I need to do ATF change. Why 3x3 method. Why not just flush it?
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Cruisin'
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I need to do ATF change. Why 3x3 method. Why not just flush it?
I just bought this car. My second Acura, but my first AT Acura. I've done ATF changes before and for years did the standard dropping of oil and replacing method. Then a few years back I read on another forum about disconnecting the ATF line to the rad, connect it to a clear hose, and run that hose to a oil container. I then run the vehicle for a few seconds to let the oil flow into that container. Once the container has about 4 litres, I'd shut the vehicle off and add 4 litres to the tranny. Repeat this 3 times or so and you'll see the tranny fluid from the line gets to be a nice clean color.
I've done this a few times. On my truck and my Maxima. It worked great everytime. In the Acura TL's case I'd only run the car for 3 litres before shutting off and replacing, but its still the same concept.
My question is, why does everyone talk about the 3x3 method only. I've done a bunch of searches and can't find any references to anyone trying the method above. Can any of you see any reason why I can't do my method? I think the fluid change would be about 99% with this method.
Or does the 3x3 method work well enough and its not worth my time and the mess it can make to purge it like I've done in the past. It just seems to me like the 3x3 method is still mixing some old oil. Like its only a 75% change or something.
The reason I want to do this is I just bought this car and I've noticed the tranny sometimes shifts a little rough when I decelerate. Noticable downshifting is something I've never noticed on any other vehicle before and I don't know if this is normal. But changing tranny fluid is one of those things alot of people overlook. I know when I first bought my Maxima, it had 125K kms and shifted a little rough and the tranny flush made it much smoother. My 2006 TL I just bought has 157k Kms and judging by the guy I bought it from, probably has never had a flush done. Or any other maintenance for that matter.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
I've done this a few times. On my truck and my Maxima. It worked great everytime. In the Acura TL's case I'd only run the car for 3 litres before shutting off and replacing, but its still the same concept.
My question is, why does everyone talk about the 3x3 method only. I've done a bunch of searches and can't find any references to anyone trying the method above. Can any of you see any reason why I can't do my method? I think the fluid change would be about 99% with this method.
Or does the 3x3 method work well enough and its not worth my time and the mess it can make to purge it like I've done in the past. It just seems to me like the 3x3 method is still mixing some old oil. Like its only a 75% change or something.
The reason I want to do this is I just bought this car and I've noticed the tranny sometimes shifts a little rough when I decelerate. Noticable downshifting is something I've never noticed on any other vehicle before and I don't know if this is normal. But changing tranny fluid is one of those things alot of people overlook. I know when I first bought my Maxima, it had 125K kms and shifted a little rough and the tranny flush made it much smoother. My 2006 TL I just bought has 157k Kms and judging by the guy I bought it from, probably has never had a flush done. Or any other maintenance for that matter.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
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Drifting
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From: Carlsbad, CA
If you read the owners manual, you'll see that a 3x3 is only needed when you had to add a non-Z1 compatible ATF and you want to restore the car back to 'factory' performance.
You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid. I personally change my fluid more frequent than 60K- I do a 20K cycle instead. I'll change out my sensors at 50K miles.
You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid. I personally change my fluid more frequent than 60K- I do a 20K cycle instead. I'll change out my sensors at 50K miles.
Wow. Just plain wow.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2011
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If you read the owners manual, you'll see that a 3x3 is only needed when you had to add a non-Z1 compatible ATF and you want to restore the car back to 'factory' performance.
You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid. I personally change my fluid more frequent than 60K- I do a 20K cycle instead. I'll change out my sensors at 50K miles.
You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid. I personally change my fluid more frequent than 60K- I do a 20K cycle instead. I'll change out my sensors at 50K miles.
Geez Honda sure seems adamant about not doing the complete flush method. I can see why though. I hear all the time about tranny shops doing their version of a flush, which usually is a backwards flush. I've heard some horror stories about backward flushes.
Go to thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756164
... and check out the posts by ibeplato starting around post #20 and you'll see what can go wrong if you do a flush.
... and check out the posts by ibeplato starting around post #20 and you'll see what can go wrong if you do a flush.
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^^^^Needs to read Acura Service News, Jan 2008
Last edited by nfnsquared; Oct 21, 2011 at 04:05 PM.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
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Go to thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756164
... and check out the posts by ibeplato starting around post #20 and you'll see what can go wrong if you do a flush.
