DLP vs. LCD
Originally Posted by Marc S
waiting for delivery on this one.... 56" samsung DLP. saw it was only a few hundred more for the same model i was looking at except i was looking at a 42"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...&s=electronics
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by yunginTL
i heard that with plasmas after about 5 years of usage, the picture quality is cut in half? whats the truth?
If quality = brightness/subcontrast yes...
It depends on how the TV is tuned (setup). If you have it set to max brightness it will degrade the phospors in the plasma very fast. So, yes after 5 years of good use it could be toast...
p.s.
Those "60,000 hours" ratings are NOT at the max brightness, they tweak the set to low setting to get those results. 10-15k hours is way more realistic for anyone who has their settings turned up.
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by juniorbean
Good stuff! Since you keep going up in price and size you should have just jumped on a new 1080p set for another $275 more
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282
Why did no one mention LCoS TV(s)?
I would have skipped the "wobulation" DLP sets. And got a JVC LCoS set or Sony.
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by juniorbean
My neighbor has the highest end Mistu DLP (think it's the Diamond line) and the picture is meh. Not impressed at all with the Mistubishi DLPs, and he's had problems on and off with it losing configurations and so on. I haven't seen their 1080p sets, but their other stuff is not impressive at all.
another sad thing about the mitsu 1080p DLPs is they 1/2 the 1080i input and scale it up to 1080p
Synaesthesia sounds sweet
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From: Gainesville
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Why did no one mention LCoS TV(s)?
I still love my Toshiba 52HM95 DLP though. I only wish I waited three months and got a 1080p model.
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Drifting
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From: PA
is having a 780p gonna be much different then a 1080? i wasnt really aware of this when purchasing. i guess i didnt do ALL my homework. im not a huge tv guy. i play video games pretty often (especially since amdden just came out) and i watch some tv. im not big into dvd's or anything....
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hey bro, i'm in the same boat as you. I almost picked up a samsung 67 inch dlp from frys today (the price was amazing.. then I found out why.. it had a defect, and was the last one available).
anyway, if you're only playing for video games, don't sweat it.. considering your circumstance, I think you got a good set (older, but good price)... you should be very happy.
anyway, if you're only playing for video games, don't sweat it.. considering your circumstance, I think you got a good set (older, but good price)... you should be very happy.
Originally Posted by Marc S
is having a 780p gonna be much different then a 1080? i wasnt really aware of this when purchasing. i guess i didnt do ALL my homework. im not a huge tv guy. i play video games pretty often (especially since amdden just came out) and i watch some tv. im not big into dvd's or anything....
If you're going to just be playing video games and watching TV, then you'll be fine with a 1080p set. The biggest difference with the 1080p is that on sets over 50" or so, you'll notice a more crisp and vibrant picture. You'll also notice less artifacting during fast motion. Basically, the bigger the screen, the more benefit of 1080p. If you were on a 42" screen, odds are you wouldn't see a difference, but typically over 50" you do... and over 55" you definitely do. I'm going 1080p b/c the PS3 will support 1080p, so I want my TV to be able to handle that. I've also returned one 60" TV (720p Sony) b/c of picture quality related to artifacting... so having 1080p will cure that. These are MY reasons for wanting a 1080p set.
Now, keep in mind that YOU may not notice a difference. You said you're not a huge TV guy... so what that means to me is that YOU will be very happy with the set you just bought. It's a great set with a great clear HD picture... and you will love it. Someone like you does not need 1080p.... so don't sweat it
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Why did no one mention LCoS TV(s)?
I would have skipped the "wobulation" DLP sets. And got a JVC LCoS set or Sony.
Originally Posted by SiGGy
another sad thing about the mitsu 1080p DLPs is they 1/2 the 1080i input and scale it up to 1080p
Synaesthesia sounds sweet
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From: Gainesville
Originally Posted by Marc S
is having a 780p gonna be much different then a 1080? i wasnt really aware of this when purchasing. i guess i didnt do ALL my homework. im not a huge tv guy. i play video games pretty often (especially since amdden just came out) and i watch some tv. im not big into dvd's or anything....
