csmeance

All I can say is think before you post, being rude isn't going to get you anywhere...

The smoking gun is the common denominator of all the problems, lack of being able to shift into neutral, random acceleration, failure to turn off; all are related to one common controller, the ECU.

mrmako

I'm also done trying to make a point beyond this post.

To Majofo, PortlandRL, csmeance, and others that don't believe the Toyota hype, just watch this space. I feel, that is, a feeling based on what I have seen and what others have presented, that Toyota is lying. Once that happens, I'll comment on it.

Majin: No matter what anyone says, your belief in Toyota is unwavering. Similar to religion, where if one has faith, science can not dissuade you. I hope what has happened to some of these customers does not happen to you. Peace.

majin ssj eric

I have already said that if any investigation going forward actually PROVES that Toyota is lying or that there is a larger underlying issue here I will be willing to admit I was wrong and apologize. I still just don't understand how all of you can be so sure of Toyota's guilt absent anything other than inuendo and circumstantial evidence. If this was a courtroom the amount of actual proof against Toyota at this point wouldn't even net an indictment, much less a conviction....

majin ssj eric

Hmm, where was your "rudeness detector" when I was being called an "ignorant MF"?? Oh I see, rudeness only counts if somebody disagrees with you. I would refer you to all of my posts in which I have not resorted to name-calling. But if you really want to shut me up then, sure, give me a vacation....

Majofo

FYI, that was a warning to both of us to keep it civil..

csmeance

If you read my second to last post you will see that I gave out a general warning. It was not directed at you. In my last post I did post for you to think before you posted something as flipping someone off is just as bad as the other dude calling you a ignorant MF. I could care less if someone disagree's with me, I'm not the internet police trying to catch people who put out the wrong info or try to hurt others. As well I don't really give anyone vacations, that's up to the mega's and admin's, your being sarcastic towards me or anyone for the matter is just further compounding multiple reasons as why you should get one.

majin ssj eric

Well I apologize for any rudeness on my part in this thread. It was generally in response to rudeness towards me....

teranfon

Well, this thread certainly became interesting. Let's keep it civil however, and respect the opinions of everyone who chooses to contribute to it. No one is expected to agree with the opinion of another, but it isn't necessary to act with hostility.

csmeance has already issued his warnings, and will be supported whatever he decides.


Thanks everyone,

Terry

bigman

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

MiataNut

Yep - and it happened to my Escape, way before Ford owned up and issued a recall. It was obvious to me it was a defect in the car, and I was leaning on them pretty heavily when they came out with the recall. So Ford owners, you're welcome

As for Toyota, I'm no apologist or fanboy, but I do find it tough to believe they would engage in the kind of massive coverup some are alleging...it would either come out in court, or someone would blow the whistle, and the hit would be massive. Besides, the whole floormat/accelerator pedal deal is so ridiculous, just plain STUPID, do you really think they would concoct THAT as their cover?? Something that would end up making them look far more retarded than the vagueries of an "electronic" explanation? I say if it was the ECM they would come out looking better than they do now.

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

*****Update******

This is unbelievable! It turns out another customer who'd been loaned the VERY SAME Lexus ES350 involved in this crash, only 3 days before this tragedy, stated they also experienced a "stuck accelerator" and reported the incident to the receptionist a Bob Baker Lexus. Apparently the receptionist disregarded the customer's concern and the car was loaned out again. It makes me very angry to realize that Bob Baker Lexus was 100% negligent and therefore completely responsible for the loss of these innocent lives.

Here is the link to the article

http://www.10news.com/video/21871181/index.html

Majofo

:angryfire

fsttyms1

YeuEmMaiMai

looks like 2 entities will be paying out on this one.....

PortlandRL

Burn them with FIRE!!!! I hope they hold the dealer responsible for this!