... and check out the posts by ibeplato starting around post #20 and you'll see what can go wrong if you do a flush.
I want to do what YeuEmMaiMai says at post #31. If I setup all the fluid in a container and run the car till its all removed from the container, then its no different then normal operation. The tranny itself is moving the fluid at the correct flow rate and most importantly, in the normal direction. I've heard the biggest problem with tranny shop flushes is they purge the fluid in the opposite direction then normal. It supposedly flushes out more crap. But then that crap gets stuck in bad places.
I think this method is quicker and replaces 99% of the fluid.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
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From: Carlsbad, CA
"Always use a Honda ATF-Z1. If it's not available, you may use a DEXRON III ATF as a temporary replacement. Howerver, continued use can affect the shift quality. Have the transmission flushed and refilled with ATF-Z1 as soon as it is convenient. To Thoroughly flush the transmission, the technician should drain and refill it with Honda ATF-Z1 then drive the vehicle for a short distance. Do this three times. Then Drain and refill the transmission a final time"
Is this not the 3x3?
Geez guys are you blind or just can't read? I'm pretty sure your earlier year owner's manuals have similar lingo.
Not sure about the references regarding being on the forum for so long- what is that suppose to really mean? Yep I have been around and have seen all types of posts over the years. I do read about a lot of crap posts from time to time and the 3x3 is one of those ones that always comes up. There is no evidence that doing a 3x3 actually prevents a transmission failure- it certainly won't hurt but is a serious waste of time, money and resources.
I think the sensors and using a Type-F fluid (as IHC recommends) is your best bet to prevent problems down the road. I'm hedging by changing my ATF every 20k which is like a 3x3 at 60K but only better.
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From: Bakersfield
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
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From: Carlsbad, CA
I'll give the OP another clue: change your ATF to something better like Redline Type-F and save the flush money and potential damage for doing a couple drain/refills instead with the type-F. The car is out of (factory) warranty anyway- may as well go with the best stuff possible although the damage of potentially not change of ATF might have already been done. There has been no mention of whether the ATF was ever changed- perhaps the OP has some maintenance receipts that indicate a 60K service was performed- that would include the drain/refill.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
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So I ended up doing the 3x3 method. The lines going to the radiator looked pretty buried and I had alot to do today so I didn't want to pull too much of the car apart.
I'm sure that fluid had never been done. It was very dirty. The car shifted pretty good considering how dirty it was. I did the first two 3 litre changes and the color didn't change much. But after the 3rd 3 litre change it actually started to look red again. So I think I'll need to do another 3 litre change in 5-10 k again. I've read a bunch of stuff on here about the pressure switches so I picked a couple up at the dealership today. I'll probably put those on tomorrow.
I also found out something pretty interesting too. My code P0172 too rich on bank1 is probably due to the cheap O2 sensor the previous owner must have just put on. I hooked it up to my ODB II diag and its waveform was pretty interesting to say the least. I've surprised the car runs as smooth as it does. I should start a separate post to share my screen capture of the cheap O2 sensor. It will be a good warning to those cheap guys out there not buying Bosch or NGK's.
Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a ton about this car this week.
I'm sure that fluid had never been done. It was very dirty. The car shifted pretty good considering how dirty it was. I did the first two 3 litre changes and the color didn't change much. But after the 3rd 3 litre change it actually started to look red again. So I think I'll need to do another 3 litre change in 5-10 k again. I've read a bunch of stuff on here about the pressure switches so I picked a couple up at the dealership today. I'll probably put those on tomorrow.
I also found out something pretty interesting too. My code P0172 too rich on bank1 is probably due to the cheap O2 sensor the previous owner must have just put on. I hooked it up to my ODB II diag and its waveform was pretty interesting to say the least. I've surprised the car runs as smooth as it does. I should start a separate post to share my screen capture of the cheap O2 sensor. It will be a good warning to those cheap guys out there not buying Bosch or NGK's.
Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a ton about this car this week.
This is wrong and your interpretation of what is said in the owners manual is incorrect.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
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From: Bakersfield
So I ended up doing the 3x3 method. The lines going to the radiator looked pretty buried and I had alot to do today so I didn't want to pull too much of the car apart.
I'm sure that fluid had never been done. It was very dirty. The car shifted pretty good considering how dirty it was. I did the first two 3 litre changes and the color didn't change much. But after the 3rd 3 litre change it actually started to look red again. So I think I'll need to do another 3 litre change in 5-10 k again. I've read a bunch of stuff on here about the pressure switches so I picked a couple up at the dealership today. I'll probably put those on tomorrow.
