More NBA Offseason News
07-09-2004, 09:42 AM
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More NBA Offseason News
He has a verbal agreement and then reneges 
for bigger money from the Utah Jazz.
Cleveland Cavaliers Bamboozled by Boozer
By Chad Ford
ESPN Insider
Money. Greed. Betrayal. Revenge. $52 million wedding gifts.
We had it all on Thursday. The NBA game itself may have enough problems to make it uninteresting to some. But you don't have a pulse if you haven't been enthralled with this summer's NBA free-agent wooing process. It's just a matter of time before NBATV gets involved in this thing and runs daily episodes in the morning to compete with the Days of Our Lives.
Soap opera writers can't make this stuff up.
On Wednesday morning Insider reported that Cavs GM Jim Paxson should be sweating bullets over the status of Carlos Boozer. By the afternoon, Insider was the first to report that the Jazz were on the verge of offering Boozer a six-year, $68 million deal that he would likely accept.
By Thursday night, Boozer had taken the money, the Cavs were essentially calling Boozer a liar, Paxson was sweating his job and Jazz GM Kevin O'Connor was cementing his status as the front-runner for executive of the year.
The Jazz's deal to Boozer may set the Cavs back years. I say "may" because the Cavs may not be out of this thing yet. They still have until July 29th to try to clear enough cap space to match the Jazz's offer. It's the only way for the Cavs. Talk of arbitration, lawsuits and the like are pointless.
When Paxson agreed to not pick up the team's third-year option for Boozer, he opened the door to something like this. Sources claim that it was Boozer's agent, Rob Pelinka, who asked the Cavs to not pick up the option. They also claim that there was a verbal deal in place with the Cavs for Boozer to sign a six-year, $41 million deal with the Cavs.
Carlos Boozer
Power Forward
Cleveland Cavaliers
Profile
2003-2004 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
75 15.5 11.4 2.0 .523 .768
The problem for Paxson is that there's no way to enforce it. If it was agreed to before July 1st, then it was an illegal agreement that would have caused the Cavs to be disciplined by the league and would've been voided. If it was agreed to after July 1st, it wasn't binding. Nothing is binding until the player movement moratorium is lifted on July 14th and players can begin officially signing contracts and offer sheets.
Can they clear the cap space? It's unlikely. Assuming there's a $46 million cap, the Cavs are roughly $2.5 million under the cap after signing Luke Jackson. Sources told Insider that the Jazz's offer sheet with Boozer is flexible enough that the team can and likely will front load the contract and then have it go down in the remaining years. When you add in a signing bonuses and the like, the Cavs may have to clear up to an additional $10 million to get far enough under the cap to match Boozer's offer.
To get that far under, the Cavs will have to try to trade several of their players to teams under the cap. Teams like the Hawks, Bobcats, Nuggets and possibly the Clippers still have money under the cap. The team could dangle players like Tony Battie, Dajuan Wagner and Kedrick Brown to those teams in an effort to clear the space. But it won't be easy. The Cavs cannot offer a first-round pick under league rules because they've already traded away their conditional first-round pick for next year (the Bobcats actually own it). That means they have to convince teams to take these players off their hands for nothing.
Just as importantly, do the Cavs even want to gut their team to bring back Boozer? After his betrayal, does the team really want to re-sign him? Boozer will be enemy No. 1 in Cleveland. Trading away all of the assets will set the club back anyway. In other words, the Cavs are damned if they do, damned if they don't with Boozer at this point.
If Pelinka and Boozer did verbally promise the Cavs that they would re-sign, then what they did was despicable. But I haven't talked to a GM in the league who would've opened the door the way Paxson did. GMs uniformly agreed on July 1st, when news first broke that the Cavs had agreed to not pick up the option, that it was a bad idea.
Verbal, wink-wink deals go on all the time in the NBA. But they rarely happen with an asset as valuable as Boozer -- especially when the Cavs were so limited in what they could do if the plan backfired. And let's stop the talk about how benevolent the Cavs were being by agreeing to pay Boozer more this year. They knew that they were getting him to agree to a long-term, below-market deal for added security next season. They had powerful financial motivations to let Boozer out and lock him up at a cheaper rate. No one in Cleveland wanted to pay him what the Jazz eventually offered.
