of modded ones around (or many around in general) but you're starting off over 300lbs heavier than a stock R32. With the type of weight reduction that Inaccurate gets involved in, he could probably have an R32 down to 3100lbs.

wraithvr442

To make the kind of power you can make with a 3.0 liter V6 TT over the VW R32, the 300lbs isn't really a significance. I work with a guy who is a Subaru fan and has a 3100lb 2001 WRX and even after he did all the mods he could possible do to his car (runs a 16g) and keep the stock motor, my VR4 will put 5 buses on his WRX before I even get out of 3rd gear (goes to 110mph, 4th to 150, and still have 5th and 6th). He makes around 300awhp and I make 400awhp but I also make another 100lb-ft of torque that pretty much negates his 600lb weight advantage over me. I like VWs but $ per $ its easier and cheaper to make power from something already factory TC then trying to add power to an N/A car. The twin 16g setup I have will make 600awhp at 18psi and the factory motor can take it. I can understand handiling issues needing less weight, but power overcomes weight quite easily, and power in an R32 is a hard commodity to come by without dumping a ton of money into it

Sam

wraithvr442

I think an EVO9 would even be a great starting place and the stock turbo goes into the low 11s before its out of steam

Inaccurate

Just did a quick google on the VR4. Wow. I have seen those cars (VR4) on the road several times before. I had no idea that they were (or able to be) fast cars. Thanks for the info.

WRXtranceformed

16gs are tiny turbos! I don't know why he even bothered doing a turbo swap if he went that small. I guess it's different when you do two of them like you did...I was always under the mentality that if you're going to turbo swap you should go mid-sized to big or go home.

And to be fair, you're comparing a 2.0L turbo to a twin turbo 3 liter. The VW has a 3.2 standard and supposedly makes 550+ pretty easily with bolt on turbo kits.

Edit: and again, I'm not really sure why I'm defending VWs because they're mostly unreliable junk especially when modded. I was just using that car as an example. I've heard VR4s get pretty pricey when you start pushing higher power levels too. Weight definitely makes a difference when you're comparing cars of similar power / torque levels though.

Dave_B

The reasons you see so few modified 3000GTs and Stealth R/T is because:

1) They were never very reliable

2) They're overweight

3) They never very many

4) They a bitch to work on.

5) The drivetrain isn't up to snuff.

In the end, these cars are money pits and you'd be far better served going with something like an STi or EVO or even an VW R32 if you're willing to deal with VW's reliability issues.

Majofo

Pay particular attention to #2.

I hate cars

I wonder if that's could be turned around into a good thing. Is most of the weight necessary weight or can Inaccurate remove 1,000lbs lol. I bet the drivetrain would be pretty reliable with some serious weight reduction.

I saw one of those back when they were new up in the air and they use some of the smallest turbos I've ever seen.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

I think you live in Dallas so you should know Jotech Performance & Racing. Kenny Tran and his Co. said they could accomplish it.

I hate cars

It can be done no doubt. I love the bodystyle and interior of the TL so much that if I did not already have a toy, I would consider an LSx RWD swap for a project. I wonder if the Vette transaxle would be a cheaper alternative to a 911?

Majofo

I think we can pool 4 or 5 aziners to do this..

Let's start it off:

1. Maj
2. Inacc
3. IHC
4.
5.

Inaccurate

1. Maj
2. Inacc - Only if AWD and only if lightweight
3. IHC
4.
5.

Majofo

Whose TL do you think we're using? Your TL of course.

Rick_TL-S

Not going to happen. I have nothing but respect for the guys, but my TL is one of the few they've done work on & they barely know that much of the 3G's little "features" that Hondata & J&R have to gone through to get to where they're at, so I wouldn't really trust them to tell me that such things are possible within $23K.

I'd send the car to NA-V6 up north before I'd send it to Jotech for that kind of work.

NAiL05

I dont pay attention to Jotech much. They are well known but there work is sketchy to me. People speak highly of them but IMO they are not that great there are companies in the Dallas area that are 100 times better than they are. I would rather cough up the extra money and go to T1. Anyway its gonna be a lotta custom stuff if you want a RWD setup.

