NvrDwn

I just called and he said he will get to it by the end of the night.

NvrDwn

Ok so I have a question. From my thinking and little knowledge of cams and vtec I am thinking it is best to have a cam that is made for low end power and high end power, instead of just one. After all thats what vtec is for, so why not take advantage of that when custom grinding a camshaft?

For those who know ILC IHC youngen gerzand?? How would you spec the DD part of the cam for optimal performance below 5K and how would you spec the vtec side of the cam?

From my understanding the lower the duration the better low end power, so maybe a duration of 215 and 210 and for the vtec side a duration of 255 and 240

Those aren't any real set numbers, just thrown out there so you get what im saying.

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

Changing and phasing... iVTEC! If only it were that simple!

NvrDwn

I wouldn't know. Thats why I ask! Why isn't it simple?

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

I'm just playing with ya man. I'm sure someone will chime in.

Sonnick

I'll take a stab at this one....

We do have 2 cams, you're right. However, we have a SOHC engine, meaning there is one cam for both the intake and exhaust sides, and VTEC. In a DOHC engine, what you are saying could work, but not for ours as far as I know. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

We have vtec on the intake side so. We hae a low and a high love. The issue is that there is no vtec on the exhaust side for our year. So the biggest consider will be on the exhaust side. So more consecrating for life and duration has to be plan out correctly. Too much duration and you lose low end and gain top end since there is some overlap of the valves ( this is what I gather from reading) please correct me if I am wrong

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Honda/Acura j-series camshaft design explained:

Each cylinder head has only one cam on top and as Sonnick has made clear, this makes the engine a SOHC design. One cam over one head, easy.

Because each head has both intake and exhaust valves (four valves per cylinder- 2 intake and 2 exhaust) this means that one cam must be able to open and close each valve during engine operation. Each valve has its own "dedicated" lobe for operation. There is a lobe for each intake and a lobe for each exhaust valve...making, again, four valves total.

Now then, lets factor in VTEC to this equation of mechanics. VTEC is nothing more than a mechanism that allows a fifth cam lobe to actuate both intake valves using a hydraulic system that locks both intake rockers at higher engines speeds using a steel pin. This fifth lobe carries a much more aggressive camshaft profile than the other two intake cam lobes. The VTEC lobe is generally referred to as the "high speed" cam lobe because its designed to give the engine much more power at higher RPM ranges. The other two are usually referred to as the "low speed" cam lobes and provide the engine with excellent torque, drivability, emissions as well as fuel economy.

This enabled Honda to run a single camshaft (or DOHC) engine that has excellent power all throughout the powerband. Most engines (without VTEC or similar design/concept) are either have excellent low end power or high end power...never both. This gave Honda a superior advantage over EVERY other manufacturer but wasn't long before others began creating their own versions of VTEC for their engine designs.

Honda also created the worlds first free flowing cylinder head design using their infamous port shapes and combustion chambers. No other manufacturer could ever compare to what Honda gave the world (in both performance and reliability) and that's what makes them the best. Nearly ALL automakers have stolen or copied ideas and designs from Honda and because of that, Honda will always be the original badass IMO.

Hope that was a clear enough explanation to VTEC for you.

thanks.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

^Great explanation. I'm glad I didn't attempt that during happy hour. Lol

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are better designs out there now, eg Toyota...

NvrDwn

[QUngone501;14555333]Honda/Acura j-series camshaft design explained:

Each cylinder head has only one cam on top and as Sonnick has made clear, this makes the engine a SOHC design. One cam over one head, easy.

Because each head has both intake and exhaust valves (four valves per cylinder- 2 intake and 2 exhaust) this means that one cam must be able to open and close each valve during engine operation. Each valve has its own "dedicated" lobe for operation. There is a lobe for each intake and a lobe for each exhaust valve...making, again, four valves total.

Now then, lets factor in VTEC to this equation of mechanics. VTEC is nothing more than a mechanism that allows a fifth cam lobe to actuate both intake valves using a hydraulic system that locks both intake rockers at higher engines speeds using a steel pin. This fifth lobe carries a much more aggressive camshaft profile than the other two intake cam lobes. The VTEC lobe is generally referred to as the "high speed" cam lobe because its designed to give the engine much more power at higher RPM ranges. The other two are usually referred to as the "low speed" cam lobes and provide the engine with excellent torque, drivability, emissions as well as fuel economy.

This enabled Honda to run a single camshaft (or DOHC) engine that has excellent power all throughout the powerband. Most engines (without VTEC or similar design/concept) are either have excellent low end power or high end power...never both. This gave Honda a superior advantage over EVERY other manufacturer but wasn't long before others began creating their own versions of VTEC for their engine designs.