MiataNut

So.......the Saylor family lawyers are suggesting the people 2 days earlier experienced the stuck accelerator due to a floormat, but a couple days later it must've been something else entirely that befell the Saylors?? Like it was some kind of cursed late model Lexus?? More like what else are they gonna say, because if it really WAS the floormat, and I'm sure it was, the big question has to be, why was this other Joe Six Pack customer able to reach down and yank the floormat off the pedal when this highly trained and experienced police officer was not.....food for thought.....

twinkerthescout

Dear MiataNut & Forum Members

I've only stumbled upon your forum by accident while reading about this accident ..
They might've not had a choice of exiting the highway they were on. I think the news said they had been on highway 125 ...
125 is just a 10-mile long toll road shortcut kinda thingy instead of dealing with the traffic on the giant freeways and longer distances & such
Calif Department of Transportation
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/paffairs/about/toll/rt125.htm

Ok back to reading =) I've been learning alot!

Thanks, Adriene

MiataNut

Oy - only ten miles long huh - that would indeed be a horrible place for something like this to happen, they must've felt very trapped

PortlandRL

I know I said I was done with this thread but this seemed too educational and interesting to pass up. It was posted on Club Lexus and is rather wordy but worth looking through.

-------------------------

I must have an honest face. Not being able to find adequate answers I went into a Lexus dealership today to try to get to the bottom of how a Lexus like the one that killed four people in CA actually worked. There are no good answers anywhere that I have searched. Not the Lexus forums, not here, not Googling the incident regarding this or that. So after looking around for an answer, wondering about anti-lock brakes, how an ES transmission worked, what the ECU would control, how to shut the engine off in an emergency and not finding any really good info including comments from Lexus owners I decided the only way to get to the bottom of this was...................go to a Lexus dealer and take a test drive in an '09 ES 350.

Now exactly what Lexus dealer is going to turn over a new car to a guy dressed in work boots, blue jeans, jean work shirt, dried mud on the knees of his jeans. Especially after he tells them what he wants to do. Specifically, I want to take one of your new cars out and test drive it to see how the transmission works and whether or not the brakes can haul it down from 80 mph at full throttle.

They threw me a key fob and said go test that one and give us a report on what you find.

But before I get into that we had a little discussion at the dealership. It was the floor mat they said. Ah, but it isn't nearly that simple I replied. I've been to Lexus forums to read owner comments, gun forums, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Corvette, BMW, Porsche....etc. No one knows the answer, there seems to be a lot of confusion and no one has tested this. Why didn't the brakes stop the car, why didn't the driver shift to neutral?, can the car be shifted to neutral when accelerating?, etc.

So they turned me loose with one of their new '09 ES 350s. I had my camera, wishing I had new batteries it. I took a few pictures then realized it had a video mode. I had never used it. But, I fired that up in hopes that I could record what I learned

I sized up the interior and the dash, the accelerator pedal and the front mat that was still installed in this one. It was no where near the pedal. The brakes felt exactly like the ones in my Ford truck. Spongy but they seemed to work fine. I sped down the entrance ramp to the nearby interstate searching for a big hole in the evening traffic. Soon I had my chance. I eyed the start/stop button with suspicion should things not go well. I played around with the shifter putting it into the driver side slot, the sport section. The most forward position is marked as neutral, then drive with + and - for manually selecting lower or higher gears by pulling the lever to the rear. There is a short center gate position with nothing showing and a right gate that leads to reverse and a far right gate that leads to park.

70 mph came up quickly, the road was clear and straight for 1/2 mile front and rear, four lanes. I nailed it, the transmission downshifted once or twice, the tach hit about 5,700 rpm if I remember correctly. The car surged forward, I hit the brakes with my left foot hard at 80 mph, right foot still planted on the floorboard. The brakes hauled the car down, was it smooth, no, the car was shaking like the rotors were warped but I expect it was the anti-lock system kicking in. As I slowed enough to have ditched the car, put it against the rail, etc. appx 20 mph, the brakes were still good. I let off the brakes and reaccelerated to 80, foot still on the floor. This didn't take long and I hit the brakes hard again.

