Microsoft: Windows 8 News and Discussion Thread
Go Giants
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 70,003
Likes: 1,260
From: PA
I went here today: http://www.gadgetshowlive.net/page.cfm/link=1 and played with many Windows 8 devices including the surface. Lots of media coverage on them. Using Windows 8 on my Laptop for so long, I felt less comfortable with the touch on them and more with the mouse. That said, there were much better options then the Surface. Sony, Asus and even Dell had better RT and non RT hybrids and touch laptops that impressed me more for about the same price.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Yep. All is well again. I'm gonna hide the GPU drivers. I wasn't expecting it to update that as it usually doesn't in Windows 7. All I know is it installed some updates and borked my GPU drivers. At least I'm getting the hang of installing them. Lol.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Did you guys see the article yesterday about the Surface Pro getting half the battery of the RT despite having a bigger battery? Kinda disappointing especially at those price range:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/20174...urface-rt.html
The Surface Pro tablet with Windows 8 from Microsoft has only half of the battery life of the less expensive Surface with Windows RT, and less than the average battery life of Ultrabooks too.
Microsoft announced on Thursday that pricing of the Surface Pro will start at $899 for the 64 GB storage model and $999 for the 128 GB version, which includes a digitizer pen, although not a keyboard cover. The tablet is scheduled to go on sale in January, but Microsoft did not give an exact date.
The Surface with Windows RT (starting at $499 for 32GB model) and the forthcoming Surface with Windows 8 Pro have several other key differences. The Windows 8 Pro Surface is thicker and heavier, and runs on an Intel Core i5 processor with 4GB of RAM. It also has a higher-resolution 10.6-inch screen at 1920 by 1080 pixels.
The Intel chip is needed because the Surface Pro can run regular Windows software in Desktop mode, such as Photoshop or Firefox. The Surface RT is limited to Microsoft Office in Desktop mode and Windows Store apps.
That power-hungry processor provides another difference between the two tablets, which Microsoft revealed via its Twitter account.The better-equipped Surface Pro has only half the battery life of its sibling—meaning you would get around four and a half hours on a charge at most. This is despite the fact that the Windows 8 Pro Surface keeps connectivity off when hibernating to preserve battery, so it’s not an always-connected tablet.
Considered as a tablet, the Surface Pro costs more than a high-end tablet, and has half the battery life. Perhaps it's better to compare it with ultrabooks, which are more in the price and power range. But even in this case the Surface Pro falls a bit short of its rivals. In PCWorld’s tests, ultrabooks from Vizio, Asus, Acer and Dell have consistently passed five hours of battery life, with some going toward a six-hour average—around an hour more than the Surface Pro.
Microsoft announced on Thursday that pricing of the Surface Pro will start at $899 for the 64 GB storage model and $999 for the 128 GB version, which includes a digitizer pen, although not a keyboard cover. The tablet is scheduled to go on sale in January, but Microsoft did not give an exact date.
The Surface with Windows RT (starting at $499 for 32GB model) and the forthcoming Surface with Windows 8 Pro have several other key differences. The Windows 8 Pro Surface is thicker and heavier, and runs on an Intel Core i5 processor with 4GB of RAM. It also has a higher-resolution 10.6-inch screen at 1920 by 1080 pixels.
The Intel chip is needed because the Surface Pro can run regular Windows software in Desktop mode, such as Photoshop or Firefox. The Surface RT is limited to Microsoft Office in Desktop mode and Windows Store apps.
That power-hungry processor provides another difference between the two tablets, which Microsoft revealed via its Twitter account.The better-equipped Surface Pro has only half the battery life of its sibling—meaning you would get around four and a half hours on a charge at most. This is despite the fact that the Windows 8 Pro Surface keeps connectivity off when hibernating to preserve battery, so it’s not an always-connected tablet.
