wackura

Yes, please drive one. You're making a big mistake if you don't. I went shopping for a used TL-S and came home with an '09 TSX. Imagine a 1G improved in every imaginable way and you'll have the 2G.

Colin

I hear you but that's not the life cycle of a car. The early adopters are the enthusiasts, and then the 'masses' follow. You'd be shocked to see how many women come to look at a used S2000 we have, only to find that there is no automatic. Enthusiasts know about the car cause the follow it through spy photos etc, the general public knows about the car cause they see it on the road. (driven by enthusiasts)

iTimmy

I agree with the second paragraph and I can't deny the first. A 5 series is about $10k more then the same engine in a 3 series. There isn't room in the Acura price structure for a premium TSX.

dom

Proof? I seriously doubt that.

dom

If I was in the market for a car I would.

wackura

I think torque is more necessary in the US because so many other vehicles here have so much low end torque that you have to punch a small engine at a red light in order to keep up with the cars around you. In Europe the average engine is probably less torqie so you wouldn't feel like you're being constantly bitch slapped by other cars.

dom

Colin, you said that a gap was left when the 09 came out? I can't imagine that the 09 is different enough to have created this gap.


That sounds great but shouldn't have created a gap. Do you see what I'm getting at. I can understand the car being better, but its not so different that its essentially in a different class/league whatever you want to call it.

SSFTSX

Actually it is a difference of about 350lbs. but 2.4L has extra electronics and 17 inch tires. So it is safe to assume it is about 300lbs. Accord 2.0 EX Auto

(Cj)

The gap is the increase of 6 inches to the TL. It's nearly the size of the 7 series. It's no longer "entry-level". Those that want a more compact sedan have no where to go but leave the brand. The new TSX is about the size of the old TL, and a V6 variant would fill the gap left in the lineup nicely. And then there's the whole TL price gain thing...

SSFTSX

TSX is 186 inch which is shorter than 189 inch old 08 TL. It is border line of compact and midsize. since Camry/Accord has enlarged with time

dom

But the essence of the car is the same. At least that's what I've read.

(Cj)

The Pilot engine is tuned for torque and that's exactly what the luxury buyer wants. Affluent drivers don't want to have to rev the hell out of the engine to get the car going. They want the car to return the favor when the press the pedal. So torque is essential in any true luxury car.

Also the use of the torquey efficient Pilot motor might mean that SH-AWD maybe on the table also. A lot of torque is needed for the AWD system, so it makes sense. Without SH-AWD the V6 TSX would be an torque steering pig.

FZ427

V6 or turbo or what about a Acura Sedan based on the S2000.

(Cj)

There's a few more factors than "essence" that affect car purchases. The size increase alone can be a turn off for former and potential Acura buyers. Also the price has overall gone up pretty significantly so there's no affordable compact entry level V6 Acura sedan.

Also the new TL is much softer and more luxurious than the last generation. The TL has moved up to RL territory and now the TSX needs to come up and take the TL's former territory.

dom

My point is, would it not make more sense to use a variation of 3.5 found in the TL or Accord rather than the one found in an SUV......The tuning needed for a TSX would be similar to the tuning needed for a TL or Accord, not a Pilot.

So if I was to start a rumor about the TSX getting a V6, I'd be more inclined to say its getting the 3.5 from the TL or Accord, rather than a Pliot. Even though, its essentially the same 3.5.

dom

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm referring to 1st gen vs 2nd gen TSX.

Every review I've read in a round about way the 2nd gen simply improved upon all that was good with the 1st.

iTimmy

Actually you are a complete imbecile that is in kilograms the difference in pounds is 74.55

dom

Anyone else doubting that K20 weighs 300lbs less than the K24.

dom

His numbers were right....

1607kg - 1443kg = 164

164 X 2.2 (kg = 2.2lbs) = 360

I still doubt, in fact I'm near positive that the difference isn't nearly that much.

(Cj)

If AWD is implemented the torquey Pilot engine would be much better than the more horsepower focused TL/Accord motor. Also if the engine does have VCM, I'd rather have the Pilot's torquey VCM motor than the Accord's torqueless VCM motor.


Sorry for the disconnect. Yeah, I've driven both TSXs and they do have the same essence

iTimmy

I always do it backwards

And yes I agree it seems hard to believe.

Colin

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I am of the opinion that the current TSX occupies a similar performance envelope as the older car, however, it takes up more of a parking stall than before. A smaller car would be nice for those that want more than a Civic but less than a current TSX sized car.

However, to me the priority (if I had to choose) would be a V6 TSX to fill the "low 30's gap' left when the TL moved to the mid-high 30's. This is the gap I was speaking of.

Colin

The S2000 is not a flexible chassis. It cannot be 'stretched" without a total redesign.

dom

We're talking about the same motors here anyway. They are all variations of the J.

I think the question here is how differently are the variations of the 3.5 and 3.7 tuned?