Honda also created the worlds first free flowing cylinder head design using their infamous port shapes and combustion chambers. No other manufacturer could ever compare to what Honda gave the world (in both performance and reliability) and that's what makes them the best. Nearly ALL automakers have stolen or copied ideas and designs from Honda and because of that, Honda will always be the original badass IMO.

Hope that was a clear enough explanation to VTEC for you.

thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ok thanks. So it would be possible to grind the vtec lobe and both exhaust lobes to work in harmony at 5k to 7k to give the most power while only in vtec, right? Now once you have figured out the duration lift valve over lap etc for the vtec and exhaust lobe you still have the non vtec intake lobes. So here is what I was trying to explain. Is it possible to tweak the non vtec intake lobes so that they can work well with the already tweaked exhaust lobes? Now keep in mind yes the exhaust lobes have been tweaked to work best at 5k and beyond, but maybe by tweaking the non vtec lobe we can still at least keep, not gain, our low end power. Makes sense? Idk if that's possible, just a thought that entered my head yesterday.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Nvrdwn

Very doubtful.

I see what you're saying. Acura put extensive R&D into designing an optimal balance of high and low end performance on their cams. You can imagine how difficult that would be by not being able to modify or change the exhaust lobe profile yet still make it perform well all the way through. If it were to be modified (exhaust lobe) in respect to a VTEC intake lobe that was profiled for top end, you would undoubtably lose low end torque no matter what you did to the primary (non-VTEC) intake lobes. That's because you focused on matching the others for a higher rev range. This would basically redesigning Acura's cam for all around performance with emphasis on the top end and by that definition, you will sacrifice power somewhere.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

You do realize that the point of after market can shafts is to shift the power band either to the left or right. There is no perfect median where you can win them all.

bouncer07

Tuning can change vtec

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

not for his accord it can't. Nvrdwn has an accord. So no hondata

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

MS3?

NvrDwn

With the combination of solid(adjustable) and hydraulic it makes it nearly impossible to regrind. Not being completely familiar with the head and vtek operation I am very hesitant to regrind these cams. Welding would not be cost-effective either.

At this time we will have to pass on this job. Sorry and we hope you can find an after-market option soon for your application.

Ken
Delta Camshaft

bouncer07

If you want Billet steel cams and not regrinds, holla my way. On par with Drag Cartels, Skunk2, and Kelford cams in stage 2.

Atlas.46

Details? You can't just post something like that and no details. .. start a new thread with info

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

First how much, then how long the wait, and lastly what stages?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Wtf is a "vtek"?

And any camshaft "company" thats not up to date with any sort of variable valve timing systems should NOT be in the performance industry. Ive seen so many performance parts companys not being involved with imports at all or hardly at all that it frankly makes me wonder why they havent extended their products/services to a market that completely dominates domestic car sales and aftermarket performance parts industries in the US. Sorry, these people should wake up and realize what theyre missing as far as prospective buisiness is concerned here.

bouncer07

I owned an 8th civic before acquiring my TL and with the civic, I've went all motor. Stage 2 seems to be everyone's favorite as it produced the best power. Also trending that seems to be getting a lot of people are Drop In Cams...

If anyone is interested in trying out some Billet made cams that I believe has one of the best cams produced in the United States, I will need your cams being sent in, get it blue printed, and he'll send it back to you. Then he'll start on making it from scratch. I decided to turbo the TL and when I do, I'll be having him making me some Turbo cams.


Imagine having a set in your TL... with billet instead of regrinded iron cores.

bouncer07

Don't know why it doubled up on me.. :/

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

Custom billet cams would be taking this project to a whole new level price wise.

Which cams did you send into Delta, NvrDwn?

IntactACK

iTrader: (1)

I have an extra set laying around....

#camsAmakeherdance no #camsAmakemedance

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Why are we so concerned about Billet cams or anything else? Is it a question of durability?

Just as a point of discussion - if durability is the issue,

Honda cams are very strong from the factory and typically they have so much hardening that when you regrind them, they don't need to be re-hardened by Honda. Only in certain cases does a regrind on almost any Honda cam require a re-hardening from grinding away too much of the factory hardened material.

I've talked with my shop many times about this and they have repeatedly told me they've never had a Honda cam regrind break and can tell you why. Anyone who wants to inquire is free to call King Motorsports. Just tell them you're curious about Jordan's regrind on his TL-S.

bouncer07

Breaking the camshaft is not the problem here, it's the motor with finger follower valvtrains that have trouble maintaining valtrain geometry with regrinds. The reason why a regrind will not measure truly is that since the base circle of the cam is now smaller, the contact of the cam is now smaller, the contact patch of the cam follower is now contacting the lobe in a different place for where it was designed to contact, which throws off the rocker ratio and makes the valve move slightly out of sync with the lobe of the cam.
That is why a billet camshaft is better IMO, if there's a demand for it. But since there isn't, regrinds are the way to go.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Ok that's what i was looking for - I've seen some people have concerns about regrinds before in terms of durability and wanted to make sure we're on the same page about OEM honda cams.