Considered as a tablet, the Surface Pro costs more than a high-end tablet, and has half the battery life. Perhaps it's better to compare it with ultrabooks, which are more in the price and power range. But even in this case the Surface Pro falls a bit short of its rivals. In PCWorld’s tests, ultrabooks from Vizio, Asus, Acer and Dell have consistently passed five hours of battery life, with some going toward a six-hour average—around an hour more than the Surface Pro.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Can anyone confirm something for me? I started to attempt to use the multi-tasking view where I have two apps simultaneously running in Metro Mode. (These are the only two apps running by the way with Desktop Mode as usual) Any way, let's say I have MetroTwit in the 1/4th Window View and the ESPN App on the 3/4th view. I watch a video in the ESPN App in fullscreen, the whole setup just lags! Swiping up and down my timeline lags and viewing the video just plain sucks. As in, skipping video frames almost like a slideshow. If I minimize the video to a regular video its fine though so I'm guessing the video is not making use of Hardware Acceleration of my GPU. And yes, I am running on my GPU as I can tell from the fan and heat and also in the Catalyst Software. I was able to reproduce this in the Sports, News app, and the Reddit to Go app as well.
I tested it running a 1080p video in YouTube in 3/4th Windows Mode and 1/4th Metro Mode running MetroTwit and it works fine. So there must be some buggy implementation in Metro Mode at the moment that causes it to lag like crazy when watching a video and running a separate app. Its very detrimental to the whole experience along with the app crashes. My laptop has an i5 at 2.5 GHz and 8 GB of RAM so it should be able to handle these things just fine. Maybe its an anomaly on my system.
I tested it running a 1080p video in YouTube in 3/4th Windows Mode and 1/4th Metro Mode running MetroTwit and it works fine. So there must be some buggy implementation in Metro Mode at the moment that causes it to lag like crazy when watching a video and running a separate app. Its very detrimental to the whole experience along with the app crashes. My laptop has an i5 at 2.5 GHz and 8 GB of RAM so it should be able to handle these things just fine. Maybe its an anomaly on my system.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Okay I can reproduce the lag simply by watching a video in fullscreen and it works fine with hardware acceleration and then I try to minimize it and then boom just lag. This is without the multitasking view. Its just lag galore. I have to kill the app to get my system back into normal speed. If you guys can try it in Reddit to Go and go to r/Videos and watch any video in there at Fullscreen then bring it down to normal size. Its really not usable at all for me at this point. I'm trying to like Metro but this is hindering my experience greatly at the moment.
Thread Starter
Sanest Florida Man
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 46,022
Likes: 11,790
From: Florida
Nope, it's you and you're shitty drivers. Metro twit on the side and ESPN watching a video in full-ish screen works fine for me. I bet your shitty drivers are whats causing all the apps to crash too.
Not having any issues lagging with my core i7 860 8gb RAM, mediocre nvidia GPU, etc.
Not having any issues lagging with my core i7 860 8gb RAM, mediocre nvidia GPU, etc.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Its so weird. It only happens in Metro apps. I can reproduce it every time. Its almost like a memory leak that goes away after killing the app. Windows Mode everything works great as usual. I guess I'll have to just use Windows Mode primarily.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Okay it looks like you may be right. I switched to my Intel GPU and couldn't reproduce it. Damn so many issues with the Switchable graphics. I guess if you guys have one, stay away from Windows 8 for now. Too many damn issues that I wish I knew beforehand.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Yup. No problems there. It really only happens in the Metro Apps. I am running an older driver so maybe that's why. There's two newer drivers but one is still beta and the other my brightness won't work although I just found a possible fix. Gonna try to update to the latest beta and try the brightness fix.
I think I'm gonna go downgrade for the sake of brightness control.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 22,909
Likes: 388
From: OR
If I wanted to roll back to Win 7 from 8, what would I have to do? Laptop came with 7 and I put 8 on it a couple weeks later. I like things about it but I am having issues with LR4, and I couldn't get Chrome to run properly on it. It would load pages where the formatting would be all jacked. Then I would refresh and it would load properly. It was doing that all the time, with FF too. Then I got rid of Chrome and FF and started using IE. It works fine but I don't like it as well as either of the others. Not sure what to do but I liked my new laptop a lot better when it was running 7.