Right now there are no 1080p broadcasts. 720p is the highest resolution you'll find from your cable or satellite provider. I really think the Blueray, HD DVD, and PS3 will be the only 1080p content for sometime now. The cable and satellite companies will have to fully adopt MPEG-4 to push that kind of data.
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Drifting
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From: PA
you guys are damn informative. ill be fine... like i said, i play madden and i watch poker and sometimes other tv. ill watch a movie if its on cable. i watch a DVD maybe 10 times a year.... if that. so it sounds like im where i wanna be. now i know what 720p and 1080i are for when i get a new tv for the living room in a few months.
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by Schizm
you'll be fine then. DVDs are not HD. Unless you bought a nice DVD player that up-converts to HD.
Right now there are no 1080p broadcasts. 720p is the highest resolution you'll find from your cable or satellite provider. I really think the Blueray, HD DVD, and PS3 will be the only 1080p content for sometime now. The cable and satellite companies will have to fully adopt MPEG-4 to push that kind of data.
Right now there are no 1080p broadcasts. 720p is the highest resolution you'll find from your cable or satellite provider. I really think the Blueray, HD DVD, and PS3 will be the only 1080p content for sometime now. The cable and satellite companies will have to fully adopt MPEG-4 to push that kind of data.
It's a toss up, there are a LOT of 1080i channels and a handful of 720p channels. They are NOT all 720p. That is incorrect.
1080p is the future, if you want your TV to be future proof 1080p will be the technology you want.
But you have to be careful what you purchase. There is only one TV out at the moment that will accept a 1080p signal (a HP 1080p model). There are lots of "1080p" TV(s) out that do not accept a 1080p signal. The next generation 1080p models are suppose to all support a 1080p signal as an input. I would hold off purchasing until the end of this year.
Basically with the latest 1080p TV(s) you'll be good for 10 years or so. There will be improvements in color and contrast and picture scaling as models come and go. But 1080p will be the last jump in HD for quite a few years to come.
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by juniorbean
My parents and neighbor both have a JVC LCoS set and I'm not impressed by either. My 50" Sammy has a much better picture. As for Sony, ever since I had to return their 60" LCD last November I've been very leary of them. So that's why I personally didn't recommend either...
A new 1080p LCoS JVC set? or an older 720p LCoS set?
Why would you ever buy a RP LCD TV? they have horrible greens that look neon and nasty screen door effect. Not to mention slow reponse times on the LCD panels that cause ghosting...
The newer 1080P JVCs school any DLP I have ever seen. I somehow doubt your parents own a 1080p JVC, they have only been out for 8 months or so.
Again, unless you played the same content back from the same equipment and adjusted the TVs correctly. You cannot easily cross compare TVs, unless your a professional TV calibrator.
1080p LCoS is a clear winner IMO, DLP just cuts too many corners
DLP doesn't have better color than LCoS
DLP doesn't actually produce true colors it tricks your eyes into seeing color (and this trickery has different effects on different people, so not everyone see the same color tint)
DLP will have rainbow problems with some people
DLP still can't do a true 1080P without "wobulation'
Originally Posted by SiGGy
This post is informative but some of the information is incorrect.
It's a toss up, there are a LOT of 1080i channels and a handful of 720p channels. They are NOT all 720p. That is incorrect.
1080p is the future, if you want your TV to be future proof 1080p will be the technology you want.
But you have to be careful what you purchase. There is only one TV out at the moment that will accept a 1080p signal (a HP 1080p model). There are lots of "1080p" TV(s) out that do not accept a 1080p signal. The next generation 1080p models are suppose to all support a 1080p signal as an input. I would hold off purchasing until the end of this year.
Basically with the latest 1080p TV(s) you'll be good for 10 years or so. There will be improvements in color and contrast and picture scaling as models come and go. But 1080p will be the last jump in HD for quite a few years to come.
It's a toss up, there are a LOT of 1080i channels and a handful of 720p channels. They are NOT all 720p. That is incorrect.
1080p is the future, if you want your TV to be future proof 1080p will be the technology you want.
