Andy has custom cams, bisi designed them for him. I believe they only offer a stage two and Gerzand has custom cams from bisi, don't qoute me though. Andy verified valve to valve clearance, piston to valve clearance etc. and told me there is all sorts of room to work with cams with nothing to worry about.

Now when I was installing my cams, I contacted bisi as we throw comments back and forth, he gave me incorrect valve lash measurements and adjustments. I knew they were wrong and asked him twice more and he continued to stick with his word as it was on a public site haha.


OH feel free to follow me on IG!

 

http://www.markedmotorsports.com/hon...-j37-p-63.html

You kinda embarassed BISIMOTO. Bet he'll respond back saying that he was working long hours or that it was his intern or some excuse. Trusting some of these guys are 90%, that other 10% you'll have to really dig up the OEM specs.

Those specs would have made your engine noisy or have idle issues and premature wear on valve train components. Bisimoto would have denied it...

 

one new rear Type-S cam from DelRay with the "E" stamping measured +20 after the regrind.

then the used rear Type-S cam pulled from my car with the "D" stamping measured +22 after regrind.

both cams were degreed prior to regrind as well, which only showed minor lobe separation from the factory.

King Motorsports is doing the degreeing. I would not doubt their measurement.

 

I know Andy has custom cams.

I verified valve to vale clearance and piston to valve clearance as well - clearance isn't the issue here. I have a more aggressive spec than Andy even and I still have clearance.

Even if clearance as an issue, there is room for valve sink in the head to accommodate.

Again the clearance is a non-issue. The problem is the actual centerline of the cam lobe after the regrind - at TDC the degree is way advanced from where it should be.

 

Trust me, Bisi does amazing work, I know he is a very busy guy and I take it in to account, but realistically what if I installed them with those specs....It doesn't bother me one bit and I wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again, but I was following up with the previous comment of a fellow member when Bisi replied to him about not knowing information about the cams. Bisi is a business man, I think very highly of him and didn't mean to embarress or disrespect him in any manner. I think they have amazing customer service and like I said I wouldn't hesitate to do business with him and I plan to in the near future.

 

This was on my page, I highly respect him or whoever monitors his page for taking the time to follow me and comment on my progress, he has gone above and beyond with information and assisting me with questions and answers. The guy who helped me install my cams is a mad scientist with cars and an engineer who has built some serious cars....off topic but he now has an rx7 that was twin turbo rotary and converted it over to an ls3 motor pushing 585 NA whp and same torque numbers. Full custom build all by him! END RANT

 

You're entitled to your opinion, and there seems to be a lot of people on the INtarwebz who have a love/hate relationship with Bisi - there doesn't seem to be any middle ground there.

I personally don't hold much of an opinion either way, because I haven't worked with him much.

But in all honesty how do you know he does amazing work? You talk like you're a regular reoccurring customer of his. Are you just speaking in regards to your Stage 2 cams? Because he doesn't actually do anything - all he does is send it through Webcams who does all the actual work of regrinding. He's just providing specs, which the results of have never been degree'd in. For better or for worse, i'm just saying he isn't really doing much for you if all you're doing is purchasing a regrind package that isn't customized.

 

From personal experience, several friends experiences, research and the internet, he's had many features in magazines and was labeled as having the best camshafts for honda based motors. I think he's had several astounding accomplishments.

If your referring to him himself I cannot attest to that, but his business is obviously successful and his r and r is clearly better than most, just look at this thread, people are struggling to get anyone to do any work with them and be successful.

 

Where is spades, he had his entire head built by bisi

 

damn....

ILC, hit up Andy, I think he might know since he has custom Bisi Cams...

 

lol

is no one reading and comprehending ILC?

 

^I am. Lol

Doesn't matter who has what as ILC brought something to light that hadn't been yet...apparently.

 

I'm not here to talk about Bisi's accomplishments - I know he has many. Remember that we're talking specifically about the TL. He doesn't make cams for the TL. He outsources regrinds. It's not like he's in his shop doing custom billet cams for our cars. "Best Honda cams" is irrelevant to the discussion of the TL. Let's be real here.

So along those lines - staying in focus on the TL - do you actually know what you are running for that cam you got? Did you degree both of them in the head after you got it back? You are one of the few other people who have gotten a cam regrind that are active on the forums, so if you have any info on degreeing the cams before/after your regrind, please share it - I'm just trying to get information (which we sorely lack because whether you want to agree or not, Bisimoto hasn't done shit to validate the power gains from a TL regrind). If we can show that the regrinds cause too much advance in the rear cam intake valves, then we have better info for future people building J motors, and we can see there is more value in a full-out custom cam (not a regrind), because with a custom cam we can set our own centerline wherever we want it.

