peter_bigblock

Well, I finally got the friggin' bolt off. I didn't have the Honda crank pulley tool, and I didn't have a buddy, so I shoved a heavy screwdriver into the cooling fins of the brake rotor and let it wedge up against the brake caliper -- worked great to immobilize the drivetrain (6mt). I had the car up as high as I could get it on a jack stand and was pulling with my breaker bar and as much pipe as I could get on it and not hit the floor. Didn't work. So I put a small extension on, put the 19mm impact socket on the bolt, and put a 5-foot heavy PVC pipe over the breaker bar. Using a five-foot lever (!), it still took all of my weight to break the bolt loose (that's about 1000 lbs-ft). When it cracked loose, it sounded like a gun went off in the garage, and I thought for sure I'd busted another socket or the extension.

The rest of the job is pretty straightforward (the two bottom bolts on the alternator suck unless, as JTso said, you have small hands -- I don't). Job completed in about 3 hours. Great instructions, thanks Johnny!

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Congrats! I hope it was all worth it.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

for good DIY instructions and for another self-installed mod. I remember the first time I heard that pop sound (like a gun went off). I was like WTF? Did the head of this bolt just snap off? But from what I understand that bolt can withstand some serious tq.

peter_bigblock

I tightened it to 150 lb-ft (as high as my torque wrench goes) and I'm calling that good. It's a crank pulley, it turns an accessory belt and has a keyway in it to keep it from rotating on the crankshaft. I mean, really, how tight does the thing have to be? I, like JTso, was afraid of cracking the pulley any tighter than 150 lbs, which is damn tight.

Thanks, all, for the terrific instructions. It might be worth it for people doing this mod to buy a Honda crank tool (they're on eBay for around $50 shipped) and buy/sell through AZine from member to member -- basically, you get to use it for next to nothing and then sell it on or, if you're the last guy, put it back on eBay and you'll get a good bit, if not all, your money back.

That tool would help a lot from the standpoint of not having to twist all the slack out of the drivetrain before getting any serious torque on the crank bolt. (And, in the case of an automatic transmission, the crank tool is a must.)

jlukja

Sorry if it has already been asked and answered, but, what would a shop typically charge for an install?

TSX2345

I finally got mine installed yesterday! Acceleration is great

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

2-3 hours at whatever their labor rate is.

peter_bigblock

I'd like to say $800 because it would make me feel better about being drenched in sweat yesterday afternoon trying to overcome the Guiness world record for tight bolts. But I think $150 or so.

peter_bigblock

I drove the car this morning and tromped on it a few times to get the ECU thinking, my initial impression is similar to others' -- the motor winds up faster and more smoothly and seems to be in a generally bigger hurry. Since my ECU reset when the battery was disconnected, it'll take a few days for it to "re-learn" the effects of the CAI, header, cat, and now pulleys.

I'll dyno in the fall when ambient temps are comparable to my last dynos.

Tsx536

All I gotta say is congrats man! Do it yourself stuff can suck sometimes while you're in the middle of it, but once you finish it's a very rewarding feeling. Props to you for not quitting.

And at "I wish Honda had tightened my dashboard down this tight" and "...trying to overcome the Guiness world record for tight bolts"

jiggaman

sounds like a good mod, anybody notice negative aspects for this mod yet? besides the PITB bolt and needing a different belt?

peter_bigblock

Thanks! I just can't bring myself to admit defeat, sometimes to my detriment. I have to say, this mod really makes a difference. I was skeptical, for sure, but the motor really does spool up more quickly and smoothly and it feels like in the middle of the powerband it pulls noticeably harder. It'll be cool to see what my dyno looks like, but seat-of-the-pants it's a terrific addition to my i/h/c & hondata (and, of course, my diy grounding wires!).

Well worth the p.i.t.a.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

Just watch out for you spark plugs mike told me at e-shift, my grounding kit and coltage stabilizer from T1R might have been giving the spark plugs crap,


Then again when installed header, the shop that did the install blew out my sensor so my car was with out an air and fuel ratio sensor for weeks.

So he either concluded the spark plugs need to be changed or rip off that grounding kit. and add in octane cleaner for the fuel system.

I tried to dyno before pulleys and after... I lost alot of power due to that sensor, becasue in my dyno theres so much struggle in mid to redline.

The lowend its smooth.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Do you have the before and after dyno charts? If the sensor was out for weeks, then the engine wouldn't be running smoothly at all. So I don't see how the low end can be smooth.

minkl81

iTrader: (2)

so what does that mean in details? grounding kits & voltage stabilizer don't work along with UR pullies??

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

I have a dyno only after headers install (thats with the bad air fuel ratio sensor)

Then another dyno with no bad sensor. It was replaced but mike at e-shift said my car lost power only noticible in the mid to high range.

Low end it was very minimal I wish i had a better graph of it. Maybe the next dyno i'll ask him to print me a better sheet.

I replaced the plugs with densos, and let see how the dyno is this week.

peter_bigblock

I'm not clear what you're getting at -- I think I understand that a shop wrecked your o2 sensor installing headers and that messed up your a/f ratio. And the same guy (maybe?) told you to be careful about grounding kits because they will ruin your spark plugs? I don't get the connection between blown out o2 sensor, spark plug damage from your grounding kit/voltage stabilizer, and underdrive pulleys.