But you have to be careful what you purchase. There is only one TV out at the moment that will accept a 1080p signal (a HP 1080p model). There are lots of "1080p" TV(s) out that do not accept a 1080p signal. The next generation 1080p models are suppose to all support a 1080p signal as an input. I would hold off purchasing until the end of this year.
Basically with the latest 1080p TV(s) you'll be good for 10 years or so. There will be improvements in color and contrast and picture scaling as models come and go. But 1080p will be the last jump in HD for quite a few years to come.
Rumor has it that Sony's next model release will support 1080p via HDMI, as will many other manufacturers releasing new or updated sets this year...
Originally Posted by SiGGy
A new 1080p LCoS JVC set? or an older 720p LCoS set?
Why would you ever buy a RP LCD TV? they have horrible greens that look neon and nasty screen door effect. Not to mention slow reponse times on the LCD panels that cause ghosting...
DLP still can't do a true 1080P without "wobulation'
Why would you ever buy a RP LCD TV? they have horrible greens that look neon and nasty screen door effect. Not to mention slow reponse times on the LCD panels that cause ghosting...
DLP still can't do a true 1080P without "wobulation'
As for the LCD... it actually looked very good at first. After tuning the colors the picture was sick. No problem with greens or any other color. As for SDE, at first I did not see it. Then one day, I did... and the TV was ruined for me and I saw it all the time. Combine that with the terrible artifacting during fast motion (especially football, which sucked), and it went back. Thank God for 30-day return policies
Oh, and I'm not 100% sure b/c I haven't done too much research on it yet... but Sammy's new 1080p 56" DLP that uses the LED light engine (good-bye color wheel!!) should be able to do 1080p w/o wobulation. Again, not sure b/c I haven't looked into it that much... but I will when the time comes to get another TV next year...
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by yunginTL
wat is the diff between 1080p and 1080i
I = interlaced scan
It's the way the TV draws the picture information on the screen.
Lets pretend this ASCII art image is being drawn on your TV screen:
Code:
0 a8888888a a8888888a 1 d88888888888b d88888888888b 2 888P~~~~~~~Y888 888P~~~~~~~Y888 3 d88^ ^88a88^ ^88b 4 88P Y888P Y88 5 88 __ 888 __ 88 6 88 dd8b 888 d88b 88 7 88 Y88P 888 Y88P 88 8 88, ~~ ,888, ~~ ,88 9 Y88, ,88Y88, ,88P 10 _Y88b d88P Y88b d88P_ 11 a88p88888888888^ ^88888888888q88a 12 d8P~ Y888888888~ ~888888888P ~Y8b 13 d8P ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ Y8b 14 d88 88b 15 88P Y88 16 88 88 17 88 .... .... 88 18 88 :::::: :::::: 88 19 88 :::::: :::::: 88 20 88 `::::' `::::' 88 21 88 **a a** 88 22 88 ~ab da~ 88 23 a d88b Y8a a8P d8P 24 8a__a88888 ~Ya. .dP~ 88P 25 a88888888888a___________=8a_a8=___________a88P 26 88888P ~~*8888888888888888888888888888888P__ 27 88~~~ ~Y88888888888888888888888888888888b___ 28 d8P 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 888888888b___ 29 d88 8P ::::: ::::: ::::: 88~~~~Y888888b 30 Y88 d8 ::::: _:::::_ ::::: 88 ~~~Y888b 31 ~8ba 8P ::::: d88a:a88b ::::: 88 ~Y88 32 88ba d8 ::::: 8888a8888 ::::: 88 88^ 33 ~Y8b___8P ::::: 8888:8888 ::::: 88 aP 34 ~Y8888 ::::: Y88:::88P ::::: 88 a8a 35 88P ::::: ~:::::~ ::::: 88b____a88a 36 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 88888888P 37 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 8PY8888
On a progressive picture the image is drawn from 0-37 in order in one frame like above.
With interlacing the image is drawn with every even number skipping the odd in one frame, then every odd number skipping the even in the 2nd frame. It does this so fast your eyes have a hard time catching it. It can be seen by the video slightly shaking, but most people don't notice it.