I also found out something pretty interesting too. My code P0172 too rich on bank1 is probably due to the cheap O2 sensor the previous owner must have just put on. I hooked it up to my ODB II diag and its waveform was pretty interesting to say the least. I've surprised the car runs as smooth as it does. I should start a separate post to share my screen capture of the cheap O2 sensor. It will be a good warning to those cheap guys out there not buying Bosch or NGK's.
Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a ton about this car this week.
I'm sure that fluid had never been done. It was very dirty. The car shifted pretty good considering how dirty it was. I did the first two 3 litre changes and the color didn't change much. But after the 3rd 3 litre change it actually started to look red again. So I think I'll need to do another 3 litre change in 5-10 k again. I've read a bunch of stuff on here about the pressure switches so I picked a couple up at the dealership today. I'll probably put those on tomorrow.
I also found out something pretty interesting too. My code P0172 too rich on bank1 is probably due to the cheap O2 sensor the previous owner must have just put on. I hooked it up to my ODB II diag and its waveform was pretty interesting to say the least. I've surprised the car runs as smooth as it does. I should start a separate post to share my screen capture of the cheap O2 sensor. It will be a good warning to those cheap guys out there not buying Bosch or NGK's.
Thanks for all the replies. I've learned a ton about this car this week.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,499
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From: Carlsbad, CA
Just what does the Owners manual mean if I'm so incorrect in my interpretation? You're pretty quick to say my interpretation is wrong- what is yours then? At least, nobody is refuting that it was in the Owner's Manual so we're making some headway here.
It seems pretty clear to me what this passage means. If you use an ATF that is not Honda recommended you can restore the Honda performance by doing a 3x3- or perhaps it's actually a 4x4.
This is a moot point for me anyway- I change my ATF every 20K and have now started using Type-F. I will never need to do any 3x3 in this mode of operation since the ATF is always pretty fresh to begin with. Now with the OP with 100K almost on the tranny- that's a completely different story and maybe a 3x3 makes sense for him.
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Links work just fine, but you have to follow the instructions at the top of the page....
Look at post #2. All the information is in those links. You misinterpreted what the owners manual stated to mean to ONLY do the 3x3 in the event that an owner puts anything but Z1 in the tranny.
Here, I'll break it down.
"Always use a Honda ATF-Z1. If it's not available, you may use a DEXRON III ATF as a temporary replacement. Howerver, continued use can affect the shift quality. Have the transmission flushed and refilled with ATF-Z1 as soon as it is convenient.
HERE IS WHERE YOU ARE MISINTERPRETING. The below paragraph has nothing to do with putting in a temporary replacement ATF. The below paragraph explains what is the proper procedure for "flushing" the transmission irregardless of what ATF is put in.
To Thoroughly flush the transmission, the technician should drain and refill it with Honda ATF-Z1 then drive the vehicle for a short distance. Do this three times. Then Drain and refill the transmission a final time"
Here, I'll break it down.
"Always use a Honda ATF-Z1. If it's not available, you may use a DEXRON III ATF as a temporary replacement. Howerver, continued use can affect the shift quality. Have the transmission flushed and refilled with ATF-Z1 as soon as it is convenient.
HERE IS WHERE YOU ARE MISINTERPRETING. The below paragraph has nothing to do with putting in a temporary replacement ATF. The below paragraph explains what is the proper procedure for "flushing" the transmission irregardless of what ATF is put in.
To Thoroughly flush the transmission, the technician should drain and refill it with Honda ATF-Z1 then drive the vehicle for a short distance. Do this three times. Then Drain and refill the transmission a final time"
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,499
Likes: 222
From: Carlsbad, CA
Ok thanks for the help on the links. I used IE instead of FireFox and can now see this posting and it is below so everyone can see it. A couple of points here:
1. yes the procedure is for when you need to actually flush the transmission.
2. Nowhere does it say you need to do this flush as part of a regular service. I have a factory manual and the 60k service: page 14-308 has step #3 call out draining the fluid and step #5 calls out refilling fluid with 3.0L of ATF. There is NO mention of needing to flush the transmission.
3. Yes ggesk I looked at post #2 in that link- that is one person's (hapadc5) opinion that is not substantiated in a Factory repair manual. Why on earth would I follows his opinion? You act like this opinion is fact when it appears not to be fact based at all. I think I have a better opinion which is do the drain/refill every 20K instead. I certainly see how dealers could be motivated in pushing this service though.
