dom

The MazdaSpeed 3's 2.3L Turbo.

Horsepower (hp @ rpm): 263 @ 5500
Torque (lb-ft @ rpm): 280 @ 3000

Not that high revving at all. 280 lb-ft @ 3000 would be nice.

gftgrill

if the HP numbers are anywhere acurate in those articles. I think the tsx-s will be a failure.

they're saying the base will have 235-245 hp and fwd. then they're saying 260 hp for an awd turbo model. the extra weight of the sh-awd system will probably negate most of the hp increase from the base model.

as an awd turbo vehicle I don't think the tsx can compete with subaru. they have the legacy gt which will be on par with the tsx and then they have the sti which will be much faster than the tsx can ever hope to be.

I personally hope that they do get the tsx up to 240ish hp, fix the gearing in the 6 speed transmission, and lower the vtec point to around 5k instead of 6k rpms.

bgriffin

I agree.

TommySalami

Well, the TSX is first and foremost a luxury car. The STI isn't even close to luxury, and while the Legacy is nice, it shouldn't be able to compete with the '09 TSX if Acura does things right.

gftgrill

I know the sti doesn't come close to luxury, but it's more than adaquete when comparing performance. A type S tsx would be for more performance not more luxury. so I think in this case it's comparable.

The legacy is very comparable. it has a very similar feature sheet as the TSX. for just under 34k, you get the legacy gt spec b turbocharged boxer 6 engine with navigation and a 6 speed MANUAL transmission. from everything I've seen the type s will be an automatic with padel shifters. that alone will keep me from ever buying one.

I've heard on the SH AWD acuras you have to change the differential fluid every 10k miles. that just sounds like a pain in the ass to me.

as an awd turbo car, I think the tsx type s will be a failure just like the rdx.

Power1Pete

Don't forget during facelift, Type-S can get some horsepower boost to something that at least match the Honda Accord V-6 horsepower level.

I still don't think Acura's manual tranny works with the SH-AWD system yet. Let's hope down the road (2010?) it will.

LaZyPiGgY

the difference in hp in the base model and the type S may be different, but doesn't torque has to be put into the equation of the weight added to the type S? The base model might have 200 lb/ft of torque being NA, but the type S turbo engine will probably have more torque than horsepower like the current RDX turbo engine so the torque will be a huge difference between the two models.

Aspire705

No offense, but it's an almost certainty that the base model 4 cylinder isn't going to have 200 lb/ft torque. Much more likely is something closer to 170/175 lb/ft. What n/a 4 cylinder engine you know of has 200 lb./ft. torque? Especially at under 2.4 liters. Just my . Carry on.

Aspire705

Also, while I realize all the rumors are touting a 20-30 hp increase for the base model, I would expect something a little more modest & reasonable like maybe a 15-20 hp increase. Certainly nothing as drastic as a 30-40 hp increase like some of us here seem to think.

Maybe it's just me, but a 235-245 hp K24 4-cylinder base model seems a bit too optimistic wouldn't you say? Without additions like A-VTEC and/or a substantial boost in compression, I don't see the base model engine putting out up to (or more than) 100hp/L w/out negative impacts on low-midrange drivability. And that's precisely the output the K24 engine will be making at a rating of 235-245 n/a hp with a displacement around 2.35 L.

My whole point is that though hp/tq improvements will likely be made to & should probably be expected for the 09'+ TSX, we should expect them to be a bit more moderate than what some of us are expecting/hoping. Again just my 2 cents. Carry on gents! :-)

wackura

I'm not sure why a performance increase is realy expected. Honda seems happy to undercut performance in favor of fuel economy. I know almost everyone on this forum wants more power but maybe all the ordinary people who aren't so involved with their cars are happy with how it is and wouldn't want to waste the extra gas that would come from an arbitrary increase in output.

LaZyPiGgY

Aspire, what you say is very true, I meant to just throw the number 200 out there to be a comparison with the turbo engine's high amount of torque

Anyway what Wakura said makes sense with many of Honda's vehicles mainly gas savers and not performance machines.

In the end, forget the base model and lets just worry about the turbo Type S

5thTo2nd

As far as bumps in power go, Honda typically goes up around 12% each time, making the next gen TSX around 230hp.

Here in North America, we're all about keeping up with the Jones'--consistently bigger wheel diameters, more hp, more torque, more features, etc. But I agree, there has to be a ceiling somewhere. Personally, I'm quite happy with 205hp.

davidspalding

Um ... well ... okay, even as "Acura's entry level sedan" (many reviews), I wouldn't consider it a "luxury car." I realize it's a matter of perspective, of course.

wackura

I agree, where the Integra was like a feature rich Civic, the TSX is like a feature rich Accord (not the USDM Accord specificly). Neither car makes the kind of sacrifices to economy you associate with the majority of cars described as being luxury. The TSX is noisy, they didn't insulate it more, and they probably couldn't because it would be too slow, because the engine is too small. It's for that reason I suspect the '09 TSX specs are likely to be as boring as the spied exterior and why any expecation of luxury I have has me looking towards the new TL.

dj Dozhe

I'd like to halt the possible hijack before everyone gets heated and throws this thread down a different road. Personally I have no hesitations in calling the TSX a luxury car.

The industry seems pretty convinced that it's a luxury car.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=luxury

But of course people like to have their own opinions on what luxury means to them
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=luxury

Search luxury to find a few threads to discuss this in.


And now...back to waiting for some REAL information on the 2009 TSX.

biswasd

just for perspective, my dad's 1987 Ford Taurus SHO had 200 hp.....piece of shyte car....but still 220 hp back in 1987 was pretty nice.

That being said, as we've all heard time and time again....for the money...and i repeat...for the money...the TSX is unmatched in both features and driveability.