So with interlaced your 1st frame would look like this, drawing only the even lines.
Code:
0 a8888888a a8888888a 1 2 888P~~~~~~~Y888 888P~~~~~~~Y888 3 4 88P Y888P Y88 5 6 88 dd8b 888 d88b 88 7 8 88, ~~ ,888, ~~ ,88 9 10 _Y88b d88P Y88b d88P_ 11 12 d8P~ Y888888888~ ~888888888P ~Y8b 13 14 d88 88b 15 16 88 88 17 18 88 :::::: :::::: 88 19 20 88 `::::' `::::' 88 21 22 88 ~ab da~ 88 23 24 8a__a88888 ~Ya. .dP~ 88P 25 26 88888P ~~*8888888888888888888888888888888P__ 27 28 d8P 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 888888888b___ 29 30 Y88 d8 ::::: _:::::_ ::::: 88 ~~~Y888b 31 32 88ba d8 ::::: 8888a8888 ::::: 88 88^ 33 34 ~Y8888 ::::: Y88:::88P ::::: 88 a8a 35 36 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 88888888P
Code:
0 1 d88888888888b d88888888888b 2 3 d88^ ^88a88^ ^88b 4 5 88 __ 888 __ 88 6 7 88 Y88P 888 Y88P 88 8 9 Y88, ,88Y88, ,88P 10 11 a88p88888888888^ ^88888888888q88a 12 13 d8P ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ Y8b 14 15 88P Y88 16 17 88 .... .... 88 18 19 88 :::::: :::::: 88 20 21 88 **a a** 88 22 23 a d88b Y8a a8P d8P 24 25 a88888888888a___________=8a_a8=___________a88P 26 27 88~~~ ~Y88888888888888888888888888888888b___ 28 29 d88 8P ::::: ::::: ::::: 88~~~~Y888888b 30 31 ~8ba 8P ::::: d88a:a88b ::::: 88 ~Y88 32 33 ~Y8b___8P ::::: 8888:8888 ::::: 88 aP 34 35 88P ::::: ~:::::~ ::::: 88b____a88a 36 37 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 8PY8888
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by yunginTL
whoaaaaaa....interestingg do u just read up on these things to know this or what?
Ya, a ton. Like a lot of other guys on here I'm a video/electronics nut.
p.s.
I edited my post above and fixed the 2nd frame in the interlacing example.
Also, if you have a good eye and your watching a normal off air analog broadcast. You can see interlacing on fast moving images. You will get fringing on the edges.
It would look like this if the image was moving sideways. basically fringing is 2 interlaced frames that do not match up when they are put together because one frame is ahead of the other one in motion.
Obviously with all of these wierd issues interlacing can have progressive is the better choice.
Code:
0 a8888888a a8888888a 1 d88888888888b d88888888888b 2 888P~~~~~~~Y888 888P~~~~~~~Y888 3 d88^ ^88a88^ ^88b 4 88P Y888P Y88 5 88 __ 888 __ 88 6 88 dd8b 888 d88b 88 7 88 Y88P 888 Y88P 88 8 88, ~~ ,888, ~~ ,88 9 Y88, ,88Y88, ,88P 10 _Y88b d88P Y88b d88P_ 11 a88p88888888888^ ^88888888888q88a 12 d8P~ Y888888888~ ~888888888P ~Y8b 13 d8P ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ Y8b 14 d88 88b 15 88P Y88 16 88 88 17 88 .... .... 88 18 88 :::::: :::::: 88 19 88 :::::: :::::: 88 20 88 `::::' `::::' 88 21 88 **a a** 88 22 88 ~ab da~ 88 23 a d88b Y8a a8P d8P 24 8a__a88888 ~Ya. .dP~ 88P 25 a88888888888a___________=8a_a8=___________a88P 26 88888P ~~*8888888888888888888888888888888P__ 27 88~~~ ~Y88888888888888888888888888888888b___ 28 d8P 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 888888888b___ 29 d88 8P ::::: ::::: ::::: 88~~~~Y888888b 30 Y88 d8 ::::: _:::::_ ::::: 88 ~~~Y888b 31 ~8ba 8P ::::: d88a:a88b ::::: 88 ~Y88 32 88ba d8 ::::: 8888a8888 ::::: 88 88^ 33 ~Y8b___8P ::::: 8888:8888 ::::: 88 aP 34 ~Y8888 ::::: Y88:::88P ::::: 88 a8a 35 88P ::::: ~:::::~ ::::: 88b____a88a 36 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 88888888P 37 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 8PY8888
Synaesthesia sounds sweet
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Posts: 1,118
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From: Gainesville
Originally Posted by SiGGy
This post is informative but some of the information is incorrect.