I have had no problems with my primary o2 sensor, header, plugs, grounding kit, or pulleys. It all works in perfect harmony, just like the Coke commercial wants it to.

minkl81

iTrader: (2)

i just got mine installed too with shorter belt JTso found. ecu might be readjusting since battery was unplugged for the install, so i didn't feel much gain from the pullies yet.

i got mine for $260 and only $60 to install. i expected higher install price and time, but they finished installing it less than a hour and thirty minutes.

hopefully i can feel some gain after the ecu adjustment.

jlukja

1. Is the gain derived from having less rotational mass?

2. Any negatives I need to be aware of? (reduced fuel economy, faster belt wear, etc.)

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

okay this midas shop did my headers installed, and screwed up the sensor. Which the guy at e-shift mike when i dynoed it predicted my spark plugs were burnt out becasue they weren't lighting enough juice.

And i replaced my plugs and they were brown, not completely burnt but pretty used up for 40k.

So i should have an accurate dyno somewhere this week.

for after pulleys...

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The gain is derived from less rotational mass, smaller crank pulley and larger accessory pulleys. Just picture changing gears on a bicycle. The smaller the front sprocket (crank pulley) the easier for the rider (engine) to pedal. The same effect on the the rear sprockets (accessory pulleys). The larger the rear gear means easier to pedal.

I don't think it affects fuel economy much. Lower battery charge rate was my primary concern but it doesn't seem to have any problem yet. My original belt did wear out pretty quickly but I think it's from lack of belt tension. A new belt in the correct length should take care of that.

Spoon

Or possibly burning up the alternator... Has anyone who's installed the pulleys also have a moderate to high powered audio system? After seeing JTso's voltage chart, it doesn't seem like a good combination, but curious to know if anyone has done it.

jlukja

Thanks JTso.

jlukja, who is looking forward to seeing the gains on a dyno.

peter_bigblock

Sorry, my audio system is stock (except for speakers) and will stay that way. I've been thinking about a Red-Top battery when my OEM conks out, but so far the underdrive alt pulley doesn't appear to have adverse effects (radio, headlights, etc.). Neither, for that matter, does the a/c, which blows ice-cold in 90-deg high humidity even at idle.

I'm looking forward to a dyno, temps are moderating here. Maybe another month or so.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The Ultra SS pulley set is an underdrive set up and is not recommended to be run with a stereo system over 600 watts RMS or if you are supercharged.

Mugenpwp

I've been running the pulleys for quite some time now since late May and put on that smaller belt that JTSO posted.

My mechanic said that the new belt was very tight, but fits snug. The oem belt was not worn out. The only difference i noticed is that there's no squeal with the AC on which i noticed with the OEM belt.

I will probably dyno the car in a few weeks. But for the 2months + with the oem belt there's no negative feedback with the pulleys at all.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The new belt may seem tight initially but it will loosen up after a few miles of driving. The tensioner will self adjust the belt tension.

peter_bigblock

After about a week my tensioner has adjusted to about the middle of the "mark" -- I'm using the shorter belt recommended by UR. Thanks again, Johnny!

KapVu

Jtso, after have the pulley for sometime now, do you notice any difference from the underdrive? Has anyone notice any problems driving underdrive? Thanks.

outersquare

have you considered getting an oil analysis to see if the removal of the rubber damper affects internal engine wear?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

What rubber damper?

outersquare

does your stock crank pulley have a rubber ring sandwiched in the middle of the pulley?

peter_bigblock

I don't have a "before pulleys" oil analysis, so I don't know that an analysis now would tell me anything about the change in engine wear. As the K24 is internally balanced, I don't know how any change in internal wear could take place. The rubber ring, I believe, damps engine vibrations being sent to the chassis.

Thinking about a bicycle, you'd be putting less stress on the cranks, chain, legs, etc. by using a slightly smaller, lighter front chain ring and larger, lighter rear sprocket gear. Not more stress.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The stock crank pulley does have a rubber ring on it but I believe it's mainly there to absorb the noise generated by the accessory pulleys like the alternator, PS, and AC. It's simply too small to do any serious vibration dampering. If you look at the opposite end of the crank - flywheel, there isn't any type of dampering devices to absorb the much heavier shock/vibration from the clutch engagement during gear shifting and clutch dumping.

I don't have a pre-pulley oil analysis for comparison.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

That is what you might want to call an elastomer. It is there to reduce NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness). Instead of re-writing this entire argument I will just post UR's response:

4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.

outersquare

A pre pulley analysis is not necessary, it will be apparently simply when wear metals/elements read high. Considering it's a $20 service, it's likely worthwhile.


I'm familiar with UR press material/statement and the theories, but nothing beats hard data.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I'm all for hard data and will give it a try. It would be interesting to see the result.

outersquare

I've been using blackstone labs and you can get freebie sample kit here

i have a couple analysis on a K24 accord with bolt ons as reference if need be.

jlukja

You guys can use my oil analysis as a reference if you want. I posted it in this thread (post #45).

drunkenbuda

Just ordered mine! Can't wait to see this thing in action.