JRock

22. Still on the young side, but old enough to form educated opinions (and prejudices against certain car companies).

Why are we getting into ages? Is it childish to have a different opinion than you or to point out things you don't like? You're naturally going to disagree with me as you own a BMW. Age discussions just get the thread siderailed further.

Maximized

No he is going to disagree with you because you are making blanket statements, which is incorrect. It is alright to have an opinion, but next time base it on the facts and not fiction.

Crazy Bimmer

Oh no, i was just curious, i wanted to know what your background is from the statments that you make about german companies. We all know you dont like their price.. hell you dont dont like most prices of anything.. but i wanted to know how you can talk about quality. Have you had alot of experience with german cars?

Also so you know, there are no premiums on any 3-series cars.. even the m3 can be had at sticker now.

BMWs, MB, and Audi sell really well... so it would be hard to beileve their reliable has gotten worse. They get alot of repeated customers.. so they must be doing somthing right.

And now you say you hope to never to buy a car cuz of its brand name.. so you saying your next car will be an accord since it offers almost the same or more than your current CLS?

Im not mad at ya, i was just curious the background from the things you say.

Im not naturally dis-agreeing with you cuz i have a bmw... look at it this way.. I have more of a right to talk about this since i have owned american, japanese, and now german cars.. so I can compare them fairly.

MB is soild as hell.. look at their resell value.. its the best out of any company it seems. People buy the name cuz the name is well established. I would agree with your statments if these germans had these premium prices and couldnt sell their cars. BUt since they are selling then their must be a reason for it.

Sorry for the babble.

Scrib

Also helps that you live in Kansas and others are in NY and NJ, where insurance premiums are several times more expensive...

JRock

Let me expand upon my blanket statements then:

*Reliability of Benz: Brand I see on the side of the road most - Crystler products. Second most - Fords. Third - Benz. And Benz aren't exactly volume sellers like the first two. Your experience may vary, but aside from what I've seen, I've also read posts and talked to people who have owned Benzes and they seem to break a lot. Hell, in magazine tests they seem to break a lot, especially modded ones. I've never seen so many cars break in tests as I have Benzes. That is where that blanket statement comes from.

*About Audi turbos: First of all turbos = more maintenance. That's just a fact of life, and is something that would have me reconsider ever having a turbo car as my daily driver. My weekend performance car? Sure. But not a daily driver.
Second, everyone likes to say "dude, get an Audi and chip it". You chip a 1.8T or 2.7TT and depending on the chip and how much you drive it, it's almost guaranteed you'll burn a turbo or kill the trans or diff. It's so frequent with chipped cars, it seems like it's almost guaranteed you'll break something. Hence why I said that "blanket statement." Chipping is simple, but the results can be expensive to say the least.

*About pricing premiums and options gouging: First of all, part of the reason why Audis, Benzes, and BMWs cost so much is the nameplate. Yes, of course it tends to be a good quality product fit-and-finish wise, but you are inarguably paying a premium for the symbol on the grille (or hood as the case may be).
Second - options. We all know the undeniable gouging on 3series options. Audis aren't much better. I recently priced the A4 and A6 for my dad and the options are almost as laughably priced as BMW's... and they even CHARGE YOU FOR LIKE 8 out of 10 PAINT COLORS (and like $450 too). Silly. Benz is the same way with overly-expensive options.

German cars have a big aura about them (not all of it deserved) and so they command a premium prices - and since many people* think nothing of throwing a large amount of money into a car simply for the name and perceived prestige they feel they'll get by driving it, companies can continue to ask overly-high prices. It's the reality of German car pricing, but I don't have to accept or go along with it.

There are few German cars I'd be willing to drop the exhorbitant fees for that they demand, and those only because they're so >insert positive adjective here< I would make the sacrifice:

M3, M5, and the new S4 when it comes out.




We've all discussed this around here before, so I like to bypass writing all this and just say I think German cars are overpriced. It saves time and finger energy.


*not talking about car enthusiasts such as yourself - talking about the average Benz or BMW owner who just knows "I want a BMW/Benz" and doesn't care about anything except that they leave the dealer driving one. Those are the majority of BMW/Benz customers, and those are the people that make it possible for them to price the cars and the options the way they do.

