Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I have contacted Innovative and they have advised me there that there was an issue with some of the side mounts (basically in terms of bolting them in). Not all of the side mounts have this issue. If you would like to get a replacement contact Tim at Innovative directly at 714-524-5246. Call him and let him know about your situation and take a picture of your side mount. He may want some measurements too on the bolt holes.

In terms of the vibration, these are polyurethane mounts. There will be some more vibration in the cabin. That's normal. If you have a lot of vibration that's another thing and maybe something is off or the install was off. Innovative would like to have someone stop by their shop so they can look at a car to see what the issue may be. Mike since you are saying you have lots of vibration why not stop by and let them check it out?

Mike

because it's a total of 3+ hours drive time plus time while they check things out. if they want to compensate me for my time i'm good with that.

RUF87

Just took a short 4 mile run after a meeting . . . . and damn . . . mine's doing the same thing. It only happens under load in 1-3 like you said . . . worse in 1 & 2.

It's doesn't appear to be drivetrain related, it almost sounds like exhaust resonance multiple 10x.

I put her back up on jack stands to see if anything was loose or binding, but couldn't see anything. All the bolt were tight as could be.

Anyway, going to take another spin and see if I can narrow it down some more. If it still does it. I'm going to remove the side mount and see if it still does it.

Ruf

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

didn't innovative test fit all the mounts?

TCM 01 CL-S

I've looked also and everything seemed fine, on a positive note, it has become less pronounced.

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

maybe its front the side mount causing the motor to shift to the passenger side a bit and "bending" your exhaust causing a differant tone because its not straight?

RUF87

well . . . I've done some more checking to see what else might be binding or rubbing or whatever

since the sound is worse under initial load, or WOT, it might be exhaust or intake related. Couldn't find a thing wrong with the exhaust. Then I took my Icebox apart to see if perhaps that resonance box was cracked, again nothing. Got to clean it out while I was at it.

Back to more poking around. Since it's worst under load I tried power braking. Well, it did it just as bad. With the parking brake on and the brake mashed, I rev'd it up to just about 2200 rpm and the same sound that you got driving under load was reproduced.

I tried it in reverse, and nothing . . . could not get it to reproduce the sound under load. So, this is making me think it's transmission related now.

So I tried it in 2nd - seeing that when you're in 2nd - it'll take off in 2nd. BOY!, I thought I was in one of those big massaging chairs. I mean like Mike said, the whole car shook and vibrated.

What got me then was that after letting off the gas, it still vibrated like a space shuttle launch . . . but as soon as I let off the brake it would stop.

Well I finally decided to take off the side mount and see if it would stop . . . . NOT . . . it still did it. Now I'm depressed.

I'm still thinking it's something to do with the tranny, but what? What could have impacted the tranny during the install of the last mount. Remember, I installed my side and front the same day. And drove it a few times without any of this noise problem. So in my case, it was something that happened while installing the rear mount. I know I had a bear of a time getting the engine high enough for the bolt to slip out. But I know I checked to make sure no lines were getting pinch, bent or pulled loose . . . I even watched my Icebox, which I could clearly see move, but it never gave any indication I was going to far. I also watched the exhaust system for binding, but nothing noted there. I'm sure if I went too far for these XPS headers, the welds or something would have cracked, but nothing.

This is what's so frustrating . . . is that there are a lot of weak links that would have been damaged before the tranny, and the only thing I can think of there is the passenger side drive shaft. But if it was the tranny or drive shaft, it would be a problem at any RPM. So I'm stumped . . . and will sleep on it . . . maybe even a nightmare, and take another crack at it maybe tomorrow (2/5), but it might not be until this weekend depending on work and stuff.

On one positive note . . . . I tried a hard launch and there was a little wheel spin, but no wheel hop. So that part works.

Ruf

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

i really doubt that's what causing the noise but i bet it does have something to do with this mount not aligning. i know silver removed it and it went away so the noise is either from the mount not being aligned perfect or the stiffer bushing causing something.