Roffles

Keep in mind the new 8th generation Honda Accord has a 4-cyl that produces 190hp on regular unleaded under the strict new SAE ratings. Who's to say Honda can't massage another 30-40 horsepower out of this engine with premium fuel and more agressive tuning for the new TSX? They managed to take the 160hp (sae old) 7th generation accrod engine and make it a 205hp engine (sae new) for the current TSX.

And the beauty of the new TSX is that if it were to get the turbo setup from the RDX, we know that direct injection turbo charging produces gobs fo torque. So if the new TSX is rated at ~270hp, it will probably make close to 300 torque. So despite the horsepower, the new TSX is going to pull really hard because of all the torque.

Nogard13

Yeah, but what about all that torque steer? Giving a FWD car that much torque would make it almost undrivable.

Nope, I expect close to a 30-40 HP bump and a 50 lb/ft. bump. Can't get too far into the TL's territory, either.

dom

As long as the TL has an optional engine that makes more than the most powerful engine in the TSX does, it shouldn't be a problem. See BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, etc, etc......

TommySalami

I think the TL and TSX have too much of a size difference to make them really compete with each other. I see no problem with a faster TSX

gftgrill

it would be sh-awd not fwd. so the increase in torque will be fine.

The TL is one of the main reasons I don't think that an awd turbo type s will do so well.

sure most people here would love to have a turbo awd tsx. but unfortunately we make up a small portion of the people who buy these cars.

the rest of the people who are looking at these cars will be comparing a type s to the TL. and if the tsx type s is priced close to 35k. people will opt for the TL or TL type s. because the TL is bigger, has a more comfortable ride, upgrades over the tsx and will probably get better gas mileage with more power.

it's esentially what happened to the rdx. people went in looking at it as a smaller suv to get a little better gas mileage. then they drove it and compared it to the mdx. for about 10k more they got a bigger vehicle with more/better options, and virtually identical gas mileage. expect to see the same when comparing a tsx type s to a tl with a closer price point.

Motorsport

That would be nice indeed. But the gas mileage would get robbed somewhat.

JeffS

I don't see that as an issue since the Europeans share their engines.

In some cases the same engine is shared across almost the entire product line, although some of those models are not available in the states.

A prime example is the 3 liter engine for BMW. It is available in one version or another from the 1 Series up to the 7 Series.

5thTo2nd

But don't forget that the turbo Type S will not necessarily have to do well as long as the TSX lineup as a whole performs well. They may only end up selling a small percentage of Type S's, but that's probably what Acura intends anyways. It's all about pleasing the most people possible, and I applaud Acura for trying to widen their market by attempting to go after this smaller group of buyers.
The "usual" TL/TSX buyers will look at the base models, and the "enthusiast" crowd will now have an additional option. Who knows, we might even win over a few STi/lancer/Legacy GT owners. It's a win-win for the buyer really.

gftgrill

You're right. I know there are a fair number of sti/evo owners that would be happy to have an awd turbo tsx. (I think they just want something that rides nicer)

5thTo2nd

Yup. There's actually a 9 page thread about it over at legacygt. Lots of talk and some members are even thinking of coming over to Acura if the new TSX is nice.

Roffles

Well let's just hope Honda stops tiering their cars this way. They should offer different engine options for the TL to keep the cars seperate. Believe me, there are plenty of people who could easily afford a BMW M5, but chose the M3 instead because its unique sporting attributes. It's "two different audiences for two different cars" and not "wealthy people and poor people buying expensive cars and less expensive cars". Hopefully Acura will get the big picture and stop segmenting their cars based on a power/size ratio. GIVE PEOPLE OPTIONS and price accordingly!!!

dom

Like every other luxury car maker does.

TommySalami

Exactly. They need to make every car the best it can be, regardless of whether it may compete with some other car in their line. Besides, I think the size difference of the TL and TSX (so long as they keep the sizes about the same) is big enough that the cars won't compete with each other.

rb1

One thing that can't be overlooked is that Honda will also plan to upgrade the car during it's model lifetime, which means that they definitely aren't going to put everything they have into the first year.

For example, the TSX was introduced in early 2003 -- as a 2004 model -- and then got a makeover and significant power bump (roughly 10%) in 2006.

So, whatever is coming out in 2009, they'll be leaving room for some growth.

Nogard13

Huh? The hp numbers jumped from 200 to 205. That's only a 2.5% bump, not a 10% bump.

jwood_06TSX

Yea but if you look at the dyno, it was really 15 HP. It also had to do with the change of ratings and such but it was more than the noted 5 HP. AND, i think it was 15 WHP too.....i went from an 04 to an 06 and there was DEF a significant increase!!

dom

The 04, 05 TSX's would have probably been rated closer to 190 using the new SAE system that measures HP. 06 and up use this new rating.

Just02

He said "March 2008" and "March 2009", this is "supposedly" the sales manager of an Acura dealer in Puerto Rico... I'm inclined not to believe him, but I want to!

Mokos23

If the next TSX is 260hp 2.3L Turbo, that will seriously eat into TL sales.

Just02

Until Fall 2008.

TSX69

Rumor has it that the next TL will be over 300 hp so a 260hp TSX would not really overlap ... however, no telling what this means for the RL in terms of HP.

LaZyPiGgY

I don't that if the new TSX is a 260 hp 2.3l turbo, it will eat into any TL sales. The TL is a much larger vehicle and the TSX is much more smaller and compact, even the base engine TL has 258 hp already, but the engines are irrelevant if the buyer is looking for different classes of vehicles. The TL even has technologies the TSX doesn't have.

TommySalami

RL needs a V8

Power1Pete

If BMW have 3, 5 and 7 series with the same engine (in Europe anyway); why can't Acura?