IMO you can accomplish this with the stuff in your car already. YOu just need to source a rear diff along with a custom driveshaft. Anyone remember the drift Honda Element? Thats still using a honda transaxle as I recall in an article I read quite a while back. It didnt take them long to make it either.

wraithvr442

I will agree to disagree since I own one and put 110k hard miles, 100s of 1/4 mile passes most of them at over 400awhp and never popped a motor or any drivetrain component minus the stock clutch which could never take the power. Every project car is a money pit so I dont disagree with that or the fact that they are not an easy car to work on or understand if your a newb to modifying imports.
What do you call heavy? You know its the same weight as almost every modern car out there right? You know it weighs less then a 2009 Nissan GTR and only 100lbs more then an EVO10. It weighs 100lbs more then a Transam or a Camaro, both not having the AWD or the luxury features the car came with. Mine weighs 3600lbs with nothing more then lighter wheels, coilovers, carbon fiber one piece driveshaft, light flywheel and lighter battery. I can still drop another 100lbs with things like CF hoods and racing seats. Many people have the car down to 3200lbs and it still looks stock and some crazy people have the AWD car down below 3000lbs. Heres another example of one still on stock motor, and little 9bs doing 10s

Again, not being argumentative, just educating people who state things as fact but do not have first hand knowledge of the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MmNwRvysh4

Thats all done with lightening mods and good tuning....just imagine what he could do with a real turbo setup and built motor under there instead of the stocker which never even had the valve covers taken off! In addition, you can pretty much build the car to suit whatever your looking to compete in because there are tons of parts available to beef up the entire car for pretty much insane power levels.

Sam

Abe_Froman

iTrader: (5)

Sorry if I missed it but has anyone mentioned the 03-04 Cobras? I've heard a lot of positive things about them. From what I've read they have 390hp stock and every Cobra owner swears that they put down more then that. Plus the power to money ratio is way better then it will ever be on a TL.

And since everyone is youtube whoring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDuLP...eature=related


P.S. the American V8s are the best sounding engines, at least IMO they are.

wraithvr442

The Terminator cobras are insane cars and can pretty much put down 600rwhp on stock supercharger with just a handful of parts. I have always been a domestic car fan because its so easy to make power from a V8. On the new Vette and Camaro, just a supercharger will put either car into the 10s quite easily, same with the new 5.0 Mustang. I have owned imports and domestics and the domestics just make way more power more reliable then any import except maybe a Supra being the one big exception.

I hate cars

I have to ask how a stock turbo 3000GT will trap 123mph with stock turbos? Are they modified but in the stock housings, is it running nitrous, or is it light? I've heard of some barely touching the 11s but 10s at 123mph seems a little too good to be true. If I'm wrong, congrats on pulling it off.

I hate cars

Nevermind, just saw that it was lightened. Good bang for the buck.

Rick_TL-S

I just talked to Tony tonight from Jotech about the TL being RWD & costing $22K to do so, and he said it's doable, but impossible to put a price tag on it b/c the shop doesn't have much experience with the car. Wouldn't really be a TL anymore either & would be better off just buying another car was kind of our final conclusion.

Majofo

Thanks for the edumacation Sam.. I was under the impression they tipped the scale over 2 tons.

NAiL05

Terminator cobras are awesome but they are boatsss

Majofo

boatsss n hoess

7.5AV6MT

I gotta have me my Boats n Hoes




Oh yeah and innac i think the evo rs is exactly what you're looking for.

Majofo

Dave_B

I'm solely going off of curb weights straight from Mitsu. Depending on the year, the 3000GT VR4 tips the scales at 3,780lbs to 3805lbs. That's a far cry from 3,600lbs. As for the reliability of the tranny, the syncros are weak. Luckily you can now service the tranny rather than having to replace the tranny like you had to years ago. There's also the issue with the viscous coupler. Hold on to your butt because if that fails because ALL 4 wheels will lock AT SPEED!!!!!!! You've got to keep a watchful on that or else it could possibly kill you.