RUF87

Mike, can we get a count of who's experiencing the major vibration problem, did they install the mounts the same day, if not what order, who installed it, anything else you think we need to assess this issue.

Something like this maybe.

1) Ruf
Installed side and front mount myself at the same time - no noise problems - very mild vibration - did experience side mount alignment problems; installed rear mount myself a week later . . and immediately experienced major vibration problems.

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

just thought of something now that RUF brought up a possible issue caused back jacking up the motor. does anyone that did the roofing poly mod to their mounts had this issue upon re installation. because basically they did the same removal and re installation, we just installed a different product.

Mike

1) Ruf
Installed side and front mount myself at the same time - no noise problems - very mild vibration - did experience side mount alignment problems; installed rear mount myself a week later . . and immediately experienced major vibration problems.
2)mike - 3 mounts installed. STRONG vibrations through out the cabin while stopped. strong vibrations at low rpms. large increase in engine note at all rpms

Silvaccordex01

iTrader: (2)

Like ive said in alot of my posts, you will get a big jump in vibrations when you install the rear mount. I was like you in the fact that i put the side and front on the same day and experience very little if any vibrations. When the rear was installed, big jump in vibrations at idle and WOT at high RPMS along with increased engine noise in cabin.

So what ive done is this. I took the side mount out and put stock back in, cured noise problem, and front P2R plenum no longer rubs hood liner. Last night i decided to take the job of removing the rear mount as well because i did not like all the vibrations and engine noise increase that came with the rear mount installed. It actually turned out to be a really easy job compared to what distorted said. All you have to do is take the strut bar out, raise the rear of the engine just a little bit, use a 20 inch extension and unbolt the 4 mount bolts and than use a 17mm for the main mount nut and bam its out. distored had to bend some sort of hose line or something, but all you really have to do is flip the mount upside down, and pull it straight out and it comes right out without and troubles or bending any lines. Im sure distored just didnt realize this when he took his out. I had the mount swapped in under 2 hours and i took my time. I cant believe i paid someone 180 to put the innovative one in! :angryfire If you can do the front, you can definatly do the rear, specially on a 6 speed. The results are much more to my liking. No vibrations at idle or wot, quieter engine noise in cabin and still an improvement with wheel hop over stock having just the front innovative mount in. So heres my verdict for now

Side mount has too many issues, not going to install unless completely redesigned

Front mount has no issues, fits perfectly and will last alot longer than problem prone stock mount and has a lifetime warranty, plus looks fancy under the hood. Reduced wheel hop

Rear mount causes too many vibrations and increased engine noise in cabin, I removed and will most likely sell in the black market

And last, totally pissed i wasted 180 for rear mount install

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

with the list going, we should indicate if your auto or 6speed

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

did you guys expect no vibrations? sounds like you weren't prepared for this kind of modification. polyurethane motor mounts cause vibrations.

RUF87

Yeah, other than the design fitment issue with the side mount, and a minor problem getting the big bolt on the rear to start, putting in the Innovative mounts are MUCH easier than the OEM mounts.

With the exception of the rear mount taking out the OEM mounts was fairly easy. I need to look at the rear mount from the bottom and see if it would have been better taking it out from there . . . .

As for the vibrations with all three Innovative mounts in, it's really not that bad as I expect the bushings will soften up after some driving. The vibrations that Mike and I are talking about under load are way too much. It literally feels like you're sitting in a NASCAR or one of the big vibrating massage chairs. I had SOLID STEEL motors in my 64 Malibu SS - no bushings whatsoever and while the car shook from the power of the engine, it didn't even vibrate like this, so there's a serious issue here . . . and I hope it wasn't something I did during the removal of the rear OEM mount.

Ruf

RUF87

See my comments above . . . this is WAY beyond what it should be. I don't believe that even the black race only bushing would vibrate at the level a few of us are experiencing. As I said, I've experience SOLID STEEL mounts in a car with way more HP and shaking going on. What we're experiencing is some caused bu the install of the rear mount, and I don't think it is the rear causing this as one of the guys took the side out and still have the rear and front in without this perticular problem.

