Does anyone knows what this means??? I read about it on TOV when they were dynoing the 5AT and they were able to get the car to rev higher before it "pulled the timing out" by allowing it to cool and by running the heater to remove more heat from the engine.
Anyway, last night I got in acceleration contest with a 330ci convertable, TWICE, from a stoplight. I got stopped next to them at the light and the guy in the passenger seat was looking over at me all smug like he thought his buddy's beamer was the sh$%. The first time we took off, I didn't totally stomp it, not sure if he was going to take the bait and when I realized we were racing, I floored it and was able to catch up to him and pass him by the time we reached 70 mph, which is when I had to start braking due to the next stop light. At the next light, his buddy wasn't looking so smug anymore. I gave him the old head knodd and then looked up at the light and he shook his head in affirmative. That is when I switched the VSA off, and turned the heater on full blast. When the light changed, he pulled me slightly off the line but then I overtook him quickly and my TL seemed to upshift later to 2nd this time. This time I let off at 80 mph because he was already at least 2 to 3 car lengths behind me. I immediately braked to 45 mph and he kept going, I guess too embarrassed to slow down.

 

Haha!!! Nice kill. Way to show those smug Bimmer owners.

 

Immediately when I got home I went to the BMW website and saw that the manual 330ci Convertable only does 0-60 in 6.9 seconds and the auto is even worse at 7.5, so then I didn't feel like such a badass for beating him. I seriously thought the 330ci was faster than that.

 

when you turn the heater to full blast the cooling fans up front do not turn on, therefore less parasitic loss. meaning the engine won't have to waste any power on the fans.

 

Good to know.

Swat Dude, it's still nice to stick it to those uppity BMW owners, even if they have a seriously slow car.

 

Amen, brother!

 

Pulling timing out means reducing the amount of timing advance before top dead center (BTDC) when the plug fires in relation to piston (crank) location. Firing BTDC, the plug actually fires before the piston reaches the top. The degrees BTDC is the amont of "advance" in degrees the location of the piston is, actually measuring in degrees where crank is compared to it's location when the crank is centered with the piston bore (aka crank top dead center; putting the piston in the highest location) when the plug fires. Reducing timing advance is done to control preignition, however it also cuts into HP. The higher the revs, the more advnace the computer will apply to the timing.

"....they were dynoing the 5AT and they were able to get the car to rev higher before it "pulled the timing out" by allowing it to cool and by running the heater to remove more heat from the engine." doesn't make ANY sense.

The rev limits are hard set by the ECU and cooling or anything else doesn't change it, especially changing the timing. The rev limits there there to keep the motor from coming apart, not to control preignition or any other condition. The ECU also controls timing advance and will reduce the amount of advance if the "knock sensors" detect preignition.

The only thing I can think of when they would say that is that they were able to let the ECU put more advance on the timing because they were able to control preigition by helping it run cooler. But I'm not sure if you can manually set the advance on the TL. But even then a few more degrees of advance isn't going to do much. It depends on how much more they were able to get.

 

That doesn't make any sense.

By turning the heater on full blast, you turn the blower on full - which adds quite a bit to the load on the alternator - and therefore your engine. And, if your coolant temp rises enough your front fans will still come on.

 

I always heard it referred to as retarding the timing. Never heard "pulling timing out" before.

 

It's the same thing. Most people day retarding the timing, but retarding the timing often refers to initial timing compared to stock. So at idle say a car is supposed to have 10 deg of initial timing advance, you can retard the timing to 7 if you have pinging problems or want to run "cheaper" gas. As revs go up, so does the amount of advance. Sometimes you can "pull out" timing from full advance should you need to for other reasons.

So while they are similar, people I talk to call pulling timing out of initial advance they call retarding timing, when they pull it out of "full" advance they call it pulling out timing.

 

This is true. The power has to come from somewhere...whether it's the cooling fans, or heater blowers, it's all coming from the battery and thus the alternator.

 

Timing (when the spark is delivered to the cylinder) is advanced as the engine speeds up. Retarding timing is a technique to respond to some condition, such as detonation.

