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I did the regular tune, 200 bucks I think it was, he works at night so I got 2 tunes a night most of the time. my wife was getting pissed off. back and fourth on the computer out to my car drive around repeat.
looks like Utah went first with the regular, then Optimus with VIP, maybe I'll go with VIP plus weekend for $300 lol
For real though, I just wanna be able to drive it after I install the aftercooler and the only time I get to work on the car is during weekends. Idk though, if you guys had pretty quick turn-a-round then maybe I'll just do the $250 one. I'd be plenty happy with one tune a night.
So Im getting "check emissions light" with the code reading " Intake Leak". Everything seems tight, not sure what is going on or why I am getting that code. Could the cold be causing this?
Also, I don't boost anywhere unless VIT tells me to in a log. He said it was ok to drive my 30+ miles to work with no boosting. These past couple days I have been getting nearly 55mpg. Now I know the cold helps, and also Im aftercooled now with conservative highway driving, but 55 makes me think something is wrong with one of my sensors. It just seems way too high.. something must be wrong. Am I paranoid?
So Im getting "check emissions light" with the code reading " Intake Leak". Everything seems tight, not sure what is going on or why I am getting that code. Could the cold be causing this?
Also, I don't boost anywhere unless VIT tells me to in a log. He said it was ok to drive my 30+ miles to work with no boosting. These past couple days I have been getting nearly 55mpg. Now I know the cold helps, and also Im aftercooled now with conservative highway driving, but 55 makes me think something is wrong with one of my sensors. It just seems way too high.. something must be wrong. Am I paranoid?
I had that code also mine was the ZDX throttle body I had to adjust the throttle plate closed it a turn or two,
55 mpg don't think so it's the injector size change you have to change the gas mileage setting in flashpro
I had that code also mine was the ZDX throttle body I had to adjust the throttle plate closed it a turn or two,
55 mpg don't think so it's the injector size change you have to change the gas mileage setting in flashpro
Can you show me how to adjust the throttle plate? Make a DIY for me
Also I was getting 24-25mpg before VIT so maybe his CALS havent accounted for that mileage setting, but the original CTE Calibration had? Can you post a screen shot of where that setting is? I don't mind if you post it here or in the FP thread.
I did 1.5 turns on my TB, but still get the error, I am going to have to give it another half a turn back.
My car gets like 78 mpg...
Update the thread if you find out, I kind of doubt it on my 1100cc's though, as I believe the calculation is done based off of injector duty cycle, throttle plate, map readings.... and so on..
I did 1.5 turns on my TB, but still get the error, I am going to have to give it another half a turn back.
My car gets like 78 mpg...
Update the thread if you find out, I kind of doubt it on my 1100cc's though, as I believe the calculation is done based off of injector duty cycle, throttle plate, map readings.... and so on..
I just talked to VIT about the mpg thing, he didn't realize our cars use that to calculate mpg. Utah was right, under the fuel table there is an entry for flow rate to calculate mpg. Mine was set to 344cc/min, but my injector size is 780cc. I checked the Base CTE SC value and they have entered 917cc/min to calculate mpg.
So just by simple ratio try 1293cc/min and see if that gives you something more sensible.
I did 1.5 turns on my TB, but still get the error, I am going to have to give it another half a turn back.
My car gets like 78 mpg...
Update the thread if you find out, I kind of doubt it on my 1100cc's though, as I believe the calculation is done based off of injector duty cycle, throttle plate, map readings.... and so on..
Did you try and rset the ECU (unhook battery and hold cables together for 30 seconds) after adjust the throttle plate ?
sorry I havent been much help been busy at work and working long nights on my sons car, I will be hard at the emissions passing project in January
Where do we go for that? It doesn't impact the map otherwise, correct?
Im at work but I can post a pic later. It's under the fuel column on the left hand side when you pull up a calibration. It's located at the very bottom when you click on fuel.
It doesn't affect the map at all just the mpg calculation. Im gunna ask VIT to change it for me so that I don't have to keep changing it each CAL he sends me.
Im on CAL like 11 or 12 and did a WOT pull to 7k. Vit tells me I either have massive belt slip or a boost leak. Im thinking it's gotta be belt slip. I can hear it chirping at 4k.. not sure how Im gunna fix this yet. I hear those mircroribbed belts are pretty good. Maybe new adjustable tensioner ( civic guys say the CTE one is crap).