Anyway, I got the side out and I'm going to disconned the rear mount just to make sure . . . if the noise is still present during the power brake test, some major was screwed up during the removal of the rear.

Ruf

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i just don't understand how the mounts themselves could cause such vibrations. their designs are pretty intuitive.

again, no one answered my question, i thought innovative test fitted all of the mounts on cars for a time before they mass produced them?

if the answer is yes, and they saw no symptons of what people are talking about, i'm forced to believe either a) production was messed up on these mounts or b) someone went wrong in the install.

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

i remember mike drove to their shop and they test fitted the side mount. i find it hard to believe that they didn't set the mount in the bay to make sure the holes line up. seems like that would be the first step. i don't know if they test fitted the other mounts.
i am calling them today to ask questions about the side mount.

Mike

test fitment was done on the side mount. they never test drove the car w/the side mount on because their prototype needed modification. none of the other mounts were mounted or tested.

RUF87

We've heard from Josh that there was a design problem on the first run of side mounts, Mike, myself and maybe as many as 4 more may have got those bad mounts. It's possible that with the correct mount we would have less vibration.

I also am beginning to believe that there is a specific installation procedure for removing the rear mount that myself, a couple of others and Innovative themselves did not do. And in removing the rear mount with the wrong procedure could cause engine and or tranny alignment, or have bent the exhaust when we raised the engine enough to get the rear mount out.

After taking my son to school this morning I listened to it again, and am thinking it's one of two things.

1) engine/tranny alignment that is putting or put pressure on the drive axles, and thereby putting stress on the bearings under load. Perhaps even permanent damage in the short time we drove our cars with the bad designed mount.

2) we unknowingly bent our exhaust at some point during the removal of the rear mount. That why I asked everyone whose installed these mounts and is experiencing abnormal vibrations and the loud growling/roaring sound a few of us have.

We can potentially eliminate the headers being bent if we can confirm that those of us with the problem have headers, and removed the rear mount by jacking the motor up.

I'm not hoping for either of these, but the headers my end up being the least cost screw-up. If it's related to the tranny/drive axels, then we're looking at a major screw-up The question then is, did the bad side mount alignment put just enough stress on the engine/tranny that led to some damage, or was it during the rear mount removal? Not sure we can know that, at least until we get feedback from those yet to install.

All I can say at this point. I have not problem with the normal vibrations I experienced initially, it definately helps traction and wheel hop, BUT before anyone else has their mounts INSTALLED, any place other than a dealer, may be risking this problem than can potentially be a very expensive lesson learned.

Ruf

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i'd like to see some posts about the others who installed. if i recall there is about 10 or 15 others that were part of this group buy. where are they and how was their install?

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I think some of this being blown out of proportion. When Innovative said the manufacturing may have been off they meant that the third hole might be off slightly, not permanent damage to axles and other parts of the engine. I'm sorry but polyurethane mounts cause more vibration. If you wanted to a soft, comfortable ride then stick to the OE. That is the nature of modifying cars. However, if you have excessive vibration then that is another thing.

Why doesn't someone local to Innovative go to Innovative and let them install a set of mounts? Right now all we have is feedback from 3 ppl in this thread and I think it would be good to get more feedback from the manufacturer.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

They did test fit the side mount and make modifications. There are only some of the side mounts that have issues; not all of them.

And as CleanCL said there are more ppl who have installed and they haven't had a problem. I have seen posts in the other thread.

RUF87

Josh, the problem Mike and a couple of us are experiencing is beyond expected vibrations . . . at least for me it is. As I've noted, I've run mounts that are harder than the hardest mount Innovative offers for this car/design. They were full solid steel mounts and so I have a very good idea based on experience what should be expected. The vibrations I feel at idle in neutral or in drive, with all 3 mounts is perfectly acceptable to me. I've stated this before.