Everything you've noted here I would agree with, then.

Atlas.46

So wait you have regrinds in your TL???? I have the 3.5 TL-S cams and springs in my accord now... but have a set of j30a4/5 cams sitting in a box waiting for a regrind. hmm...

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

This is 100% true and I agree.

This is why the earlier model j-series valvetrain (namely the rockers) makes them ideal candidates for running on a regrind. They are heavier but they will handle the stress of the cam much easier than later engines. The j32a2 has some of the strongest rockers yet. Acura focuses so much on weight savings but this hinders the rockers in this regard due to using a less rigid design. Those who want to run big lift I'd strongly suggest the earlier rockers.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Robert, will the rockers of a J32A3 be fine with a stage 2 regrind?

I know some people have gone more aggressive and am guessing that if you go more aggressive than stage 2 and rev up higher, you will need rockers from the J32A2....my assumption correct?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Actually, the a2 and a3 share the same rocker setup. I was referring to the j35a8's and beyond. That's the only ones Ive heard about rocker arms breaking on...particularly the j35/7z engines...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

but just in the post above mine, you mentioned the J32A2 has the strongest rockers....so am guessing they J32A3 is covered as well in that?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Yes. I was directing that statement more at the j35a8 crowd. My bad.

IntactACK

iTrader: (1)

Good to know, I will have some pre tune dyno numbers soon, if all goes planned.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Well, more delays in my cams, which has resulted in some very important information.

So I ordered a fresh set of Type-S cams (2007) from DelRay. Had them sent to Hondata so that they could measure the stock cam profile for type-s. Turns out, while my packing slip included the right part numbers for front/rear cams, the front cam was actually an RL cam.

So I said ok and I went ahead and just sent the stock front cam out of my type-s in to Webcams and away we go.

Well, the cams came back yesterday and the clearances on the front cam regrind (from my car originally) were perfect and the centerline was right where it should have been. The rear cam (the brand new one I had ordered from Honda) was way off.

Like, the lobe separation was not even close. As in the intake valves opened at the same time (102 on the intake side for both front and rear cams which is perfect), but the exhaust side was totally jacked. It was 108 for the exhaust side in front (my OEM cam) which is legit, but the rear cam was 130 on the exhaust side - so basically the equivalent of about +27 degree advance on when the rear exhaust valves open.

Fuck my life.

Upon further inspection, the part # for the cams were totally right for an 07 type-s (so it wasn't me who fucked up), however, Honda at some point changed the profile between what came in my Type-S brand new, and what they are now selling as replacement parts. This was verified against a 2007 Honda parts catalog, compared to the current 2013 catalog. Part numbers still matched between the catalogs, BUT the kicker is that there was a bigass letter "D" stamped on my OEM cams, and the brand new cams from Honda are stamped with a bigass letter "E"

So basically I'm sending my original rear cam in now to WEbcams (overnighting it) and will just use that for my rear cam.

Because DelRay sent me a RL cam for the front in the first place which was wrong, I'm gonna try and get them to just swap it out and send me another brand new Type-S cam (the one with the "E" stamp) so that I can have it measured and figure out where the differences are between that and what originally came in our Type-S cars.

So the bottom line is if you are getting type-s cams, make sure that you are getting either (a) 2 cams from the same type-s, or (B) both cams are brand new from Delray, because even though the part number is the same, the profile is different between what Honda is now selling and what originally came in the car.

I cannot confirm for 2008 Type-S, by the way. My cams stamped "D" were from my 2007.

The odyssey continues. My heads will be milled next week though, so that's neat.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

damn man....but am glad you figured everything out....

eager to see the cams back....also post specs on lift/duration when you get them in, I bet a lot of us will be eager to see that....

in for dyno

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yep the devil is in the details. I could have just sent both my stock type-s cams in and would be fine, but i wanted a head start on everything so I bought a spare set from honda to get the ball rolling - never woulda known otherwise.

i'll be posting everything once i have all the charts and numbers. stock flow charts, ported flow charts for both j35 and j32, rocker ratios, stock profile, custom profile, dynos, everything.

350 whp or bust.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

true that....350whp or bust

and you are 6speed so your tranny can hold a lot more power....so if later you plan on going with a SC and meth injection

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

lolol

but then i would no longer be naturally aspirated!