It's a toss up, there are a LOT of 1080i channels and a handful of 720p channels. They are NOT all 720p. That is incorrect.
1080p is the future, if you want your TV to be future proof 1080p will be the technology you want.
It's a toss up, there are a LOT of 1080i channels and a handful of 720p channels. They are NOT all 720p. That is incorrect.
1080p is the future, if you want your TV to be future proof 1080p will be the technology you want.
EDIT: IMHO
Last edited by Schizm; Aug 26, 2006 at 12:56 AM.
Originally Posted by the_Osk
what are the model numbers of the new Samsungs that are true 1080p w/o the color wheel. I'm thinking of the dlps.
I know the old ones were hl-r. Then there is hl-s. Is there something newer, or did you mean hl-s?
I know the old ones were hl-r. Then there is hl-s. Is there something newer, or did you mean hl-s?
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/D...S5679WXXAA.asp
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally Posted by juniorbean
Right now there is only 1 TV that has the LED light engine... and it's a 56" DLP. Model # is HL-S5679W.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/D...S5679WXXAA.asp
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/D...S5679WXXAA.asp
Unless the TV has 3 DLP chips it will still suffer the same rainbow problems the colorwheel units have. That TV doesn't have 3 chips, it only has one. And to boot it's a "wobulated" set.
LCoS > DLP
p.s.
All TVs are going to LED projector versions in the next year or so. You dont' want a TV that only has one light engine chip. They have to simluate color by switching between red, geen and blue LEDs rapidly like a colorwheel projection system does.
^ Well, good thing I've never seen a rainbow then
When the time comes to really dig in and do some research, I'll have to check out the 1080p LCoS sets. I know you love them, but as mentioned before, the 720p to 720p comparison of LCoS to DLP only showed me that I like my Sammy DLP better. If they've come a long way with the 1080p sets, then looks like that may be the way to go. We'll see when the time comes (which I hope is soon, b/c my PS3 will need a 1080p set to hook up to )...
When the time comes to really dig in and do some research, I'll have to check out the 1080p LCoS sets. I know you love them, but as mentioned before, the 720p to 720p comparison of LCoS to DLP only showed me that I like my Sammy DLP better. If they've come a long way with the 1080p sets, then looks like that may be the way to go. We'll see when the time comes (which I hope is soon, b/c my PS3 will need a 1080p set to hook up to
)...
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From: Not Las Vegas (SF Bay Area)
Originally Posted by SiGGy
P = progressive scan
I = interlaced scan
It's the way the TV draws the picture information on the screen.
Lets pretend this ASCII art image is being drawn on your TV screen:
Note the numbers on the left. Those are the horitontial scan lines.
On a progressive picture the image is drawn from 0-37 in order in one frame like above.
With interlacing the image is drawn with every even number skipping the odd in one frame, then every odd number skipping the even in the 2nd frame. It does this so fast your eyes have a hard time catching it. It can be seen by the video slightly shaking, but most people don't notice it.
So with interlaced your 1st frame would look like this, drawing only the even lines.
Your second frame would look like this, drawing only the odd lines.
Thise two frames get drawn on the screen one after another very quickly, and since your eyes hold on to information for a split second your brain combines the 2 frames together to make one image.
I = interlaced scan
It's the way the TV draws the picture information on the screen.