Are the 3.7 from the MDX and SH-AWD TL similar? And how different are the non and VCM equipped 3.5's? Their numbers are certainly similar.

Accord sedan with VCM - 271@6200 & 254 @ 5000
Pilot with VCM - 250HP @5700 & 253@4800
Accord Coupe w/out VCM 271@6200 & 251@5000

All pretty close but I think we can agree we'd rather have the extra 20HP in TSX trim. And I'm not sure why you think the non VCM Accord is tourqeless compared to the VCM equipped 3.5?

(Cj)

I said that the VCM equipped Accord was torqueless. VCM in principle saps a lot of torque out of the J35. Of course we know it does that because it shuts down cylinders in order to save fuel. So if VCM is going to be part of the TSX, I'd prefer the Pilot's torquey VCM motor. Also like I've said luxury buyers prefer torque over high end horsepower and if SH-AWD is included in the V6 TSX a torquey engine would be a plus (it is torque vectoring AWD).

dom

My bad, I misread that.

253 @ 4800 vs 251@5000 is a wash. Factor in the TSX weighing several hundred pounds less and its more than enough.

The Pilot even being mentioned in the thread title is where this confusion stems from IMO. No offense to the OP but it was likely mentioned because the OP or whoever it was that gave him the info didn't know the J was shared across Honda like it is.

(Cj)

It may be "a wash", but from actually driving both the Pilot seems to have a better balance. It feels more powerful and eager than the Accord at certain speeds even though the Pilot is as big as a tank. I think the software and tuning for the Accord's VCM is to blame. Of course the TSX can probably share the Accord's motor with different tuning and software (ie more performance oriented).

(Cj)

An A3 type vehicle maybe? I don't know how that would work with the whole "tier one" thing though.

SSFTSX

here is another one from Ireland. and looks to me car is left hand drive. weight for 2.0 EX Auto Exective is 1438 kg with 17inch rim.

3.5 will make TSX too heavy and as much expensive as TL.

Colin

I agree, that why I said if I had to choose, I'd to with the V6. Still, it would be nice to see some new tech come Acura's way like a small hybrid/fuel cell. The idea would be to make a new sub-TSX sized car, but with enough tech to keep it from being perceived as "cheap" Make the CR-Z an Acura!

SSFTSX

As i said before it is matter of time before BMW/MB/Infiniti jump into smaller capacity turbos to compete with Audi 2.0T.

(Cj)

What's your point???

SSFTSX

There is no place for FWD/AWD V6 sedan in Acura lineup and V6 Accord wont sell in Europe. just the carbon tax is too high. V6 TL not only destroyed RL sales but itself is falling down faster than any of its competitors. I see very little reason for Honda investment in that concept.

(Cj)

Now you're really confusing me. That's the same formula VW/Audi have so what makes it wrong for Honda/Acura???

H1K1F1

IMO, this is more evidence that SSFTSX is a troll. Moderators, please ban him.

SSFTSX

You dont see 2.0T A6 in US or 3.6 VW Jetta.
V6 3.5 TSX will cost as much as 3.5L TL and you want it to derate its performacne. (its a Japanese built car Cost higher just like RL is higher than TL with 95% identical equpment like TL). Remember RL has 18inch tires while TL you get 19 HPT within $43K but for RL it is $53K.. who is going to buy this formula in TSX?. The only solution is to introduce lower priced model to simulate sells.

(Cj)

A V6 would only add $3000 to the MSRP, meaning it would only cost $32K and if SH-AWD is added standard it would be $34K. Also your analogies make no sense. Look at the Passat versus A4. The Passat (VR6) is more powerful larger and cheaper than the A4 (3.2L), yet they both coexist. And if you want an example from another luxury brand look at the Lexus IS/ES.

SSFTSX

VW is not same brand as Audi. Audi has distint interior/Ledlights/Rim design/body structure.
Lexus IS/ES has very different size and interior space not to mention RWD and FWD.
With TSX your essentially creating another TL. (Only 5% difference interior difference & with TSX more refined than TL) both in FWD/AWD V6 configuration. If they created such a TSX that will be end of TL (Not that it is some succesful product)

(Cj)

lol, you brought up VW/Audi. My point with the IS versus ES was there essentially the price with similar engines and the only difference is size. It would be a similar distinction between the TSX and TL. Overlap isn't always bad. The V6 TSX and base TL appeal to different market segments anyway. Also a V6 TSX wouldn't be "the end of the TL". The TL will continue to succeed because of it's remarkable value (size, power, luxury, price).

SSFTSX

Have you overlooked RWD/AWD/Transmission of IS or 305bhp or 204bhp engines of IS which dont tie with ES.
I know Honda are stupid they put an end to RL by bumping TL. I am sure they will do the same with TL now. There is very small customer base for 195inch sedan. Puting another alternative (which is not possible in my book) with similar refinement and similar drive setup of FWD/AWD will led to similar results. Can you imagine how fast will be 6MT V6 TSX?