Custom Bisimoto Cams
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maharajamd (07-19-2013)
07-19-2013 | 02:22 PM
#364
Good lord the front type-s cam is expensive! Almost as much as both base cams combined! Lol
What was the most aggressive stock cam to go with? The RLs?
Interesting both the RL cams are as much as the type-s front. I assume for the same reason. What's special about them... Lol
What was the most aggressive stock cam to go with? The RLs?
Interesting both the RL cams are as much as the type-s front. I assume for the same reason. What's special about them... Lol
Last edited by maharajamd; 07-19-2013 at 02:25 PM.
07-19-2013 | 02:26 PM
#365
i've got Andy's old decked j32a3 heads which are ported to flow the same as type-s heads, so I'm hoping I can sell those to someone for 1500-1750 considering a brand new set of type-s heads that flow the same cost about 3400.
some of the price differences between base/type-s parts are insane.
07-19-2013 | 02:33 PM
#366
Well a lot of parts are made of entirely different materials, correct?
A lot more magnesium to help with heat soak and weight?
Cams though... Lol. It's gotta be all about demand.
A lot more magnesium to help with heat soak and weight?
Cams though... Lol. It's gotta be all about demand.
Last edited by maharajamd; 07-19-2013 at 02:40 PM.
07-19-2013 | 03:08 PM
#367
All motor
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,530
Likes: 532
From: Long Island
^ Yes, but that's the intake manifold. The heads are not made from Magnesium...
ILC, ughhhhh.....this is just what we were talking about in our PMs. Hopefully the delay isn't too bad. Will be interesting to see the difference in the 'D' stamped Type S cams vs. 'E' stamped Type S cams, as well as the RL cams.
ILC, ughhhhh.....this is just what we were talking about in our PMs. Hopefully the delay isn't too bad. Will be interesting to see the difference in the 'D' stamped Type S cams vs. 'E' stamped Type S cams, as well as the RL cams.
Last edited by Sonnick; 07-19-2013 at 03:10 PM.
07-19-2013 | 03:09 PM
#368
head casting is not materially different between j35 and j32. I've had them both on the bench side by side.
07-20-2013 | 03:57 PM
#369
The reason the j35a8 heads are so much more expensive is because they were a special casting for improved flow/capacity in the coolant passages. They also measure slightly larger in the intake ports (anywhere from .5mm-1mm depending on the area that was measured) than a set of j32a3 heads I was comparing them to. Other than that, they are similar in design everywhere else. However, it's this new casting that created an enormous difference price between the j35a8 and the j32a3 heads. The j35a8 heads were only manufactured for the RL (05-08) and the TL-S (07-08). There weren't nearly as many RL/TL-S as there were base model TL's (04-08), Acura was forced to significantly raise their cost due to much lower manufacturing numbers but equally priced (to the base TL) manufacturing equipment. That's how any business would respond to prevent excessive loss.
This also holds true for the j37a4 ($3000!!!) heads as well as multiple other Hondas/Acuras where total sales of one specific part (or part number) were substantially lower than the price of its manufacturing equipment.
Basically, the cost-to-sales ratio affects the cost of parts.
This also holds true for the j37a4 ($3000!!!) heads as well as multiple other Hondas/Acuras where total sales of one specific part (or part number) were substantially lower than the price of its manufacturing equipment.
Basically, the cost-to-sales ratio affects the cost of parts.