Lets pretend this ASCII art image is being drawn on your TV screen:
Code:
0 a8888888a a8888888a 1 d88888888888b d88888888888b 2 888P~~~~~~~Y888 888P~~~~~~~Y888 3 d88^ ^88a88^ ^88b 4 88P Y888P Y88 5 88 __ 888 __ 88 6 88 dd8b 888 d88b 88 7 88 Y88P 888 Y88P 88 8 88, ~~ ,888, ~~ ,88 9 Y88, ,88Y88, ,88P 10 _Y88b d88P Y88b d88P_ 11 a88p88888888888^ ^88888888888q88a 12 d8P~ Y888888888~ ~888888888P ~Y8b 13 d8P ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ Y8b 14 d88 88b 15 88P Y88 16 88 88 17 88 .... .... 88 18 88 :::::: :::::: 88 19 88 :::::: :::::: 88 20 88 `::::' `::::' 88 21 88 **a a** 88 22 88 ~ab da~ 88 23 a d88b Y8a a8P d8P 24 8a__a88888 ~Ya. .dP~ 88P 25 a88888888888a___________=8a_a8=___________a88P 26 88888P ~~*8888888888888888888888888888888P__ 27 88~~~ ~Y88888888888888888888888888888888b___ 28 d8P 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 888888888b___ 29 d88 8P ::::: ::::: ::::: 88~~~~Y888888b 30 Y88 d8 ::::: _:::::_ ::::: 88 ~~~Y888b 31 ~8ba 8P ::::: d88a:a88b ::::: 88 ~Y88 32 88ba d8 ::::: 8888a8888 ::::: 88 88^ 33 ~Y8b___8P ::::: 8888:8888 ::::: 88 aP 34 ~Y8888 ::::: Y88:::88P ::::: 88 a8a 35 88P ::::: ~:::::~ ::::: 88b____a88a 36 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 88888888P 37 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 8PY8888
On a progressive picture the image is drawn from 0-37 in order in one frame like above.
With interlacing the image is drawn with every even number skipping the odd in one frame, then every odd number skipping the even in the 2nd frame. It does this so fast your eyes have a hard time catching it. It can be seen by the video slightly shaking, but most people don't notice it.
So with interlaced your 1st frame would look like this, drawing only the even lines.
Code:
0 a8888888a a8888888a 1 2 888P~~~~~~~Y888 888P~~~~~~~Y888 3 4 88P Y888P Y88 5 6 88 dd8b 888 d88b 88 7 8 88, ~~ ,888, ~~ ,88 9 10 _Y88b d88P Y88b d88P_ 11 12 d8P~ Y888888888~ ~888888888P ~Y8b 13 14 d88 88b 15 16 88 88 17 18 88 :::::: :::::: 88 19 20 88 `::::' `::::' 88 21 22 88 ~ab da~ 88 23 24 8a__a88888 ~Ya. .dP~ 88P 25 26 88888P ~~*8888888888888888888888888888888P__ 27 28 d8P 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 888888888b___ 29 30 Y88 d8 ::::: _:::::_ ::::: 88 ~~~Y888b 31 32 88ba d8 ::::: 8888a8888 ::::: 88 88^ 33 34 ~Y8888 ::::: Y88:::88P ::::: 88 a8a 35 36 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 88888888P
Code:
0 1 d88888888888b d88888888888b 2 3 d88^ ^88a88^ ^88b 4 5 88 __ 888 __ 88 6 7 88 Y88P 888 Y88P 88 8 9 Y88, ,88Y88, ,88P 10 11 a88p88888888888^ ^88888888888q88a 12 13 d8P ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ Y8b 14 15 88P Y88 16 17 88 .... .... 88 18 19 88 :::::: :::::: 88 20 21 88 **a a** 88 22 23 a d88b Y8a a8P d8P 24 25 a88888888888a___________=8a_a8=___________a88P 26 27 88~~~ ~Y88888888888888888888888888888888b___ 28 29 d88 8P ::::: ::::: ::::: 88~~~~Y888888b 30 31 ~8ba 8P ::::: d88a:a88b ::::: 88 ~Y88 32 33 ~Y8b___8P ::::: 8888:8888 ::::: 88 aP 34 35 88P ::::: ~:::::~ ::::: 88b____a88a 36 37 88 ::::: ::::: ::::: 8PY8888
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