I've also been very forthcoming with all information I have and continue to get. I've spent a lot of money to have arguably the most reputable Honda shop in the world (KMS) get real hard numbers and information. Partly because I want to make sure that I get the most power possible out of my build, but also partly because I'm trying to enrich the information we have in the community here. There's a shitload of hearsay on these forums when it comes to J-series building (mainly because it hasn't been done much), and armchair forum warriors with no real money to actually do anything that just spout 2nd hand info all day and treat it as gospel, thinking they're experts on the subject because they "heard it from someone else".

We know Bisi's specs work in the car - my custom specs will technically "work" in the car. Andy's specs work. Lots of specs technically "work". I could button up the car right now, tune it, and drive just fine. But are we getting the most out of it? The thing I'm trying to get to the bottom of, for the betterment of the J-series community (i could give 2 shits less about bisi), is to determine if regrinding a type-s cam leaves power gains on the table because of where the centerline ends up after the regrind due to lobe separation from the factory

Let's make sure we stay on track with that.

 

haha i didnt see the thread has moved to the new page LOL


go on...

 

Ugh, sorry to hear that ILC. I guess nothing is as easy as it seems, unfortunately. There are setbacks in every project, but this one was unexpected (aren't they all)? Not only is it a setback in the project though; you don't have a car. I'm sure this is really frustrating for you and I hope it all turns out ok!

I do have a question though.....I'm a little confused about cam 'degreeing.' How will that leave power on the table?

 

I thought it was a reliability thing and not a power making one.

 

Hey ILC I'm not trying to argue with you buddy, I bought my cams from Andy and checked all the clearances before installing and ensured I wouldn't have any mechanical issues, I'm currently awaiting my ms3 so I can tune and see whats going on, and I will be heading to do some dyno runs, I can dyno my car free at my local school so hopefully I can help, I regret not dynoing before and aftewards.

I have an extra set of CAMS lying around I would be willing to "donate" if you can put them to use.

 

I'll have to compete the guys with regrinds vs my billet made cams. I'm sure to make more power and my vtec will be lower than OEM regrinds. But I need FP to me suiteable yet.

 

ILC I have stock J30a4/5 cams, if you want them and think they will yield any difference let me know. I'll give you a damn good deal on them.

 

degreeing isn't a physical change - it's how you measure the intake and exhaust valve timing as the engine rotates.

my rant post may have been misleading - I was moreso just frustrated that neither of the main shops involved in TL regrinds (Web and Bisi) know anything about the resulting valve timing after the cams are reground. I could still run the cam, it just won't be 100% right.


i know man. I'll keep it in mind. Are they base TL cams I assume?

 

Keep fighting the good fight.
you're an innovator that wants to do things the right way, instead of half assing things.

 

based on what I'm learning, I would say you are 100% sure to make more power with a billet-made cam.

 

I'm just happy we have people like you who lead the way. Edit: And who also makes complete and solid posts.

That way I can swoop in next summer, buy exactly what I need, and not have to go through all the headaches... LOL

<3

 

Who makes these billet cams for our cars anyways? Once I get my JnR kit on, I will be looking into having a turbo cam made for the car or have one reground but havent done much research in that field yet simply because im just not there in my build progress.

Thanks for the valuable info ILC, all this light shed is definitely awesome and helps those of us who plan to do what you are doing now that much easier (and cheaper) haha.

 

Tbmotorworx and DDTech both advertise j series cams. But not sure if either have made a set and some testing.

<- DDTech dealer

 

Okay stupid question, are used cams okay to used? Some of my mechanics friend say its okay as long as there is no significant wear. Other say hell no and buy new.
Price different is like 150-200 bucks.

 

I had a set of New Type S Cams reground by Bisimoto. They were reground specifically for my build. I didn't assemble the engine so I can't speak about clearances. But I have been driving on them for over 3000 miles without any issues. That was on 3.2 base ECU, then 3.5 ECU, now 3.5 ECU with Hondata. Here is my cam spec sheet.

 

You know what would quickly fix the problem (other than the regrind being correctly) that you're experiencing?

Adjustable cam gears.

Most adjustable cam gears are able to work within a range of 20 degrees. That would be 10 degrees advanced and then 10 degrees retard. Like this:

-10 llll -5 llll 0 llll +5 llll +10

If you could have the stock cam gears (or custom ones) machines in such a manner where they are just on a wider range, you could make corrections for this problem and then be totally done with the problem. You would however need to make enough room for correction of this problem and then add another 10 degrees on top of that to have room for adjustments. OR, design them in such a way it takes the advancement out without actually defining this on the cam gear. Here's what I mean:

Example 1
-30 llll -25 llll -20 lllll -15 lllll -10

Because the cam gear would be preset to -20 (and -22 on the other) you would literally set it in 20 degrees retarded and still have the ability to adjust the timing both ways 10 degrees.