07-28-2013 | 04:11 PM
#371
so, you need to figure out what you want to do.
raise compression, lower compression? F/I? N/A!?
its all dependent On you and how much you want to spend on your build
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artie06tl (07-28-2013)
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justnspace (07-28-2013)
07-28-2013 | 07:32 PM
#376
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Grand_hustle17 (07-28-2013),
i_love_cars (07-28-2013)
07-28-2013 | 08:07 PM
#377
07-28-2013 | 08:13 PM
#378
I have stage 2 cams, I'm not sure what I want to do in the future, I finally got my a/f gauge in the other day and my ms3 is on the way....we will see how much of an improvement I get after all this. I might run NOS or eventually build a "custom" turbo kit. I don't know horsepower numbers but my car keeps up with things it should definitely not. I beat a gto at the drag strip, a camaro rs with many many mods, beat an m3, keep up more than I should with my buddies supercharged m3. But back to the point, if I decide to go boost, bisi told me stage 2 cams would work. I may run a nos setup over the winter and if I blow my motor next summer I will just build it and lower compression a little and set it up for boost if I decide to go that route. Just do what makes you happy and experiment, do what you love, love what you do! People get way to serious about our cars, if you want a race car buy one lol.
07-28-2013 | 08:20 PM
#380
Well, more delays in my cams, which has resulted in some very important information.
So I ordered a fresh set of Type-S cams (2007) from DelRay. Had them sent to Hondata so that they could measure the stock cam profile for type-s. Turns out, while my packing slip included the right part numbers for front/rear cams, the front cam was actually an RL cam.
So I said ok and I went ahead and just sent the stock front cam out of my type-s in to Webcams and away we go.
Well, the cams came back yesterday and the clearances on the front cam regrind (from my car originally) were perfect and the centerline was right where it should have been. The rear cam (the brand new one I had ordered from Honda) was way off.
Like, the lobe separation was not even close. As in the intake valves opened at the same time (102 on the intake side for both front and rear cams which is perfect), but the exhaust side was totally jacked. It was 108 for the exhaust side in front (my OEM cam) which is legit, but the rear cam was 130 on the exhaust side - so basically the equivalent of about +27 degree advance on when the rear exhaust valves open.
Fuck my life.
Upon further inspection, the part # for the cams were totally right for an 07 type-s (so it wasn't me who fucked up), however, Honda at some point changed the profile between what came in my Type-S brand new, and what they are now selling as replacement parts. This was verified against a 2007 Honda parts catalog, compared to the current 2013 catalog. Part numbers still matched between the catalogs, BUT the kicker is that there was a bigass letter "D" stamped on my OEM cams, and the brand new cams from Honda are stamped with a bigass letter "E"
So basically I'm sending my original rear cam in now to WEbcams (overnighting it) and will just use that for my rear cam.
Because DelRay sent me a RL cam for the front in the first place which was wrong, I'm gonna try and get them to just swap it out and send me another brand new Type-S cam (the one with the "E" stamp) so that I can have it measured and figure out where the differences are between that and what originally came in our Type-S cars.
So the bottom line is if you are getting type-s cams, make sure that you are getting either (a) 2 cams from the same type-s, or (B) both cams are brand new from Delray, because even though the part number is the same, the profile is different between what Honda is now selling and what originally came in the car.
I cannot confirm for 2008 Type-S, by the way. My cams stamped "D" were from my 2007.
The odyssey continues. My heads will be milled next week though, so that's neat.
So I ordered a fresh set of Type-S cams (2007) from DelRay. Had them sent to Hondata so that they could measure the stock cam profile for type-s. Turns out, while my packing slip included the right part numbers for front/rear cams, the front cam was actually an RL cam.
So I said ok and I went ahead and just sent the stock front cam out of my type-s in to Webcams and away we go.
Well, the cams came back yesterday and the clearances on the front cam regrind (from my car originally) were perfect and the centerline was right where it should have been. The rear cam (the brand new one I had ordered from Honda) was way off.
Like, the lobe separation was not even close. As in the intake valves opened at the same time (102 on the intake side for both front and rear cams which is perfect), but the exhaust side was totally jacked. It was 108 for the exhaust side in front (my OEM cam) which is legit, but the rear cam was 130 on the exhaust side - so basically the equivalent of about +27 degree advance on when the rear exhaust valves open.
Fuck my life.