In terms of overall reliability, I had friends with these cars. At the time, the VR4 was one of the most advanced cars on the market. It had an electronically controlled exhaust, raising and lower front and rear spoilers, AWD, rear steer, electronic suspension, and some other features most cars didn't have. It was advanced, but those parts can and do fail. They also added weight.

Then there's the question of turbo accessibility. There is absolutely none. It's the same thing with the 300ZXTT. If you need to fix or upgrade something on or near the turbos, a lot of crap has to come out.

These cars were sweet back in the day, but finding a good condition one is nearly impossible. You'll also have to contend with wear/tear and reliability issues on a 13+ y/o car.

Back in day, VR4s were mid to high 13 second cars with decent driving and a clutch abusing launch. With some simple upgrades, you can get to 400whp pretty easily and be doing low 13s/high 12s. However, it's easier and cheaper to do it with a handful of much newer, nicer, and better performing (handling/braking) cars.

Rick_TL-S

They must be the equivalent of cigarette-boats then.

Majofo

Have you posted pics of your new supra yet Rick?

Rick_TL-S

I haven't got it yet. Have to go down to Houston to talk to the owner & get a few drives in it first.

Majofo

damn.. well if you do buy it.. make sure you hit Austin on your way back

and let Majofo ride shotgun. Have d90 will take video & rolling shots..

Inaccurate

Too cool. The first time that I ever seen anyone using a subliminal message on Acurazine.

wraithvr442

Its the example of an under 3000lb VR4 I was talking about. The engine is an over 100k mile stocker running on a standalone AEM. The motor dynoed only around 360awhp and its still on stock everything including tiny 9b barbie hairdryer turbos. I was just showing an example of what you could do to a 'heavy' car is your motivated enough. The parts that make it heavy are all the luxury items and the active everything that really dont make it faster but sound cool. You can even remove 75lbs of active steering out of the car or buy a 1995/6 Stealth which never came with about 100lbs of options. I think this owner was really just trying to make the car lighter to prepare for real engine mods and a giant single turbo. I cant wait to see what the car can down with another 300-400awhp.

Sam

wraithvr442

I'm solely going off of curb weights straight from Mitsu. Depending on the year, the 3000GT VR4 tips the scales at 3,780lbs to 3805lbs. That's a far cry from 3,600lbs.

I said mine was 3600lbs--read the mods to do it--they weren't intentional weight reducing mods because each one makesthe car faster or turn faster.

As for the reliability of the tranny, the syncros are weak.

The synchros are not weak, the drivers are weak, like I said mine has 130k+ miles no synchro replacement needed yet. Still shifts awesome --(actually one of the synchros are the same as Supra synchros and one other is a Porsche synchro and the others are also Getrag similar design different shape). Most of the synchro issues are caused by cable alignment after a clutch service or just poor pedal adjustment/driving

Luckily you can now service the tranny rather than having to replace the tranny like you had to years ago.

CRS in Mahwah NJ was rebuilding these boxes for Mitsu under contract and had all rights to the parts but us enthusiasts had access to parts for a long time even before getting them from Japan.

There's also the issue with the viscous coupler. Hold on to your butt because if that fails because ALL 4 wheels will lock AT SPEED!!!!!!! You've got to keep a watchful on that or else it could possibly kill you.
not a viscous coupler issue, its a transfer case issue
dumb asses who never check the oil in the transfer cases were the first casualties. Do not buy a car you dont know how to maintain or do not have the money to bring in for service at regular intervals. The cases also leak so again if you never look under your car and expect an idiot light to come on, that can happen. Mitsu recalled them as a safety issue---mines original-and is always checked when I do oil changes

In terms of overall reliability, I had friends with these cars. At the time, the VR4 was one of the most advanced cars on the market. It had an electronically controlled exhaust, raising and lower front and rear spoilers, AWD, rear steer, electronic suspension, and some other features most cars didn't have. It was advanced, but those parts can and do fail. They also added weight.

Its not Honda reliable but Honda doesn't make a fast sports car unless you think an NSX is fast. But your right about that.