Go Giants
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 70,003
Likes: 1,260
From: PA
If I wanted to roll back to Win 7 from 8, what would I have to do? Laptop came with 7 and I put 8 on it a couple weeks later. I like things about it but I am having issues with LR4, and I couldn't get Chrome to run properly on it. It would load pages where the formatting would be all jacked. Then I would refresh and it would load properly. It was doing that all the time, with FF too. Then I got rid of Chrome and FF and started using IE. It works fine but I don't like it as well as either of the others. Not sure what to do but I liked my new laptop a lot better when it was running 7.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,521
Likes: 1,824
From: MAGA country
If I wanted to roll back to Win 7 from 8, what would I have to do? Laptop came with 7 and I put 8 on it a couple weeks later. I like things about it but I am having issues with LR4, and I couldn't get Chrome to run properly on it. It would load pages where the formatting would be all jacked. Then I would refresh and it would load properly. It was doing that all the time, with FF too. Then I got rid of Chrome and FF and started using IE. It works fine but I don't like it as well as either of the others. Not sure what to do but I liked my new laptop a lot better when it was running 7.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,521
Likes: 1,824
From: MAGA country
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 12,521
Likes: 1,824
From: MAGA country
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
I'm not sure what happened but my Metro apps just stopped working today after I did a Windows update. I launch the app then it just hangs like its trying to load and nothing happens. I did a quick Google search and it seems to be a common problem. Really, wth.
I ended up doing a refresh but man what a hassle this "update" has been. I've used all Windows OS for as long as I can remember but this has given me the most trouble so far.
I ended up doing a refresh but man what a hassle this "update" has been. I've used all Windows OS for as long as I can remember but this has given me the most trouble so far.
Thread Starter
Sanest Florida Man
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 46,022
Likes: 11,790
From: Florida
You're using an unsupported AV and beta GPU drivers. You don't complain about android when one your 3rd party keyboards doesn't work on a version of android it doesn't officially support yet, do you?
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Actually I would and do. 
But that's besides the point. I actually had to do another clean reinstall yesterday (5th one of Windows 8 if you want to know) because after updating to the beta ATI Drivers my install went to crap. My HDMI drivers wouldn't update, even tried manually, so I decided to scrap my install and start all over again. Luckily all of my stuff was still in my external so it was a quick wipe and install.
After the 5th clean install and back to the working drivers WITHOUT Avira installed, I got an update this afternoon. All my Metro apps broke for no reason when they were working fine prior to the update. I scoured the internet for info and its a lot more common than I expected. All happened after an update and all without resolution but a factory reset. So no, I'm not going to sugar coat it because I've used almost every iteration of Windows and this has given me the most headaches so far. I just want to use it for crying out loud.
But that's besides the point. I actually had to do another clean reinstall yesterday (5th one of Windows 8 if you want to know) because after updating to the beta ATI Drivers my install went to crap. My HDMI drivers wouldn't update, even tried manually, so I decided to scrap my install and start all over again. Luckily all of my stuff was still in my external so it was a quick wipe and install. After the 5th clean install and back to the working drivers WITHOUT Avira installed, I got an update this afternoon. All my Metro apps broke for no reason when they were working fine prior to the update. I scoured the internet for info and its a lot more common than I expected. All happened after an update and all without resolution but a factory reset. So no, I'm not going to sugar coat it because I've used almost every iteration of Windows and this has given me the most headaches so far. I just want to use it for crying out loud.
Last edited by CGFebTSX04; Dec 2, 2012 at 12:43 AM.
Thread Starter
Sanest Florida Man
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 46,022
Likes: 11,790
From: Florida
Yes they do. It's not 100% though. Bootkits (infected bootsector) should not work though on a UEFI system with secure boot (all new windows 8 PCs have this). Then there's measured boot which requires a TPM chip which would theoretically stop rootkits in shady drivers, dlls, etc that run at boot but slows down boot time.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx
Windows 8 defeated 85% of malware out of the box
http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8...out-of-the-box
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx
Windows 8 defeated 85% of malware out of the box
Security-wise, things don't look so bad for Windows 8 and the new measures implemented by Microsoft. Security firm and anti-virus maker BitDefender recently performed a number of tests on the stock, out-of-the-box Windows 8 configuration and concluded that just 15% of "the 100 malware families most used by cyber criminals this year" managed to infect the system.