Maximized

The Benzs that you see in mag tests are probably RENNtechs, which yes are modified. Modified cars arent production cars. Look at any of the tests of AMG models and they never break. Hell look at this months C&D, even the Lingenfelter model broke.

Turbos can be reliable....IE Supra TT. The engine on the Supra is amazing and is known for its reliability under high HP. Check on other websites and see how many VW 1.8Ts or S4s are chipped and see how many problems arise. Chipping those cars is very reliable and a cheap source of HP.

amir was here

ive also noticed jrock doesnt like anything priced...even if its a steal..

dunno why, but i always catch him complaining about prices...maybe its just luck..dunno

Also, jrock, u mention turbo audi's maintenance?
well, in canada Audi gives free maintenance for 100k, for 100k all you have to pay for is TIRES..THATS IT.

I believe Bmw is the same.

Acura does not provide this btw.

I've spent well over 4 thousand dollars canadian in maintenance with my CL-S..

Thats 4k that i could have added to the sticker of the CL-S and I coulda got a 3-series..or a V6 A4...and the price difference would have been evened out with the free maintenance you get.

I dont know, I am turning into a Honda hater...lately its all been about german cars to me..

after driving my moms new A4, test driving the E500, and memories of playing around with a 3-series last year...it all makes sense...those germans know how to make sold cars that perform. I was driving a A6 2.7t today the WHOLE day..and all I can say is QUALiTY!

You get what u pay for.

Im pretty sure that if BMW's 3-series didnt have free maintenance, MSRP for the 330 would be a lot closer to the CL-S.

eclipse23

IM BUYING THE M3

I took out a C32AMG tonight.... um.... no thanks no comparison and even the salesperson grinned and outside after the test drive told me to get the M3.

As for all this talk about Mercedes vs BMW vs Audi.

All I have to say is this:

Audi
Adding a chip to your S4 will void the warranty AND Audi is taking a very serious and scrutinous approach to owners who come in with blown turbos and fried engines. You may not get the warranty you soo hope you have.

Mercedes
If BMW is the Macys of cars the Mercedes is the Neiman Marcus. Now, what do we call Neiman Marcus out here ? Needless markups. Mercedes are very expensive IMO above BMW. Their cars are very classy and powerful looking, dare I say sexy. I'll get a Mercedes when I hit 35 and want the pimp daddy of cars. It seemed that while Mercedes AMG packages are nice I look at the C&D comparos and they always seem to balk at the final price for what you get. I felt very detached from the road in the C32AMG and not one with the car like it did with the:

BMW
Ahhh, this one fits just right...... why did I ever second guess myself. The M3 is the consumate car that you can drive to work in every day and not raise the throttle above a normal 3 series cruise or you can DROP THE HAMMER and FLY. It's mean, it's aggressive, it's looks are menacing. Big open mouth up front with bulging fenders and a bulging hood to match. A simple M3 badge on it's ass with quad exhaust and some subtle grills on the side showing off it's true color. All this and NAVIGATION, seats that grip you and honestly, you feel like your stitched into them when you sit down. For my age, for what I look for in a car this is it. SMG for my sometimes slow trafficy commute and to get the most out of my gears with no 'rowing' involved

Thanks for all the opinions and guys, play nice.

Why not the Z06 Ernie you Eurotrash Yuppie Fag Who Wont Pick Up White Trash Trailer Girls !
While the Z06 is the monster car it's too much car for a daily driver and insurance is ridiculous here in NJ. I feel the M3 will at least be a little better behaved in some light snow and in heavy snow I'll be takin the train to work.

amir was here

the train?

yeah thats pimp.

haha

Scrib

Nice choice Ernie...

As much as I'm a HUGE Vette fan, I'd probably choose the M3 over it. Just becuase it'd be possble to drive the M 12 months out of the year. Good luck with the Vette in the winter months.

Can't wait for the pics!!!!!

Maximized

Both cars are going to suck in even light snow. Best bet is to invest in a set of snow tires.

BTW.....Try and get the Pilots on your M3. My friend got the Conti's and he hates them. He claims they dont grip at the track.

amir was here

check sig for the best damn snow tyres ever.

their as good as blizzaks, and after 2 seasons they look brand new...even the tire guy said they look new, and tire guys always like to say "u need new tires"

Crazy Bimmer

yes sir.. the Pilots are YUUMMMMY

JRock

The M3 is definitely the choice for a daily driver, as I said in my initial post - I'd go for the Z06 if I had a daily-driver beater. If it's your only car, get the M3.