Okay, so what we are talking about here is a totally different issue. Since none of us who've installed these mount can look at each other's setup, we are limited in how we approach this. The only approach we can take is a process of elimination of ALL potential problems. While damage to the tranny/drivetrain is remote, I cannot totally rule it out. Reason is that I managed to bend the power steering shaft using it to apply what I would call minimal leverage. It's obvious now that it is too weak of a leverage point. Keep in mind that I acknowledged that this was my fault, even thou I shouldn't have had to do that had the mount design been correct in the first place, so in this case, it is directly linked to Innovative. As for the tranny/drive shaft possibility, I think that is very remote, but considering some of the problems I've had with this car, it's not totally out of the question.

Personally, I'm leaning to pointing at the installation process, and primarily that of the rear mount. So we need help from everyone whose already got theirs installed to provide detains on what car they have, tranny, headers or not, and who did the install. That should help us narrow it down some, or even point to the problem.

As a final comment, does anyone have access to a repair manual so we can see what procedure it has?

Ruf

RUF87

1) Ruf - 02 TLS with XSP headers
Installed side and front mount myself at the same time - no noise problems - very mild vibration - did experience side mount alignment problems; installed rear mount myself a week later . . and immediately experienced major vibration problems.

2)mike - 3 mounts installed. STRONG vibrations through out the cabin while stopped. strong vibrations at low rpms. large increase in engine note at all rpms

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Nope, never had a big vibration issue.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I want to note too that it's important that everyone that ordered the mount kits call Tim from Innovative. Some of the side mounts are off since they came from different batches and he can get you out a new side mount. It sounds like Mike and Ruf may have the wrong side mount. The actual mount is slightly off causing the issue with the alignment of the third hole. Please call Tim to find out if you have the wrong side mount and he will replace it for you. They already have some of the new side mounts at the powdercoater.

714-524-5246

TCM 01 CL-S

Even those who don't seem to have an issue bolting up the side mount?

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

No, only those who do. But even before you try the install call up Innovative to make sure the mount you have is the one that wasn't made incorrectly. If you already installed it and it all lined up fine then you got the mount out of the correct batch. Innovative can't trace the batches so it has to be done on a case by case basis.

Silvaccordex01

iTrader: (2)

Do these new mounts resolve the issue with the main bolt not lining up correctly too? Because with the old design, you have to raise the engine quarter to half inch from stock for the bolt to line up correct and that puts lots of unneccesary strain on exhaust components and im sure lots of other stuff. Not to mention if you have P2R plenums they will rub on the front passenger corner on the hood liner.

Silvaccordex01

iTrader: (2)

Just spoke with Tim and what he said is you need to send in your old side mount, and they will send you the new mount when they are ready. He said, they fixed all the issues, but he was going to check with his engineer to make sure they fixed the height issue with the main bolt. But he said when they sent out the new mounts they will be "perfect" and fit like OEM with OEM engine placement

Mike

are they going to pay for the cost of removal/replacement as well? what if the old mount is shot? are we supposed to be down while they fix their mistake?
how long will be it before the new mount is ready? they don't have the best track record for releasing and shipping product.

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

alright i just pulled my side mount center bolt out and the engine dropped about 1/8". the picture below if of the aluminium bracket bolted on and the mount sitting flat against the body. it appears to only need to be raised about 1/8", not 1/4" - 1/2". i have the innovative mounts in the front and rear still so that also might make a difference.



I also called Tim this afternoon. He said to hold on to my mount for another 3-4 days, then call back. I asked if i would have to ship it back ever and he just said to wait. he also said that the fabrication flaw was with where the bottom bracket hits the round tube on the side mount, he said look and you will notice one side is set back 1/4". he said that 1/4" should be on the opposite side. he also mention that he was lowering the center of the bushing by 1/4" due to complaints that the mount raised the motor causing stress. this is in fact true but i believe it is less than 1/4" and hope he verifies this before proceeding. he noted that he doesn't have the capabilities to put an over sized insert into the bushing like the OEM mount has. he said that this new mount should fit just like the OEM. anyway that was my conversation with him today. i just hope these get verified before he makes 15-20 of them incorrectly again.