Upon further inspection, the part # for the cams were totally right for an 07 type-s (so it wasn't me who fucked up), however, Honda at some point changed the profile between what came in my Type-S brand new, and what they are now selling as replacement parts. This was verified against a 2007 Honda parts catalog, compared to the current 2013 catalog. Part numbers still matched between the catalogs, BUT the kicker is that there was a bigass letter "D" stamped on my OEM cams, and the brand new cams from Honda are stamped with a bigass letter "E"
So basically I'm sending my original rear cam in now to WEbcams (overnighting it) and will just use that for my rear cam.
Because DelRay sent me a RL cam for the front in the first place which was wrong, I'm gonna try and get them to just swap it out and send me another brand new Type-S cam (the one with the "E" stamp) so that I can have it measured and figure out where the differences are between that and what originally came in our Type-S cars.
So the bottom line is if you are getting type-s cams, make sure that you are getting either (a) 2 cams from the same type-s, or (B) both cams are brand new from Delray, because even though the part number is the same, the profile is different between what Honda is now selling and what originally came in the car.
I cannot confirm for 2008 Type-S, by the way. My cams stamped "D" were from my 2007.
The odyssey continues. My heads will be milled next week though, so that's neat.
It turns out that from the factory, Honda has some differences in lobe separation - it doesn't appear to be an issue with the new cams, but rather by design.
However, the regrind made the separation more pronounced. My OEM rear cam was degree'd in and while there was some separation, it wasn't as bad without the regrind.
SO, Webcams is overnighting everything and doing a regrind on my remaining rear OEM cam for free - it's expected that this one will come out roughly the same but 1 random unground type-s cam by itself won't do me any good anyway, so I figure let them regrind it.
That cam should be here tomorrow -
My heads are done and currently flowing 304 cfm, up from 273 stock at .450 lift - measured on a Super Flow 110, and 198 on the exhaust side up from 183 stock.
milled 40 thou off the heads to reach 12:1 compression exactly - like 12.00 lol. Can't physically go any farther because on the J35a8 there is a difference between middle cylinders and outer - piston clearance is as tight as it can be with 40 thou shaved off.
Car should be tuned this week.
New thread with build specs will be created of course. Don't want to hijack this one.
07-28-2013 | 08:24 PM
#381
I have stage 2 cams, I'm not sure what I want to do in the future, I finally got my a/f gauge in the other day and my ms3 is on the way....we will see how much of an improvement I get after all this. I might run NOS or eventually build a "custom" turbo kit. I don't know horsepower numbers but my car keeps up with things it should definitely not. I beat a gto at the drag strip, a camaro rs with many many mods, beat an m3, keep up more than I should with my buddies supercharged m3. But back to the point, if I decide to go boost, bisi told me stage 2 cams would work. I may run a nos setup over the winter and if I blow my motor next summer I will just build it and lower compression a little and set it up for boost if I decide to go that route. Just do what makes you happy and experiment, do what you love, love what you do! People get way to serious about our cars, if you want a race car buy one lol.
There's a lot of people that scratch their heads as to why I've taken my TL as far as I have, but it matters not!
07-28-2013 | 09:14 PM
#383
He obviously has the funds...and knows what he wants/expects/needs/
you should be extra nice to Artie.
he doesnt know what he's doing and has money to blow.
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JJH (07-29-2013)
07-28-2013 | 11:15 PM
#384
So what is the can profiles from the RL vs the type s since you spec them both? I am planning to buy some RL cams to drop in some PnP j30a5 heads for my accord.
Please share duration and lift if possible
Please share duration and lift if possible
07-29-2013 | 06:21 AM
#385
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 814
Likes: 95
... I think i know how to get there too lol.. or have n idea lol
07-29-2013 | 07:04 AM
#386
My build is being done right the first time, that's why I gave the car over to King Motorsports lol.