Of course as BitDefender makes anti-virus products they tried to spin this by saying Windows 8 is "prone to infection by leading malware threats", but really, blocking 85% of threats with just Windows Defender enabled shows that Microsoft's in-house and bundled solution is quite effective. BitDefender tested 385 of the most popular malware samples, and 61 of those infected the system.
Windows Defender in Windows 8 does a decent job
According to Softpedia, the same tests were run on stock Windows 7 and 262 pieces of malware successfully executed malicious code (68%), which is considerably higher because Windows 7 does not have the improved version of Defender installed. One can then conclude that in a stock configuration, Windows 8 is much more secure than Windows 7.
Of course it should be noted that if you disable Defender to bring your system to the same level as Windows 7, the results are going to be significantly worse, but still slightly better than Windows 7. 234 of the 385 samples ran perfectly (60.8%) with Defender disabled, while the remaining failed to execute for numerous reasons, and out of the failed executions only seven were stopped by user account control.
Now while 85% is a great effort by Microsoft and their in-built Defender, it is of course still not perfect as it didn't block everything and let 61 pieces of malware infect the system; this value should be noticeably less should you choose to purchase a third-party anti-virus software. But the improvements to out-of-the-box security, blocking 85% of malware in Windows 8 as opposed to 32% in Windows 7, should definitely be noted as good work by Microsoft.
Of course as BitDefender makes anti-virus products they tried to spin this by saying Windows 8 is "prone to infection by leading malware threats", but really, blocking 85% of threats with just Windows Defender enabled shows that Microsoft's in-house and bundled solution is quite effective. BitDefender tested 385 of the most popular malware samples, and 61 of those infected the system.
Windows Defender in Windows 8 does a decent job
According to Softpedia, the same tests were run on stock Windows 7 and 262 pieces of malware successfully executed malicious code (68%), which is considerably higher because Windows 7 does not have the improved version of Defender installed. One can then conclude that in a stock configuration, Windows 8 is much more secure than Windows 7.
Of course it should be noted that if you disable Defender to bring your system to the same level as Windows 7, the results are going to be significantly worse, but still slightly better than Windows 7. 234 of the 385 samples ran perfectly (60.8%) with Defender disabled, while the remaining failed to execute for numerous reasons, and out of the failed executions only seven were stopped by user account control.
Now while 85% is a great effort by Microsoft and their in-built Defender, it is of course still not perfect as it didn't block everything and let 61 pieces of malware infect the system; this value should be noticeably less should you choose to purchase a third-party anti-virus software. But the improvements to out-of-the-box security, blocking 85% of malware in Windows 8 as opposed to 32% in Windows 7, should definitely be noted as good work by Microsoft.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Wtf. Its happening again. This time some of my Metro apps are working fine and the other half aren't working. MetroTwit, Reddit to Go and Facbook Touch still work fine. It first started with Milligram not wanting to work. It works fine if I'm not logged into my Instagram account and I can explore the photos and use the app fine. Once I'm logged in, nothing but crashes. I'm using the Stable ATI Drivers and no Anti-virus again. The only major thing that happened was I installed the Media Center Pack but that has nothing to do with it.My Bing Sports app won't update its content and I've noticed it hasn't updated since 12/1/2012 according to the little ticker. My Accuweather stopped opening and so did my Bing News app. Both just crash after attempting to open. Error log shows "[name of app]...did not launch within its allotted time." I don't know why it keeps destroying my Metro apps. It was working fine this morning and a few reboots later it stopped working. Uninstalling/Reinstalling it does nothing. So irritating that I'm probably gonna have to do another refresh/reset to fix this. There's no way I can commit to buying any apps cause I don't know just when they might break on me.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
Nope. Desktop mode works perfectly. Hard drive is okay. No speed degradation that I'm aware of and no ticking sounds. I replaced the hard drive myself a few months ago and Windows 7 worked fine on it. I haven't done a full diagnostic test but I'm pretty sure its not the hard drive. Its weird cause some of the Metro apps are working while the Bing News, Sports, Milligram don't work. I also installed another Instagram app and that failed to launch even though its the first time I tried installing the app. I installed Minesweeper and Solitaire and those worked perfectly fine. Doing a refresh right now because I can't figure it out. I even turned off the built-in Windows Firewall and its the same.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
I know what I want for Christmas
Safety Car
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes: 295
From: LA, CA
So I've been using the Logitech T650 with Windows 8 since I got it yesterday and the experience just feels much more cohesive with the Touchpad. Maybe its the same feel that the hybrid touchscreen laptops bring to Windows 8 but I haven't the chance to use one yet. With the normal mouse and touchpad on my laptop, using Windows 8 was just lacking a certain something. The Touchpad just brings it all together IMO.