On a side note, I see this 'flush' mentality akin to those members that feel they need to replace their Mobile1 synthetic oil every 3000 miles when the oil is designed to last much longer. Seems much better to change the ATF more frequent (like every 20K) and see how the wear accumulates on the drain plug magnet than wait for 60K and do the drain/fill/drain/fill/drain/fill thing and throw out fluid that is only 10 minutes old. To each his own I guess.
Oh here's the text regarding the flush procedure since we're at it:
1. yes the procedure is for when you need to actually flush the transmission.
2. Nowhere does it say you need to do this flush as part of a regular service. I have a factory manual and the 60k service: page 14-308 has step #3 call out draining the fluid and step #5 calls out refilling fluid with 3.0L of ATF. There is NO mention of needing to flush the transmission.
3. Yes ggesk I looked at post #2 in that link- that is one person's (hapadc5) opinion that is not substantiated in a Factory repair manual. Why on earth would I follows his opinion? You act like this opinion is fact when it appears not to be fact based at all. I think I have a better opinion which is do the drain/refill every 20K instead. I certainly see how dealers could be motivated in pushing this service though.
On a side note, I see this 'flush' mentality akin to those members that feel they need to replace their Mobile1 synthetic oil every 3000 miles when the oil is designed to last much longer. Seems much better to change the ATF more frequent (like every 20K) and see how the wear accumulates on the drain plug magnet than wait for 60K and do the drain/fill/drain/fill/drain/fill thing and throw out fluid that is only 10 minutes old. To each his own I guess.
Oh here's the text regarding the flush procedure since we're at it:
Some A/T repair procedures call for flushing the trans using Acura Precision Crafted ATF-Z1 (and no
substitutes). Problem is, where do you find the info to do that? It’s not listed in the S/Ms and if you do an
ISIS search, you’ll find a few ServiceNews articles on this subject, but they’re rather dated, and none of
them say the same thing.
NOTE: The term “flushing” refers to repeatedly draining and refilling the trans with Acura Precision Crafted
ATF-Z1. Don’t confuse it with aftermarket flush systems. American Honda still strongly recommends that
you avoid using them on any Acura vehicle.
The original procedure was written for simpler A/Ts that readily upshifted when you ran the vehicle on a lift.
But A/Ts have come a long way since then, and most of the newer ones balk at shifting past 2nd gear
when on a lift, unless you work the shift lever a certain way.
In light of all this, we thought it was high time that the A/T flushing procedure got a facelift. So here’s the
latest word on flushing that works for all A/Ts:
1. Set the parking brake, and raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Drain the trans, and refill it with Acura Precision Crafted ATF-Z1. Refer to the applicable S/M or to ISIS
for details.
3. Start the engine, shift into Drive, and release the parking brake.
4. Push down on the accelerator pedal to raise the vehicle speed to 2,500 rpm.
• If the trans shifts past 2nd gear, go to step 5.
• If the trans won’t shift past 2nd gear, keep the engine speed at 2,500 rpm and shift from Drive to
Neutral and back to Drive. Then go to step 5.
5. Make sure that the trans shifts through all the forward gears and goes into torque converter lockup.
6. Let off the accelerator pedal, and press the brake pedal to drop the vehicle speed to zero. Shift into
Reverse and then into Neutral.
7. Shift into Drive, and repeat steps 4 thru 6 four more times.
8. Set the parking brake, and repeat steps 2 thru 6 two more times.
9. Drain the trans, and reinstall the drain plug with a new sealing washer.
10. Refill the A/T with ATF-Z1.
substitutes). Problem is, where do you find the info to do that? It’s not listed in the S/Ms and if you do an
ISIS search, you’ll find a few ServiceNews articles on this subject, but they’re rather dated, and none of
them say the same thing.
NOTE: The term “flushing” refers to repeatedly draining and refilling the trans with Acura Precision Crafted
ATF-Z1. Don’t confuse it with aftermarket flush systems. American Honda still strongly recommends that
you avoid using them on any Acura vehicle.
The original procedure was written for simpler A/Ts that readily upshifted when you ran the vehicle on a lift.
But A/Ts have come a long way since then, and most of the newer ones balk at shifting past 2nd gear
when on a lift, unless you work the shift lever a certain way.