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justnspace (07-29-2013)
07-29-2013 | 08:36 AM
#387
The custom profile was based off of a handful of other Stage 3 grinds that Webcams has done for Type-S cams in the TL. I will be providing stock profile and custom profile along with why the decision was made to go with 1 profile over another.
Just keep an eye out in the performance section for my build thread which will detail everything - with luck I'll be getting everything together late this week or on the weekend.
07-29-2013 | 09:13 AM
#389
07-29-2013 | 09:16 AM
#390
350 is the target. The additions will be PnP'ed runners, 12:1 compression, Stage 3 cams, and monstrously ported heads and a 4" intake. I figure that's enough to get me to at least 340, which i would also be happy with.
07-29-2013 | 09:19 AM
#391
that's what I thought too. Seemed odd.
The measurements were physically done by Hondata, though. So when I post the actual specs, that's where they will come from.
Web just eyeballed it, lol.
The life of the cams was this: I bought them, sent them to Hondata for measurement, then Hondata sent them to Web, then we picked a profile.
The measurements were physically done by Hondata, though. So when I post the actual specs, that's where they will come from.
Web just eyeballed it, lol.
The life of the cams was this: I bought them, sent them to Hondata for measurement, then Hondata sent them to Web, then we picked a profile.
Last edited by i_love_cars; 07-29-2013 at 09:22 AM.
07-29-2013 | 09:57 AM
#393
that's what I thought too. Seemed odd.
The measurements were physically done by Hondata, though. So when I post the actual specs, that's where they will come from.
Web just eyeballed it, lol.
The life of the cams was this: I bought them, sent them to Hondata for measurement, then Hondata sent them to Web, then we picked a profile.
The measurements were physically done by Hondata, though. So when I post the actual specs, that's where they will come from.
Web just eyeballed it, lol.
The life of the cams was this: I bought them, sent them to Hondata for measurement, then Hondata sent them to Web, then we picked a profile.
Btw, the build sounds great. So you switched over to the type-s heads or kept Andy's? Sorry, that's a lot to go through above.
07-29-2013 | 10:44 AM
#396
yea just shy of 296 whp, but i also didn't have PnP'ed intake runners which i'm sure would have pushed me over the 300 mark if i had them at the time. Obviously they are part of this build project, though.
350 is the target. The additions will be PnP'ed runners, 12:1 compression, Stage 3 cams, and monstrously ported heads and a 4" intake. I figure that's enough to get me to at least 340, which i would also be happy with.
350 is the target. The additions will be PnP'ed runners, 12:1 compression, Stage 3 cams, and monstrously ported heads and a 4" intake. I figure that's enough to get me to at least 340, which i would also be happy with.
07-29-2013 | 11:02 AM
#397
I've measured them before myself, there's a difference without a doubt. Even the factory service manual specifies them with different specs. If they're getting the same measurements, somebody made a mistake when ordering them. They both have the same part number and someone probably assumed that they were the same cams. Sort of like the 2nd gen TL-S and CL-S cams thing. Same part number but there's a difference.
Btw, the build sounds great. So you switched over to the type-s heads or kept Andy's? Sorry, that's a lot to go through above.
Btw, the build sounds great. So you switched over to the type-s heads or kept Andy's? Sorry, that's a lot to go through above.
I ordered the cams in the first place and my order was for a FR and RR cam for the 2007 Type-S. I have the order slip. No mistake made on my part.
But what are you saying about part #'s being the same? Are you saying between the RL and Type-S? Those are different part numbers. I just went to acuraoemparts and checked P/N's on 05-07 RL, and 2007 Type-S. The Type-S cam part numbers are 14100-RDB-A00 and 14200-RDB-A00, while the RL cam part numbers are 14100-RJA-J00 and 14200-RJA-J00
In regards to Andy's j32 heads, I am going to sell them on the black market at a drastically discounted rate. Andy was unfortunately sold a shitload of snake oil by the shop that did his j32 heads - they weren't making 13.5:1 compression and they weren't milled 60 thou like they told him. They were milled 20 thou and were making 11.5:1 - the valve job wasn't that great either. Running your finger across the seat of the valve you could tell right away.