I'm speculating, but in this case it seems that this is an ECU function that starts retarding timing at high rpms based on variables including temperature. This is occurring before the fuel cutoff (max RPM). TOV found that dropping coolant temp to 180 prevented this. I wonder if this was a function of the car being on the dyno and running hot - common because the car is not moving. I wonder if pulling timing out was a response to the coolant temp or some other effect caused by the higher temperature at high RPM's. Hmmm...

In the case you described, running the engine with the heater on should not reduce engine coolant temps below where the thermostat is set. The engine would have to be off for this to work.

 

Actual quote from TOV: "The 6MT was also pulling timing out above 6200 rpms. We saw the same thing on the first few runs with the 5AT car, but were able to cool the car sufficiently for the last few runs, and it delayed the timing cut and resulted in a few extra horsepower."

 

I'm going to try hard not to sound like 1le in my response but drag racing is something I've been doing for 25 years. Turning the heater on right before the race will not pull out enough heat to help any, in fact the blowers will offset any kind of benefit (if any) by drawing more juice.

The computer has been set by acura to pull back timing (see Skeedatl's response) which reduces power, if your TL pulled higher the second time it was luck, mine does pull higher at times also.

By the way, good kill! :toothless

 

I'm not sure about all the fan and blower nonsense above but I think the point some of the guys above were missing is that you use the heater core as an additional cooling device. The heater removes heat from the engine coolant and by running the heater, you increase the surface area by which you are able to remove heat from the engine. You use the heater as a supplemental radiator. Any thoughts Skeed. (Please God, don't let HD get involved here. Next thing you know there will be 50 pages on the flux capacitor)

 

I knew if anyone could answer this it would be you.

 

Since we're on the topic of heat and radiators, has anyone put in Redline Water Wetter? I've got a bottle sitting in my car but I have to remove some coolant beforehand. I've put it in other cars and it seems to work.

Hey, Norse, I don't believe you. I need to see some links. :lol2:

 

OK... so you were doing this with a 5AT? Did you simply leave it in "D" or did you use the "M" mode? Next time, try the "L" -> "D" -> "M" method. It feels a bit quicker than the "M" mode.

What's with the heater? I'm not sure that really helps at all. In theory it might but in the real world I doubt you can really cool the engine fast enough in a stoplight race.

 

It is a 5AT and I just left it in drive. Low will upshift by itself to second, correct? And then will it hold second until redline before you pop it to drive?

Also, I didn't know about the heater thing but I figured it couldn't hurt.

And BTW, call me an idiot but I ran out of gas the other day and I have to say, DAMN!!!! The steering without the power-assist was extremely heavy. I had to really muscle it to get it to turn and I think my Toyota Sequoia had lighter steering without the motor on (okay that time it was my wife's fault, honest). I wonder how much power the freakin' power steering zaps from the motor.

 

I used to run water wetter in my 5-0 'cause of my crappy radiator. It did make a noticable difference, but if your TL is already running at optimum temp, there is no point in putting in water wetter.

As you probably know, a colder engine isn't necessarily better. The fuel curves programmed into the ECU among other things respond to coolant temp. If the motor is colder, it needs more fuel to run (while you aren't putting in any more air). This rich condition affects it's emissions and can run your MPG up.

When they program the maps, they may for a lean burning engine set the optimum temp at say for example 220F. If through water wetter or other changes get it to run 180F, it won't be using the correct mapping.

 

In "M" or "D" first gear will upshift way before redline. In "L", it'll upshift at or near redline but it won't upshift any further.

So here's what I do: Drop it to "L". Stomp on the gas and keep foot all the way down. When I get near redline it tap the shifter up into "D". The tranny then shifts to 2nd gear. Right after the shift I pull the stick ot the left to the "M" and keep doing the upshifts myself.

I've yet to confirm this with real numbers but it does feel like a faster run to 60MPH than either leaving it in "D" or using "M" only.

 

This is correct, in fact there are road signs saying this on the road out to Vegas (I15N)...that if your car is overheating, turn off the A/C and turn on the heater on full blast...for the exact reason you show. The heater core is simply a radiator, but instead of the air blowing through from the outside into the engine compartment as with the radiator in the front of the car, the air is directed through the core to the inside of the car.