What values did you useto come up with that number? I have had a really long day, not seeing the correlation between:
344cc/min, injector size of 780cc.
I checked the Base CTE SC value and they have entered 917cc/min to calculate mpg.
So just by simple ratio try 1293cc/min <-- you are saying this is what I should use?
Yes that's the number I came up with using the ratio CTE gave for my 780 CC injectors. It may be slightly different because of pressure but this should get you in the ball-park
780/917= 1100/X ~~ X=1293. Hondata says that the flow rate of injectors doesn't necessarily match the flow rate number used to calculate mpg. So I setup ratio from my CTE injectors to calculate the number you should use. Hope that makes more sense now.
Cost was probably 20% factor, 40% reliability of SC (less boost, latent heat, stress etc...), 20% part availabilty, 20% down time of car drive ability during upgrades. All of these decisions made me choose SC over turbo. I'm still happy with the decision.
I just wanted to stick my two cents in here, hopefully I don't get beat up too bad. Forced induction in general is gentler on parts assuming a given engine size and given power level than not only nitrous but also naturally aspirated. Not many people realize this.
A turbo also at the same whp level is gentler on the engine than a supercharger, especially the roots supercharger supplied in this kit. If the supercharger requires 30-40hp to run, the engine has to make 30-40 more hp to break even at the wheels. That means more stress and more headroom is needed in the fuel system for a given whp.
The roots supercharger is far less efficient, my turbo only showed 140F air on an 80F night at 28psi boost where a roots will easily see those charge air temps at 5-6psi. Add in the fact that most turbo setups are intercooled and you're talking near ambient charge temps. Since the turbo (wastegate) is regulated based on intake manifold pressure and not turbo outlet, with the addition of an intercooler and the associated boost drop from cooling the air, the turbo may be putting out an additional 2-4psi of boost pre intercooler that becomes denser and then gets injested in the engine at a lower psi (than the turbo outlet) but higher density. This is part of the reason a turbo setup will make more hp per lb of boost while being more reliable at the same power level.
Your choice in power maker was a good one, I'm not trying to doubt you but I wanted to point out a couple facts. There's no doubt the blower provides plenty of power and is considerably easier to install.
Originally Posted by UTAH TSX
Oh no there is no lag with these turbo setups it is instant power and boost no giant turbos with lag here
I love a properly setup turbo system. Glad yours works so well. I remember racing in the mid to late '90s where I was just about the only one running a turbo 6 and going against the blown and nitrous big blocks and a turbo capable of supplying the air needed had lag unlike no other. The car was no fun to drive on the street and I would get beat by Civics off the start and until 40mph. I used nitrous on a Hobbs switch to spool it at the track. Once the "new" GT series turbos came out and I went with a larger engine (3.8-4.2L just for spool) and I wasn't a kid anymore that wanted only peak numbers the car became so much more fun to drive with practically zero lag.
Even my 328i with it's tiny 2.0L is impressive. It makes about 265hp to the tires, and about the same torque starting from 1,200rpm and pulls strong to redline. It's not some high strung 4 banger, it has tons of low end torque too. I'm very impressed with their implementation. It's not super fast or anything but it drives like it has an average V8 in day to day driving.
Originally Posted by ssjoeboe9
On CTE kit, I am reading 6psi (under full boost) pretty consistently as advertised on CTE website. I did hit 7psi on the way to work in 4th gear but haven't gotten that high again. Idle is around -21psi. 50% throttle is around -10psi and 75% is around 2psi
For now here is a vid and pictures. Went with Prosport Evo Premium Boost Gauge.
Again, please don't take this as a criticism, you have a nice setup. However, the boost vs rpm profile associated with these blowers would be considered unacceptable to most. Yours is no different than all of the other supercharged TLs and TSXs so it's not a "problem" but rather a designed in limitation. That's the way it's meant to function. The problem is, you have "lag" all the way to redline and near stock power at anything below full throttle. I know they purposely want the boost to come in late to avoid having to provide a real tune with the kit. For reference my turbo car with large turbo sees 0 manifold vacuum at less than 1/4 throttle and my 328i sees boost even sooner.
If you have a means of tuning the ECU, you could get such a nicer powerband by manipulating the bypass valve to have instant full boost at whatever rpm you want. That blower will make full boost just off idle which you don't want, it would destroy the rod bearings of this particular engine but full boost at 2,500rpm would be a great thing.