They also said the j32 heads prior to porting flowed 283 cfm on the intake side, and 318 after porting - when I had them flow benched they were only flowing 275 (so that's after porting), which is within 1 cfm of what the stock j35a8 heads flowed (~274). Now different flow benches use different calibrations but I've never heard of a 40 cfm difference when measuring on one bench to another. It makes a lot more sense that with porting, they flow as well as the j35 heads do in stock form.
This also supports the fact that Andy's car was only making 318 whp (325 with his down pipe). The heads just weren't producing much. almost all his gains north of 300 whp were from his cam profile.
So I am just gonna sell those heads because they're ported and have an extra 1/2 point of compression, which would be useful for someone with a base TL that doesn't want to go crazy balls to the wall on their car. But I paid like 2500 for them and will probably now have to sell for half that, which is disappointing.
Last edited by i_love_cars; 07-29-2013 at 11:09 AM.
07-29-2013 | 11:06 AM
#398
yeah. I carpool with a coworker, and failing that I have a Coach bus stop 1/2 mile from my place that drops me off right in front of my work downtown, so normally the TL is my daily but I can afford to do this to it because I have other options.
07-29-2013 | 11:31 AM
#399
I would like to compare your measurements with theirs then, as well. I will PM you here at some point.
I ordered the cams in the first place and my order was for a FR and RR cam for the 2007 Type-S. I have the order slip. No mistake made on my part.
But what are you saying about part #'s being the same? Are you saying between the RL and Type-S? Those are different part numbers. I just went to acuraoemparts and checked P/N's on 05-07 RL, and 2007 Type-S. The Type-S cam part numbers are 14100-RDB-A00 and 14200-RDB-A00, while the RL cam part numbers are 14100-RJA-J00 and 14200-RJA-J00
In regards to Andy's j32 heads, I am going to sell them on the black market at a drastically discounted rate. Andy was unfortunately sold a shitload of snake oil by the shop that did his j32 heads - they weren't making 13.5:1 compression and they weren't milled 60 thou like they told him. They were milled 20 thou and were making 11.5:1 - the valve job wasn't that great either. Running your finger across the seat of the valve you could tell right away.
They also said the j32 heads prior to porting flowed 283 cfm on the intake side, and 318 after porting - when I had them flow benched they were only flowing 275 (so that's after porting), which is within 1 cfm of what the stock j35a8 heads flowed (~274). Now different flow benches use different calibrations but I've never heard of a 40 cfm difference when measuring on one bench to another. It makes a lot more sense that with porting, they flow as well as the j35 heads do in stock form.
This also supports the fact that Andy's car was only making 318 whp (325 with his down pipe). The heads just weren't producing much. almost all his gains north of 300 whp were from his cam profile.
So I am just gonna sell those heads because they're ported and have an extra 1/2 point of compression, which would be useful for someone with a base TL that doesn't want to go crazy balls to the wall on their car. But I paid like 2500 for them and will probably now have to sell for half that, which is disappointing.
I ordered the cams in the first place and my order was for a FR and RR cam for the 2007 Type-S. I have the order slip. No mistake made on my part.
But what are you saying about part #'s being the same? Are you saying between the RL and Type-S? Those are different part numbers. I just went to acuraoemparts and checked P/N's on 05-07 RL, and 2007 Type-S. The Type-S cam part numbers are 14100-RDB-A00 and 14200-RDB-A00, while the RL cam part numbers are 14100-RJA-J00 and 14200-RJA-J00
In regards to Andy's j32 heads, I am going to sell them on the black market at a drastically discounted rate. Andy was unfortunately sold a shitload of snake oil by the shop that did his j32 heads - they weren't making 13.5:1 compression and they weren't milled 60 thou like they told him. They were milled 20 thou and were making 11.5:1 - the valve job wasn't that great either. Running your finger across the seat of the valve you could tell right away.