"This is one of the biggest blunders I've ever seen in the business," one GM told Insider. "You've got to protect your assets. As a GM, I just don't know how I could explain this to my owner. I think the whole thing is depressing. It's tough to know who to trust these days. My guess is that this deal will fundamentally change the way we do business in the NBA. Teams don't like the 14-day waiting period because things like this can happen. I think you'll see a push to get rid of it. Had the Cavs been able to have deal in place for Boozer to sign on July 1 at 12:01 a.m, this never would've happened. The long wait opened the door."
Paxson may not be at fault the way Boozer and Pelink are here. But the bottom line is that he was the guy who opened the door to Boozer's exodus. If Boozer leaves, the franchise will be set back years. After making a promising run at the playoffs last season, the team suddenly is without a power forward, period. Let alone the one they had who averaged 11.4 rpg.
After the numerous mistakes Paxson has made in the draft (Trajan Langdon, DeSagana Diop and Dajuan Wagner to name three), in free agency (remember Ira Newble and Kevin Ollie's big deals last year) and trades (Andre Miller for Darius Miles, who was then traded for Jeff McInnis), how can Gordon Gund keep him in Cleveland? No one should be fired for one mistake, especially one that's caused by deceit and betrayl from another party. But when you look at the litany of problems Paxson has been part of Cleveland, he shouldn't be fired. He should do the right thing and resign.
As for the Jazz? The Boozer signing tops off a best-case scenario summer for the Jazz. The team needed bigs and it added three very promising big guys -- Boozer, Mehmet Okur and rookie Kris Humphries. They needed a potential star in the backcourt and got one in rookie Kirk Snyder. The Jazz neeeded to make these signings this summer. With Andrei Kirilenko looking for a huge extension this fall, this was Utah's last shot to spend a ton of money in free agency.
The Jazz have made some serious upgrades this summer and all of them look like perfect fits for Jerry Sloan's system. Barring injuries, I think the Jazz are a lock for the playoffs next season and could cause some damage in the West. In my mind, Kevin O'Connor has got to be the front-runner for executive of the year. Given the limitations in place in Utah, he's really made the most of what he can do.
for bigger money from the Utah Jazz. Cleveland Cavaliers Bamboozled by Boozer
By Chad Ford
ESPN Insider
Money. Greed. Betrayal. Revenge. $52 million wedding gifts.
We had it all on Thursday. The NBA game itself may have enough problems to make it uninteresting to some. But you don't have a pulse if you haven't been enthralled with this summer's NBA free-agent wooing process. It's just a matter of time before NBATV gets involved in this thing and runs daily episodes in the morning to compete with the Days of Our Lives.
Soap opera writers can't make this stuff up.
On Wednesday morning Insider reported that Cavs GM Jim Paxson should be sweating bullets over the status of Carlos Boozer. By the afternoon, Insider was the first to report that the Jazz were on the verge of offering Boozer a six-year, $68 million deal that he would likely accept.
By Thursday night, Boozer had taken the money, the Cavs were essentially calling Boozer a liar, Paxson was sweating his job and Jazz GM Kevin O'Connor was cementing his status as the front-runner for executive of the year.
The Jazz's deal to Boozer may set the Cavs back years. I say "may" because the Cavs may not be out of this thing yet. They still have until July 29th to try to clear enough cap space to match the Jazz's offer. It's the only way for the Cavs. Talk of arbitration, lawsuits and the like are pointless.
When Paxson agreed to not pick up the team's third-year option for Boozer, he opened the door to something like this. Sources claim that it was Boozer's agent, Rob Pelinka, who asked the Cavs to not pick up the option. They also claim that there was a verbal deal in place with the Cavs for Boozer to sign a six-year, $41 million deal with the Cavs.
Carlos Boozer
Power Forward
Cleveland Cavaliers
Profile
2003-2004 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
75 15.5 11.4 2.0 .523 .768
The problem for Paxson is that there's no way to enforce it. If it was agreed to before July 1st, then it was an illegal agreement that would have caused the Cavs to be disciplined by the league and would've been voided. If it was agreed to after July 1st, it wasn't binding. Nothing is binding until the player movement moratorium is lifted on July 14th and players can begin officially signing contracts and offer sheets.