I know some people like a "linear" powerband but a near flat torque curve does not make it non linear. The power will still follow rpm while the torque peak becomes the lowest rpm the turbo/supercharger can hit full boost. Even on the road course you learn to drive around it. I've driven a monster turbo Mustang (turbo in the back seat, intercooler between the tail lights built 347" and 2,200lbs) on a road course. Hard to drive doesn't describe it because it lagged then went full boost in an instant and full boost was 900whp. I thought it was going to literally kill me and after a couple weeks I didn't even notice that I was going deep into the throttle exiting turns and backing off at exactly the right moment when boost came in. You get used to it and it becomes second nature. A street car with good low end boost is not hard to drive at all.
Having that extra low end power makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive on a daily basis. If you want to pass a few cars on the highway, you can leave it in 6th gear and go around them effortlessly instead of hitting 3rd or 4th.
Anyway, I'm done. There's nothing wrong with your setup but if you could change the way boost is managed and allow it to come in sooner with the corresponding and necessary tune, I bet most others would follow you. One of the big advantages of that kind of supercharger is instant boost at any rpm and the manufacturer took that away.
I just wanted to stick my two cents in here, hopefully I don't get beat up too bad. Forced induction in general is gentler on parts assuming a given engine size and given power level than not only nitrous but also naturally aspirated. Not many people realize this.
A turbo also at the same whp level is gentler on the engine than a supercharger, especially the roots supercharger supplied in this kit. If the supercharger requires 30-40hp to run, the engine has to make 30-40 more hp to break even at the wheels. That means more stress and more headroom is needed in the fuel system for a given whp.
The roots supercharger is far less efficient, my turbo only showed 140F air on an 80F night at 28psi boost where a roots will easily see those charge air temps at 5-6psi. Add in the fact that most turbo setups are intercooled and you're talking near ambient charge temps. Since the turbo (wastegate) is regulated based on intake manifold pressure and not turbo outlet, with the addition of an intercooler and the associated boost drop from cooling the air, the turbo may be putting out an additional 2-4psi of boost pre intercooler that becomes denser and then gets injested in the engine at a lower psi (than the turbo outlet) but higher density. This is part of the reason a turbo setup will make more hp per lb of boost while being more reliable at the same power level.
Your choice in power maker was a good one, I'm not trying to doubt you but I wanted to point out a couple facts. There's no doubt the blower provides plenty of power and is considerably easier to install.
I love a properly setup turbo system. Glad yours works so well. I remember racing in the mid to late '90s where I was just about the only one running a turbo 6 and going against the blown and nitrous big blocks and a turbo capable of supplying the air needed had lag unlike no other. The car was no fun to drive on the street and I would get beat by Civics off the start and until 40mph. I used nitrous on a Hobbs switch to spool it at the track. Once the "new" GT series turbos came out and I went with a larger engine (3.8-4.2L just for spool) and I wasn't a kid anymore that wanted only peak numbers the car became so much more fun to drive with practically zero lag.
Even my 328i with it's tiny 2.0L is impressive. It makes about 265hp to the tires, and about the same torque starting from 1,200rpm and pulls strong to redline. It's not some high strung 4 banger, it has tons of low end torque too. I'm very impressed with their implementation. It's not super fast or anything but it drives like it has an average V8 in day to day driving.
Again, please don't take this as a criticism, you have a nice setup. However, the boost vs rpm profile associated with these blowers would be considered unacceptable to most. Yours is no different than all of the other supercharged TLs and TSXs so it's not a "problem" but rather a designed in limitation. That's the way it's meant to function. The problem is, you have "lag" all the way to redline and near stock power at anything below full throttle. I know they purposely want the boost to come in late to avoid having to provide a real tune with the kit. For reference my turbo car with large turbo sees 0 manifold vacuum at less than 1/4 throttle and my 328i sees boost even sooner.
If you have a means of tuning the ECU, you could get such a nicer powerband by manipulating the bypass valve to have instant full boost at whatever rpm you want. That blower will make full boost just off idle which you don't want, it would destroy the rod bearings of this particular engine but full boost at 2,500rpm would be a great thing.