Mike

didn't anyone else from the LA/OC area buy the mounts???

Silvaccordex01

iTrader: (2)

That is exactly how far mine was off. it was off that much with the innovative fornt and rear and stock front and rear so the innovative mounts make no different on the height of that side one. THese mounts are supposed to keep our engines at OEM heights, not raise them up, so if the front or rear was raising it, they would be redesigning those as well. Did you send that pic to innovative distorted?

I was just guessing how far the bolt was off, so if distorted says 1/8 or so hes probably right. I dont do math or measurements very well. I was just trying to imply the center bolt was off, and that needed to be addressed in the mount redesign.

Sounds as if distored called after i did, because when i mentioned the center bolt he said he was unaware of that and going to check with his engineer. I will call back tomorrow to see if im still supposed to send back my old one

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

i did not send the any pictures yet. my best guess to where it was lining up was at the bottom of the bushing ring, which can be seen in the photo. i just measured this inner ring with the mount out and it is 1/8". i will write an email with links to this thread and with links to my photos. what they really need is someone to go by their shop before they send out another batch. "measure twice, cut once"

someone near their shop please help Mike out and pay innovative a visit!! Mike thanks for all your help out that way.

RUF87

I'm in 100% agreement with distortedolskool on this. I think that BOTH the standalone hole and the bushing hole are off.

I actually believe that the reason why some people are experiencing increased vibrations is due to the side mount's bushing hole being off. I think it results in increased tension on not only the side mount bushing, but puts a load on the front and rear as well.

We really need to get both hole alignments fixed, or I won't run it. I'll use the DIY poly filler approach.

Ruf

RUF87

Additional comments on what the excessive vibrations and or growling/roaring sound is caused by.

I drove the car about 20 miles today, which included a brief stint on the highway.

The growl/roar, as I call it is present under load at any speed, but decreases as the RPMs go above 4000. I also don't feel any sort of vibrations or shuddering that would be caused by a tranny or axel shaft being bent or under stress due to alignment. Also, as the axle speed increases, I believe that the harmonics created because of a problem would increase dramatically. So based on today's observations . . . I'm ruling out a problem with the tranny or any part of the drivetrain.

So . . . what do I think now okay, who cares

Seriously, I think it's exhaust harmonics . . . caused by the headers, more likely, or some other part of the exhaust system. As I started to deal with this butt ugly scenario being a reality, I listened more closely to the sound and it does sound like a cheap exhaust some of these kids buy to make their cars sound bad . . . if you will. It also makes sense because you do get a change in exhaust flow at different RPMs, thus resulting in different harmonic sounds. Remember some of the early knock-off headers had people complaining about resonance? Well, I think what we may end up having here is that, at least in my case, I bent the headers just enough to result in that nasty butt ugly resonance that at it's worst will vibrate the shit out of the car if you do the power brake test. Also, the bend may be just bad enough to cause the problem, but not bad enough for someone to tell by just looking at it.

Anyway, not what anyone of us want to hear, but I would like this theory to be tested . . . because this has got to me fixed.

I guess $350 or so to have them installed may have been a bargin . . . damn I hate learning when it costs so much. But I got to damn excited and go the girl pregnant . . . I mean screw up my car.

On the bright side, it's cheaper than getting the tranny fixed.

Ruf

distortedolskool

iTrader: (1)

ha RUF i was installing the OEM mount tonight and thought about doing that same mod worse case if the side mount saga continues. the front and rear mounts are very simplistic and appear to be hard to screw up the design on matching the OEM. the side mount is just going to have to be test fitted and verified before final fabrication.

i just wrote a page long email, with links included, explaining about bushing sleeve height and the 3 brackets hole alignment. i will post a response when i get one.

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

I'm scared to install mine. I don't want to start R&R with the poly mounts untill there is a final anwser to the problems some people are having. So there is a potential that all the mounts need to be redesigned because of height issues?????

Thanks to the guys that have the time and effort to install these and provide feedback! I am currently so busy at work and class at night the only chance I have is the weekend if weather permits.