This time I had about 1/3 the braking force as before and the car would not stop. It did slow somewhat but not easily and not nearly enough. I was able to slow to appx 60 mph. I let off the brake pedal and ran it back up to 80. I immediately hit the brakes hard again. This time.....I had essentially no brakes. I stood on em. They had faded. I let off the accelerator and tested them again as traffic was ahead. They were still to hot to slow me. My conclusion. On this car you have one chance to stop with the brakes with the engine at WOT. If you play with the brakes, try to stop a bit, let off, allow the car to reaccelerate, try to stop while heating the brakes.... you aren't going to stop. This car has four wheel disc brakes. But they apparently have a limit and one stop from this speed with the engine at WOT is it.

Now about the transmission. From all "appearances" the left gate is the one you would use. It is lit, shows neutral, drive, lower gears. The right gate is for reverse and park. The very short center gate appears to do nothing. So with gear selection lever in the left gate and in the drive positon I pushed the gear selector all the way forward to neutral. Nothing. I accelerated and while accelerating pushed the lever all the way against the neutral position which is as far forward as it will go in the left gate. Again nothing, the transmission stays engaged.

So, what about downshifting? As I expected you can downshift progressively with each pull of the gear selector toward the rear. Downshift up to a point that is. The ECU controls how far down you can shift or if you can downshift at all, based on speed. At speed you cannot downshift. Reverse is locked out.

But what does that short center section do. No lights, no nothing but it is a gate. So I shifted into it. Here my options are drive and neutral, nothing else and nothing marked as best I could tell. Push forward on the gear selection lever in the center gate and the transmission goes into neutral regardless of throttle position. Yes, the engine will rev when in heavy acceleration and idle if you push the lever to neutral with your foot off the accelerator. Just like it should. What is a problem is that if you weren't familiar with the car and in a panic you might not recognize this gate as a viable option. I only tried it because I was testing everything. It wasn't my car so I wans't familiar with it. There is a functioning, manually engaged, non computer locked out neutral.

Next I tried the start/stop button. Punching it will do nothing to turn the engine off whether moving slowly, coasting or accelerating. On the other hand, holding it in continuously for several seconds will kill the engine regardless of throttle position and the car is completely controllable. A quick punch restarts the engine with all the normal start up lights on the dash lighting.

So our driver only needed to know there was a functioning, manually engaged neutral position and where to find it or, how to use the dash start/stop button to kill the engine. Unfortunately he apparently didn't know either. I suggested that all Lexus clients be notified about how to shut the engine off in an emergency and where the manual neutral is located. You can't control what aftermarket mats might be put in a car. You can't control the car wash guys to not reinstall the mat improperly. You can make sure purchasers know these two things.

mrmako

I also was going to stay away from this thread, but this is very interesting. The factory brakes seem to be normal OEM types, that would cook after getting hot and fade. That seem reasonable.

But I think this writer just did what Toyota/Lexus should have done immediately after this senseless tragedy. And they can still "claim" that only floor mats are the issue.

If single life is saved because of this, that would be awesome.

MiataNut

PortlandRL, thanks for posting that. Interesting indeed. Have to assume if Saylor had had a few more miles before the road ran out, he might've figured out one of those 2 ways to stop the car...

CarAddict

Thanks for posting it PortlandRL.

To get the car into neutral, I don't think I would have thought of trying to engage it in the center gate! Under pressure, the left gate is probably the only thing I would've tried.

This is such a sad story.

Anyway, I was a bit confused by the discussion of the gears and gates. So I found a pic of it on the Lexus website. I think it's helpful to have it.

Sarlacc

Someone in my challenger club nearly died in their former tacoma when the accelerator got stuck. 70mph downhill...he crashed it into a parked car to stop himself.

Says it has nothing to do with the floor mats, says it has to with the newer drive by wire systems and improper voltage.

He is a dodge tech, so I give him some credit as to knowing what he is talking about.

MiataNut

Umm... if it's possible, as stated above, to put the high-tech ES into Neutral, I can't imagine a Tacoma that couldn't be put in Neutral - no crashing required.