Can they clear the cap space? It's unlikely. Assuming there's a $46 million cap, the Cavs are roughly $2.5 million under the cap after signing Luke Jackson. Sources told Insider that the Jazz's offer sheet with Boozer is flexible enough that the team can and likely will front load the contract and then have it go down in the remaining years. When you add in a signing bonuses and the like, the Cavs may have to clear up to an additional $10 million to get far enough under the cap to match Boozer's offer.
To get that far under, the Cavs will have to try to trade several of their players to teams under the cap. Teams like the Hawks, Bobcats, Nuggets and possibly the Clippers still have money under the cap. The team could dangle players like Tony Battie, Dajuan Wagner and Kedrick Brown to those teams in an effort to clear the space. But it won't be easy. The Cavs cannot offer a first-round pick under league rules because they've already traded away their conditional first-round pick for next year (the Bobcats actually own it). That means they have to convince teams to take these players off their hands for nothing.
Just as importantly, do the Cavs even want to gut their team to bring back Boozer? After his betrayal, does the team really want to re-sign him? Boozer will be enemy No. 1 in Cleveland. Trading away all of the assets will set the club back anyway. In other words, the Cavs are damned if they do, damned if they don't with Boozer at this point.
If Pelinka and Boozer did verbally promise the Cavs that they would re-sign, then what they did was despicable. But I haven't talked to a GM in the league who would've opened the door the way Paxson did. GMs uniformly agreed on July 1st, when news first broke that the Cavs had agreed to not pick up the option, that it was a bad idea.
Verbal, wink-wink deals go on all the time in the NBA. But they rarely happen with an asset as valuable as Boozer -- especially when the Cavs were so limited in what they could do if the plan backfired. And let's stop the talk about how benevolent the Cavs were being by agreeing to pay Boozer more this year. They knew that they were getting him to agree to a long-term, below-market deal for added security next season. They had powerful financial motivations to let Boozer out and lock him up at a cheaper rate. No one in Cleveland wanted to pay him what the Jazz eventually offered.
"This is one of the biggest blunders I've ever seen in the business," one GM told Insider. "You've got to protect your assets. As a GM, I just don't know how I could explain this to my owner. I think the whole thing is depressing. It's tough to know who to trust these days. My guess is that this deal will fundamentally change the way we do business in the NBA. Teams don't like the 14-day waiting period because things like this can happen. I think you'll see a push to get rid of it. Had the Cavs been able to have deal in place for Boozer to sign on July 1 at 12:01 a.m, this never would've happened. The long wait opened the door."
Paxson may not be at fault the way Boozer and Pelink are here. But the bottom line is that he was the guy who opened the door to Boozer's exodus. If Boozer leaves, the franchise will be set back years. After making a promising run at the playoffs last season, the team suddenly is without a power forward, period. Let alone the one they had who averaged 11.4 rpg.
After the numerous mistakes Paxson has made in the draft (Trajan Langdon, DeSagana Diop and Dajuan Wagner to name three), in free agency (remember Ira Newble and Kevin Ollie's big deals last year) and trades (Andre Miller for Darius Miles, who was then traded for Jeff McInnis), how can Gordon Gund keep him in Cleveland? No one should be fired for one mistake, especially one that's caused by deceit and betrayl from another party. But when you look at the litany of problems Paxson has been part of Cleveland, he shouldn't be fired. He should do the right thing and resign.
As for the Jazz? The Boozer signing tops off a best-case scenario summer for the Jazz. The team needed bigs and it added three very promising big guys -- Boozer, Mehmet Okur and rookie Kris Humphries. They needed a potential star in the backcourt and got one in rookie Kirk Snyder. The Jazz neeeded to make these signings this summer. With Andrei Kirilenko looking for a huge extension this fall, this was Utah's last shot to spend a ton of money in free agency.