Will it totally replace the mouse? Depends on what you're going to do with your computer. If you're thinking of playing FPS games or any game in particular, then no. The mouse will and is still superior to the Touchpad in that aspect. For graphics design? With my limited run with Photoshop, the mouse is still more precise and easier to use. With that said, its great for using in the Metro apps because of the gestures it brings. It works pretty great in almost all the Metro apps I used and most especially just when browsing the internet with it because its much more natural. My laptop got the updated Synaptics drivers with gestures but the real estate on my laptop's mousepad is so small compared to the Logitech its fairly difficult to use them.
With all of that said, the Logitech T650 is still missing some key features. The one that stood out to me most was the Edge Scrolling. When you place your finger at the border of the touchpad, it just stops moving the mouse. This becomes a pain in the butt when transferring files to folders, highlighting text. You start off from one corner of the screen and can't make it in one drag so you have to pick up your finger and start the drag again. There's no option in the Setpoint drivers for this feature although it could be easily updated in the future the same way they just added double tap and hold to drag. There are ways to make it click at the bottom left and right for the left and right click, respectively, but you don't need them because you can do a regular tap or two finger tap for right click. As far as the gestures it is missing the drag down from top to close the app. You actually have to grab the top corner and drag it down to close. However, the other gestures are there:
Drag from top = Bring out extra menus
Drag from left = Change apps
Drag from left and drag back really quick = Pin app to the left side and bring out the quick app changer
Drag from right = Charms bar
Three fingers down = Desktop
Three fingers up = Start Menu
Three fingers left = Back
Three fingers right = Forward
Four fingers up = Maximize current window
Four fingers down = Minimize current window
Now, I wish they gave you the ability to customize your own gestures but at the moment it isn't possible easily. (There's probably a way but I haven't gone too deep to find it. Probably an xml file that needs to be changed in the Program Files folder like with the Logitech mices.) It messes up my gestures on my Android devices cause I actually have three fingers down = back on my Android devices and I wish we could do a Four Pinch = Home like in the Macs and on my Android devices.
So would I recommend this device? For $80, maybe. Its a little expensive. If you can get a deal on it like I did, then most definitely. The sale is still going on up to today I believe at Staples. It won't entirely replace the mouse but if you want a touch like feel for Windows 8 and use the Metro apps a lot then it works excellent. The battery is supposed to last a week and is rechargeable like their regular mices so there shouldn't be any battery issues there. The gestures thing can be easily fixed with updates and I hope someone comes out with an app that over takes the gestures like they did with ubermouse program for Logitech Mices. Its only a matter of time before that happens.