In light of all this, we thought it was high time that the A/T flushing procedure got a facelift. So here’s the
latest word on flushing that works for all A/Ts:
1. Set the parking brake, and raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Drain the trans, and refill it with Acura Precision Crafted ATF-Z1. Refer to the applicable S/M or to ISIS
for details.
3. Start the engine, shift into Drive, and release the parking brake.
4. Push down on the accelerator pedal to raise the vehicle speed to 2,500 rpm.
• If the trans shifts past 2nd gear, go to step 5.
• If the trans won’t shift past 2nd gear, keep the engine speed at 2,500 rpm and shift from Drive to
Neutral and back to Drive. Then go to step 5.
5. Make sure that the trans shifts through all the forward gears and goes into torque converter lockup.
6. Let off the accelerator pedal, and press the brake pedal to drop the vehicle speed to zero. Shift into
Reverse and then into Neutral.
7. Shift into Drive, and repeat steps 4 thru 6 four more times.
8. Set the parking brake, and repeat steps 2 thru 6 two more times.
9. Drain the trans, and reinstall the drain plug with a new sealing washer.
10. Refill the A/T with ATF-Z1.
Last edited by LaCostaRacer; Oct 23, 2011 at 09:31 PM.
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^^^^He's right on both the manual and the service news... (and I respectfully retract my previous post #8).
As I reread the service news, it does indeed say the 3 x 3 is for when a repair procedure calls for a FLUSH, not a regularly scheduled fluid change.
Nope, I have to say both of you are wrong on this one and once again LaCosta got it correct:
The passage from the OM only means to do a 3 x 3 if you need to flush because of non Z1 in the tranny. A flush is not required for a regularly scheduled fluid change with like fluid...
Interesting...sure to generate more discussion...
As I reread the service news, it does indeed say the 3 x 3 is for when a repair procedure calls for a FLUSH, not a regularly scheduled fluid change.
The passage from the OM only means to do a 3 x 3 if you need to flush because of non Z1 in the tranny. A flush is not required for a regularly scheduled fluid change with like fluid...
Interesting...sure to generate more discussion...
Last edited by nfnsquared; Oct 23, 2011 at 10:07 PM.
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From: Houston, Texas
^ My beef was with the statement
"You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid."
I took this to mean that a person could do a single 1x3 to freshen the ATF and there was no reason to do it 3 times.
I think a lot of our conflicts with LaCostaRacer is based on misunderstanding what he is really try to communicate.
"You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid."
I took this to mean that a person could do a single 1x3 to freshen the ATF and there was no reason to do it 3 times.
I think a lot of our conflicts with LaCostaRacer is based on misunderstanding what he is really try to communicate.
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,499
Likes: 222
From: Carlsbad, CA
^ My beef was with the statement
"You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid."
I took this to mean that a person could do a single 1x3 to freshen the ATF and there was no reason to do it 3 times.
I think a lot of our conflicts with LaCostaRacer is based on misunderstanding what he is really try to communicate.
"You DO NOT need to do a 3x3 if you change the fluid with Z1,DW or equivalent fluid."
I took this to mean that a person could do a single 1x3 to freshen the ATF and there was no reason to do it 3 times.
I think a lot of our conflicts with LaCostaRacer is based on misunderstanding what he is really try to communicate.
If you were to do a search on "lacostaracer 3x3", you'll see this topic comes up pretty frequent over the years. One thread was in 2009 where some members recommended NOT to do a 3x3 on a car with such mileage because past members suffered AT failures closely thereafter. Here's the link to this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...costaracer+3x3
Post #5 from 01TL who I always thought was a service adviser had a good comments:
If you already have 100 dont do a 3x3,,it washes away needed sludge holding the clutches together
Personally I wont do a first time change at 100- too risky, based on my own gen2 experience and reading on here
Just keep running it as is- no kidding,,
a 1x3 --if you dare-- with Honda atf only
...
If unsure of fluid condition take a 4 ounce sample and send to www.blackstone-labs.com
they will tell you what to do-
$35 for mass spectrometer testing and check of how long you can run the currect fluid
They can test any type fluid for you
Personally I wont do a first time change at 100- too risky, based on my own gen2 experience and reading on here
Just keep running it as is- no kidding,,
a 1x3 --if you dare-- with Honda atf only
...
If unsure of fluid condition take a 4 ounce sample and send to www.blackstone-labs.com
they will tell you what to do-
$35 for mass spectrometer testing and check of how long you can run the currect fluid
They can test any type fluid for you
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