The Jazz have made some serious upgrades this summer and all of them look like perfect fits for Jerry Sloan's system. Barring injuries, I think the Jazz are a lock for the playoffs next season and could cause some damage in the West. In my mind, Kevin O'Connor has got to be the front-runner for executive of the year. Given the limitations in place in Utah, he's really made the most of what he can do.
07-09-2004, 10:39 AM
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I thought Cavs decided not to pick up the 3rd year option so that they can match any offer Boozer receives from other teams... What's the point if they only have 2.5 mil under the cap???
07-09-2004, 11:05 AM
#4
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like we said before... this is going to be a hella weird off season...
I guess now we know why K Mart cancelled his trip to Utah yesterday
Junkster, who wouldn't mind K Mart as a Nuggie
I guess now we know why K Mart cancelled his trip to Utah yesterday
Junkster, who wouldn't mind K Mart as a Nuggie
07-09-2004, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sipark
I thought Cavs decided not to pick up the 3rd year option so that they can match any offer Boozer receives from other teams... What's the point if they only have 2.5 mil under the cap???
07-09-2004, 11:21 AM
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I think alot of teams and analysts are forgetting that the Nuggies are only second in the cap room race...
Utah is first with the most cap room... get ready for more moves.
Junkster, who think Utah's got some good things going for them
Utah is first with the most cap room... get ready for more moves.
Junkster, who think Utah's got some good things going for them
07-09-2004, 11:24 AM
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It looks as if Utah is restocking and getting ready for another run in the West. I still wish that they would relinquish their rights to the Jazz nickname and give it back to the New Orleans Hornets. Why not change their name to the Salt Pioneers or something???
Trending Topics
07-10-2004, 12:38 AM
#11
Drifting
Originally Posted by accsuperstar
welcome to the steve nash club carlos boozer
07-10-2004, 03:13 AM
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boozer agent = smart. Lets see what is 3-5 percent of boozer's 68 million dollar contract. Now he's agent can buy another 360 modena. The cav's on the other hand stupid, after the kind of numbers boozer put up do they really think that no one is gona pay more then 40 million over 5 years for his services, retards. And do they really think in this day and age of bling bling boozer would take a 20 million dollar pay cut just to keep his word and stay with the Cavs. you can't blame boozer in this case though, he worked for his money and he deserves it, DON"T HATE THE PLAYER HATE THE GAME
07-10-2004, 07:10 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by ks112
boozer agent = smart. Lets see what is 3-5 percent of boozer's 68 million dollar contract. Now he's agent can buy another 360 modena. The cav's on the other hand stupid, after the kind of numbers boozer put up do they really think that no one is gona pay more then 40 million over 5 years for his services, retards. And do they really think in this day and age of bling bling boozer would take a 20 million dollar pay cut just to keep his word and stay with the Cavs. you can't blame boozer in this case though, he worked for his money and he deserves it, DON"T HATE THE PLAYER HATE THE GAME
07-10-2004, 09:37 AM
#14
Drifting
Actually, this is about the worst thing many execs and agents have ever seen. It is not Paxson's fault. This was a deal that Gordon Gund authorized and wanted to do. I don't care what you say, Boozer is a piece of shit. He went to Paxson and Gund and told them that if they respected him, they should let him out of his deal. He promised them he would show loyalty and re-sign.
What he did is complete horseshit. How do you abondon your teammates like that? Do you think his agent will ever be dealing with the Cavs again? Do you think that agent will EVER be trusted again? It's bad biz all around.
What he did is complete horseshit. How do you abondon your teammates like that? Do you think his agent will ever be dealing with the Cavs again? Do you think that agent will EVER be trusted again? It's bad biz all around.
07-10-2004, 10:18 AM
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The Cavs are partly to blame for the whole situation. The plan was to lock up Boozer for cheap, they weren't expecting Utah to offer some ridiculous contract. Boozer is lying bastard, but money talks and I would've done the same thing.
This offseason is all about overplaying people.... cap space has made teams go crazy.
This offseason is all about overplaying people.... cap space has made teams go crazy.