P.S. It doesn't work with stock Android and AOSP based ROMs. Those are the only two I tried. It detects it but it thinks its a keyboard so no click registers. Its most likely because it uses the unified Logitech dongle that works for mices, keyboards and all their other peripheries. It doesn't work with a direct USB connection either to OTG cable. It can track the multifingers but nothing happens. Only the cursor moves and that's all it can do with Android. The Magic Trackpad from Apple works, complete with multitouch. However, Apple has yet to release drivers for Windows 8 so keep that in mind. I'm guessing someone needs to compile the drivers for the Touchpad to work with Android but since this product is so new, no one has done it yet. If I knew how to program, I'd do it. Lol.
Will it totally replace the mouse? Depends on what you're going to do with your computer. If you're thinking of playing FPS games or any game in particular, then no. The mouse will and is still superior to the Touchpad in that aspect. For graphics design? With my limited run with Photoshop, the mouse is still more precise and easier to use. With that said, its great for using in the Metro apps because of the gestures it brings. It works pretty great in almost all the Metro apps I used and most especially just when browsing the internet with it because its much more natural. My laptop got the updated Synaptics drivers with gestures but the real estate on my laptop's mousepad is so small compared to the Logitech its fairly difficult to use them.
With all of that said, the Logitech T650 is still missing some key features. The one that stood out to me most was the Edge Scrolling. When you place your finger at the border of the touchpad, it just stops moving the mouse. This becomes a pain in the butt when transferring files to folders, highlighting text. You start off from one corner of the screen and can't make it in one drag so you have to pick up your finger and start the drag again. There's no option in the Setpoint drivers for this feature although it could be easily updated in the future the same way they just added double tap and hold to drag. There are ways to make it click at the bottom left and right for the left and right click, respectively, but you don't need them because you can do a regular tap or two finger tap for right click. As far as the gestures it is missing the drag down from top to close the app. You actually have to grab the top corner and drag it down to close. However, the other gestures are there:
Drag from top = Bring out extra menus
Drag from left = Change apps
Drag from left and drag back really quick = Pin app to the left side and bring out the quick app changer
Drag from right = Charms bar
Three fingers down = Desktop
Three fingers up = Start Menu
Three fingers left = Back
Three fingers right = Forward
Four fingers up = Maximize current window
Four fingers down = Minimize current window
Now, I wish they gave you the ability to customize your own gestures but at the moment it isn't possible easily. (There's probably a way but I haven't gone too deep to find it. Probably an xml file that needs to be changed in the Program Files folder like with the Logitech mices.) It messes up my gestures on my Android devices cause I actually have three fingers down = back on my Android devices and I wish we could do a Four Pinch = Home like in the Macs and on my Android devices.
So would I recommend this device? For $80, maybe. Its a little expensive. If you can get a deal on it like I did, then most definitely. The sale is still going on up to today I believe at Staples. It won't entirely replace the mouse but if you want a touch like feel for Windows 8 and use the Metro apps a lot then it works excellent. The battery is supposed to last a week and is rechargeable like their regular mices so there shouldn't be any battery issues there. The gestures thing can be easily fixed with updates and I hope someone comes out with an app that over takes the gestures like they did with ubermouse program for Logitech Mices. Its only a matter of time before that happens.
P.S. It doesn't work with stock Android and AOSP based ROMs. Those are the only two I tried. It detects it but it thinks its a keyboard so no click registers. Its most likely because it uses the unified Logitech dongle that works for mices, keyboards and all their other peripheries. It doesn't work with a direct USB connection either to OTG cable. It can track the multifingers but nothing happens. Only the cursor moves and that's all it can do with Android. The Magic Trackpad from Apple works, complete with multitouch. However, Apple has yet to release drivers for Windows 8 so keep that in mind. I'm guessing someone needs to compile the drivers for the Touchpad to work with Android but since this product is so new, no one has done it yet. If I knew how to program, I'd do it. Lol.
Last edited by CGFebTSX04; Dec 8, 2012 at 03:16 PM.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 22,909
Likes: 388
From: OR
Factory restored my computer back to Win 7 last night. So far so good. Chrome now works properly. I have installed lightroom but haven't edited or exported any photos yet. Back to finger scrolling in the proper direction (imo). Touch pad seems to work better. 8 turned out to be a big waste of time and $14.99 in my case.