They also said the j32 heads prior to porting flowed 283 cfm on the intake side, and 318 after porting - when I had them flow benched they were only flowing 275 (so that's after porting), which is within 1 cfm of what the stock j35a8 heads flowed (~274). Now different flow benches use different calibrations but I've never heard of a 40 cfm difference when measuring on one bench to another. It makes a lot more sense that with porting, they flow as well as the j35 heads do in stock form.
This also supports the fact that Andy's car was only making 318 whp (325 with his down pipe). The heads just weren't producing much. almost all his gains north of 300 whp were from his cam profile.
So I am just gonna sell those heads because they're ported and have an extra 1/2 point of compression, which would be useful for someone with a base TL that doesn't want to go crazy balls to the wall on their car. But I paid like 2500 for them and will probably now have to sell for half that, which is disappointing.
Here's the specs on the cams:
TL-S
P-35.112
M-36.394
S- 35.112
E- 36.389
RL
P- 35.284
M- 36.445
S- 35.284
E- 36.389
Heard the story from Andy about the heads being bunk. That's crazy. Both of you guys spent a lot of money on them and I know how it feels to not get what you paid for.
And FYI, the j37a1 heads flow much better than the j35a8 heads and provide an immediate 15hp jump in power by themselves with nothing else changed. If you get real ballsy (as I'm about to be), you can swap a j-series "z" head onto a 1st or 2nd gen motor and have access to some more power...especially when retrofitting some j37a4 heads into place.
Here's some I picked up recently...
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i_love_cars (07-29-2013)
07-29-2013 | 12:05 PM
#400
My bad, it's the heads that shared the same part numbers. You are correct.
Here's the specs on the cams:
TL-S
P-35.112
M-36.394
S- 35.112
E- 36.389
RL
P- 35.284
M- 36.445
S- 35.284
E- 36.389
Heard the story from Andy about the heads being bunk. That's crazy. Both of you guys spent a lot of money on them and I know how it feels to not get what you paid for.
And FYI, the j37a1 heads flow much better than the j35a8 heads and provide an immediate 15hp jump in power by themselves with nothing else changed. If you get real ballsy (as I'm about to be), you can swap a j-series "z" head onto a 1st or 2nd gen motor and have access to some more power...especially when retrofitting some j37a4 heads into place.
Here's the specs on the cams:
TL-S
P-35.112
M-36.394
S- 35.112
E- 36.389
RL
P- 35.284
M- 36.445
S- 35.284
E- 36.389
Heard the story from Andy about the heads being bunk. That's crazy. Both of you guys spent a lot of money on them and I know how it feels to not get what you paid for.
And FYI, the j37a1 heads flow much better than the j35a8 heads and provide an immediate 15hp jump in power by themselves with nothing else changed. If you get real ballsy (as I'm about to be), you can swap a j-series "z" head onto a 1st or 2nd gen motor and have access to some more power...especially when retrofitting some j37a4 heads into place.
and yeah it sucks about Andy's heads but it is what it is - sadly there's a lot of shops out there that just aren't very well-known, some that just aren't very good, and some that intentionally try to screw people. We will never know for sure about the shop Andy used, but like I told him - I'm not super upset about it because it's part of the game and I knew there was some risk going into it. Sadly the J series isn't a science yet in the machining world - tons of owners in the community such as yourself have played around with swapping heads, blocks, etc. but we just don't have an established base yet of people who have had decking and porting done. There are costs and potential losses involved in that exploration.
Sonnick was telling me you guys were discussing the j37 and his plans to slap some heads on his accord. Sounds pretty awesome, really. If I hit 350 I probably will be done with the TL, but if I come up short, I may look at doing a j37 swap next season because from what I heard you can buy those heads for really cheap to begin with.