07-10-2004, 11:17 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Jason
Actually, this is about the worst thing many execs and agents have ever seen. It is not Paxson's fault. This was a deal that Gordon Gund authorized and wanted to do. I don't care what you say, Boozer is a piece of shit. He went to Paxson and Gund and told them that if they respected him, they should let him out of his deal. He promised them he would show loyalty and re-sign.
What he did is complete horseshit. How do you abondon your teammates like that? Do you think his agent will ever be dealing with the Cavs again? Do you think that agent will EVER be trusted again? It's bad biz all around.
What he did is complete horseshit. How do you abondon your teammates like that? Do you think his agent will ever be dealing with the Cavs again? Do you think that agent will EVER be trusted again? It's bad biz all around.
07-10-2004, 12:33 PM
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Boozer raises ethical question
Boozer, who agreed Thursday to sign a six-year, $68-million offer sheet with the Jazz next week, reportedly convinced the Cavaliers, who could have exercised a $695,000 option for next season, to make him a free agent instead by promising to sign a $40-million deal with Cleveland. Sports Illustrated writer Ian Thomsen, in a story on the magazine's Web site, said, "According to a source who was in the room at the time the verbal deal was struck, Boozer told [Cleveland owner Gordon] Gund, 'If you respect me by not picking up the option, I'll show trust and loyalty to you by signing with you.' " And I promise not to get any in your mouth or hair :bukkake:
Boozer, who agreed Thursday to sign a six-year, $68-million offer sheet with the Jazz next week, reportedly convinced the Cavaliers, who could have exercised a $695,000 option for next season, to make him a free agent instead by promising to sign a $40-million deal with Cleveland. Sports Illustrated writer Ian Thomsen, in a story on the magazine's Web site, said, "According to a source who was in the room at the time the verbal deal was struck, Boozer told [Cleveland owner Gordon] Gund, 'If you respect me by not picking up the option, I'll show trust and loyalty to you by signing with you.' " And I promise not to get any in your mouth or hair :bukkake:
07-10-2004, 01:27 PM
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$28 million more... Tough choice. Boozer and his agent are just smarter than the Cavs. Right or wrong, if you are in business it's hard to argue with a $28 million difference.
07-10-2004, 01:59 PM
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ya not shit man. 28 million dollars can make turn anyone into a lier. It was his agent that was behind the whole thing, and boy was he smart. And boozer is not a piece of shit player, I predict he will be an allstar in 2 years and for many years to come. It's said that see the lebron and boozer combo to go so quick but hey thats life.
07-12-2004, 11:37 AM
#20
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bump...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1838165
Yes!!! Get rid of the worst player on our team for a great power forward, plus keep one decent one on the bench... brilliant!!!
Junkster, whose all pumped up now
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1838165
Yes!!! Get rid of the worst player on our team for a great power forward, plus keep one decent one on the bench... brilliant!!!
Junkster, whose all pumped up now
07-12-2004, 11:50 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by Junkster
bump...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1838165
Yes!!! Get rid of the worst player on our team for a great power forward, plus keep one decent one on the bench... brilliant!!!
Junkster, whose all pumped up now
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1838165
Yes!!! Get rid of the worst player on our team for a great power forward, plus keep one decent one on the bench... brilliant!!!
Junkster, whose all pumped up now
07-12-2004, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason
Whoa whoa whoa my man. There is a major difference between Nash going to the Suns and Boozer going to the Jazz. One was honorable and the other lied his ass off. Do we really need to go into it further? Don't be so bitter. BTW, this guarantees the Mavs will never win shit. :fingerfawk:
07-12-2004, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason
Whoa whoa whoa my man. There is a major difference between Nash going to the Suns and Boozer going to the Jazz. One was honorable and the other lied his ass off. Do we really need to go into it further? Don't be so bitter. BTW, this guarantees the Mavs will never win shit. :fingerfawk:
steve nash is the liar here
07-12-2004, 12:48 PM
#24
Drifting
Originally Posted by sipark
Mark Cuban did offer him 50+ for 5 years and told him if anyone else offers him more (extreme in Cuban's mind), he should sign with them. What's Cuban supposed to do? Match that and give Nash max-like contract?