Then there's the question of turbo accessibility. There is absolutely none. It's the same thing with the 300ZXTT. If you need to fix or upgrade something on or near the turbos, a lot of crap has to come out.

the 300Zx needs an engine removal to do turbos unless your silly and masochistic. The VR4 takes 8 hours to do a turbo swap if you dont know what your doing and 8 hours to do an engine and tranny removal/replacment if you do know what your doing. I can change a front and rear turbo in about 5 hours or just a liesure afternoon. Its no Grand National or Supra as far as turbo swaps or engine work goes but its AWD and almost nothing in a V6 with AWD gives much access.

These cars were sweet back in the day, but finding a good condition one is nearly impossible. You'll also have to contend with wear/tear and reliability issues on a 13+ y/o car.

absolutlely true! but they are out there for people with more then $5000. Kids are cheap and they buy these things beat to hell and then complain when an engine and trans cost them $8000 to fix it.

Back in day, VR4s were mid to high 13 second cars with decent driving and a clutch abusing launch.

The first gens were high 13s, the 2nd gens were mid to low 13s stock---low 13s with a good driver---I did a mid 13 my first time at the track, and a mid 12 at 109mph with 'bpu mods' (filter, boost controller maxed on stock 9bs, exhaust, no cats, catback) 1.7 60 foot street tires.

With some simple upgrades, you can get to 400whp pretty easily and be doing low 13s/high 12s.

try mid 11s at 120mph with just a hybrid turbo swap (look stock) injectors, 'bpu' and tuning pump gas---run race gas with the same hybrids and you can do 10s if your good

However, it's easier and cheaper to do it with a handful of much newer, nicer, and better performing (handling/braking) cars.

newer and more expensive sure, better performing stock? sure but not by much even 15 years later cars like EVOs, STi better braking? The stock VR4 was stopping from 60 in less then 116-123 feet with 3700-3800lbs stock for the second gens (1994-1999)--Stealth stopping fastest an NSX for comparison stops from 60 in 116 feet, an EVO 108'


I am just saying that the perception is a little bit negative compared to reality. Its an old car, but if you had a $30k budget, you could build a really fast, great handiling, good looking VR4 and thats not alot of money. Its about what a new used Vette would cost you. Alright I am done now I promise its just a car I am proud of and one which has never let me down. On the street, the ONLY car (cheapest) that is out right now that has the same potential cost you $80k ---Nissan GTR and its drivetrain is known to break under stock power levels and no one knows if it can handle 1300awhp like the VR4 Getrag unit has been shown to survive under with some simple bracing----the gears dont chip or break as long as the case doesn't crack! EVOs have made more power but you would never drive that lag monster on the street without a 2 step, nitrous spooling it up and anti-lag. The reason I stuck with small turbos is reliability and reduction of lag. I dont like driving an on/of switch--the only place thats fun is a track.

I hate cars

I remember how neat the cars were when new. I was with the parents in '91 when they were new car shopping. At the dealer the salesman was shoing the 3000 GT VR4. I remember specifically him saying no other car performed better overall than some Ferrari.

I guess my opinion changed slightly because all I ever see around here are beat up non turbo models driven by 16 yr olds and riced out. There was one turbo model driven by a kit that tried to race my TL when it was new. I floored it just for the heck of it and beat him by a few cars. I'm sure it was on it's last leg and running very poorly.

After seeing the last post maybe this car is not a bad idea. They can be gotten cheap. Sounds like a ton of non essential weight can be taken out. A lightweight version can go 10s on street tires with basically BPU mods and I'm sure the light one in the video wasn't anywhere near the extreme that Inaccurate will go to. I'm willing to bet he'll take 1,000lbs out of it.

I hate cars

Agreed. That's why I don't like super small displacement engines with large turbos for anything but a pure race car.

For a street car the smaller turbos like you have are much more fun and quicker light to light. Drivabiltiy without having to drop 3 gears just to ease around traffic is nice.

I made my own version of anti-lag. Retarded the timing to 0 BTDC only when the throttle was at 100% and MAF was below 120gr/sec which basically meant the turbo had not spooled but the pedal was to the floor. It literally had instant spool on a pretty large turbo. I ended up turning it off because it created EGT spikes of 1,900 and more.

I've always wanted to do a true anti-lag start on the street. Can you imagine the people around you when it's popping and backfiring, shooting flames out of the exhaust?