Example 2
-10 llll -5 llll 0 llll +5 llll +10 (standard markings)

Again, because the cam is advanced by error at 20 degrees on the camshaft itself, just set the gear in such a manner where even though it reads 0 degrees, its already been corrected by the gear clocking itself but still enables you to advance/retard with no mistake or accidental forgetfulness of how much of an adjustment was made because it was made from the baseline 0.

 

When do your exhaust valves open and close?

 

Little off topic but just so everyone knows I passed my inspection yesterday. Originally I thought it was going to be an issue because if I idle for a minute or so the factory ecu thinks its misfiring(lopey idle). I put seventy miles on with no codes or cel. I'm catless with stage two cams. Woo hoo

 

So last night was a big night. Looks like my final bill for everything will be around $10k, joy of joys!

I spent 2 hours at King in the shop on the phone with Webcams, talking to Lori who has been very nice through this whole ordeal.

All day yesterday, King took both the front and rear cams (and remember the rear one is where we said the valve timing was off), and they hand measured everything on a full rotation of the crank. At every 10 degrees of rotation, they plotted out the lift and we were able to create charts of where the intake and exhaust opened and closed between both cams.

The results are pretty telling and show that for all intents and purposes, the rear cam regrind looks backwards.

It's worth nothing that (at least for Type-S, don't know about base TL), that the rockers are reversed from the front head to the rear head, which appears that Honda did it that way for mechanical reasons.

Webcams agreed that the regrind is backwards but can't make sense of any of it - they said they've never seen anything like it, but this is how they have always reground TL cams. She had a set of TL cam cores in her hands and was seeing the same things we saw - basically that even if you flipped around the rear cam and tried to regrind it that way - you'd never get anywhere because when you do that, there isn't enough meat to do anything with the lobes.

Not to mention looking at the geometry, flipping it around for the regrind and putting it back in the car, you'd end up with the cam stuffing itself against the roller on the rear head, instead of spinning with it.

To keep a long story short, Webcams is comping everything for this cam ordeal on their dollar. They said this is how it's always been, they have never changed how they regrind TL cams, and that it would be a symptom of all the grinds they've ever done for the TL, basically.

Bottom line is if you worked with Webcams directly, or you have Bisimoto cams, then if you were to actually degree the cams, you would see incorrect valve timing.

This is big news IMO and it makes a very strong case for looking to using a custom billet cam if you want to maximize power. The regrinds from Web are totally driveable and will make additional power over stock because the cam is bigger after the regrind, but you'll never ever make as much horsepower as you would with proper centerlines.

So my car is going back together, should be tuned on Monday or Tuesday, and I will just hope that I'm putting down at least 330 whp.

Here are the charts of the measured valve timing of the front cam vs. the rear cam:

Exhaust:



Intake:



and for posterity, my car eagerly awaiting parts:

 

Amazing. Lol

 

Congrats buddy glad to see a little closer for you! Thanks for all the valuable information, 10k! Hope your happy with her when shes purrrrring.

 

yeah man counting down the days now, lol.

It's worth noting that the $10k price tag includes the fact that I had to replace one of my heads entirely because I stripped the threading when I blew a spark plug out back in early June. So that right there is like, $1400 of the cost.

I'm also including 105k service parts.

Obviously web comping a bunch of the cost for me helps, but I still have some labor for King into measuring a lot of shit with these cams. So that's probably an extra thousand bucks.

I originally budgeted like 6k prior to blowing out a plug from my head, so if that hadn't have happened, I wasn't too far off the mark. Probably would have been about 7k total if there wasn't so much bullshit with the cams and the head didn't blow.

Just keeping fingers crossed that the power gains meet my expectations, lol.

 

So through your trials and tribulations, you have found that all J series regrinds are basically wrong? Is this something that could potentially only be for the Type S? I doubt it, considering I don't believe the rockers changed between the Base and Type S models.

I feel for ya, bud. To be honest, I still think you will be over 330whp. I know the cams aren't what you wanted, but just the ported heads and bump in compression alone with a good tune should net you another 30whp IMO, not including additional (although not ideal) lift from the cams. I still think you will see 34x.

 

Why can't we all live closer to each other so we could all meet up and bullshit and turn wrenches and occasionally have a few brewskies!? I might not sound like the smartest egg in the acurazine world but I'm actually a damn good mechanic. I just am not good at putting the words to the keyboard lol.

I hope your build exceeds your expectations so you can continue to build her bud! Report back asap!

Seems like this thread took a turn for the fun!

 

^ I'm driving up to Lake George this afternoon, so I will probably pass your area. I will be coming back down earlyyy Sunday morning as well, so I probably won't have time to meet up....so not really sure why this is worth mentioning, but oh well lmao.

 

I'm suprised you've did extended research. I know you and I are on the same path. I've known a bit more info related to our engine and it's vtec engagment but will let it slowly leak as the public gets up to speed with knowing these little breakthroughs.

 

^cool post bro

 

I don't want to speak for J32 regrinds - all I can speak to is Type-S because that's what I've actually got hard, factual data for.