MiataNut

Woah - that is not near as nutty looking as I first figured from the written description....now I'm back to thinking he really shoulda been trying all those gates, I mean what did he have to lose, and surely woulda found Neutral just from trial & error...

MiataNut

It's actually pretty clear and well marked right there on the shifter: manual mode (+/-) on the far left, then one gate over to the right is Drive and Neutral. And that makes sense that those 2 would be grouped together, because in any vehicle you can easily "bump up" to N from D. Console shift or column shift, makes no difference.

Anyway the guy musta just been in a panic, not really looking down at the layout. All he was doing was trying to upshift, when what he needed was just a 1 inch flick of the wrist to the right

Sarlacc

I wasn't there. I just saw the post wreck pics and it wasn't pretty. So, ummm yourself.

Majofo

MiataNut.. you make a lot of sense. You must know a lot about cars whereas all of us don't. I mean if a 20 yr vet of the CHP with countless number of hours in driving school & years behind the wheel in high risk situations can't do it.. how could a bunch of guys who have been working on their cars for years as well have any chance. You should open up a driving school teaching this technique to the CHP & newbs like us. How did it go again? so confusing..

majin ssj eric

Just because somebody wrecked their vehicle doesn't necessarily make the vehicle to blame....

Sarlacc

Re-read the part about the stuck accelerator...

Bunch of fucking scholars in here.

Majofo

majin ssj eric

Hmmm, yeah if I was a dumbass and wrecked my car a convenient excuse might be to blame the car instead of my own dumbass. Of course to go against the "Toyota builds death machines" mantra around here is to be an ass....

Sarlacc

Who here said Toyota builds death machines? I relayed a story from someone I know who's accelerator got stuck on him. His wife was in the truck at the time and said the same things. He isn't a member on here and his story had nothing to do with this thread. The story came up in a conversation by coincidence. None of it including the crash was anything he had to tell any of us, he nor his wife gained anything by telling us of the crash at all. It was even a recent wreck, it happened prior to the sheriff getting killed.

His explanation as to why it all happened seemed like a different and logical take, so I posted it.

I swear some of you have your heads so far up your asses.

majin ssj eric

So whats your point exactly? If you aren't posting this story as evidence of Toyota's supposed malfeasance, why say anything? You are obviously using it as evidence of some sort of design flaw in their cars and I "have my head up my ass" because I require a little more proof than "some dude told me he had the same thing happened to him"?

I may have ruffled some feathers in this thread but until some mystical stuck throttle situation happens to me, I'll reserve the right to say its all a bunch of BS....

Majofo

Sarlacc

I said pretty clearly why I posted in the first place. Again with the head inserted in the anus.

There are clearly instances of stuck accelerators happening, I havent said it was a widespread problem have I? If I was so concerned I'd be telling my parents to dump both their Lexus'. And of the 5 they have owned over the years, they have had no serious problems, so I'm not terribly concerned.

But it doesnt mean there havent been problems. These are machines.

Why the retarded conspiracy theory? Being the overly prideful Lexus owner?

Me thinks so.

Sarlacc

Yeah and Honda/Acura never had bad trannies...ever....

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

Something we all have to keep in mind here was that the ES350 was a Loaner car...it was a car he was not necessarily familiar with and I'm sure that had A LOT to do with this senseless tragedy.

PortlandRL

Sarlacc....have fun with this one, eric!!

mrmako

A quick synopsis of 6 pages for Sarlacc:

- We know there is an issue with Toyota and Lexus and unintended acceleration in some of their vehicles.

- Most posters on here think Toyota is covering up a bigger issue. Possibly faulty code with the ECU (very plausible, given accounts on the news and an ABC investigative report that talked to people who say it is not a floor mat).

- There is an issue with the floor mat, and there is an easy remedy for this.

- Majin ssj Eric will defend Toyota until his death, because he has never experienced it himself. This means it isn't true. Because we on this board state that they produce death machines, he has been a bit vocal and does not even want to acknwledge that the ECU could.be an issue.

Have fun........