07-12-2004, 12:49 PM
#25
Drifting
Originally Posted by accsuperstar
We are better off without Nash in the long haul. Mavs > Suns anyday :fingerfawk:
steve nash is the liar here
steve nash is the liar here
07-12-2004, 12:50 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by goose25
I don't know that Kenyon Martin is a great power forward. I'd definitely say that he's good, but there are at least 5 Power forwards in the Western Conference (Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Zach Randolph, Dirk Nowitzi, Chris Webber, Amare Stoudamire) that are better than him. He will be a great addition to the Nuggets, if he signs, but i don't view him as a max contract type player. In order to justify that kind of contract, he's going to need to be a 20 points/10 rebounds per game player. So far, he has not been able to do that, but all the power forwards listed above can do it.
But even breaking down all these other PF, they aren't that impressive... (except of Timmy)
KG... not a true PF, a tweener.
Dirk... not a true PF, a tweener... plus no defense, no inside game.
C Webb... as much as this is ma boy, his knee injury this last year means that he's finally showing his mileage.
Amare... still suspect defense, not consistant.
K Mart is a true PF with interior defence on other true post players, able to run on breaks, and brings toughness which the Nuggs had none of...
Is he worth max, probably not... but with limited PF free agents, this might be the next best thing. Since every team is reloading for this next year, if you don't sign a big name, you're already out of the game.
Junkster, who also thinks getting rid of Nikoli is a plus in this deal
07-12-2004, 01:12 PM
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I just like it when k mart dunks and then starts screaming and then shows everyone he's heart by ripping his jersey down. i wonder if this means that nene is going to the bench?? cuz i thought nene had the potential to be a great player in the league, he's kinda like k mart strong and fierce. Well atleast melo won't have to worry about anyone picking on him next year cuz he's got back up now
07-12-2004, 01:18 PM
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I do worry about Nene. He's still a bit of a project, but he's got all the natural talent to be much better. If he can get a decent mid range jumper added to his resume, he might be a good PF in the league. He's quick on his feet, and can run with the best of em...
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
07-12-2004, 02:13 PM
#30
John Starks - The Dunk
Originally Posted by Jason
Whoa whoa whoa my man. There is a major difference between Nash going to the Suns and Boozer going to the Jazz. One was honorable and the other lied his ass off. Do we really need to go into it further? Don't be so bitter. BTW, this guarantees the Mavs will never win shit. :fingerfawk:
07-12-2004, 02:17 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Junkster
I do worry about Nene. He's still a bit of a project, but he's got all the natural talent to be much better. If he can get a decent mid range jumper added to his resume, he might be a good PF in the league. He's quick on his feet, and can run with the best of em...
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
07-12-2004, 02:17 PM
#32
Drifting
Originally Posted by yuhoo22
The mavs would never have won $hit regardless....They have a bunch of talented players that are all over paid with no heart! Nash knew it and got out of there at the right time. IMHO at least
BTW, where is John Starks anyway?
07-12-2004, 02:18 PM
#33
Drifting
Originally Posted by goose25
K-Mart does bring toughness but he also brings along the antics also. He will make the Nuggets a tougher team, no doubt, but i think their interests would be better served by adding a shooting guard such a Quentin Richardson or Jamal Crawford.
Unless LA matches...
07-12-2004, 02:28 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Jason
Q is ours, all ours!
Unless LA matches...
Unless LA matches...
07-12-2004, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkster
I do worry about Nene. He's still a bit of a project, but he's got all the natural talent to be much better. If he can get a decent mid range jumper added to his resume, he might be a good PF in the league. He's quick on his feet, and can run with the best of em...
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
But Kenyon does bring the toughness, which is hard to find in big men these days, for some reason...
Junkster, who also wants a shooting guard this off season
07-12-2004, 03:52 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: AUSTIN TEJAS
Age: 41
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Originally Posted by Jason
how did nash lie? you still haven't made a valid point. that and the mavs will be lucky to make the playoffs this year,
07-12-2004, 07:02 PM
#37
Keeping emos out of
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by accsuperstar
sure the mavs may never win a championship, but how many teams do? only 1 a year and those teams definately will not include phoenix or new york
07-12-2004, 07:46 PM
#39
Drifting