It's essentially giving you a larger radiator. I don't know what the watt requirements are for the blower motors, but I'm guessing they are considerable. It's 746 watts per horsepower so if someone happens to know they can see how much HP they are effectively robbing. It could be .1 HP or .5HP possibly. Advancing timing may only be worth a few HP depending on the motor setup so it's not like you're going to go a tenth quicker in the 1/4 running the heater

 

your probably right i thought the load on the alternator would be less, but the cooling makes more sense.

 

...I used to be one of the guys that were obsessed with cranking out extra HP. My first experience with ECU's and the complexity involved with engine tuning was with my Type R which was already difficult since it was mated with a Jackson Racing Supercharger...boy what a headache, so many variables...

Anyways...my point is, many find it silly to be spending hours and retarding this and that to crank out HP.

In todays world, with so many cars vying for the prestige or HP output, performance, etc., a certain website, or mag, will give the nod to a certain car based on that few HP gained. Look at the comparo between headers, etc. The differences between DC or Mugen, Comptech, are almost neglible, so how do you choose.

Well, maybe NORSE can back me up, but that extra HP may be the difference for a drag racer between half a car length or more based on the launch.

And for those tuners, those extra HP is just their hobby. Kind of like those computer nerds that squeeze out every MHZ on their computer when unless you worked at MIT analyzing the wavelengths of fission particle energies, you were never going to use that!!!

I personally am happy with my 270HP!! I got to 220HP at the wheels on my TYPE R before I became a complete wrteched wreck.

 

good kill..you should've ran circles around him...i guess the 330ci owners around my area a re smarter. they never tried to race me ...i just hate guys who give you a 'sMUG' look....that guy in the passenger seat probably had an old beater up car and was totally enjoying being in his friends bimmer....

 

Thanks for that advice, I'll try that...this is going to require some getting used to...oh why didn't I GET 6SPD (stupid, stupid, stupid)

 

I guess I could just check the manual but I was under the impression that the TL would shift from first to second on its own while in low, and then hold second. Is this correct?

 

I think you're correct. It will shift to 2nd gear in "L" but then it won't upshift anymore afterwards.

Still, I like doing the "L" to "D" shift myself.

 

Maybe maturity comes naturally with age (I suspect I am older than many of you posting here) but these references to "kills" and 80mph racing on public streets really cause me concern. I admit to having "taken the bait" on occasion over the years, but I know that it is a really stupid thing to do. I know what I have and I know what (with equal drivers) I could beat, and generally let it go at that.

 

Call me retired, and this is not meant to be arrogant, but I can't really see the difference in driving my car vs. a police cruiser at 80 mph, or for that matter over 100 mph on the freeway chasing a stolen car. My skill level hasn't changed just because I'm a civilian now.

 

I read your post, but am not quite sure what you were trying to say. Are you saying that driving a police cruiser is like driving an '04 TL, or speed is not an issue to you because of your experience?

 

A policeman driving 80 or 100 on the interstate is more often than not justified in the line of duty. Just because one has the skill to drive that fast or faster doesn't mean drag racing on the public streets is a smart thing to do. The original post talks about needing to stop for the next light. I assume it was in a high density of traffic and population area. If you are the cause of a wreck with serious personal injury you probably will be doing your next race on foot. If you can afford shoes.

 

I'm saying that a reasonable and prudent speed based on the current traffic conditions and driver skill, although illegal, isn't a huge deal to me. Now granted, I'm just talking about having a little fun at a stoplight in acceleration contest up to 70 or 80 in no traffic and clear conditions. And if you throw the argument that my speed would be outrageous if someone pulle from a sidestreet, I would argue that my TL could stop from 70 mph in the same distance a fully loaded semi could do it in from the legal limit of 45 mph at the location I did this.

Now don't get me wrong, some guy posted a video of a civic driver racing a twin turbo 350Z through traffic on the freeway at what I thought were speeds over 100, weaving in and out and changing lanes dangerously close to other cars...now that is assinine!

 

Never said it was smart. There were two stoplights within a little over a quarter mile of each other, but there was no traffic in front of me as far as the eye could see. Now there was a car waiting to go the other direction at the stoplight, which apparently triggered the light to change, but I had no problem braking in time for the light.