I know some people like a "linear" powerband but a near flat torque curve does not make it non linear. The power will still follow rpm while the torque peak becomes the lowest rpm the turbo/supercharger can hit full boost. Even on the road course you learn to drive around it. I've driven a monster turbo Mustang (turbo in the back seat, intercooler between the tail lights built 347" and 2,200lbs) on a road course. Hard to drive doesn't describe it because it lagged then went full boost in an instant and full boost was 900whp. I thought it was going to literally kill me and after a couple weeks I didn't even notice that I was going deep into the throttle exiting turns and backing off at exactly the right moment when boost came in. You get used to it and it becomes second nature. A street car with good low end boost is not hard to drive at all.
Having that extra low end power makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive on a daily basis. If you want to pass a few cars on the highway, you can leave it in 6th gear and go around them effortlessly instead of hitting 3rd or 4th.
Anyway, I'm done. There's nothing wrong with your setup but if you could change the way boost is managed and allow it to come in sooner with the corresponding and necessary tune, I bet most others would follow you. One of the big advantages of that kind of supercharger is instant boost at any rpm and the manufacturer took that away.
If you end up doing something like that, bringing in boost early on the blower, I would love to hear about it. I've been wanting to see that happen for a long time now. Good luck!
If you end up doing something like that, bringing in boost early on the blower, I would love to hear about it. I've been wanting to see that happen for a long time now. Good luck!
Im in the process of getting all of that dialed in as we speak. You can follow my entire build in the photo section if you're really interested in getting live updates about how the build is going. I wish I could say I'm pioneering (for real application to CU2/TSX I am) but the civic guys have basically been running this setup for a while.
They are doing about 320WHP ~12psi of boost all on stock internals.
I really wanted to go turbo... but for me it wasn't the right choice.
The good thing is as long as you're monitoring knock nothing bad is going to happen to the engine below 450whp. Forget AFR and all of the other "secondary" things people monitor. No knock, no engine damage below that hp level.
They will hold together above 500whp but the stock ring gap is too small and the compression rings will butt together due to excessive heat and you end up with broken ring lands. You can make it live by only doing "point and squirt" driving or at least limiting your full throttle runs to 1/4 mile at a time and giving 5 minutes cool down between full throttle runs. The water temp may stay normal during hard runs but the piston and ring temps will double under boost. This, of course assumes no knock. With a bad tune and knock, plenty of these engine have grenaded at the 300whp level. This is true of any engine, I blew up at least two engines in my GN at the 350whp level which was stock with the boost turned up slightly because I didn't know how to tune and didn't have a knock detector. That was in the mid '90s. Fast forward to today, 602rwhp on the stock bottom end and over 50,000 miles on it with zero issues. I have a knock detector that's so loud and has a buzzer like the worst alarm clock ever that is scares me and forces me to lift instantly when there's knock.
The other issues I can't help with but at least they're cheaper. That tighter tensioner sounds like a catch 22. Even if it doesn't break stuff, it will wear out every accessory quicker. The proper way to do higher boost would be to use a larger crank pulley and the stock blower pulley. It's too bad no one makes a larger crank pulley. That setup should eliminate belt slip and be more reliable too.
It would be even better to drive the blower separate from the accessories, but again nothing is available.
Also, we have OEM knock sensors, but it's really hard with the roots setup to tell if it's real knock or phantom. They are known to be loud. That coupled with resonating sound from the exhaust all make it hard to rely on the knock sensors to tell the "truth" about what's happening.
It would be even better to drive the blower separate from the accessories, but again nothing is available.
Also, we have OEM knock sensors, but it's really hard with the roots setup to tell if it's real knock or phantom. They are known to be loud. That coupled with resonating sound from the exhaust all make it hard to rely on the knock sensors to tell the "truth" about what's happening.
That sucks. We have the same problem on the more "race" of our 3 cars. The solid cam makes the knock sensor go crazy. Being blind we over octane the car lol. Methanol injection on 100 octane just for 25psi boost is the street trim on that car. Totally not necessary but it's worth the additional cost of 100 octane for peace of mind.
It sounds like you really have your stuff together. I'll keep quiet now lol.
I hate cars, this thread is about boost. Albeit meant for discussion of boost on a CU2, there is nothing wrong with you chiming in on the boost talk! I'm sure these guys would love to hear about any experiences/tips/advices you can offer.
Just going by your sig, I think YOU have your stuff together more than most of us.
I've seen it, looks like the guy studied Utah's build pretty meticulously and got himself a decent turbo setup. He says he only has $5k into the car including parts and fab... I find that really hard to believe, but kudos if he made a custom kit for that amount of money... I bet Utah and Optimus have double that in their engine bay haha
10-21-2014, 07:13 PM