Okay well either you don't read well or my memory is shot, but the only Lingenfelter that broke was the joke entry of a supercharged (or was it twin turbo?) 427ci in a Chevy Sonoma with a 4speed auto. The tranny broke.


Also, AGAIN, chipping a 1.8T/2.7TT is NOT as reliable a mod as you make it out to be. Own one, chip it, drive it hard (as is the whole point of modding a car for performance) and see how long it lasts and see how forthcoming they are with free warranty work when you bring in your busted car.


Jesal, your car looks hot in that shot. Definitely a good color choice!

Maximized

I read perfectly well. It was the 4WD Sonoma that DNF. I was just pointing out that any tuner car can break, even a well built vehicle by Lingenfelter.

As for chipping a VW/Audi, you need to read up more. The chips are reliable and have been in use for years now. Checkout www.goapr.com and look at the features built in so if you have to take the car in you can revert the engine back to stock boost.

eclipse23

I have 3 friends w/ audis, 2 w/ s4's. All were saying is that Audi is aware of the abuse, it's not recommended, and their paying closer attention to issues w/ the engine.

Scooter

can u tell us y it's no comparison??? not as grippy in the turns??? not as good off the line??? i'm curious how a comparably priced sports car (and IMO the C32 AMG is a sports car) can vary so much to the M performance-wise...thanx

eclipse23

I think MB can make a true BMW competitor, they just need to stop making such comfortable to drive cars. The C32AMG absorbed bumps much better than the M3 and the suspension was looser but that's not what I want out of a 5.0 0-60 capable car.

The steering in the M3 is precise. It gets more sensative at higher speeds and you can confidentally feel like you can take the car to it's 155mph governed limit without losing control. I pushed the C32 up to 120mph on the parkway w/ the salesguy who was encouraging me and it felt like the CL at 120, just not comfortable to go any higher. The seats were too comfy and not as grippy and I did not feel like I was in a fast car, I felt like I was in a car made to be fast. I feel like 2 different teams designed the C32AMG, one team designed the engine and tranny to be fast. The other team designed the interior. The car does not feel like a sports coupe especially for the 60K the car can jump up to w/ options.

The M3 is race bred through and through, you can feel that the same team who designed the gearing had input on the seats and ergonomics. Don't get me wrong the C32AMG is very nice and appointed well, just not as wild and serious about performance as the M3.

JRock

You were inferring "the Lingenfelter entry broke". His JOKE entry broke, because it was a friggin' s/c'd 427 on a stock GM 4speed auto tranny.
Nothing HE did broke, the stock tranny just gave out. So you're wrong. It was a joke entry and it wasn't even a completed vehicle (he's actually going to make a trans for it now).

What you're saying is twisting the truth. Stop spinning shit and just speak straight. The Lingenfelter C5, his SERIOUS ENTRY, not only finished perfectly fine, it won the thing.

And Audis: I never said the chips weren't reliable, I said it'll kill your turbo or another part of your drivetrain will break. It will. Feel free to chip your Audi though. I'm just sharing some knowledge about them that it's NOT as simple an upgrade as it sounds because it will cost you big in the long run.
Feel free to continue denying it too, but I don't know why you would purposely want to hurt other members here by lying about the reliability from doing a certain mod.

WiLd~CL~TYPS-@SS

it would be a hard choice for me too..but i think ill take the M3

damond

No lead sled for me please....unless it was GIVEN to me. Then I'll probably sell it and get something else!! M3 would be my other option. BUT if I had my choice...I'd rather have a used NSX over a new M3.

dallas cls girl

WOW!! This is probably the most interesting thread I have ever read here. I know the decision has been made and it sounds like the right one for your situation (the M3).

We have had a number of Corvettes and they are not for everyone. Driving them is totally different from most other cars. Your orientation is different - more car in front of you than back, etc.

You would be surprised how well they handle in the ice - we don't get snow here. The traction control works. Just don't get hit!!

The Vette's insurance is almost the same as the CLS, I will never understand that!!!